I just looked this up, and in GW2 the gem store allows you to use gems to buy stuff you might want (cosmetics mostly, also storage space, character slots, etc).
100 gems can buy you 17 g 87 s . (g = gold, s= silver, 100 silver = 1 gold)
100 gems costs 28 g 31 s to buy.
100 gems costs $1.25 USD to buy.
1 g therefore is worth $ 0.045 USD in gems.
A lot of things cost like 400 gems (~$5), like costume parts, and then there's other more expensive stuff that costs like 1000gems (~$10-ish).
I spent $25 to buy GW2 when it was on sale in like August, due to a friend giving me the heads-up that he was going to. He has since stopped playing after getting his one character totally finished, which didn't take him long, as usual. I have tapered off a lot in my time spent playing GW2, I just log on to get the daily rewards and do like one Octovine event, then process the loot and go to bed. I have managed to avoid spending any more money on GW2 than the $25 I spent when it was on sale.
A lot of players act like me in this regard, and avoid spening any extra money on the game as much as possible. They complain on GW2 forums that the gold to gem conversion and the gem prices of stuff are not favorable enough for the player and that the game company is making the game Pay to Win, despite the fact that none of the things you can buy in GW2's store has any tangible effect on player combat effectiveness beyond the stuff you could get for free by grinding a little.
So my take-away from this is as follows. People avoid spending money in game cash shops out of a desire to be a smart shopper and get it cheaper, if possible. Then they complain that things are too expensive, or that they "can't" grind for it easily enough and get it for free. Those same people would still avoid those same purchases and make those same complaints if the prices were a little lower, they just are trying to argue and negotiate for a lower price than what is there now, and will not stop trying to haggle like this even if they get what they say they want. As soon as you lower the price to satisfy the guy who's complaining now, the next guy who comes in fresh will tell you the price is too high and ask you to lower it. Since the lowest possible price is "free", and since the items can technically be had for "free" by grinding enough Gold to get it, the price people are comparing everything to, in their heads, is "zero dollars and zero cents". So this complaining will continue until everything is free, or the game company calls the players' bluffs and leaves the prices where they are, despite all the threats and ultimatums about quitting or whatever. So every time someone says "such and such ought to be free, or at least way cheaper" I would ignore them, were I a game developer. You need to look at sales revenues coming in real dollars and try to maximize THAT, not listen to the loudest complainers and give them what they're demanding. The fairest price for anything is the price that makes the game company the most money overall. This means that a lot of people will not buy a lot of stuff because they feel they should personally not have to pay so much, but that's a necessary thing. If you find the "Goldilocks" price, i.e. the one that's just right, you're not actually selling a costume part to everyone that wants one. You're maximizing the amount of money you, the game company, are receiving for your sales efforts, overall, which requires you to turn away some people who would demand the item in question for less than the current asking price, which is something good companies have to do.
I would argue that allowing people to buy gems (or Stars) with gold (or IGC) is counter-productive due to psychology. It causes people to compare two prices in their heads. There's the real-money price of the item they want, which is presumably like $1-5, and then there's the perceived "iron cost" of "I'll just grind a lot and buy it with IGC" which sounds like a real possibility, but in fact most people just don't bother to do that and ultimately end up living without the thingy they want. I think if you offered items for JUST real money (or Stars) and didn't have a way to grind for them for free via the in-game currency route, people would not be comparing "real price" to "free" in their heads and as such would at least know that they paid the same prices, in real-money, as everyone else for the item they want. They might still decide not to buy the thing, but they're not going to feel like a lazy rich sucker for buying stuff they want using real money. The person who doesn't buy the costume piece for real money is afraid they'll run across another player who says "I got that for free, you're an idiot." some day, so they don't buy the thing. If EVERYONE has to buy the thing for real money, or not at all, that problem doesn't exist. That said, I think it's still a good idea to run sales and special limited-time offers, from time to time. The psychology behind that is very sound, interestingly. There, people might refrain from buying a thing because they want to wait for it to go on sale, BUT, they then do actually buy it when it DOES go on sale. With the "grind for it" approach as a constant thing that always exists, that option becomes a dim light at the end of a very long tunnel that few people actually have the patience to actually follow through on. The fact that they COULD grind for the thing but aren't actually going to do so paralyses them into not buying it for real money either, ultimately.
Just a thought.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Is this something you think MwM should do or is it something you would respond to? What I mean is, do you think that a hard separation between real money purchases and IGC purchases is the best way MWM can treat their cash shop or is this the best way you can see yourself using the cash shop?
To answer Brainbot, I don't know. CoT has had this "time or money, your choice" ethos to some extent, and it just dawned on me today the effect that could have on a player's personal level of interest in buying more cash shop stuff. In my case, in GW2, I haven't bought anything yet besides the game itself, and that I got at a discount during a sale. I feel like I likely won't buy stuff either, based on the fact that I COULD grind for it instead, but I want to do that even less, really. But the fact that the thing I might want could be had for free may be preventing me from actually buying it despite the fact that I know I won't actually grind for it. That said, I haven't even looked in the cash shop in that game. I mean, NCSoft killed CoX when they rolled GW2 out, in my opinion to avoid competing with themselves for gamers between the two games, so I really don't want to give them more money just because of that. But I also haven't really seen anything I want in the shop either.
If you make unlocks for doing content a thing that can be gotten fairly easily, like by completing one TF, and not even the hard way, just doing the TF one time, successfully, I think allowing people to buy the costume item that gets unlocked by that is pretty pointless, because the VAST majority of people are going to do the TF just to unlock the item, even if they have to do it on every toon separately, even if they don't particularly care about the costume piece. I mean, its a thing to do, people want to get that unlock, so they do it. I did the respec TF on every toon I had in order to get the respecs, even on toons that had many freeespecs coming that I hadn't used yet. If doing a thing once can get you the unlock, people will do it once to get the unlock. It drives people to do content, but not to buy costume pieces, I feel
For "harder to get" stuff, like something you have to complete a whole Accolade worth of badges etc to get, you might get some more interest in buying the thing, but I think largely people will avoid spending the money and either make a point of doing the Accolade stuff to get the thing or not bother and not pay for the thing either.
So like, whether you make the content unlock too easy or too hard, you're competing against yourself in a way that basically stops people from buying the thing. If you had stuff that you ONLY offered for money, you'd probably get way more actual buyers, I feel.
In CoX, there were power sets and costumes I paid for, despite the fact that I was paying a sub for VIP and those items didn't come with that. Those things, the ones I paid for, were not unlockable via spending INF. If they had been, I would have done that, and had INF to spare regardless, probably. If the INF cost were too high, I'd likely not have bought the thing anyway, figuring I'd either just live without until I can scrape together the INF, or else just live without it period.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I've never been against the idea of the CoT cash store selling things that you could otherwise earn by playing the game (i.e. your "time or money, your choice" scenario). But to be honest I would probably prefer that they kept that kind of thing down to a relative minimum, or at least a relative minority of the total.
For example let's hypothetically say CoT has 25 trials and (again hypothetically) let's say the in-game reward for each of those trials includes some kind of unique costume item for each trial. I probably wouldn't mind if the cash store sold a few of those costume items, especially if A) the item sold was similar but not 100% identical to the one you'd get in the trial or B) it's been like a year or two since that trial launched in the game. But the idea that you could easily buy ALL 25 costume items related to ALL 25 trials instantaneously just seems way too overboard. Sure I suppose one could make the case that it ought to be allowable for a player to "pretend" they've played the game by taking a minute to spend several hundred dollars in the cash store but somehow that just doesn't seem copacetic. *shrugs*
For what it's worth CoH tended to limit what it sold in its cash store to things that were no longer available any other way (like the original pre-order items that enjoyed a several year period of exclusivity before they became available in the store). I'd frankly like to see CoT stick to that type of thing instead of offering a whole boat-load of the EXACT same things you could earn via playing the game. Again I'm not strictly against the "time or money, your choice" concept - I'm just suggesting it be used sparingly if for no other reason than to encourage people to actually play the game.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I'm asked because you presented your original thought as more of a 'people think this way' yet it very much read more like a personal opinion. The second post of yours deals more on a personal level.
Unless you say otherwise, it looks like your thoughts are how you personally respond to a cash shop. For the record, it is not the way I respond to a cash shop.
But I am not going to try and change your mind, I am just going to give you some things to consider.
First, as far as I know (if I am wrong please correct me because it is the basis for my opinion), the cash shop in CoT will include things you can both earn as a reward for normal gameplay and things that are exclusively on the cash shop. When the devs speak about 'time or money, your choice', they are talking about how they plan to have a way for players to earn cash shop currency (Stars) in the game.
As of right now they have not definitively said how we will earn those Stars or how they will be measured in the time vs cash concept. Without knowing that, it is very hard to make a value judgement for anything that is store exclusive. It could take anywhere between 5 minutes or 5 weeks to earn enough Stars through game play to get that one cape you really want that is only available in the store. On the other hand the real money cost for the cape could be between 50 cents and 5 dollars. It's unlikely but still possible that it could take you 5 weeks of game play to earn something you could buy for 50 cents. It's a complete unknown and hard to discuss without making assumptions that are probably wrong.
I do agree that items you can unlock directly in game are a much less desirable option for the cash shop. If that one cape was not store exclusive and you could unlock it by running a mission once then even 1 cent real money could be seen as too much. But it is important to remember two things. People are impatient and once the item is designed there is almost no additional cost to making copies. You and I might not buy the cape because we don't feel it is worth it but someone impatient might buy it. What I am saying is, just putting it on the store doesn't cost anything really so anytime MWM do sell it they earn and if it never sells they don't lose anything.
There is also the nature of in game unlockables to consider. In most cases unlockables in a game are on a character to character basis. While it is possible for a store to offer account wide unlocking as an incentive for purchase. For example, in CoH we all had our favorite costume parts that we used on more than one character, for me it was the work boots. If those work boots were unlockable at the character level through gameplay but I could spend one lump sum and always have them available the store option becomes more attractive.
Another thing to think about is bundles. You may be less inclined to buy one costume part that can be unlocked through game play but for a one time cost you could get all of them on all characters.
There is also the idea of how these things get unlocked in the game. I absolutely hated the redside respec trial (I didn't really like the blueside one much either but not as much as the red) and refused to do it to the point that if I was unhappy with a build I would delete and just started over. At the time there wasn't a cash store option and veteran rewards had not been implemented, but if there was a cash store respec it might have been something I would have bought. What I am saying is if there is something you want that can only be unlocked in a way that you simply do not enjoy You might look at the cash shop differently. It could be massive amounts of farming, a mission arc you hate, a trial you don't enjoy or even be unlocked only through PvP.
There is more but I think you get the idea. I don't expect any of this to change your opinion of how you respond to a cash shop but I hope you have either considered these things before or will now consider them before making up your mind. Even if they don't apply to you at all I hope you can see how the inclusion of in game unlockables in the store can be good for the game from other points of view.
@Radiac, a few points I see here as "perceptually wrong".
If one can exchange IGC for Premium Coins (and vice versa) on a player driven market then the game as a whole won't loose any income since [b]someone[/b] has to pay for those Premium Coins to be available for use. Just because I (me personally) doesn't directly pay anything as all (beyond initial purchase price) [b]does not[/b] mean that the game is loosing money when I make purchases in the cash shop.
Not everyone has the patience to grind for it, especially if they have a decent (or more) amount of "spare money". Some people will even pay for things so to guaranty that it is available at initial character creation.
"Cool" is such a subjective area that it's not really relevant on the grand scale.
Good points, all. I do not pretend to think that all people would spend their money as I would, but then I can't really get into the heads of those other people to predict how they'll react either. In the end, I can only use my own feelings about this as a guide.
As for blacke4dawn's point, I totally agree that if Stars can ONLY be created by someone somewhere purchasing them for real money, that's good. In GW2, I believe the cash shop will allow you to exchange Gold for Gems through them directly, which is a different story. That practice does sink gold, so it's performing a needed service in the game overall, but it also creates gems ex nihilo, which undercuts the real money cost of gems.
And even if not all players think like I do on this, I still contend that a lot of players will have the psychological issue I'm struggling with. In order to pull the trigger on a purchase, I have to think "now is the right time to buy this thing". When there's the POSSIBILITY, just the possibility, that I MIGHT eventually be able to get the thing for free through IGC grinding, I tend to think "nah, I'll wait and see, maybe I can get it with IGC after a while" and despite the fact that that IGC never actually get's spent on that thing, the possibility is always there that it could, so I still don't think it's a good time to buy, like ever, so I don't buy, like ever.
Edit: And not for nothing, demographically I fit the description of a person who would buy stuff in game cash shops. I'm single with no kids and have plenty of time and disposable income for a game like this. I could, and most likely will, pay for the Cadillac subscription option, if it looks good. I just feel the resistance of my inner "thrifty bargain shopper" kick in whenever I think about buying something with real money that I could unlock or grind for IGC to buy. And I don't consider myself to be a cheapskate, nor do my friends tell me I'm cheap. I feel like if this is a roadblock for me, it must be total deal-breaker for the real cheapskates of the world.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
The big problem with making the cash shop content exclusive to the cash shop by not providing in-game unlocks nor a way to convert IGC to premium currency is that it will will create a wall between those who can spend money (beyond initial purchase) and those who can't. It also has the potential to create a fairly finely tiered structure among the players depending on how much they've "purchased". According to the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXA559KNopI]Extra Credits that is a big NO NO[/url]. If the only way to gain premium currency is to buy it them selves then they are more likely to quit the game than they are to pay up.
Personally I think you are way way waaaay overthinking this Radiac. Being able to trade between IGC and Premium currency among players will most likely increase total revenue since more people will be buying in the cash shop, because they can actually get their hands on that premium currency even if they can't actually spare any of their own money. And people who are willing to spend more money than they really need to have a way to do so. I just can't see how being able to trade premium currency between players will have an overall negative impact on the games revenue, but maybe that is just my personality talking since I'm more on the impatient side and would thus likely pay instead of grind.
The only people who would be relevant here would be those who stick to unlocks only, and I just don't think that group will be big enough to make a significant "dent" in their long term revenue.
I think, in response to blacke4dawn, that you yourself hit on the answer, which is to force all Stars created to be created by real money being spent in the first place, either by subscribers getting a bunch of Stars every month for their sub money, or by people buying them a la carte. That way, the subscribers like me can and will sell whatever excess Stars we might have lying around for IGC on the auction house to non-subs who want to grind for stuff. The equilibrium state that that system would have to create would be one where some amount of real money is spent on every Star purchase made, regardless of what happens inbetween or who is spending the Stars. It also allows a big-speder type subscription guy like me to spread the fun and sell Stars to non-subbers or whomever and make our relationship symbiotic.
Assuming some amount of IGC inflation, the auction house price of Stars (in IGC) will increase over time, I would expect. Not that that's a bad thing or a deal breaker, just an expectation.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
If you mean the majority when you say 'a lot of players' then I don't agree at all. The cash shop in mobile games, games like CS:GO or GTAV online and too many to name here MMO's all have cash shops that follow a 'time or money' philosophy and they do a fairly good trade. I suspect the fact those other games do so well with that market strategy was part of the reason MWM decided to go that route.
To restate something:
If someone unlocks an item through play, it will be unlocked along with an associated badge for the character. If the item is also for sale in the cash shop, it will *not* come with the associated badge. So EVEN IF someone does spend money to replicate the maximum potential costume pieces from running every TF, they *still* will not be able to pretend that they played to get it.
Badges serve several purposes for us.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
If you guys have made the decision that unique costume items that you get as a reward for doing a specific trial/mission will ALWAYS be paired to a badge for that same trial/mission then that's obviously your decision good or bad. To be totally clear about this it actually wouldn't BOTHER me if all these unique costume items (without their associated badges) were available in the cash store. All I'm saying is it would just seem semi-silly to me to do that with ALL of them. I wouldn't be angry - I'd just think that was a weird way to handle things like this. *shrugs*
Ultimately I don't care if someone wants to "pretend" they've played the game or not because if they don't want to spend the time they'll have to (likely) spend several hundred dollars to buy everything and that only ends up benefiting ME indirectly (by having more money go to a game I enjoy). To me it just seems weird that you've decided to ALWAYS pair a badge to a costume item. That kind of lock-step just seems uninspired and cookie-cutter-ish. I mean are you ever going to have situations where you could get a badge WITHOUT a costume item or a costume item WITHOUT a badge? Why does one ALWAYS have to go with the other?
I realize you are in a tough place trying to keep everyone "happy" with all this. But I'll be the first to let you know that I'm someone who does not need every costume item in the game to be either in the costume creator or the cash store. I'm perfectly willing to have some costume items (even if it's only like 2 or 3 individual items) that you can ONLY get as a reward for playing the game. Frankly the implication on your part that there won't be ANY special costume items like that seems sad to me. The key to keep people from whining about this is you have BASIC versions of all items available for free or the cash store then you create 2 or 3 UBER-SPECIAL versions that can only be had via trial/mission. That way people could have the basic version whenever they want and then get the uber-special one once the have the opportunity. You won't have to waste time making "two versions of every costume item in the game" as has been suggested by others - you'd only have to make a handful of extra special things as unique trial/mission rewards. This was the original problem with the [url=https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Roman_Costume_Set]Imperious Task Force Roman armor[/url] in CoH - there was no "basic" version of that and people had to wait until level 35 before they could have ANY version of Roman armor.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Radiac, in GW2 all of the Gems are generated through real world money transactions. The gold to gems price can vary. All gems are listed on the auction house for whatever price the owner thinks they are worth and Anet handles the sale as if they were any other in game junk.
I think that some of your idea's on this matter are logical but as BB pointed out, not everyone abides by the same logic. I've seen various write-ups that break down the demographics. There are some people who spend a little, some who will rarely spend anything, and some others that will spend a lot. You fall into the category which is the largest those who rarely spend anything. There's nothing wrong with that. However, MWM goal will be to convert you to another demographic. With regards to COT I will probably find myself to be a "Whale" or someone who spends a lot. Not because that is my personality but because I'll probably opt for a subscription and that will be all I spend.
I don't agree that people believe that they can "pay the iron price" (I like the reference, ironic that the iron price is counted in gold) for gemstore items in GW2. I don't know anyone that can pull in that kind of money. I've been playing for 3 years (nearly 4) and I simply don't have the gold to do a worthwhile conversion. I can save more change in a month than I can earn gold in game. It's not the case for everyone but, I'd say most people don't consider that to be an option that is playing a heavy factor in their gem store purchase considerations. That said, I have used it. I was short 40 gems to cover the rest of the cost of a costume piece for which I already had 200 or 300gems. It was not unreasonable for a small quantity of gems.
That's my couple of gems or stars or whatever that I have on the topic. right wrong or otherwise.
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I suppose there are some players out there who, regardless of the game they are playing, are always "whales" or always "freebies". Those people end up spending roughly the same amount of money on each and every game they play.
But I suspect most people out there actually VARY the amount they spend on any one specific game based mostly on how much they actually like the game or not. I've tried/played maybe a dozen MMOs over the years and I can definitely say that for a few of them I barely paid an extra nickel beyond the bare minimum I needed to play and others I paid extra for almost every single cash store thing the given game ever offered. In effect I've been both a whale AND a diehard "free-to-player" depending on the specific game.
So like any other game CoT will have players that run the spectrum between being whales and playing 100% free. You can't really assume that ALL CoT players are going to be one kind or another.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Agreed. This is my personal experience as well. Admittedly, I'm not much of a cash store spender in games - I'm actually rather miserly in that regard. That said CoH has been - by FAR - my biggest gaming expense for the simple fact that it was "worth it" to me for a variety of reasons, from social links in game to the variety of playstyles offered by the different types of powers.
I always thought the two most profitable things a MMO can sell for real money was cosmetic items and game improvements.
When I look at games like Neverwinter, GTAV, STO and so on much of the store is devoted to just those two things. Cosmetic items like non-combat pets, mounts/ships, weapon skins, costumes, hair styles, ect.
Heck there is an entire market in CS:GO for weapon skins that is just insane. Take a look here:
http://read.navi-gaming.com/en/team_news/Rarest_and_expensive_knives
And these weapon skins degrade.
That really makes me think that quite a few people place a pretty high value on cosmetics and that CoT should take advantage of that considering the low cost of creating cosmetics.
Fair points. I actually spent a lot more money on CoX than I am now on GW2. That's probably because GW2 never tried to charge me a sub at all, and you don't need one to do the popular content, like Octovine raids and Tequatl, etc. I paid for Incarnate in CoX and for superpacks, just because they were there and I wanted to support the game at that point. And I paid for a few costumes and maybe a power set or two (I know I had Demon Summoning and the Laser Rifle, and I think Time Manipulation was free, I don't remember anymore).
So I probably don't spend money on GW2 because A) I'm not as into it as I was CoX, B) I still hate NCSoft, and C) there's no sub option nor any premium content to pay a sub for.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
No other game except CoX has ever inspired me to drop one single dime past purchasing the software if it did not have a free play model. Strange to me that in CoX I was a whale. I guess I just really enjoyed the game and the community. I also felt that the the prices were not that high for most things that I felt compelled to buy and I always wanted to support the game as I enjoyed it so much. For me as far as costume pieces go I would never buy any unless it was account wide. But things like respec tokens I would buy for individual toons. So, I guess what I am trying to say is that, if I enjoy CoT as much as CoH I will spend lots of extra money. If it doesn't have the same type of appeal to me as CoX, then not only will I not spend anything on it but I simply won't think it is worth my time to play either. I understand that in order for it to succeed it must appeal to as wide a group as possible, if it succeeds then I look forward to spending a lot of time getting to know you all.
I reserve the right to have an opinion. You reserve the right to not agree.
Like many of you, for me, it depends on the game.
I didn't have any problem spending a little extra beyond my subscription in CoX but most other games haven't really given me any real reason to.
The only exception has been STO. I took a chance and popped for a lifetime sub during beta. I didn't spend another dime until the lifetime sub price divided over the months playing averaged to less than the 500 zen I get each month. Since they are effectively paying me to play, I don't have any real objection to spending a few dollars every now and then.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
MWM has effectively said that anything non-consumable in the cash store will be account wide unlock. For non-consumables it's not so clear but I guess that depending a little on how and what is purchased it might be used directly, saved for later and/or "claimed" by any toon on the account.