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Dual Tech, Triple Tech... Octuple Tech?

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5 OClock Shadow
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Dual Tech, Triple Tech... Octuple Tech?

Once in a while, I think of old RPGs, and see if there are any forgotten features that could be applied to today's MMOs; specifically CoT. One of the coolest systems was from Chrono Trigger: the Dual Tech and Triple Tech attacks. For those who aren't familiar with Chrono Trigger, it was an active time battle system rpg, you could choose 3 out of 7 characters at one time to fight during battle, and you could choose from a number preset abilities that would utilize 2 or 3 people into one single attack called Dual and Triple Techs.

For example: two melee characters would rush at an enemy simultaneously, and cross attack them in an X pattern, adding double damage: http://youtu.be/ybABWUgE8ro

Or, one of the characters would jump in the air, and stab the enemy with his sword. While the sword is protruding from the enemy, another character would strike the sword with lightning, applying high electric damage along with his sword attack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6aMZ4WI6c8

In CoT, I see there'd be a short chain of key strokes players would initiate the tech ability:

1. Player 1 toggles Dual Tech hot key, which begins the queue
2. A notification would show on teammates' screens, stating the dual tech can be engaged.
3. Corresponding powers would blink on the teammates' hot key trays.
4. First player to click their blinking power would execute the dual tech.

The blinking/queue idea is kind of similar to dual blades combos in CoX. At higher levels, there can be a queue system for the entire team to eventually get in on a Octuple Tech attack. It'd have a time span for everyone to get queued up, still able to attack while they wait for the chain to be completed. If the chain isn't made, then the toggle will have to recharge as if it was used (or not!).

EverQuest 2 has something similar though it was a little clunky, and there isn't really a graphical interaction between characters like in Chrono Trigger. I'd definitely want to see characters ollie-ooping an enemy, and not only show in the numbers. I think this would be awesome against an AV, plus it looks badass. I figure there'd be a lot of code to go into a system like this, but besides that, what do you think?

5 OClock Shadow
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TTheDDoctor
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This borders on twitch combat

This borders on twitch combat, but then again Dual Blades and Street Justice were more or less making the same offense. I absolutely love the idea of such exquisite teamwork, and frankly I've been dying to see something of that caliber since I was... like... 11 or something.

Anyway, +1.

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So Cool. Issue 7 stuff maybe

So Cool. Issue 7 stuff maybe. +2.

5 OClock Shadow
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Thanks :D The more

Thanks :D The more interaction a team can have together, the better. Especially if it actually amounts to something.

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Darth Fez
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Would group content have to

Would group content have to be tuned to assume that the players will use this 'dual tech', and use it well? Should the game assume it would not be used, potentially allowing any group that does use it to trivialize group content?

Would it be opt-in ("LFG, dual tech ppl only") or would it always be active?

I see the potential for an interesting mini-game in this, but it is not something I would want to see in general grouping. I want to be active in and support the group in my own way, not have to wait for my 'queue up now' button to light up and then wait for everyone else to finish queuing up (lather, rinse, repeat) or, worse still, deal with "omg u didnt take tech powerz?!!!" drama.

On the other hand, this could be very cool for an operator powerset.

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5 OClock Shadow
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I would see these having long

I would see these having long recharge times. The higher the tech, the longer the recharge. I highly doubt it will be group defining, nor will it be the only thing a group would do. These aren't mega ultimate attacks or anything, though they can get quite powerful at higher levels. It could slowly change the tides of battle if used correctly. It isn't very much different than two people attacking at once, except this would have more style in it's delivery, plus a small added bonus perhaps. There wouldn't be any waiting involved as you should still be able to attack while your dual tech is queued. I'm only thinking there'd be 3 - 5 seconds for someone to respond though. It'd be relatively quick.

Either you'd have to earn the multi-tech attacks through a story arc, or it could be available every 10 - 15 levels. The story arcs would add more content into the game, but just having them available might alleviate grinding every alt.

lol I can see someone bitching that their dual tech wasn't taken though. I have met several people who don't even read their chat bar, let alone any notification that flashed across their screen. So no matter what, if a feature is based on them reacting to something similar on their UI, it will be overlooked. Nothing that should prevent an interactive feature like this from being available.

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Redlynne
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The Elder Scrolls Online has

The Elder Scrolls Online has something comparable to this. It's called "Synergies" in their system.

The way it works is that Player 1 activates an ability that has a Synergy effect built into it. Players 2+ (ie. not Player 1) can then press their Synergy hotkey to activate the Synergy ability/effect. Naturally, this requires Players 2+ to be in the right position(s) to do so (think PBAoE or Target AoE if it helps) and they have to "click the button" for the Synergy to activate, but it does allow for Player 1 to do something and Players 2+ to take advantage of that in some way that is pre-defined by the ability used by Player 1.

An example of this sort of thing is the Consuming Darkness Ultimate ability for Nightblades. The Nightblade (Player 1) uses this power, and then Players 2+ are granted the ability to Gain Invisibility by clicking their Synergy hotkey while within the AoE of the Consuming Darkness. So it's kind of like an optional accept of Buff.

There are, of course, numerous other examples in the game, and most of them (but not all of them) are tied to Ultimate abilities. Some of them are simple "use this ability to hurt enemies and then allies can magnify the effect on the enemy" sorts of things.

In a City of Heroes/City of Titans context, you could even potentially use this sort of notion as a way to augment Auras, such as the old Leadership Toggles. Something like Toggle power grants X effect, but if you actively click the Synergy effect for it, you gain X+Y effects, where Y is temporary and X is "permanent" while within the AoE of Aura. In essence then, you're adding the availability of Temp Powers to Allies by using your own Powers.


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Ok so here is an out of the

Ok so here is an out of the box comment that will probably land with a thud: I like the idea. Let's see if we can incorporate it into the AI (maybe with a RNG?) and make it a high level group enemy ability. It would be something players would undoubtedly envy and could serve as an increased risk for letting enemies stick around too long. It's probably unfair, but the only framework I have to evaluate such an idea is CoH. In that game, I do not ever recall people asking for more things to improve team synergy... probably because teams of every conceivable composition were steamrolling through content and leveling at what I consider breakneck speed anyway. Seriously, if CoT is going to be like CoH in this regard (and early indications that it will... to promote differing successful team dynamics like it was in CoH if for nothing else) then I believe we don't need still more things to make teams more powerful. But I do think it would be an interesting challenge to face.

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We had enemies who could self

We had enemies who could self-rez, become all but invulnerable, and chain mez players, so some kind of neat coordinated attack scarcely sounds unlikely. In particular if quick action on the player's part can make it fizzle. Such a thing sounds ideal for the more military/tactical oriented enemies and the special attacks could vary. E.g. 3 enemies achieve a, 4 achieve B, 5 achieve B+, 6 achieve C, etc.

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Redlynne, yeah that's

Redlynne, yeah that's basically it. However, I think this should only be done with active powers. I'm not sure toggles should be involved with a dual tech. Why would a Stalwart be able to buff teammates with resistance or an assassin to endow stealth? They aren't Guardians or Commanders, so the tech should still be within their limits. Unless of course that character gets a tertiary "Invis ally", then it makes sense for it to be used in a dual tech.

I see the dual techs in a Classification grid (sort of like the Classification/Specification Chart, except it would show the dual tech instead of specification). Each Classification combination would have a tech tree of 3 or so variations you could unlock down the line. Like medium single strike + medium single strike = option 1, medium single strike + low cone strike = option 2.

Enforcer + Enforcer = X Strike
Enforcer + Ranger = Lightning Leap Strike
Enforcer + Enforcer + Ranger = Lightning X Strike
Ranger + Master = Fiery Pets of Doom Stampede
Stalwart+Guardian+Commander = Frozen Stomp Regeneration (bonus aoe knockdown/hold/dmg enemy, +regen team)

Fire Away wrote:

Ok so here is an out of the box comment that will probably land with a thud: I like the idea. Let's see if we can incorporate it into the AI (maybe with a RNG?) and make it a high level group enemy ability. It would be something players would undoubtedly envy and could serve as an increased risk for letting enemies stick around too long. It's probably unfair, but the only framework I have to evaluate such an idea is CoH. In that game, I do not ever recall people asking for more things to improve team synergy... probably because teams of every conceivable composition were steamrolling through content and leveling at what I consider breakneck speed anyway. Seriously, if CoT is going to be like CoH in this regard (and early indications that it will... to promote differing successful team dynamics like it was in CoH if for nothing else) then I believe we don't need still more things to make teams more powerful. But I do think it would be an interesting challenge to face.

Man, I'm not sure I'd want to give that to AI lol, but it is an interesting twist. I'd hate to have enemies doing this to me while soloing or if my team is on the brink of winning/failing. I think I'd prefer this PC only; however, it could be a good challenge to face named bosses who can do this with their minions as you suggested.

You're definitely right about teams steam rolling through mobs, so it most likely would be used rarely in that case. Players always switch up their play style in this case, so other powers aren't utilized here either. However, fighting AVs, it would still have a place, and help change the tides of battle.

5 OClock Shadow
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Redlynne
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Fire Away wrote:
Fire Away wrote:

Let's see if we can incorporate it into the AI (maybe with a RNG?) and make it a high level group enemy ability.

Nemesis Lieutenants casting Vengeance upon death of Allies was bad enough, thanks.

Fire Away wrote:

It would be something players would undoubtedly envy and could serve as an increased risk for letting enemies stick around too long.

I don't care for this idea, simply because it then produces what amount to DPS Checks. If you can't muster X DPS in Y span of time, you'll lose the battle because the Foes will deploy Z to crush you and then you'll never catch up. That works for a Hardcore mode gaming crowd, but less so for a Casual group of players. The way you're describing it, you'd turn encounters into even more of a "race to defeat" than they ordinarily would be (or even need to be).


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5 OClock Shadow
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Yeah, burst damage from

Yeah, burst damage from multiple enemies would piss me off haha. Not a bad idea if there's an option to make it active on your missions for extra exp upon defeating those characters or something.

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Everquest 2 did something

Everquest 2 did something similar to that as well, albeit very primitive. I dont remember the specifics because it has been a very long time, but thing was you did a move and a wheel came up showing next move type to do and you could either do it or a party member could advance it for some benefits.

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Yeah, I referenced that in

Yeah, I referenced that in the original post also stating that it was clunky, and had minimal to zero visual satisfaction. I'd really like to see characters leaping over each other, throwing each other, dashing at enemies, igniting team mates' swords on fire, etc.

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I'd almost be willing to say

I'd almost be willing to say this would be cool just to have altered animations under certain conditions.

For example: Against a paralyzed opponent, a swordsman's attack power, instead of a standard slash/thrust, flourishes his blade and he turns his back to his opponent as he delivers the blow as a sort of bravado.

Just a very simple example, and I have no idea how hard it would be to code/animate something like that, but it would be entertaining.

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Somehow the combo field-

Somehow the combo field- mechanic from Guild Wars 2 comes to my mind.

But yes, I really like the idea of team- based attacks. Espeacially in long bossfights this will both fun and rewarding.

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LotRO has a sort of team

LotRO has a sort of team-combination system. When I've gotten it to work, the effects have been interesting, but most of the time, it's just a waste.

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It is an interesting concept,

It is an interesting concept, but it may have to wait until all the base power sets are balanced, and then seeing what can be added without over balancing the game.