Experience

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Scipio
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Experience

Clearly each kill should grant XP and each mission should grant XP but I would like to see some way of granting XP based on your involvement in the mission.

Lets say Im running in a group of 3 people in a short story arc and when we go into the building to recover the super important computer piece, one guy just AFKs the whole time. He really shouldn't get as much, if any XP for
that portion of the mission.

Maybe just have it to where the objectives have a range on them, like you have to be within xx yards of the objective being completed to get the XP.

But then again, as Im going for the objective, the 3rd guy is clearing the building, which is important so he should get the XP for that objective as well.

Therefore they make it where you have to a certain distance from the door instead of being near the objective, like an XP nullifier field within 10 yards of the entrance or something....I kinda argued with myself already....any input is appreciated. :)

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Although "door sitting" was a

Although "door sitting" was a problem in CoX, I have been the "follower" where I was just following the main team. Sure I had to keep up with them, but I was not actually doing *anything* to help out.

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This is one of those problems

This is one of those problems that I don't think has a good solution that everyone (or even most people) would want. For every person who would be really annoyed at the "door sitting" problem, there is a person with 2 accounts or a RL friend or whatever that want's to be able to PL a toon once in a while this way.

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Scipio
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PLing isn't really something

PLing isn't really something we should be worried about accommodating though is it?

Im not saying its wrong or evil but would you really rather be able to PL or would you rather force people to PLAY for their XP?

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enjoy your niche. Don't be a whore.

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I've advocated for DPS not to

I've advocated for DPS not to be the only metric.

As well as Damage points measured in DPS I've advocated that other roles be weighted with measurable metrics.

MPS = Mez Points
HPS = Heal Points
TPS = Threat Points
BPS = Buff Points (and -BPS means debuff points).

This helps measure all the roles efficacy in combat.

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JayBezz
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I've advocated for DPS not to

I've advocated for DPS not to be the only metric.

As well as Damage points measured in DPS I've advocated that other roles be weighted with measurable metrics.

MPS = Mez Points
HPS = Heal Points
TPS = Threat Points
BPS = Buff Points (and -BPS means debuff points).

This helps measure all the roles efficacy in combat.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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Scipio wrote:
Scipio wrote:

PLing isn't really something we should be worried about accommodating though is it?
Im not saying its wrong or evil but would you really rather be able to PL or would you rather force people to PLAY for their XP?

I don't think the game ought to go out of it's way to "acommodate" PLing or make overtly easy to do. On the other hand we all know it's going to happen regardless of any "door sitting" restrictions they try to come up with. Those people who want to do it will do it no matter how "hard" the game makes it to do it.

So in the long run I'd rather the Devs strike a balance between doing what it can to make PLing "relatively unattractive" while at the same time not make things so annoying that their attempts to curtail PLing actually bothers average "innocent" players with cumbersome rules or hurdles.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Also, how many people loved

Also, how many people loved the grind to 50 until it was their 5th time doing it and then it was boring and tedious and we just wanted to get our 50 and run the end content stuff. I had so many 50's that, yeah, I got sick of grinding each one to 50. So I built a Fire Tank and traded PL's for my characters using Red's Fire Farm Cave Map. Unless CoT gives us an option to automatically create a level 50 character once we've already established that we've obtained a level 50 character through proper grinding and leveling, I'm gonna try to find a way to PL some of my characters to 50.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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CoH was not hard to obtain 50

CoH was not hard to obtain 50 without PLing. While maybe not as quick as some PLing, all one had to do was Sewer Run then Task Force it to 50 to get to 50 quick.

As for CoT, people will find the best way to level their characters through PLing in Beta and start it right up on Live. Whatever the quickest way to get XP with minimum amount of work, will be considered PLing. There's no getting around it.

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

Unless CoT gives us an option to automatically create a level 50 character once we've already established that we've obtained a level 50 character through proper grinding and leveling, I'm gonna try to find a way to PL some of my characters to 50.

Brand X wrote:

Whatever the quickest way to get XP with minimum amount of work, will be considered PLing. There's no getting around it.

Agreed: There will be a fastest way to PL regardless of what the Devs do. Period.

So to my mind the Devs' only responsiblity as far as trying to "regulate" it in-game is to eliminate any methods that would allow it to happen effectively instantly with no effort/risk on the part of the players involved. If you can eventually figure out a way to PL a character to level 50 in like 18-24 hours of constant playing (like they used to be able to do in CoH) then more power to you. But if you figure out a way to PL a character to 50 in say like 5 minutes then that's when the Devs should step in.

Of course if MWM eventually offers a way for people to buy (via microtransaction) an instant level 50 token that'll be up to the Devs. But that method will likely have a significant cost to justify the benefit.

Bottomline there's nothing wrong with PLing as long as players pay for it via non-trivial costs or efforts.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

Also, how many people loved the grind to 50 until it was their 5th time doing it and then it was boring and tedious and we just wanted to get our 50 and run the end content stuff. I had so many 50's that, yeah, I got sick of grinding each one to 50. So I built a Fire Tank and traded PL's for my characters using Red's Fire Farm Cave Map. Unless CoT gives us an option to automatically create a level 50 character once we've already established that we've obtained a level 50 character through proper grinding and leveling, I'm gonna try to find a way to PL some of my characters to 50.

You're definitely not alone here; I've heard many people in CoX and other MMOs express this opinion. But I've never understood it. For me, the stuff available to do at lvl 50 is either merely equal or possibly even inferior to the content for lower levels, mainly because there is very little progression at 50. Maybe a tweak of a stat or bit of gear, or in CoX there were eventually Incarnate powers to earn, but nothing like the acquisition of new powers on the journey to max.

However, since so many people have said what you have said, there must be something about max-lvl content that appeals to a lot of players more than the rest of the content. Can you explain to me what that is?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I rather liked the suggestion

I rather liked the suggestion of "Proximity sidekicking" that someone made on another thread. Where you have to be within a certain (relatively close) distance to keep your SK level. Why not do that with XP as well? Sure, you could still use a "follow" type command, but at least you have to pay attention, both as leader and follower.

Failing some built-in mechanic, if you don't like "door-sitters", kick 'em. There were a few times when friends were trying to "help" me level early on by telling me to "just stay here, it'll be faster without you and you'll get plenty of XP." I did it, because they honestly thought they were doing me a favor. But it wasn't any fun. Not why I signed up, y'know?

Really though, it is WE who will build the culture of the game going forward. We talk a lot about "the Community" in these forums. The Devs can slant things a bit, but if we make it proper etiquette to ASK the team: "Hey, can I bring a DS friend along?" Or post when we are recruiting "No DS please" or "DS welcome" kinda thing. That actually goes a long way.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

oOStaticOo wrote:
Also, how many people loved the grind to 50 until it was their 5th time doing it and then it was boring and tedious and we just wanted to get our 50 and run the end content stuff. I had so many 50's that, yeah, I got sick of grinding each one to 50. So I built a Fire Tank and traded PL's for my characters using Red's Fire Farm Cave Map. Unless CoT gives us an option to automatically create a level 50 character once we've already established that we've obtained a level 50 character through proper grinding and leveling, I'm gonna try to find a way to PL some of my characters to 50.

You're definitely not alone here; I've heard many people in CoX and other MMOs express this opinion. But I've never understood it. For me, the stuff available to do at lvl 50 is either merely equal or possibly even inferior to the content for lower levels, mainly because there is very little progression at 50. Maybe a tweak of a stat or bit of gear, or in CoX there were eventually Incarnate powers to earn, but nothing like the acquisition of new powers on the journey to max.
However, since so many people have said what you have said, there must be something about max-lvl content that appeals to a lot of players more than the rest of the content. Can you explain to me what that is?

For me, and I'm not trying to speak for anybody else, it's having all of my powers, skills, etc. and having them enhanced and being able to take on the most difficult enemies, quests, or raids/TF's. Not feeling gimped and restricted by not having enough powers or even having them fully enhanced to their full potential. I feel more heroic at the end. Again, that's me. Not sure about everybody else.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

For me, and I'm not trying to speak for anybody else, it's having all of my powers, skills, etc. and having them enhanced and being able to take on the most difficult enemies, quests, or raids/TF's. Not feeling gimped and restricted by not having enough powers or even having them fully enhanced to their full potential. I feel more heroic at the end. Again, that's me. Not sure about everybody else.

OK, still trying to understand, and in no way attempting to say you're wrong, because everyone is entitled to enjoy what they enjoy... You originally used the words "boring and tedious" to describe the journey from 1-50. The situation you describe at max, having gained all your powers and fully enhanced them, is a static one, whereas the levelling process is ever-changing, with new powers or power modifications every level. So the part that's not yet clicking with me (and it may just be I'm missing something) is how the dynamic situation is boring while the static situation is not.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I think the game should work

I think the game should work in such a way that once you accept a person into your mission team, you're agreeing to let them get an equal team share of the XP and loot. The whole team should get equal share of the spoils of war for the mission, assuming they're all on the map for a significant amount of time (e.g. over 25% or even just "show up before it's over" is fine with me). Basing it on damage dealt or other metrics is always going to be unfair to somebody who actually DID participate whereas giving equal swag to people who goldbricked the whole mission is not the end of the world, for me. I'd rather that the game itself err on the side of inclusion and generosity here than end up giving out more XP to he scrapper than to the defender who kept him alive with defense buffs and whatnot because the metrics can't get the formula right. Let the team leaders kick people off the team for laziness if they care about it that much. This sort of stuff is probably best managed by actual people with rational judgment than by computer algorithms and formulae anyway.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

oOStaticOo wrote:
For me, and I'm not trying to speak for anybody else, it's having all of my powers, skills, etc. and having them enhanced and being able to take on the most difficult enemies, quests, or raids/TF's. Not feeling gimped and restricted by not having enough powers or even having them fully enhanced to their full potential. I feel more heroic at the end. Again, that's me. Not sure about everybody else.

OK, still trying to understand, and in no way attempting to say you're wrong, because everyone is entitled to enjoy what they enjoy... You originally used the words "boring and tedious" to describe the journey from 1-50. The situation you describe at max, having gained all your powers and fully enhanced them, is a static one, whereas the levelling process is ever-changing, with new powers or power modifications every level. So the part that's not yet clicking with me (and it may just be I'm missing something) is how the dynamic situation is boring while the static situation is not.

Just out of curiosity, could this be a viewpoint on progression? That is to say that some already know what they want during the entire life-cycle of the character, versus the stepped reveal and choices of powers, abilities, and enhancements?

Radiac wrote:

I think the game should work in such a way that once you accept a person into your mission team, you're agreeing to let them get an equal team share of the XP and loot. The whole team should get equal share of the spoils of war for the mission, assuming they're all on the map for a significant amount of time (e.g. over 25% or even just "show up before it's over" is fine with me). Basing it on damage dealt or other metrics is always going to be unfair to somebody who actually DID participate whereas giving equal swag to people who goldbricked the whole mission is not the end of the world, for me. I'd rather that the game itself err on the side of inclusion and generosity here than end up giving out more XP to he scrapper than to the defender who kept him alive with defense buffs and whatnot because the metrics can't get the formula right. Let the team leaders kick people off the team for laziness if they care about it that much. This sort of stuff is probably best managed by actual people with rational judgment than by computer algorithms and formulae anyway.

I can think of several situations where it's best to let a team leader make those calls. It could be something as simple as a member calling out "Bio, go ahead without me". I don't think most people would want to come back to find the game system had kicked them, even though the team and leader had no problem with their brief absence. Just a thought.

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Im with Cinnder on this,

Im with Cinnder on this, nothing like hitting that level and realizing its a power selection level. I quit a TF in the middle of it at level 45 I think because it was one of the powers I was looking forward too the entire game, the reason I chose that power set even.

As far as door sitting and people just kicking them for it though, sometimes it was the team leader that would do it, I had a guy do it on Synapse's TF to me in mission 5, I sure as hell wasn't wanting to throw away my progress that far into it but I, and 2 other team members, couldn't help but get angry over it.

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There would need to be a

There would need to be a "Vote to elect new leader" function as well, I think.

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Scipio wrote:
Scipio wrote:

PLing isn't really something we should be worried about accommodating though is it?
Im not saying its wrong or evil but would you really rather be able to PL or would you rather force people to PLAY for their XP?

Seriously ridiculous thought process you have.

I for one wont play a game that FORCES me to do anything.

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Psycho Jas wrote:
Psycho Jas wrote:

Scipio wrote:
PLing isn't really something we should be worried about accommodating though is it?
Im not saying its wrong or evil but would you really rather be able to PL or would you rather force people to PLAY for their XP?

Seriously ridiculous thought process you have.
I for one wont play a game that FORCES me to do anything.

You're right, how dare games force you to play to level up, its kinda the way RPGs work there guy

And you do play games that force you to do things, nearly every game forces you to do things to level up or acquire something. You don't just stand there to win a game.

Edit: Excluding chicken, I have been reminded that the entire purpose of that game is not to actually do anything

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enjoy your niche. Don't be a whore.

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Once you've leveled up enough

Once you've leveled up enough characters to Maximum level you pretty much know how things are going to go and how to play the powers out. At that point it's just a grind to get to 50 and no excitement that "I've gotten a new power!". Trust me, once you've leveled about 20 or 30 characters up there isn't much excitement there anymore. I know. I've done it. After you've done it so many times it then becomes more of a "What kind of crazy crap can I do with my fully powered/enhanced/decked out character to try to get it killed, or defeat solo that takes an entire team to beat?" Or, "How fast can I fly through this TF?". Things like that. Yeah, in the beginning leveling up a character is fun and exciting, but after your 5th or 6th one it loses it's excitement. At that point I just want to get my character max level and kitted out, then just run rampant with it.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

Once you've leveled up enough characters to Maximum level you pretty much know how things are going to go and how to play the powers out. At that point it's just a grind to get to 50 and no excitement that "I've gotten a new power!". Trust me, once you've leveled about 20 or 30 characters up there isn't much excitement there anymore. I know. I've done it. After you've done it so many times it then becomes more of a "What kind of crazy crap can I do with my fully powered/enhanced/decked out character to try to get it killed, or defeat solo that takes an entire team to beat?" Or, "How fast can I fly through this TF?". Things like that. Yeah, in the beginning leveling up a character is fun and exciting, but after your 5th or 6th one it loses it's excitement. At that point I just want to get my character max level and kitted out, then just run rampant with it.

Which is why I loved trying to solo AVs!

But I never saw CoH as grind, but maybe that's just because I enjoyed CoH that much. It was always fun for me!

Though I agree. I think people underestimate how easy CoH could be once you played it long enough. I played someone's ILL/EMP at level 50 and everyone was all "You're doing awesome!" and that was different than melee, which I considered most melee's to play pretty much the same.

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

Once you've leveled up enough characters to Maximum level you pretty much know how things are going to go and how to play the powers out. At that point it's just a grind to get to 50 and no excitement that "I've gotten a new power!". Trust me, once you've leveled about 20 or 30 characters up there isn't much excitement there anymore. I know. I've done it. After you've done it so many times it then becomes more of a "What kind of crazy crap can I do with my fully powered/enhanced/decked out character to try to get it killed, or defeat solo that takes an entire team to beat?" Or, "How fast can I fly through this TF?". Things like that. Yeah, in the beginning leveling up a character is fun and exciting, but after your 5th or 6th one it loses it's excitement. At that point I just want to get my character max level and kitted out, then just run rampant with it.

Ok, thanks, I think I understand your perspective on this better now. The only thing I'd disagree with is your implication that this is true for everyone. I had more than 20 characters levelled up, and the process never became boring for me. Before Incarnates, reaching 50 for all but my 2 mains meant the character sat gathering dust, and the mains got play time at 50 only because I was using them for badging on blue and red sides. I think Terlin is probably onto something regarding how we viewed progression. I'm sure what you describe is an accurate portrayal of how you viewed the game -- and a perfectly valid viewpoint -- but it did not apply to everyone.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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JayBezz wrote:BPS = Buff
JayBezz wrote:

BPS = Buff Points (and -BPS means debuff points).

Wouldn't that mean that any powerset which has both buffs and debuffs* is "worse" according to this score? And why differentiate between (ally) buffs and (enemy) debuffs at all considering that they are not opposites but complementarý**?

*Which would include every Support set in CoH save Empathy/Pain Dominance and Trick Arrow, with Kinetics, by its very concept, arriving at... zero.
** Both shift the numerical odds in your favour - whether you lower enemy accuracy or increase your team's evasion, doing both means that you will suffer even less hits, not as-normal or even more.

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

Once you've leveled up enough characters to Maximum level you pretty much know how things are going to go and how to play the powers out. At that point it's just a grind to get to 50 and no excitement that "I've gotten a new power!". Trust me, once you've leveled about 20 or 30 characters up there isn't much excitement there anymore. I know. I've done it. After you've done it so many times it then becomes more of a "What kind of crazy crap can I do with my fully powered/enhanced/decked out character to try to get it killed, or defeat solo that takes an entire team to beat?" Or, "How fast can I fly through this TF?". Things like that. Yeah, in the beginning leveling up a character is fun and exciting, but after your 5th or 6th one it loses it's excitement. At that point I just want to get my character max level and kitted out, then just run rampant with it.

This is personality dependent, I used to enjoy taking stuff to 50 (I levelled my first 72 50s the hard way with no PLing), then just concentrate on a few of them at 50, I had maybe 30 51+s and a dozen or so 53s. Playing a weird build and levelling it to 50 with my SG was something I enjoyed, and helped them level, in most cases I preferred using a toon of the right level if people wanted more for a TF rather than exemping down.

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I also had a lot of 50's in

I also had a lot of 50's in CoH (around 30 I think?) and personally would have been happy if there was an option to create a new character at level 22 (for the SO's :)).
This should be based on some metric such as:
- must have 5 max level characters of different Classes
- Must have at least 80 levels across all characters above level 20 (assuming max level is 30)
- etc
- etc

I had levelled mainly Brutes and Tanks with a few Blasters/Corr/Defenders/Veats.
When I made my Controller I deliberately did NOT do the Sewer Trials as I wanted to learn the mechanics/playstyle and not rush through it all - but would have appreciated my next Tank (SD/Fire) to be able to jump to level 22 as I already have a level 50 Tank with SD and another level 50 Tank with Fire Melee.

But this seems to have gotten off-topic :)

My thoughts on some of the options raided here:
- Sidekick only within X meters
This use to be the way CoH did sidekicking. One you got out of range your level dropped to your actual level and everything turned Purple. This was often a problem as the level 50 character would be in a mission in say a level 50 zone and you would run to the mission door but as a level 25 'sidekick' I would have a hard time reaching the mission without dying.

- XP gained at mission end only when within x meters of the objective
Obviously the X meters has to be big enough to allow ranged/pet character to stay at range but still affect the mission.
Also what about Kill All missions if the team splits to clear different corridors - or as used to happen in CoH quite often the map is cleared but we miss one bad guy and everyone runs everywhere to find him. If im on the other side of the map I wont get any End Of Mission XP.

- XP based on how much you did (Dmg/Buff/Taunt/Debuff/etc)
Will never be seen by all as 'fair'.

The easiest way to do this is to aware everyone the same share of XP irrespective. If you don't like door sitters then kick them (if leader) or ask for a vote to kick. This becomes a Team/Player decision not a Developer decision.

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Scipio wrote:
Scipio wrote:

Im with Cinnder on this, nothing like hitting that level and realizing its a power selection level. I quit a TF in the middle of it at level 45 I think because it was one of the powers I was looking forward too the entire game, the reason I chose that power set even.

Really? You quit a TF in the middle just to select a power? Putting aside the fact that you could swing by a trainer during a TF (although maybe not use the power immediately if you were exemplared down), you just abandoned the other people who were trying to complete the TF?

Remind me not to team with you on any TFs in CoT. You might level up in the middle of it.

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Mendicant wrote:
Mendicant wrote:

Scipio wrote:
Im with Cinnder on this, nothing like hitting that level and realizing its a power selection level. I quit a TF in the middle of it at level 45 I think because it was one of the powers I was looking forward too the entire game, the reason I chose that power set even.

Really? You quit a TF in the middle just to select a power? Putting aside the fact that you could swing by a trainer during a TF (although maybe not use the power immediately if you were exemplared down), you just abandoned the other people who were trying to complete the TF?
Remind me not to team with you on any TFs in CoT. You might level up in the middle of it.

I wish I could say I haven't experienced players doing stupid things like that. :/ It's as bad as a few players I knew who kept wondering why no one would team with them, when they'd just afk or exit TFs all together (even normal missions) in the middle.

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Joined: 10/02/2013 - 15:44
Remember when CO had

Remember when CO had Resistance Farming? Remember tackling a giant Legendary class enemy (Technically it coulda been Cosmic with its stats..) for thousands of experience and globals... 4 times in a row? Remember how it wasn't exactly BAD since it was the last part of the Adventure Pack and getting there was already hard? Remember how they patched the hell out of it and removed any reason to do Resistance, save for the achievements and too-rare-to-farm-for costume pieces? Remember how they said it was a foolish idea to allow some system like that... then basically reinstated it with On-Alert, only it was MUCH easier to do since you didn't have to go through an entire AP?

Lord Nightmare remembers.

And I think that such a thing should be in EVERY MMO. That one TF that is very hard but gives multitudes of XP and Inf at the end or that dungeon that pisses everyone off but has so much goodness in the rewards.