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Elaborate Death Traps

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WarBird
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Elaborate Death Traps

Disclaimer: I don't have a well well thought out proposal for this. But...

It occured to me that something that was always missing from the Super-Hero games, but was a staple of the genre are the situations where are our hero is strapped/tied/caged to a bomb/shark tank/laser machine, and has to escape using his/her wits and/or the one secret gadget the villain forgot to search for. Usually on some kind of timer mechanism but some times just an oubliette scenario.

I see this as primarily a solo thing, but it could be the team trapped in a "trash compactor" I suppose. Maybe as a consequence of "dying" in some instances? I remember the cages from a particular Orenbega mission. But that was just bust your way out. Something that takes a little more calculation and, who knows, maybe a timer, too.

I foresee some difficulties, of course. I just thought it was such a big part of being a super hero that it might be worth trying to work something out.

"Do you expect me to figure this out by myself?"

"No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!"

srmalloy
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The only problem I see is

The only problem I see is that such a situation becomes a race between a relatively small staff of developers inventing deathtraps that require different solutions to escape from, and a pool of players several orders of magnitude larger encountering these puzzles, solving them, and posting the solutions online, so that the way to escape from Evil Deathdrap 37 rapidly spreads through the playerbase. And if the solution relies on the player having some specific ability, then you're inherently selecting for the subset of players who have that ability, or who explored the map in exactly the right way to pick up the widget that will defeat the trap, and jerking over everyone else.

Redlynne
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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

"No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!"

Ah ... Goldfinger. The fun part is that when that scene was shown in theaters, the Laser had only been invented like 3 years previously ... and ALREADY it was being used by Archvillains!

Essentially, what you're asking for WarBird is a "puzzle" that the Players need to solve to get out of a predicament (either of their own making, in the case of Team Wipe means Go To Prison(s), or one of the Mission Writer's making), and preferably one that doesn't necessarily require DPS in order to "solve" the challenge. Time Limits could potentially be assigned to various phases of such puzzle solving work, although it is strongly recommended that scenario writers SIGNPOST such adversities before they come into force, because Players do go AFK for all kinds of reasons (bio, wife aggro, etc.).


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kitsune9tails
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I definitely want this sort

I definitely want this sort of thing to be in the game (although perhaps not at launch). I consider it a specific sub-category of the concept of 'branching missions' (or as we are currently internally calling them for various reasons, 'episodes').

Just as an Episode may have a 'branch' that leads to a different encounter based on dialogue choices presented to an NPC, an Episode could have a 'sidequest' or 'branch' consisting of 'escape this situation' that triggers upon team wipe.

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WarBird
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Well, I'm glad this is

Well, I'm glad this is getting a generally positive response, so far. Yeah, I anticipate a certain amount of cleverness necessary to make this playable by any character. That's why developers get paid such great piles of money, right? ;)

And yes, I know the "Perfect Solution" would be made available pretty quickly. But don't forget there are plenty of players who don't troll the boards looking for every possible shortcut.

The "Necessary Widget" might be something like rescuing an NPC early in the mission, who finds themselves in a position to help you later. Therefore wouldn't require the solo hero in question to have anything particular of their own. Just classic "Lion & Thorn" type of thing. This would easily lend itself to the team-based prison scenarios as well

It could also be a strictly intellectual puzzle kind of thing. Secret World is rife with those,(but I confess, many of them are rather obscure.) Or it could be something like finding the timing of the shifting force fields so you can slip between them.

Just something of a break from the key to everything being "Pour as much damage at it as possible."

More ideas for Kitsune, please!

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Fully support.

Fully support.

Secondary Argument:
Also gonna go ahead and say if NPC enemies don'e actively use Crowd Control then players will not create characters with Crowd Control Resistance in their character design. This often leads to the "We hate CC in PvP" crowd feeling justified in their desire to be resistant to CC without specifically building it into their character design. The more enemies that display their ability to use traps and CC the less I'll hear this argument in any PvP models.

I am aware this scenario presented in this thead is not about CC traps but this is the lens through which I advocate because so many games get it so wrong.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

Redlynne
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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

And yes, I know the "Perfect Solution" would be made available pretty quickly. But don't forget there are plenty of players who don't troll the boards looking for every possible shortcut.

The Perfect Solution only works if it is consistent and constant. If there are variables involved (and they don't even have to be particularly "difficult" ones) then you wind up with an array of answers, in which the solution changes a little bit every time the puzzle is played.

As an example of the thing I'm talking about, suppose you've got a "revolving door" that opens once every 5 seconds for 2 seconds. Boring and predictable. The perfect solution is ... easy to figure out.

Now suppose if instead you've got a "revolving door" that opens once every 5 seconds ... +/- up to 2 seconds ... and stays open for 2 seconds ... +/- up to 1 second. Now you've got a situation where the door opens up "randomly" every 3-7 seconds (1d5+2? 2d3+1?) and stays open for 1-3 seconds (1d3?) at a time ... meaning the door can cycle open and closed in anywhere from 4-10 seconds (total), which is a lot harder to predict than just once every 5+2=7 seconds in the first example, even though on average they yield the same performance. Even though the window in which the door is open can be longer in the random version, the sheer unpredictability of when the revolving door will open makes the randomized challenge more difficult to accomplish. It turns the "solution" into something of a "you have to pay attention" deal in order to succeed, rather than just being able to go look up the answer on a website. Indeed, even if you DO go and look up the answer outside the game, there's still a human control element required to overcome the randomness generated by the challenge.

So the basic idea is that if you're going to be "playing cards" you might as well go to the expense of "shuffling the deck" before you "deal" those cards to the Players so that there isn't one singular "perfect play" that short circuits the challenge as soon as it is discovered and disseminated.


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Lin Chiao Feng
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What if the perfect solution

What if the perfect solution is dependent on other factors, say an outcome from earlier in the mission, or even from the character's alignment? To borrow Red's example above, what if a "heroic" character could hold the door open? What if a "villain" character could grab any convenient NPC corpse and use it to jam the door open? What if, given Sufficient Firepower, you could just blow the door up?

What if these choices determined the number and alert status of mobs later on?

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

Abnormal Joe
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Probably the best example of

Probably the best example of this sort of thing is the base design function in Evil Genius.

http://www.n1nj4.com/EvilPlanet/TheGame/traps.php

Don't know how this would pan out in normal missions, but as a part of base/lair raiding subgame this could potentially be pretty awesome.

-joe

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Clave Dark 5
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While we haven't got

While we haven't got mechanics of the game nailed down yet, one way I think it could go would be something like this:

[voice comes in over a loud speaker]"So, WarBird, we meet again! You thought after besting me atop that cauldron of boiling pudding you'd seen the last of me eh? Well Doctor Mechanicus doesn't defeat so easily! Now that you're here in my trap, I can tell you things are going to get pretty rough for you, you wimpy hero! See all these crates scattered around this seemingly ordinary warehouse? Many of them have some lovely proximity mines in them, I do so enjoy a good proximity mine, don't you? - so don't get too close! Others have some of my Killazoid Bots hidden inside and oh yes, they're ALSO set with proximity detectors.

But the best part! ONE crate has a key to the door back outside! ONE! But you of course have to get close to open it, right? Have fun looking for it n the five minutes you have before a larger bomb I have hidden beneath the foundation goes off, WarBird!!

Oh yes, almost forgot: I also kidnapped some random people off the street and tied them up then scattered them around like so much confetti. But not too close to any crates, THOSE are for you and you alone. Have fun!"

Assuming the hero failed, I guess you'd just wake up in the hospital (or our game's equivalent). Which seems sort of bland an ending, really.

But I continue plotting...

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Speaking of deathtraps. I'd

Speaking of deathtraps. I'd like to have missions we can lose instead of trying over and over until we beat it or get more and more people!

End of the TF. The team wipes. The AV runs off and TF is failed!

WarBird
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

The Perfect Solution only works if it is consistent and constant. If there are variables involved (and they don't even have to be particularly "difficult" ones) then you wind up with an array of answers, in which the solution changes a little bit every time the puzzle is played.
As an example of the thing I'm talking about, suppose you've got a "revolving door" that opens once every 5 seconds for 2 seconds. Boring and predictable. The perfect solution is ... easy to figure out.
Now suppose if instead you've got a "revolving door" that opens once every 5 seconds ... +/- up to 2 seconds ... and stays open for 2 seconds ... +/- up to 1 second. Now you've got a situation where the door opens up "randomly" every 3-7 seconds (1d5+2? 2d3+1?) and stays open for 1-3 seconds (1d3?) at a time ... meaning the door can cycle open and closed in anywhere from 4-10 seconds (total), which is a lot harder to predict than just once every 5+2=7 seconds in the first example, even though on average they yield the same performance. Even though the window in which the door is open can be longer in the random version, the sheer unpredictability of when the revolving door will open makes the randomized challenge more difficult to accomplish. It turns the "solution" into something of a "you have to pay attention" deal in order to succeed, rather than just being able to go look up the answer on a website. Indeed, even if you DO go and look up the answer outside the game, there's still a human control element required to overcome the randomness generated by the challenge.
p>

::nodds:: This is basically what I meant by the "shifting force field" analogy. Leave it to Red to flesh it out with actual numbers.

WarBird
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::sigh:: I still don't have

::sigh:: I still don't have the hang of these [block quotes]

WarBird
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Clave Dark 5 wrote:
Clave Dark 5 wrote:

While we haven't got mechanics of the game nailed down yet, one way I think it could go would be something like this:
[voice comes in over a loud speaker]"So, WarBird, we meet again! You thought after besting me atop that cauldron of boiling pudding you'd seen the last of me eh? Well Doctor Mechanicus doesn't defeat so easily! Now that you're here in my trap, I can tell you things are going to get pretty rough for you, you wimpy hero! See all these crates scattered around this seemingly ordinary warehouse? Many of them have some lovely proximity mines in them, I do so enjoy a good proximity mine, don't you? - so don't get too close! Others have some of my Killazoid Bots hidden inside and oh yes, they're ALSO set with proximity detectors.
But the best part! ONE crate has a key to the door back outside! ONE! But you of course have to get close to open it, right? Have fun looking for it n the five minutes you have before a larger bomb I have hidden beneath the foundation goes off, WarBird!!
Oh yes, almost forgot: I also kidnapped some random people off the street and tied them up then scattered them around like so much confetti. But not too close to any crates, THOSE are for you and you alone. Have fun!"
Assuming the hero failed, I guess you'd just wake up in the hospital (or our game's equivalent). Which seems sort of bland an ending, really.
But I continue plotting...

You've certaily got the feel of the gloating villain that would make this fun! And this could certainly be one of many varieties of this type of mission. Still, this could come down to plain luck whether you can find the right crate in time. I'd rather have something to figure out, like a cryptogram or "only the right series of buttons will open the door, the wrong combination blows up the building." Then present me with a way to figure it out BEFORE I start randomly punching buttons. OTH, having the choice of how to accomplish it, based on my own strengths and abilities has its merits, also.

If there was a way to randomize/recycle the puzzle solutions that would be ideal.

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When the Villain starts

When the Villain starts monologuing, that's your cue that you need to get out of the Death Trap. If I could find the clip with Frozone and Mr. Incredible in the car listening to the police scanner before the fire, I'd link it.


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Lin Chiao Feng
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Clave Dark 5 wrote:
Clave Dark 5 wrote:

Assuming the hero failed, I guess you'd just wake up in the hospital (or our game's equivalent). Which seems sort of bland an ending, really.

What, it would be better if there were a cutscene of the funeral for the innocent people you couldn't save?

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

Redlynne
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Clave Dark 5 wrote:
Clave Dark 5 wrote:

Assuming the hero failed, I guess you'd just wake up in the hospital (or our game's equivalent). Which seems sort of bland an ending, really.

FOOLISH MORTAL!!!

When the Player fails to escape a Death Trap, the game LOGS YOU OUT of the game(!) ... with a message informing you of your failure to escape in time.

You can, of course, log right back in ... and when you do, you'll zone in to the inside of a Hospital ... but getting "kicked from the game" (even if only briefly) ought to be enough of an adrenaline crash (to the Player) to incentivize Players to succeed rather than fail the challenge.


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While I love the concept.

While I love the concept.

I'm going to take my "restate my position" card and ask for the devs and writing team to tone down the "Camp" and turn up the "Modern" for the lore and feel of this game's objectives.

From what I see above I am scared that the fun of the forum may be translated into the game. Even kids want to be treated like adults

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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Your camp is someone else's

Your camp is someone else's entertainment and your 'modern adults' is someone else's pornography. Sometimes, fun is fun and doesn't need to be analyzed.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

While I love the concept.
I'm going to take my "restate my position" card and ask for the devs and writing team to tone down the "Camp" and turn up the "Modern" for the lore and feel of this game's objectives.
From what I see above I am scared that the fun of the forum may be translated into the game. Even kids want to be treated like adults

Nothing wrong with a little camp. As long as they don't over do it.

Take CoH's Freakshow. At first they were great villains! Then one bad campy joke and the whole group became one big campy joke.

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<-----is a fan of campy

<-----is a fan of campy superherodom. I suspect a lot of other folks are as well. Deadpool anyone?

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Brand X
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Abnormal Joe wrote:
Abnormal Joe wrote:

<-----is a fan of campy superherodom. I suspect a lot of other folks are as well. Deadpool anyone?
-joe

Love Deadpool since the beginning. I miss his butterfly swords! Hate that he's gone so overboard. There is a good balance for him, and treating his 4th wall breaking as more of an insanity thing is a much better way to go than what they have done lately.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

While I love the concept.
I'm going to take my "restate my position" card and ask for the devs and writing team to tone down the "Camp" and turn up the "Modern" for the lore and feel of this game's objectives.
From what I see above I am scared that the fun of the forum may be translated into the game. Even kids want to be treated like adults

Please do not mistake an idle forum post from just one lower level writer for what the nature of the game will be. That was just in a spirit of fun and nothing else.

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A few points:

A few points:

1) I love this idea.

2) Got NO WAY of knowing how it can be done. Some good suggestions have been made though.

3) As has been stated, this could be a lot of fun if it weren't overdone.

4) Even CoX had minigames (remember the timed minimissions inside the Mayhem robberies?) and those were pretty cool.

5) How about we tie this to either certain named villains OR the Nemesis that we've seen in CO (only done better)? Seriously, not EVERY villain in the comics used death traps and the ones that did got a reputation for it. So what if we tied this idea to certain bad guys only at first? Then anyone who didn't want to do the deathtrap could just drop that mission?

Later on, if/when we get a Nemesis system, we can offer it as an option for THAT as well.

As for the defeat, I have felt for a long time that with the exception of certain missions required to continue story arcs, the players should be able to fail. A Reputation System has been suggested (several, actually) but not confirmed. Personally, if the players fail the mission then the enemy escapes. No mission end bonus...no chance to complete it. There's your defeat 'penalty' as it were. If there's a Reputation system then that takes a hit too. The players who like the dark and gritty can RP it that the innocents went boom. The ones who prefer a more four-color ending can assume that they wound up in hospital but survived or were rescued by another hero.

In a team setting, the team does not fail unless EVERY member is defeated. Makes retreating a viable tactic (you can keep tab on the bad guys, rescue your friends etc). As long as one team member is still up, the mission continues and there is a chance of success.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Clave Dark 5 wrote:
Clave Dark 5 wrote:

Please do not mistake an idle forum post from just one lower level writer for the nature of the game will be. That was just in a spirit of fun and nothing else.

I know. It's not for any particular post.. just a theme I'm seeing on the forum lots of camp. The divo in me thinks its great fun and hilarity. But I hope the game has a completely different tone than these forums.

"Foolish *Insert Noun*" was the particular trigger, but it's not the first (and wont be the last) i see of it. This isn't the particular thread to discuss it but I thought it a good diversionary topic.

- -

Back to the point. Yay for traps and dire situations and alternative mission goals.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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I don't want to go overboard

I don't want to go overboard with the camp, either. The Goldfinger example posted earlier is kind of the base level I had in mind. If you went further, I think you'd have to up the "creepy level". Think Joker, instead of Riddler.

I think what you're viewing as a dangerous level of camp is just an easy reference to stereotypical comic memes.