In another thread, I mentioned how CoT adding a large city could have changed the time-line. A quick search on Youtube yielded someone who can explain it better than me (no surprise).
He focuses on DC, because while Marvel has some additional places, they tend to be isolationist countries (Latveria, Wakanda) or just don't have much power (Sokovia).
DC, on the other hand, as a least half a dozen extremely large cities added to the USA alone.
[youtube]yvNSeUHrKy8[/youtube]
So just how different is Titanverse? Are there lots of additional cities added, or only a few? Is TC going to have its own fictional list of presidents or just copy the real world?
I found an old post that said 911 never happened in Titanverse. What else is different?
One way I could think of to keep pop culture/politics similar is to have another large city have been destroyed to compensate for the added city.
But, then again, using fictional bands and politicians and brands would give the writers more room to maneuver and run less risk of making super-fans mad or partisans mad.
I don't think you need to have a "zero sum mindset" in order to get an "alternate Earth" setting to work thematically. For example I don't think you need to destroy an existing city on Earth in order to "explain" a new one like Titan City.
It all depends on how much different the Devs of CoT want to make their version of the world be that much "different" from the real one we live in. Obviously the key difference in MWM's version of things is that there are people running around with superpowers. But regardless of how much background lore the Devs create to flesh-out their version of the world that should never limit or restrict anything players want to create to "explain" their own characters. Sure I might borrow some of the lore MWM cooks up to base my own character concepts on but if I come up with a new character idea that doesn't quite "fit in" with what the MWM folks have established [b]MY[/b] ideas are always going to take precedent.
Stories about alternate histories are always fascinating to me. One of the better recent ones has been the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_in_the_High_Castle_%28TV_series%29]TV adaption of Phillip K. Dick's [i]The Man in the High Castle[/i][/url]. If you haven't seen/read it it's basically a story about what it might have been like if the Axis Powers had won WWII and had divided the USA between the German and Japanese empires. Obviously many of the details/characters are different in that alternate history but it's a good example of how a story can remain internally consistent within the bounds of the alternate reality the author has created.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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I'm curious. Are you asking this as a purely academic pursuit or do you thing the answer to this will have a meaningful impact of game?
Curiosity, mostly, but it would have impact on the game's story (understatement).
As the video illustrated, entire political movements could be different if the change is drastic enough. Things we consider staples in today's entertainment or politics could be completely the opposite. Obviously this could affect character histories dramatically. If it's just one city added, that's not as likely, but if it's like DC with a half dozen new metropolis-sized cities added to the US alone, that could change everything.
While I'm not likely to reference a specific politician in a character background, pop culture references and references to large-scale political stuff is possible. More importantly, knowing what other fictional places are added allows me to make characters from those places, which is something I'd much prefer to do than make up my own place. If I'm playing in the Forgotten Realms, I came to the table with a character from Star City, it would probably not work out so well. And it's not just locations. Let's say I want to make a character's background include fighting in Operation Iraqi Freedom, but in CT universe, Bush was never president, and the Iraq war never happened. That would make my character seem like a crazy person remembering a fictional war.
Ok, I understand now.
The video is hardcore nerd 'splaining of hypothetical/theoretical differences between known reality and a work of fictions setting/history. Simply assuming a setting is flawed based on this type of extreme dissection of the premise is not something I agree with. It's a fun to play this kind of 'what if' game with the setting/history but fiction does not work that way. In fiction the audience is asked to accept a premise and the audience chooses to do so or not. This premise is comprised of what the author decides is relevant to the story. If you need to know about a difference between the real world and the fictional one you will be told in the story. Everything else is inconsequential to the story and left up to the reader.
The same is true in RPG settings, you will be told what the differences are between reality and the fictional world are and the rest isn't important. The fact that an RPG is by it's nature a symbiotic type of storytelling and involves an evolving story progression means that you will learn new differences as the story is told. I don't think it is possible for the author of the games setting to give you all the information you desire at this time but I am sure they will offer some tidbits that can be expanded upon later.
In the end, your character background is only relevant to you and those you RP with. So it's best that you make determinations with that group as to any changes from our reality that the game does not specifically mention. If you do not have a regular group and want to make sure you can RP with most anyone then only concern yourself with the changes that have be laid out in the games lore.
To expand on what Brainbot is saying here just because MWM might be creating their own version of an "alternate Earth" with CoT it's not really up to them to have to come up with every single possible "alternate detail" to fill in all the gaps. It wouldn't even be their responsibility to do that even if MWM was basing this game on an entirely different fictional planet with no connection to Earth at all. As Brainbot goes on to say that's pretty much impossible for any RPG designer regardless.
So for example you mentioned the idea of whether you could have a character who was involved in Operation Iraqi Freedom if you're not sure whether something called "Operation Iraqi Freedom" even happened in MWM's version of Earth history. The way I would handle that (or any "real world" thing that may be different in a game) is I'd do my best to study up on any/all game lore provided to see if the MWM Devs have specifically mentioned anything about the event in question. If you don't end up with a definitive answer to that then there's absolutely no reason why you couldn't [b]SHARE[/b] in the creative process by dreaming up your own lore for the game. If as you mentioned the MWM folks have decided 9-11 never happened in their world then who's to say there wasn't some other event that might have led to another Mid-east conflict that you could simply invent for your character? Remember just because MWM may have decided to change things for their version of Earth doesn't mean you can't also make up your own stuff for that same alternate Earth.
At best the lore/background of any game can serve as a "common denominator" for RP purposes but it should never be an excuse for why you can't create your [b]OWN[/b] lore for your [b]OWN[/b] purposes. Just because the MWM Devs didn't mention anything about an alternate version of X, Y or Z doesn't mean you're not allowed to fill in those gaps for yourself.
So far this one sentence is probably the best summary response to the entire concern/premise of this thread.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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This. We have defined only those aspects of the setting that are strictly relevant to the portion of game world we are writing within right now. We have not finalized the entirety of the game world, though we do have a large number of plans sketched out. We will finalize them only when the relevant information is required. This provides us with the flexibility required to provide you with the most logical, reasonable, and effective canvas within which you can RP without built-in contradictions. If we define too much, then we have to retcon, and no one likes doing that (it's too much work!).
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Conundrum of Furballs
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Well frankly if you ever managed to "define" too much you would leave relatively little room for people to RP their own concepts. I like the game lore you've come up with so far but I don't want to play YOUR characters... I'd rather play my OWN characters. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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Makes sense.
I'm one of those people who over-thinks fictional settings.
I was bothered enough by the Netflix Marvel series referencing Obama while Ellis was clearly in office in the MCU, that I went and looked up canon. Turns out Obama had one term, then Ellis. But, now Luke Cage s2 has referenced Trump, specifically rhetoric he didn't use until he was running for office. But if Ellis beat Obama, then how did Trump run against Ellis? Are there three prominent parties in the MCU capable of winning presidency? These are the questions that don't really matter, but that I ask anyway.
One could reference Anthem's bio, for 'war' details...
Be Well!
Fireheart
That's the reason I quit watching Supergirl! Only Supergirl made it much more obvious. Big deal about an illegal alien (literally an alien at that) is the PotUS and everyone on the show is "I love you! You're such a great president!" When she's showed up. Then they jumped to anti-Trump speeches and anti-Trump current news event, which just didn't make sense in the show's premise.
They're obviously not our world/universe with lots of changes until it's time to make a speech. :p
Okay, that's bad. That's messing up the continuity within a single show. That's way worse than having it not match perfectly between TV and movies.
A little sad, considering AoS was able to get Ellis as President.
I wasn't trying to imply that over thinking the setting was a bad thing. I was simply trying to point out the relevance of that over thinking is personal and not universal and how fiction requires a level of acceptance from it's audience to succeed.
Concerning acceptance of the stories premise basically means what you are willing to go along with. You may consider the President a major flaw in the MCU story but for me I am willing to accept the use of President Ellis in Ironman 3, as well as references in other MCU properties. I know that it is not practical and probably not possible to use the real President Obama or an even an impersonator to tell the story they were telling. As the character of Ellis is not clearly defined in personality, motives or goals I can easily ignore minor inconsistencies and enjoy the story I am being told. You may require, as it seems you do, more reconciliation to accept the character. Neither is right or wrong as it boils down to what we consider important in our fiction.
To further expand on that. Fiction's main purpose is to present a narrative. Certain fiction requires more work on defining the fictional world, alternate history stories and fantasy to name just two. But to present their narrative they don't need to explain every aspect of those fictional worlds. They just need to present the important 'beats' of them.
An example would be the Watchmen comic. The narrative that was being explored was one that deconstructs the superhero mythos. To that end Moore only concerned himself with aspects of an alternate history that would further his narrative. Nixon sending in Dr, Manhattan to end the Viet conflict, abolishing term limits and extending his presidency, the continuation of the cold war and so on. Moore doesn't concern himself with explaining how Nixon came to be president, or how the Viet conflict started. He just focuses on the individual incidents and not how they transpired because in his narrative the how is of far less importance than their impact on the story.
We can dissect the undefined aspects of the narrative (such as how the fictional world gets to the relevant points) but it does not change the key plot points that are defined.
So you as a member of the audience either accept the story as it is told or you don't. This is different than enjoying the story or not but it does have some crossover. By this I mean, your enjoyment of a work a fiction is not so much a choice as it is an involuntary response. Much like how you either like the taste of peanut butter or you don't (and if you don't I will fight you). But you have much more autonomy in accepting the premise of that fiction. You can, to an extent, choose to accept a premise by finding a way to reconcile flaws you may perceive in the work. Much like how you may dislike peanut butter straight from the jar but still enjoy it when coupled with chocolate.
As long as certain conditions are met you can find a way to accept the aspects you do not agree with. It is a core aspect of the human condition, finding a way to accept something we are not happy with. You may never like that thing (in this case a particular story) but you can, as long as you can find a way to reconcile your objections to it, find a way to live with it.
The crossover between enjoyment and acceptance is how much reconciliation you can make before it infringes upon enjoyment. Basically it's an imaginary line that indicates when a story asks you to accept a plot point that you find unable/unwilling to reconcile.
An example might be the Snakes on a Plane movie. I am just unable to accept the aggressive nature of the snakes in that movie. I know others can just accept the movie for what it is but I am not able to so I just don't enjoy it. It crosses my imaginary line.
I apologize, that went a bit off topic so I will leave it at that.
Well we have at least two things going for us in CoT's case:
1) The story/lore/background of CoT is only being developed by one group of creatives for a single game. We won't have to worry about canon having to sync up between multiple projects.
2) I get the feeling that if the folks at MWM ever "messed up" something equivalent to citing different presidents in two different story arcs that they would be willing to accept that "constructive criticism" and change the text of their stories to correct those problems. At least a MMO can be dynamically updated unlike a TV show or movie that's basically "set in stone" once it's released.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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I am a voracious reader and occasional writer of fiction (not published), and I’ve studied the process of creating fictional worlds and premises. What is essential to fiction is what is often referred to as the “willful suspension of disbelief”. The reader knows that what they are reading is not true (being fiction) but accepts that this fictional world exists within its own reality.
The burden of the author is to establish internally consistent rules and to present them in ways and at times that work for the narrative of the story. If your premise is that the world is at a medieval level of technology and magic is real, then you should establish that early in the story through exposition. If you then later introduce automobiles and firearms with no other explanation then it makes it more difficult for the reader to maintain that suspension of disbelief, you lose immersion, and it becomes difficult to understand or just enjoy the story.
That’s why continuity is important in stories. Sometimes it gets to the level of nit-picking when small details contradict previously-established facts about the story world, but when something crucial to the story causes a contradiction then it can ruin a story. You end up with plot holes and confusion, and you lose your audience.
Keeping things consistent is important for an author. And that’s also why sometimes it’s wiser to let things in a story be ambiguous or unexplained, if those details aren’t important, because you run less of a risk of contradicting yourself. That’s why I like that MWM isn’t giving more detail than necessary about the world outside of Titan City.
As a published author I couldn't agree more with your assessment. I am by no standard a great writer, it's purely a fun hobby for me and definitely not my day job, but I have had to delete entire chapters in my proofreading because it no longer fit with the rest of the book after it. It is difficult finding that 'sweet spot' of detail and ambiguity that allows the reader to fully understand what is going on while also giving them enough room to let their imaginations do with it what they will. That is just my opinion, however. I personally think the greatest books are those where reading takes 2nd place behind watching the story play out like a movie in your mind. Granted, I only read fantasy/adventure novels (LOTR, The Legend of Drizzt series, etc) and those are easier to play out in your mind like a movie than non-fiction.
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Heh DC I like how you list JRR Tolkien and R. A. Salvatore together.
I don’t disagree, I’m also a fan of both. :)
Most supers universes assume that our modern world could exist in some recognizable form despite numerous overtly fantastic elements. It's an absurd assumption, of course, but it allows stories to tap into a literal world of historical, cultural, and geographic references with which the audience may reasonably be familiar.
Nothing prevents one from questioning the assumption, but that's like asking, "What would High Fantasy be like without magic?"
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
I personally like the Atlas Parallel (or Astraverse?) from the Wearing the Cape series, which is generally believed by its inhabitants to have had no fantastic elements (unless you count their individual religious beliefs) until The Event ten years before the first book. So they generally believe that, for example, the young woman who claims to be Empress Ozma of Oz is somewhat less than sane, but that doesn't change the fact that her magic works...
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
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On a definition level, not High Fantasy. It'd be considered Low or Contemporary fantasy based on the overall narrative.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
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High fantasy without magic?
I think they call that "nanotech."
Then it becomes Sci-fi or Science Fantasy.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
That sounds wise to me. Don't define more than you have to before you have to, so as not to unnecessarily and prematurely paint yourself into a corner.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Just don’t call them midichlorians.
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CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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lol
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
Pfft, I was just making fun of how some writers use the word.
Want to completely break every last law of physics, don't have any explanation for how any of it happens, but don't want to call it magic? Nanotech to the rescue!