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Engineer and crafting?

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Alex Heartnet
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Engineer and crafting?

As much as crafting is overdone in many games, I am failing to see a superhero-level engineer doing anything else. Starting out you might make a small, cheap attack robot, which means that you will have to make the components for it which include stuff like the robot hull, hover thrusters, power source, laser cannon... And then you find your contraption is too slow so you mak a new set of stronger hover thrusters and start tweaking the design further and further...

Not to mention that when the robot gets damaged, you might need to make replacement parts to get it working again.

Lothic
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Crafting in a superhero game

Crafting in a superhero game is a curious thing. Unlike say a fantasy or high-tech setting where pretty much everyone has a reason to craft (for either their swords or their spaceships) in a superhero setting there are definitely character concepts where there's no obvious need for them to craft anything. For instance how often would Supergirl or the Incredible Hulk actually need to "craft" anything to make them effective as superheroes? On the other hand as you point out the classic "gadgeteer" character (like Batman or Iron Man) is almost completely centered around crafting as a fundamental core of their character.

So how to resolve this for a MMO?

CoT is going to allow for a basic kind of abstract crafting that will allow all characters to augment/improve their powers. This crafting won't involve items/equipment/gear in the traditional sense that it does in other games - all of it will be generic enough that it should apply to any superhero character concept. This is more or less how CoH worked. That leaves us with what you call an "engineer" or gadgeteer type character. It's possible that CoT will eventually create a new specialty character class specifically designed to be like a Batman type where all of its "powers" would have to be based on the type of physical gear (or even robots in your example) they can create but I wouldn't expect anything like that to be ready for the game's launch day.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Fireheart
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Besides, the Engineer/Gadgets

Besides, the Engineer/Gadgets/Devices character almost never does his crafting 'on-screen', except in a montage form, so there's no need to force it in-game. The character has only to activate his device-based power and use it on his opponents.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Lothic
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Besides, the Engineer/Gadgets/Devices character almost never does his crafting 'on-screen', except in a montage form, so there's no need to force it in-game. The character has only to activate his device-based power and use it on his opponents.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Yep this is why even the "Engineer/Gadgets/Devices" type character can be accounted for by the basic abstract crafting system CoT will use. If MWM manages to create a specialized "crafter" class at some point then that'll be fine - the point is that it doesn't necessarily need that to handle everyone in this game.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

White_Glint
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I WOULD actually like to see

I WOULD actually like to see that! It'd be VERY interesting! To have to almost craft, repair, replace, and even customize an attack bot through out your experience would put a new feeling of reality to it! So I have to agree with this! Plus! I'd like to see an option for either an attack bot OR a medium sized mecha suit where you can armor up in for combat that has the same mechanics as maintaining the robot! But for this, I'd like to see a huge variety of parts that grant players the ability to use different combinations! For example, a bigger and heavier suit, but it has heavier weaponry on it, or a fast agile suit that has fast hitting guns or melee weapons!

Fireheart
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So, you'd like to spend hours

So, you'd like to spend hours of your game-time with a hammer in your hand, kit-bashing your robot? I'd rather be using that robot to bash thugs.

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Fireheart

Lothic
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White_Glint wrote:
White_Glint wrote:

... OR a medium sized mecha suit where you can armor up in for combat that has the same mechanics as maintaining the robot! But for this, I'd like to see a huge variety of parts that grant players the ability to use different combinations! For example, a bigger and heavier suit, but it has heavier weaponry on it, or a fast agile suit that has fast hitting guns or melee weapons!

Turns out that Fallout 4 has a fun little subsystem for Power Armor which let's you customize each major piece (helmet, torso, arms and legs) with different qualities depending on what you want to specialize in. I could see that system "cut-n-pasted" from Fallout 4 and tweaked just a bit to become more superhero oriented. It'd be perfect for anyone who want to have an Iron man or Gundam clone in CoT.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Mendicant
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

White_Glint wrote:
... OR a medium sized mecha suit where you can armor up in for combat that has the same mechanics as maintaining the robot! But for this, I'd like to see a huge variety of parts that grant players the ability to use different combinations! For example, a bigger and heavier suit, but it has heavier weaponry on it, or a fast agile suit that has fast hitting guns or melee weapons!
Turns out that Fallout 4 has a fun little subsystem for Power Armor which let's you customize each major piece (helmet, torso, arms and legs) with different qualities depending on what you want to specialize in. I could see that system "cut-n-pasted" from Fallout 4 and tweaked just a bit to become more superhero oriented. It'd be perfect for anyone who want to have an Iron man or Gundam clone in CoT.

Just so long as there's a way to build the base armor pieces, too. The number of suits of Power Armor I have that are missing legs because FO4 spawns more torsos and arms.... and don't get me started on finding enough helmets.

Lothic
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Mendicant wrote:
Mendicant wrote:

Just so long as there's a way to build the base armor pieces, too. The number of suits of Power Armor I have that are missing legs because FO4 spawns more torsos and arms.... and don't get me started on finding enough helmets.

I envision CoT's version of Power Armor to be more like a "Power Armor powerset" that would be a hybrid between pure crafting and having several specialized powers that are related to your powersuit. Remember CoT will not be a "gear" oriented game (like Fallout 4 is) so I would not expect to be finding pieces of Power Armor as loot. But I would expect that the way the augments are going to work in CoT would let you "customize" the various parts of your suit to your liking.

Among the "powers" related to this powerset might be level-based unlocks to get multiple suits. This would then actually sort of mimic how Kheldians worked by having several "forms" that specialized in different combat abilities but instead of those forms being hardwired you'd be able to customize each of them. Then of course there could be all sorts of cosmetic mods you could find or buy to customize the "look" of your suit maybe even to the point of having your default "big bulky suit" look more like regular clothes.

As you can see the possibilities with this are really quite interesting...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Gorgon
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There are other things you

There are other things you could craft besides powerups, however implemented, like rare items for your base.

Crafting is mechanically gathering items, frequently with one hard to get one, clicking a button, and boom.

The one thing it isn't, ironically, is a creativity outlet. That is base design, and power customization (slotting with bonus proc, or piece # effects at the higher end, in CoH terms), or a Hunter searching out a particular pet with certain powers (gameplay) and/or look (vanity).

Heck, one of the first things I did with a new char was run and get the Nimble Mynx title to tide me over until the higher level ones.

Crafting proper would need some freeform possibilities to be creative. In fantasy MMO terms, a chain shirt recipe would accept any metal, not not just one, with varying results. Literally any metal, in implementation, some raw materials would be tagged "metal" with certain properties (durability, etc.) that are auto-expressed in recipes. Get away from needing a Rotting Diseased Extra Large Swamp Rat gall bladder, when any animal's (or any of 100 types of rats') gall bladders would work.

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Mendicant
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Gorgon wrote:
Gorgon wrote:

There are other things you could craft besides powerups, however implemented, like rare items for your base.
Crafting is mechanically gathering items, frequently with one hard to get one, clicking a button, and boom.
The one thing it isn't, ironically, is a creativity outlet. That is base design, and power customization (slotting with bonus proc, or piece # effects at the higher end, in CoH terms), or a Hunter searching out a particular pet with certain powers (gameplay) and/or look (vanity).
Heck, one of the first things I did with a new char was run and get the Nimble Mynx title to tide me over until the higher level ones.
Crafting proper would need some freeform possibilities to be creative. In fantasy MMO terms, a chain shirt recipe would accept any metal, not not just one, with varying results. Literally any metal, in implementation, some raw materials would be tagged "metal" with certain properties (durability, etc.) that are auto-expressed in recipes, rather than pre-generating 100 "metals", each of which is just a meaningless raw material.

A crafting system with materials having a range of effects and the ranges themselves being variable depending on the recipe being used and the nature of the other materials being used? I like it.

To use your chain shirt example, if I use just copper as my material, it gets a durability between 10 and 15. If I use tin, it gets a durability of 3-5. But if I use both copper and tin, it forms bronze and the shirt gets a durability of 18-20.

Gorgon
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DDO's system has literally

DDO's system has literally thousands of recipes, each for different levels, and you have to clumsily paw through massive lists looking for this or that thing, study its properties, note it as a maybe, and move on.

You just...can't...build...what you want.

Which is sad -- it seemed awesome at first glance, you would disassemble something and get some units of air magic or fire magic. I was hoping you could, say, capture the vorpal aspect of something, then use that in creation of a new item.

But the disenchanting was just a generic ingredient supply method. Coupled with thousands of recipes, god how full of fail.

It is literally the logical conclusion, the end game, of "You need a small diseased rat gall bladder"-type crafting.

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Gorgon
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DDO got it much righter with

DDO got it much righter with their Green Steel stuff. It was still hard recipes internally, but you had massive freedom to place what you wanted. Then they added higher tiers allowing further customization.

This was very similar, on one aspect, to the incarnate system.

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The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.