CoH was my first and only MMORPG for 8 years. Since then I have played into the endgame of Champions and DCUO, and in both cases it was truly the "end of the game" for me.
While leveling up in all 3 games the focus is on missions and mission arcs with lots of story and atmosphere, in CoH the "endgame" was largely more of the same on a grander scale with lots of Taskforces, which were just long, engaging sequences of missions with a cool story linked to the Lore of the game.
When I got to the Endgame in Champions and DCUO, much to my dismay, I found a sudden, marked change in emphasis from running missions or sequences of missions scattered all over the game maps--which I LOVE doing--to waiting around in a que for some kind of Raid or Alert.
I miss the days of "anyone want to do the Statesman Taskforce, PST!" where you actually talked to people and got to know them at least a bit while putting it together before going on a sequence of interesting missions all over the game with them.
Instead, in the other two games, often you just click a button and get thrown into one big one-shot mission with a bunch of people you haven't even shared as much as a "sure, I'll come :)" with. At least with Hami raids you got the Zone shout "HAMI RAID!!!", and it was awn! That was fun and exciting.
I know we got endgame queing with DA and Praetoria, but by that point there was so much Mission-based endgame that the DA "raids" were just one option for when you were in the mood, AND they were much more fun for some reason when you were in the mood--I guess because of the huge multi-team size and clear link to the "story" of the game.
If there were endgame missions and Taskforces and Radio Missions and such in Champions and DCUO, I might actually pay those games instead of loging on to visit my Heroes and then flying around thinking--"Do I really want to get in a que for an Alert or put together a Raid. Nah, more than I want to get into tonight. So, what else can I do? Hmmmm. Mmmmm. Ummmm. Nothing? *logs out."
Is it just me? I had no abrupt feeling of change or of a very different feel of the game when I reached the endgame in CoH, the transition was very smooth. And I LIKED that because leveling in that game was FUN. Why would I want the endgame to be very different from that? And I don't remember ever having that feeling of "nothing fun to do" in CoH.
Sorry for the rant, but GOD I want a Superhero game that is just fricking fun to play long-term, and CoH was the only one I've found so far that was for me. Am I just a victim of rose-colored hindsight?
Here's praying for CoT to truly resurrect that same spirit of FUN that CoH had.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I agree CoH Endgame, seemed to be there wasn't one. It was just the next logical step in threats. First Street fighting, then organize crime, organized threats like Arachnos, Skyraiders. Global Threats Devouring Earth (Hami Raid!) Threats from other dimensions, then finally galactic threats. Sadly we never really got to see the intergalactic threat The Battalion. At the same time to take on the different threats you needed larger teams and flushed out powers. Even when you got to max level the threats were designed that you couldn't do it alone. Well until they did bring up the Solo Incarnate missions. Still they were also a challenge where you felt you were still improving even at max level thanks to the incarnate system.
Like you Empyrean I played the others and felt... something lacking near the higher levels and at the end game.
Of course there was the fun of going back to atlas and helping a newbie learn the ropes. That was the most fun I had with my 50 then all the tasks forces. We so need Adopt a Newbie setup ready!
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
I know. You really felt like a hero when going back and helping low level new heroes using the sidekick/mentor system or even just following them around and healing them or holding bad guys for them when they got in trouble. Why is that dynamic missing in the other games?
Also, you kind of made a second home in CoH. Champions had a little of that feel but DCUO has virtually none. DCUO really feels like a video game rather than another world. Maybe that's part of what made WoW (which I never played but have friends who did) so long lived and CoH so hard to lose. You weren't losing a game, you were losing a world you had moved part of yourself into.
Wow, that was nerdy and melodramatic to say, but I still mean it.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I agree. In other MMOs the endgame stuff almost feels like a different game to me. In CoX I liked having stuff for my 50s to do, especially stuff they could choose to do either solo or teamed, like alignment missions and new DA, though I also enjoyed the TF stuff from time to time. For me, though, the most exciting aspect of getting a character to 50 was that it meant I could create a new character with no guilt. :-)
The KS update on this very topic was one of the ones that encouraged me the most about CoT:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/630570
Spurn all ye kindle.
I read an article about raiding on Massively a little while ago that basically held that focusing on raids as the end game is a mistake. Even in WoW, which has added a 'Looking For Raid' system to make it easier to get into raids, the author held, most people aren't actually interested in actively raiding. If they do it, it is primarily because there is little else to do and that is where the best equipment can be found, not because they enjoy raiding in itself. There was also the figure of 5% who enjoy raids (or are hardcore raiders, I forget the details). The author pointed out that, going off that 5% figure, if a game has around 500,000 players, who exactly are they catering to with the raids?
I'm certain that the article was primarily an opinion piece, but it did give me pause for thought. As I'd said before, I don't particularly enjoy raiding. If I do it it is primarily because I enjoy hanging out with the folks in my guild/SG and for the potential reward. However, once I have that reward my interest in a raid essentially drops to zero, beyond helping other people get through it. Which is helpful and noble and all, but it hardly makes the raid itself any more engaging or fun.
So, yes, I agree with Empyrean. Let there be task forces, raids, or whatever they'll be called, but give them a reason to exist other than "here is where you find the defense booster that is 5% better than any booster you can get elsewhere. Oh, you're a tank and need about fifty of those? Hoo boy, you're going to be here so often I think we'll have to charge you rent."
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Yes. AND who the hell thought forcing players to repeatedly play mediocre content with a stick and carrot would EVER lead to a sustainable game? It's just lazy design.
All game designers everywhere, NOW HEAR THIS- Skinner boxes only work IF YOU CAN'T GET OUT OF THE BOX! Since people have many game choices, you have to design the Skinner box THAT IS THE MOST FUN, so the emphasis goes back to creating a FUN game!
I cant tell you how infuriating it is to have to grind raids and alerts in DCUO just to be able to get costume pieces to dinker with my look the way I so easily did and happily spent hours and hours doing in CoH.
Or I should say it WOULD be infuriating to have to grind raids and alerts- I just won't do it. The carrot just isn't worth the boring-assed Skinner box.
So I just don't play :(.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
One thing I would like to echo which I heard a little bit of in the OP, there's a subtle but important difference, I think, between "social networking" and "socializing", even in the game. In early CoH I LOVED LOVED LOVED hanging out in known PUG formation points, like the starting point in Boomtown, or the Atlas gate in Perez. People would just hang around and talk and form teams and have fun. Forming TFs was similar, because you had to all start the TF in the same zone as the contact that gave it. This was a bit of a drag for some people who were otherwise occupied, but I still liked that I could mill about with my future TF teammates and shoot the breeze while waiting to start. In year 8 when I did Incarnate Trials, people on Triumph used to hang around in Pocket D/ the Vanguard Base/ the portal area in Dark Astoria while forming the league. I liked that. All of this gave people some place to physically (in game terms) go to check out what was going on, and maybe get encouraged to participate in a TF, PUG, or Trial League. I MUCH MUCH MUCH prefer that to just clicking a button and getting in a queue.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
As for raids in general, I used to enjoy doing them over and over again on my alts. Part of it was needing swag for the alts, part was learning the Trial itself. I probably did the Lambda Trial enough times to lead one, but I still felt like a noob trying to speed-run those glowies in those base maps. I liked that. I liked "Avoid the green stuff" and "protect HD!" and "Who's got Desi?" and all of that stuff. I would be repeating it tonight if I could. I think making badges that were unlocked by doing the trials differently or better or in a more challenging way was a smart design move. It gave you something to reach for and a reason for doing the trial more than once per toon, and it rewarded having a plan and following the plan like a good teammate. If the trials are complex anough to have to figure them out a little bith the first few times, I think they hold up better over repeated iterations.
Edit: and the best trials and TFs were the ones you stood a decent chance of failing if you didn't pay attention or got careless.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
There is an option. Why not have PUG hangouts integrated int he Raid find system. Here what I'm thinking instead of having a pug/raid/trial find system in the UI you also have the option of going to a wait station. There was talk of a calender system and that can serve as a wait location as well for events like raids and trials.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
I agree with Radiac that it is nice (I might even go so far as to argue that it is important) to have visible entrance points to TFs, instances, dungeons, etc. where people can hang out, gather or even just admire the view. I'd certainly prefer that to an unlikely collection of doors or portals in some conveniently centralized location. Such convenience tends to be lifeless (SWTOR is guilty of this). The way grouping tools are currently made to function does kind of run counter to that, and a MMO today can scarcely afford to launch without one, but one could opt to have it gather the people together outside the instance instead of dropping them inside.
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That's a good idea Darth. Could have resources there at the get together location as well. Have things like Inspiration venders, healing bay. Things of that nature.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
^Radiac and Darth's ideas are awesome.
Reading this link did make me feel better, Cinder- and in one unexpected way.
Reading it and it's unabashed referance to SWTOR made me realize- since they are already making a spiritual successor, they're less likely to fall prey to the pressure for EVERYTHING to be innovative.
Innovation is great, but not when you ditch what works well for something new just to "make your mark". There are plenty of innovative games that aren't very fun, and plenty of great games that aren't all that innovative.
The priority should be to make the game fun, not just to try a bunch of new ideas. If a new idea improves the fun, great! But if CoH or another game had or has a system that has been proven to be great fun- use it!
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I'd given a passing thought to something similar to RottenLuck's suggestion. Have some utility near those areas (vendors or whatever) and possibly some kind of mini-game (e.g. WoW's [url=http://www.wowwiki.com/Steam_Tonk]steam tonks[/url]), if only to give people something to do while they way for groups to form. Some could even serve double duty for PvP arenas, especially if thematically appropriate.
The class stories in SWTOR were neat, even if one could go long enough before picking them up again that it was possible to forget that there is a class story. In a single player game such an approach is viable, since in any DLC or future game the developers need to carry over one character's story. In SWTOR they need to carry on with [i]eight[/i] stories. Frankly, I think they were banking a bit too much on considerable success to be able to pull off that trick.
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Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
same here i like endgame but same time more Difficult for endgame like dark soul and Demon's Souls, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs
whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look into the abyss, the abyss also look into you, -Friedrich
[img]http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm106/hinata1032/Kitsune.jpg[/img]
Dunno. Difficult doesn't automatically = fun. If it's hard and fun, fine. If it's easy and fun, fine. There were lots of both easy and hard things in CoH that were fun.
Of course everyone's taste is different, and I guess for some people it's not fun unless it's nonstop stress. But while sometimes I'm in the mood for a real challenge, often I just want to relax and have fun.
Best answer would be some of both, I'd guess.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
^^^ what'cha got there is a brand advocate right ther'.
(You guys got me hooked on EC)
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Avatar by MikeNovember
same here just want to relax and have fun wish make a quests where Non-Combat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QJVGtKPjNc but play mmorpgs for end game same thing end boss memorization Battle and it same new like in dark soul 2 where boss summons players help him out
whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look into the abyss, the abyss also look into you, -Friedrich
[img]http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm106/hinata1032/Kitsune.jpg[/img]
I think it may be as simple as this: people will tend to aggregate in an area when they're waiting to start a trial. For TFs you HAD to click on the NPC giving you the TF if you were the leader, so that made that the location of interest by default. For iTrials, I think we ended up in Dark Astoria because you had a hospital, a NPC to sell crap to, a merit vendor, and if I'm not mistaken, a difficulty setting NPC all in fairly close proximity. I'm fairly certain we used the Vanguard Base for this reason too, and because both options were in zones open to both sides. It would be nice if eacjh trial, TF, etc had some sort of natural "lobby" area to hang around in. People can then wlak by and notice something's going on and try to get into a team or TF or whatever as an add-on to a team or start their own PUG or whatever. I think it would be good not to make these areas too remote. The closer to the heavy traffic areas, I think, the better.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Having watched WildStar's PAX stream, something like their raids would be nice, but I think I'd like them limited to 20man. While I have every intention to play WS's 40 man raids, and I like everything WS is planning to do and their plans, I do wonder what the appeal of 40man raids is.
I understand the appeal of larger group content, but 20 people seems easier to get together than 40.
Not a big fan of the giant Raids. I found it hard enough to gather up enough people for an 8 man TF, let alone how long it took to gather up enough people for an iTrial. If we do anything like that, let's keep it down to a minimum amount of them. Having too many Raids can lead to spreading out the population too thin when trying to gather enough people for them. I'd rather them focus on trying to keep developing new areas in which to explore and run new missions and TF's than trying to come up with some form of giant Raid system that rewards players with leet loot.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
For a long time I didn't play TFs and raids in CoH for timing reasons. I played at odd hours for the first few years and never seemed to find raiding teams. My first Mother Ship raid was a BLAST and though I only did a couple of Hami raids those were fun too.
CO isn't as social a game as CoH for many reasons. It hasn't been around as long. There are no real reasons to join SGs and they have no real Bases to speak of. People seem more interested in joining raids to get stuff than have fun.
I think you need the social aspect first in order to feel ties to anyone. I ran my own SG in CoH and we played every week for a couple of years. It was loads of fun and you got to know the other players a little bit. Dr X was never the reliable guy but he sure was powerful. Magiman was steadfast and true but a bit gabby and so on. The characters were like PEOPLE, not just piles of characteristics and powers.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Dungeons and Raids, yes please.
Some content is great for small groups, some for a few small groups and some for a large number of small groups. I say 30 players is where I draw my personal cap.
Adding endgame for soloing seems like a counterproductive measure. In my experience, the soloers are the quickest to leave no matter the endgame. Single player games aren't made for replay value and people who have an affinity for single player games tend to follow that line of thought so when they "reach the end of the game" they play the next game. It was hard for me as a console gamer to understand the expandable model of gaming until I joined the social realm of gaming. Without the social aspect "endgame" is just "You saved the Princess" and then wait for Mario 2 to come out.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Well, not as argument, just as a counter point, I was an 8 year 90% solo player and I knew a lot of others who were the same through my friend list that I collected over all of that time.
Also, alts, amazing replay value, and NOT having the typical Dungeon/Raid focused endgame was exactly one of the things that was considered unique, fresh, and special about CoH and part of why so many miss it.
Champions and DCUO have plenty of Dungeons and Raids, but many of us aren't finding satisfaction in that, so we're looking to MWM to bring back and move forward the unique an different genre that CoH started.
Again, not saying I'm right or you're wrong, just putting a counter point out there. I may well be the one who's wrong. I guess time will tell.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Raids and endgame Ops are great, but what I loved about CoX was that I could hop on my 50 just to have some fun by myself at odd or interrupted hours that made group play difficult, and just run the wide range of available Ouroboros missions, jump into the Mission Architect or do newspapers/radios at any difficulty range I felt like managing at the time.
I play SWToR now, and there are just two reasons to play my 55s: Solo dailies - some suck, and without the gear you get from doing them 20x are a pain in the bum as they are not scale-able.. and group Ops which again have the same problem of necessary gear.. so I'm just grinding these two sets of quests to get gear to better run these two sets of quests - some of which is impossible to get soloing (basically the best stuff). I loved that there wasn't a sense of running on a treadmill with a carrot dangling in front of me - I played my 50s because they were fun, not because I needed to to get elite gear. And I was able to get that gear soloing, it took a little longer perhaps, but it wasn't an impossible task.
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In the last few months of CoX I mainly soloed my Demon mastermind during the day for swag (Hero Merits from doing alignment missions) and then did Incarnate stuff with big leagues at night. Both were fun, I thought.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
+1 to everything Empyrean said and to this:
Spurn all ye kindle.
I didn't mind the occasional iTrial or two when I needed to do them for my Incarnate Abilities. I did, however, hate how long it took to get them formed up and then half of the people either Rage Quitted for some stupid reason or quit because too much time had passed and they now needed to go do something else instead, like work. That's my issue with big Raids. The amount of people it takes, the amount of time it takes, and then having to put up with elitist people who rage quit at the smallest thing. I personally would rather it just be 8 man TF's only, but if we do have some large TF's that require more people, then the limit CoH had on all of their iTrials is fine. I just hope we keep it down to a minimum on those though.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
My take on How To Create an Appealing MMO Endgame (or, Why I Mostly Liked CoH Endgame):
> Provide a variety of endgame activities, from PvP to PvE, Solo to Team to League to zone-wide events, crafting, collecting, exploration, designing content/bases, from socializing to min/maxing, to playing the auction house.
> Encourage alt-itis through huge diversity of powersets, costumes, and slotting/crafting min/maxing options.
> Allow max level players to play alongside newbies while still earning rewards (mentoring) and repeat content (Ouro System).
> Don't make the rewards exclusive (can only get Loot P from grinding Trial C).
> Don't make the rewards too difficult to obtain from the alternate methods (Trial drop rate is fair, but solo drop rate is far too low in comparison).
> Design endgame content so that it is not a step-function difficulty increase over normal PvE. A smooth range of difficulties and durations is best (BAF->Keyes->UG, for example).
> Make the trial content adjust its difficulty to the team size, so that a fun trial experience is still possible for off-peak times and smaller groups.
CoH was nailing it or moving closer to these ideals in i23 and moving forward (a bit slower that some of us wanted, but...).
I do hope there's endgame power system slotted for the future, it extends the endgame very much, BUT if it could be less Grind-intensive, we'd all be appreciative.
However, given the "splashes" of powers available in pools and such, the variety offered by such a system could be diminished.
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Avatar by MikeNovember
I agree. I liked the iTrials, just didn't like how long it took to do them just to get all the stuff needed. I understand that there needs to be a time sink to it somehow, but running the same iTrial over and over and over and over again only to keep getting Common items needed to make something instead of increasing the odds that you'll get that Uncommon, Rare, or Super Rare was a pain in the hind quarters. Perhaps giving us the choice of what we need, except for the Super Rare that would be determined by a random number generator. That would make it less grind intensive unless you really wanted that Super Rare. You'd still have to run it several times to gather up all the resources, just not umpteen billion times hoping you get the one component that you need to finish it.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Why not have different side-objectives that increase the chances of greater drops?
In a LS like iTrial, maybe taking gear from the base that isn't necessary to bring down what's-his-name, the chances go up for greater gear.
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Avatar by MikeNovember
There were optional missions in the iTrials. All they gave you extra were badges you needed to get the Master Of "iTrial" badge. Didn't do anything to up the odds that you'd get a different drop than a common or uncommon. I don't know how to correctly fix that issue that CoH had. Random Number Generator was Random. Problem was that sometimes it wasn't equally random as it should have been I think. I couldn't tell you how many times I ran the BAF and kept getting Commons every time upon completion, then right as I was about to give up on the whole thing and go to bed.........Uh.......Uh......WAIT!!!......I got an UNCOMMON!.......YAY!! Getting a rare or a super rare on an iTrial was just ridiculously random. I've seen people get 6 super rares in a row, and then you have people like me that very rarely ever saw them.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
There was actually a time when I was trying to get an uncommon and I kept getting rares. Although I had better than average luck with the RNG in CoH in general, It seemed to be that I only got VR incarnate salvage on the characters I wasn't going to take up to tier 4. If there is to be a salvage component to CoT's endgame, I do hope it is account bound and not character bound for this very reason.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
Besides the (good) suggestions to connect increased drop rates to side objectives and make rewards account-bound, a shifting of the balance between random and deterministic rewards can defuse a great deal of the frustration with the randomness of the RNG. CoH trials had a very skewed balance, with almost all of the "reward value" of a trial coming in the form of the random C/UC/R/VR drop. This made getting the "wrong" drop very disappointing, because that trial attempt then felt like a waste of time, a Sparta kick back into grind mode. I once did a calculation of expected value of each trial's reward, and found that the deterministic (merit) component was shockingly small, below 10%, due to the small merit reward and the high merit cost of the "right" drop. Was it intended? Perhaps, but not one of the better design aspects of CoH endgame, in my opinion.
When a more balanced deterministic reward (say, at least 30% value as merits and 70% value in the random drop) is set, a "wrong" drop hurts less, since noticeable progress is still made toward the player's goal. That was the beauty of the Task Force reward merits - there was no "wrong" reward. Every merit could be turned into something useful.
The other option is to make the "wrong" drop's trade-in value less punishing. Essentially, give somewhere in the 50% to 80% range as trade-in value toward the actual desired item. CoH did have a trade-in feature but it was limited both in value and applicability. It used a two-step process, a shards/threads breakdown (losing >75% of the shard value of the drop) and then the desired item typically required not only those shards but also Inf currency and all four components of the next lower tier. Due to this two step process, trade-in worked out to getting less than 5% of the "wrong" drop's value back toward the desired one. The whole breakdown deal felt like a swindle, adding a poorly-designed and avoidable injury to the random drop's insult, instead of feeling like the positive step that it should have been.
I disagree with the thought that all rewards earned or acquired as randomized drops should be tradeable commodities, even just among one person's alts. I have two reasons for this:
1. It harshes my sense of immersion. The idea that Radiac defeated Antimatter in the Keyes trial means that Radiac should have gotten the reward for it from the Well of the Furies and thus the Lore pets he wanted. Capt. Supernova, on the other hand, was not there and did not curry any favor with the Well, so he should NOT get that.
2. The Incarnate system was robust enough to deal with the good luck/bad luck problem in so far as it had threads, shards, Astral Merits, Empyrean Merits, and different levels of swag that could be accumulated by combining low level stuff in order to make higher level stuff. It wasn't the most efficient way to get that stuff, but it was there. Some toons ended up needing to work a little harder to get the swag they wanted, some not so much, but it was still possible. I'd rather have a slightly more efficient combination system in place than be able to trade stuff that feels like it would not be tradeable in the immersive sense.
Those two things being said, I did use Empyrean Mike to move threads form one toon to another, not going to lie. I felt dirty for doing it, and I mostly did it for newly minted Incarnate toons so as to be able to participate in Trials and not be so much of a drag on the league, but I did it nonetheless.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
You're right that CoH lore (driven by the Well's favor) was prejudiced against account-tradeable Incarnate components. CoT's endgame components and lore wouldn't have to be quite as character-specific, and therefore immersion and account-binding could coexist. For instance, an endgame system wherein power is gained by absorbing magic/tech/knowledge from alternate universes could easily support the idea of a hero/villain leader seeking out these power sources, then assigning whatever was acquired to their friends/minions who could make the best use of the randomly-dropped reward.
If you're saying that you prefer endgame lore which includes some force or a conscious entity that locks reward drops to each character, then that's your call to make - I never debate preference.
I think both types of lore are workable, but if lore imposes character-bound rewards, good game design dictates robust alternatives to randomness, and "grind for 1-2 Emp merits" or "breakdown/convert with a 95% loss" didn't really count as reasonable alternatives, in my book, especially when those Emp merits were much harder to obtain when not playing on the right server(s) at the right time(s). Here's one spot where I think CoT can keep the good aspects of CoH, but tone down the RNG-imposed grind just a bit. Account binding is just one (and not necessarily the best) way to adjust it.
I didn't want to necro the SS thread and didn't think this was big enough to start a whole thread about, so I'll semi-hijack my own thread for this.
In CoH, I had a main I LOVED who's only powers were being tough and strong. He was perfect and easy to do in CoH unill...
Incarnate. It was very hard to use some of the incarnate stuff without breaking the concept that he was just STRONG. Every time I equiped an attack enhancer I punched people so hard they... glowed. Or caught on fire, or something. Which was AWESOME for my other main, but not my plain ole big dumb good-natured strong guy.
And the big epic attack powers were all elemental or tech or something. Didn't seem like it would have been that hard to make an epic superstomp/ground punch (hell, the Air Superiority animation would have worked) or a stun enhancement that just made them look woozy rather than glowing like a lightening bug.
So PLEASE make it be possible to be just a big, dumb strong guy all the way to the endgame. I mean, that's pretty stock comic book stuff.
Thanks!
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I feel like this in Champions, I used to love it when higher levels would randomly give me a nice buff, or when I leveled up doing the same for random low levels struggling to fight off groups slightly too big or strong.
In Champions there is no need or desire to help other players.
I play for hours at a time by myself on Champions, no desire to join a team. Partially because I miss CoH too much playing it. So much of the game is based off of CoH, but different enough that it is not appealing.
CoH was the first MMO I actually enjoyed playing, the subscriptions did get a little out of hand, especially if you are busy working all the time struggling to pay bills. $50-60 USD to buy a game, then pay monthly $15-20 just to play?
I would of gladly paid $5-10 and I know at least 20 people who left CoH who would of came back on a regular basis for that fee.
I do not like most free to play games, and I hate pay for special upgrade type games.
If this becomes a Free to play server like plans suggest, I hope they give a fair chance for free to play members to earn in game cash/rewards to receive the same rewards.
I don't mind playing for one month (at least 1-2 hours everyday) to earn a reward, as long as I have the chance.
Some games you get rewards, but must pay to unlock, and the prices are ridiculous.
If you want to give paying members benefits, make multiple tiers of paid subscriptions.
A cheap affordable level (that you have to work harder for bonuses) and a higher premium service that adds perks, like Ability to for Super groups, Bases, bonus costume slots. Stuff that is not important to the game or game play.
My Rant is over, sorry, wondered off track... been suffering from CoH withdrawal.
P.S.
Unlike CoH, can we have real Villains if they are added as a option. Not Good Villains, fighting an even worse enemy/villain? Use the same super heroes as enemy, that you use to assist the heroes. Make me believe I have a villain, something CoV did not get right (at least when I played it).
I understand that you're asking to be able to play a 'real villain'. The rest I'm unable to parse.
What is a 'real villain'? The requests for this that I've seen on this forum fall into two categories: being able to play your standard fictional nihilist-cum-psycho-/sociopath who kills and destroys just because they can kill and destroy, and improved story telling so that our characters don't come off as a gopher for every dolt who can't be bothered to go buy their own newspaper. For the former case I can only say that while I also enjoy a good destructive romp as much as the next person, I cannot see how this would make compelling (or logical) game play in a MMO.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
half peoples on be form be nihilist-cum-psycho-/sociopath Villains but for me be like Toguro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CTqkjAUJJc
whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look into the abyss, the abyss also look into you, -Friedrich
[img]http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm106/hinata1032/Kitsune.jpg[/img]
I gotta go with Darth on this. Especially in a classic comicbook based MMO.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
When I read this I imagined standing on a cliff overlooking a desert bowl. And down in the bowl there was a TF fighting a Great Old One or something. And I was a lowbie, not yet powerful enough to help, and so I stood and watched the heroes saving the world, wondering if one day I too would be called upon to stand in their place and fight.
Having some way of observing an ongoing raid whilst waiting, or just for the hell of it, might be cool.
MrCaptainMan, Scoop Malloy, The Accelerated Man, Soundman, The Robot From Uranus, Tommy Atkins, The Dirty Promise, The Psystem, VEI8, Atomicide, Tumbleweed Jackson, Robin Copperfield, Ragtime Smith, Jacque Le Black, Tarquin Wilde...and many more.
Its a common misconception that soists do not like to be sociable. I soloed Sister Psyche on my emp defender and a Shivan once. It took me about 5 hours, largely because i was chatting all the while in a few global chat channels. I'd have happily done the same with the iTrials if they'd been soloable. I like to solo in multiplayer games.
MrCaptainMan, Scoop Malloy, The Accelerated Man, Soundman, The Robot From Uranus, Tommy Atkins, The Dirty Promise, The Psystem, VEI8, Atomicide, Tumbleweed Jackson, Robin Copperfield, Ragtime Smith, Jacque Le Black, Tarquin Wilde...and many more.
I soloed a lot as well. Also enjoyed Pugging from time to time, hanging out with my RP Supergroup buddies, and of course the Incarnate trials and running team missions with my friends. Sometimes you feel like a team sometimes you don't.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
Quoting for truth.
I would also like to pose the following question:
How long should it take to get to endgame?
+ 1, and if the leveling content is there and fun and variable enough to be fun to repeat (as it was in CoH), then I'm in no hurry to get to the endgame. I'll get there when I get there and I'll have a ball doing it.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
As for how long it takes to get to the level cap, I would say that, whatever it is, it should feel like it was taking a little too long, so that when you get things like Double XP Weekends etc they fell like a really good opportunity to log on and take advantage of them. Of course, you need to try to make it non-grindy and have enough different content to do as well, so there's a trade off there I realize.
Leveling was fast at low levels and slowed as you got to higher levels in CoX. If this is going to be the case in CoT, they should probably focus on making more content for higher levels and less for lower levels. Of course, if you had content that's independent of level somehow, you could let people do stuff "out of order" or in "non-canonical" order or whatever. I realize this means fighting level 50 Hellions in Atlas Park or something, but you do get to stretch your content more that way.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Thought dump:
I would likely still do raids/trials without the rewards, just to see the content, although I doubt I'd want to repeat any of them more than once or twice a month. Certainly no (ir)regular weekly (or even daily) schedule for such things. I know that's the case because, in whichever game I've participated in the end-game content, the primary motivator (and, ultimately, demotivator) was the gear grind. Even with a regular guild/SG, would we have been as eager to try to defeat the next boss if there was no promise of an upgrade? Definitely not [i]as[/i] eager, so I contend that the lack of a typical gear/power grind would take at least some of the wind out of the sails of the social dynamic. After all, how often have you seen/heard people putting together groups to run content simply because it was more difficult?
That raises another interesting question: what makes a raid? Is requiring a larger than normal number of players (e.g. 16) sufficient? Doubtful. Are enemies that are tougher and hit harder, and especially enemies/bosses that require specific mechanics, sufficient? Now we're getting somewhere. Are the potential rewards the clincher? Definitely.
Games like WoW have all three. Tougher enemies with particular mechanics, but a normal group size, are the standard dungeons/instances (which the requisite somewhat better rewards). Raids require 10+ (or, these days, either 10 or 25) people. As I've pointed out elsewhere, WoW can do this because the trinity model allows the developers to tune encounters quite tightly. What was CoH able to bring to the table? Larger groups and tougher enemies. Of course, in CoH in particular, tougher enemies just means that they take longer to kill, so that alone was not worth a great deal. The developers could not introduce any particularly challenging mechanics because they had absolutely no means to predict what kind of group would attempt the content, and every group needed to have a chance to complete this content.
So, at the end of the day, how did the trials really differ from regular content? The loot/rewards.
If the sole yardstick for end-game content is "best loot/rewards in the game", why should any one type of content be preferable over another? I say this while still in favor of having content that requires groups. However, why is it better to require 10+ people to obtain specific rewards than to make it available to a single person? Why is a crap shoot among a group of people better than a roll of the dice for one person? Because one (perhaps more) people are guaranteed a great reward? How does that improve the experience for the individual, who may have run three or four trials and been left with nothing more than a handful of threads to show for each one?
Lange Rede, kurzer Sinn: the only reason for a game like CoH to adopt the raid model is to copy WoW and/or to appease those players who consider the raid model to be the proper (only) end game.
And, yeah, there's really no way to prevent raids/trials from become obsolete if the only reason they exist is to be a time consuming 'push here, maybe get loot' button. They're literally loot pinatas. Once the pinata is well and truly smashed, players have no choice but to move on.
Best part: I do have a point!
My argument is that, should CoT ever adopt some kind of end-game that's all about "make the character betterer and tougherer and stufferer", it should do so in making the approach as 'broad' as possible. One option is to make all level 50 content (realistically probably anything ~48+, potentially with some kind of 'Incarnate' difficulty setting that provides access to (somewhat) tougher enemies and even unique enemy groups) provide rewards similar to those obtained in trials (threads, merits, etc.). Another option is to create specific content (e.g. Dark Astoria) with mission/story arcs that provide similar rewards to any group content. The main advantage, apart from being able to solo, is that such content could take advantage of MWM's plans to have procedurally generated maps. In theory, this should keep things fresher than running the same trial(s) over and over.
One other thing worth mentioning: the reward scheme should not be as punishing as I hear that it was for Dark Astoria, which was reportedly at around 10% that of the trials. I see no reason that it should be lower than 25% or, to be honest, 50%. Twice the time investment for the same result is nothing to sneeze at.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
It may just be a minor point (as I agree with most of your post), but if a raid was successful all players should (baring a bug) receive a piece of incarnate salvage. True, it may not be the piece you wanted, but more than just a handful of threads.
Was it really that low? I mean, yes, I noticed it was lower than an I-trial, but I guess I was just getting "lucky" with my thread drops. Anyway, I do agree with the solo content being more in the 25-50% effectiveness range.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
I used to solo Hero Alignment missions every day with my Mastermind just to roll up influence and random drops, plus get the Hero Merit every other day. I got SO many Rare recipes that way from B.U.T.L.E.R. or whatever his name was in the Atlas Park secret submarine base. Being an MM, he was also getting like a purple a month just doing that as well. But then MMs were BROKEN in terms of swag generation. WAY broken comopared to most of my other toons, which were mostly Def/Cons who were more built for team-oriented stuff.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
+1 to Darth Fez's WoT. I like that MWM's plans for endgame seem to be aiming for this kind of broad target (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/630570), and especially that they include Alting as part of their endgame concept. This gives me hope that we will continue to get new power sets and there won't be an exclusive focus on trials that saps the hero/villain population from the regular zones. I really dislike MMOs that seem to think that the content for everything below max level is something they write for release and then forget.
Spurn all ye kindle.
There is nothing inherantly wrong with releasing new content for the "higher level" players, especially if you do include other stuff that can apply throughout the previous levels (ie new trade skills, new area's/content for the lower levels to do).
It took up to Oroborus being released for this problem to be resolved with City of Heroes, because up until that point, the only way that a level capped character could experience *lower level* content was by teaming.
Other games, you just took your level capped character to the new area and did the content. Sure, it might be very easy to complete, but you could do it if you so desired.
So its different solutions to the same problem. For games that encourage alting a lot, there is a reason to keep on adding in new content through out the levels, but DON'T forget about the level capped characters. Give them some content that they can do as well (Something that CoX was slightly guilty of).
And for the other games, don't forget about the levelling experience. Add in new stuff for the players who are on their way up to experience.
The amount of time (hours of game play on a single toon) needed to get to the cap is a big factor in this. If leveling is slow, then people will likely be spending more time leveling toons and then making a new one once they get to the cap, if it's fast (like it was in CoX in the last few years) then people will rapidly get to the cap and need more stuff to do once there (like the iTrials, TFs etc).
All this said, I never cared much about new low level content anyway. I mean, I might do it if I'm making a new toon, but since I liked teaming up with people more than anything else, I gravitated to iTrials and TFs a lot. CoX did have Signature Story Arcs and the Praetoria zone for new lowbie solo content. The fact that Praetoria was mostly empty was indicative of the fact that most people simply didn't take long enough to level up that you'd find massive numbers there at any given time, plus the sheer number of different servers fractionated that even more.
I'm also maybe not in the majority in that I like having some added rewards for teamup content. I'm also in favor of actually having "teamup content" in the first place, and I know some people would prefer that all content be soloable, but I disagree with that.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
There were also a few other things that put nails into Praetoria's coffin in my mind, not necessarily in this order though.
1) Death From Below
2) The fact that they changed it so that you didn't have to go via Praetoria to get heroic AT's villain side, and villainous AT's hero side. They opened it up so that you could do it at level 1 instead starting in the zone of your choice.
3) Balance issues in Praetoria; quite a few people said that Praetoria was harder in the lower levels (multiple ambushes for example) compared to the hero/villain side for the same level range. This was an additional deterrent for those wanting to make new characters Gold Side
Having DFB available as well was also another "nail in the coffin", along with the fact that heros could make Villain AT's and vice versa without having to go via Praetoria quite possibly helped nail the coffin into Praetoria as well.
In Praetoria and in the Rogue Isles, Nobody liked you. You were not a 'hero'. All anyone valued was what you could do for them. You were a Mercenary at best.
The few people who Did say, "Wow, that was awesome!" were clearly insane.
Be Well!
Fireheart
First of all, not everyone wanted to be a hero. Secondly, depending on the choices made, you could be quite heroic gold side.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
For all I know either or both of you could be right. In mid year eight of CoX I made a new toon and decided to try the Goldside content to start. I immediately realized I was completely alone in Praetoria whenever I was on that toon and immediately tried to get to Paragon as soon as possible. I blame DFB for that, mainly.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I blame it on the fact that early gold side mobs had a metric ass load of energy damage and almost no smashing/lethal while all typed defense sets were S/L front loaded and didn't have energy protection until the fifth power or so.
Melee Defense sets with typed defenses were insanely weak in Gold content. I saw more team wipes in early gold content than in anything else.
There were more deaths in 1-20 Gold side content than in a KEYES TRIAL.
The original Lady of Ysgard. -Virtue
[img]http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/203/c/5/Updated_Homage_by_Voldine.jpg[/img]
Empyrean Said:
"Is it just me? I had no abrupt feeling of change or of a very different feel of the game when I reached the endgame in CoH, the transition was very smooth. And I LIKED that because leveling in that game was FUN. Why would I want the endgame to be very different from that? And I don't remember ever having that feeling of "nothing fun to do" in CoH."
I did love the Taskforce episodes and other endgame items, Only to add to that I would have loved more continuing missions and new contacts.
I think big raids would be great as long as there were plenty of "Task-force Size" content as well.
You really need both, I don't think limiting it to one or the other would is a good idea.
Tasks Force content would probably have to come first in development I suppose for a newly developed game such as this