This is a repost of a comment I made on Kickstarter, this morning.
I have a suggestion for something that always bugged me about CoH/CoV that we now have a chance to fix: Duplication.
It seems to me that the programming that goes into the Mastermind power sets could easily be adapted into a duplication power; you could even do subsets where the hero and dupes were essentially duplicating Enforcers, Rangers, and Commanders (Brawlers, Blasters, Controllers), with the powers for additional dupes being interspersed with powers for the "base class".
At very least, a redux of the "Decoy" power from the CoH Illusions power set could be made to look like the character using the power, rather than the generic pastel heroes that don't really fool anyone.
Edit - To be clear: I'm not talking about the mini-me, non-combat pet available in the add-ons, I'm talking about a real power set where you have minions that look like you, move like you, and have at least a lower-level (or less effective) of the same powers you do.
It was posted in the comments of the Kickstarter that the tech exists, and is actually present in the "Mini-Me" style Instant Sidekick pet. They're being referred to as "Mirror Pets."
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Looking for full-sized, Jamie-Maddrox-style duplication, though. It's certainly not a deal-breaker to not have it, i just can't see any reason that CoX excluded it, much less why CoT should.
I brought this up back on the old forum. I too am wanting to have a squad of me ruining around. Never got much of a reprocess about it but I think the possibility is high as some of the systems that I though could be used were already in there. It could just be that one of the skins for your pets could be yourself.
In one of the recent podcast interviews Warcabbit mentioned that they're looking into duplication type powers, and as a result of looking into them, we have the Instant Sidekick pet working as a sort of tech demo/applied concept towards eventual usage of the Mirror Pet tech in a full-on Duplication set for the Master class. But it's likely down the road after the start of the game.
I'm just saying the underlying tech for what you want is already going to be present in the game at release, though the powerset may not be. ^_^
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That's really all I can ask- the possibility for the future, and that someone at MMW is at least open to the idea. Thanks, Von Krieger.
The roughest part about some character themes, Duplication among them, is a lack of DEPTH. Maddrox (dumb name for a hero btw, just sayin) duplicates himself...and that's it. It's cool for Tanks and Scrappers who (with SS for instance) don't really need a secondary theme.
Granted, I would LOVE to have a Master set that is basically clones of me, but there's not too many places my head takes me other than that.
It's like Stretching. How many mainstream comic characters do Stretching? Maybe six? Certainly less than ten. That's because it's a rough theme to make into something UNIQUE.
Not saying that I don't want some sort of Duplication set...I would love one. But I'm more concerned with what ELSE they'd be able to do to make them different.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
CoH didn't have the tech to do Duplication for a long time. Once they developed Doppelganger tech; it was feasible. The trick was: what Archetype?
Mastermind was the obvious one, but what powers would your duplicate have? They couldn't have too many or it's be worse than Kinetic Masterminds. Too little, and who'd play them?
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Maddrox is actually the dude's last name. He's also referred to as Multiple Man.
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The reason that most duplicators in comic have only that power is because otherwise they would overshadow almost every other superhero. Same this villeins take any established villein with powers (or good gadgets) and give him the power to duplicate and he could beat out most of the others. Only people who are exempt from this are the ones that are somewhat goofy like Plasticman.
Some powers might be extrapolated logically from Duplication, but I gotta say they'd be a mixed bag. Healing yourself by bringing in a fully-or-partially-healed duplicate while taking yourself out (the visual might be a momentary blur), but this raises the question of is there ever really a 'real' version of yourself. Producing several duplicates only to immediately re-absorb them, the deliberate effort being to strengthen yourself (some super-strength for a brief time) or be faster (also temporary). Reviving yourself by, again, zapping yourself out of existence while bringing in a fully-healed version of yourself. Like a long-ago cartoon (The Impossibles, I believe), 'teleport' by producing a duplicate in front of yourself a few feet, then the same a few feet in front of that duplicate, while the first duplicate/real self is absorbed, and so on and so on. This almost-instantaneous duplication-and-reabsorption form of travel of course would have some kind of limit in distance, and might be restricted in other ways, like CoX's Teleport. I'd have to think more about how Duplication could be more effective offensively, instead of just 'suddenly 6 guys with some knowledge in fighting/martial arts are surrounding you' - each single one of them being relatively 'normal' and thus easily taken out by your average super.
I had suggested Energy Clones for Masters, like funhouse reflections of the original character. Then the powers could be slightly different for each pet. This guy does energy melee, this one blast, this one force fields, but all based on energy. Another twist could be alternate Shards. Like Statesman summoning Tyrant thru an instaportal for backup. Then when your offline, your not really offline your in a different shard being one of your "Other's" pets.
Yeah, that sounds like a Jedi. Massacre a whole room full of people, then stand around apologizing for it. - Swtor NPC
So, the way I'd do it is that you have three classifications of Duplicators (based on the Ranger, Enforcer, and Commander), each with a Duplication power as their Primary power, and then a choice of a standard Secondary power for the classification that they otherwise mimic. The actual Primary power set progression for a Duplicator "Ranger" might look like this:
Level-Power-Effect
1-Basic Ranged Attack-[Ranged, Moderate Damage(Lethal), Foe –Defense]
1-Basic Duplication-[One Duplicate, has same powers as Proginator]
2-Ranged “Sniper” Attack-[Ranged, High Damage(Lethal), Foe Knockback]
6-Trois De Moi-[Second Duplicate, both have same powers as Proginator]
8-Ranged AoE Attack-[Ranged(Targeted Area of Effect), Moderate Damage(Lethal/Smash), Knockback]
12-Four the Horde-[Third Duplicate, again with the same powers]
18-Strobe-[Defensive power (duplicates blink in and out, making it hard to target non-AoE attacks)]
26-Take the Fifth-[Fourth Duplicate, you know the drill]
32-Reabsorption-[Averages out hit points with dupe reabsorbed]
The progression is loosely based on the Mastermind progression from CoH, filled in with not-quite-random musings about what might make up such a power.
As the duplicates essentially increase the powers of the Proginator, balance against the other classes could either take the form of much less power ramp-up with levelling, or a hidden debuff that reduces the power for every active duplicate, or some combination thereof. The basic idea of the power is that your dupes make up for a weaker personal power progression, similar to the Pet classes in most MMO's where the base character is a bit weaker for his level because it's expected that his pet(s) will even him out.
Or maybe they have the same powers, but the Dupes don't have any of the Proginator's power enhancements...
And THIS is why a group of dedicated geeks can be dangerous! Some of these ideas are BRILLIANT!
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
The tech would certainly be there from what we've seen. how and when it fits into development would be the main thing (if you have a tech that would support 5 different options and one that would support only 1, which do you do first when you're aiming for variety?)
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it, but I won't be beside mself if it doesn't make the initial release.
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Sorry, couldn't resist.
Now, we're talkin' :D
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I think that the Master classification might be perfect for this once it is released comes out. Of course how well this concept works might depend on how much the devs let us customize the pets.
It might work better if duplication was a tertiary power that can be selected by archetypes the same way leadership,invisibility, and travel powers worked. Then the minions can be set to tank, support, or damage with programming to do the job to the best of there ability with your power pool.
I have thought that it could be done that way, too, but having it's own place as a Primary power set makes it a bit more rare. If everyone could opt in, assuming there's nothing to give up except waiting on a travel power, why wouldn't you? Access via a Tertiary set would make it too common of a min/max thing. At least, that's why I thought it would be better as a Primary. I'd be happy any way it went, really.
possibly but by not many people want to step off the main power tracks to get many of the powers as far as I could tell. Think of it this way would you like your tank to give up up to 4 of his combat powers to be able to multiply? Its a big trade off so I I figure that it won't be a common pick Not that many people I ever saw in CoX used many of the Tertiary powers.They might have at higher level but mid level most people stuck to the main track except for travel powers. I always saw the tertiary powers as the spice of the game there to add a interesting kick or theme to the game. I had a ghost based blaster so I dipped into both the concealment and presence pools so I could become intangible and scary. There will always be people who want to twink their character but that doesn't mean we should hold something back from those that like to build to theme.
This would be a full Operator/Master set, not a 4 power tertiary set. Its the bread and butter of the whole class. Pets is why you PLAY a master class. You play a Tank class to be a Juggernaut. You dont NEED a pet as a Tank. (except maybe your wifey as a healer, teehee.) I dont even think pets will be in the controller class this time. Giving pets to everyone would just render Masters useless.
Yeah, that sounds like a Jedi. Massacre a whole room full of people, then stand around apologizing for it. - Swtor NPC
And now that I think about it that would just make the master class a bit more difficult to program as it would make it a one man army as unless otherwise the set the clones could summon their own minions so you would have 2-3 masters with 3-4 minions each which is a little nuts.
If you wanted to run Duplication in a Mastermind fashion, I would expect that you'd want to do it as some kind of variation on Confuse that would in effect be a kind of Copy Foe sort of power. So you'd have a Duplicate Minion, Duplicate Lieutenant, Duplicate Boss kind of progression, where the Duplicates you create are of the selected Foe and are just copies of them, except that they're allied to you, and the "originals" won't aggro on the Duplicates until the Duplicates attack (thus betraying their loyalties).
In a way, you could think of this as being a sort of "offset" of Confusion powers, where instead of "turning" a Foe to your side (temporarily), you'd "copy" a Foe and be able to issue Mastermind Commands to that Duplicate of a Foe. The typical Upgrade Powers of the Mastermind would have no real functionality in this case, since you're literally copying NPC Foes "as is" and would have to become something else. Duplicates would be "persistent" until defeated or dismissed, but you'd need to have a Foe NPC selected in order to summon another Duplicate, and you could only summon another Duplicate if you weren't already at your max limit for Minions/Lieutenant/Boss with that specific power. Possible upgrade alternative powers that suggest themselves would be what amount to Passive powers that enable you to create Duplicates with fewer limitations ... things like being allowed to Duplicate a Foe who has been Defeated (so you aren't limited to only being able to Duplicate Foes who are alive and hostile), or being able to Duplicate a Foe without requiring Line of Sight, so you could Target Lock from a distance, duck back around behind a corner and do your Duplication work out of sight of the Foes you are Duplicating. That kind of thing.
Ultimately, this sort of take on a Duplication Master (think Nemesis Automatons!) would have an awful lot in common with the Confusion Mastermind that people brought up occasionally in the CoH Forums, where instead of summoning a set Pet type, instead you'd just co-opt the Foes you encountered into [i]becoming your Pets[/i] via Confusion. So you'd Confuse some of the Foes you came across and they would "switch sides" and answer to your Mastermind Commands, instead of just acting autonomously like they did under Confusion done by Illusion Control and Mind Control. The Confuse Minion/Confuse Lieutenant/Confuse Boss powers could either be "permanent" (until dismissed) by having an incredibly long duration, or they could have been "temporary" by having a duration of 5-10 minutes. The Level 18 Power could have been a Mass Confusion sort of thing lifted directly out of Mind Control, thereby giving the powerset a flavor somewhat akin to Gang War (in a sense). The "upgrade" powers in the set could have been something as simple as a Passive granting a global bonus to your own Confuse Durations (so it would act a bit like a "mastery" kind of thing) at Level 6, and the Level 32 Power could have been something which modifies your Confuse Minion/Confuse Lieutenant/Confuse Boss powers so as to have a small Target AoE Confuse effect on casting for a short Duration (think like 5-10 seconds) in a small radius, so as to create a diversionary disruption in a group for a short span of time.
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Old post and I've read other posts concerning duplication, but I was thinking about a character I made up that is supposed to be able to self-duplicate I wish I could make. I'd prefer Duplication as a tertiary set listed with Concealment/Stealth. I feel it's a stretch to be primary or secondary, and limits you--just as MWM basically got rid of the stalker AT, but you will be able to design a stalker build between Classification/Specification/Mastery/Tertiary. Multiple Man's most notable power of course was his duplication ability, but he was still a formidable fighter in offense/defense, which I would make his primary/secondary. The reason why I don't like it as Master pets is from what I recall, there's hierarchy of pets w/ Masters, and Duplicates are somewhat depreciated versions of yourself; equal to each other in rank.
In my rendition, the original character would suffer a stat reduction upon duplication--like 25% off your stats or what ever would be transferred to your first dups, reducing you to 75%. On the dup's death, the % would reabsorb into you plus gain a stat bonus of some sort, implying you've absorbed their experience you didn't gain yourself. The duplicates would not be controllable like Mastermind pets. Duplicates would stay in a certain radius to prevent chasing, but they'll attack the closest mob attacking you. Here's what I'm thinking:
1 - Self Duplication (toggle)
You produce 2 Duplicates. Untoggle to reabsorb. Active until untoggled. Quick recharge.
2 - Amplification (clickable)
Permanently increases Duplicates power to 40% until death/reabsorption, but you remain at 75% power. Moderate recharge.
3 - Multiplier (toggle)
You produce 2 additional Duplicates, reducing you to 50% power. Untoggle to reabsorb 2 additional. Active until untoggled. Quick recharge.
4 - Assemble (clickable)
Directs all Duplicates to assist the mob you're targeting with added 20% bonus to all Duplicates, including yourself. Duration 20 seconds. Slow recharge.
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