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Door Entrances: Was a Black Interior too immersion breaking?

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Izzy
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Door Entrances: Was a Black Interior too immersion breaking?

....

ex:

TheMightyPaladin
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No

No

Redlynne
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Conditionally yes ...

Conditionally yes ... conditionally no. It depended on what was beyond the door.

Entering a place where the lights were off ... this is fine.
Entering an elevator or staircase ... no, this makes no sense.
Manhole cover, slid aside ... perfectly fine.
Entrance to a well lit cubicle farm in an office building ... certainly not.

My favorite goof ups of relying on "black behind the door" in City of Heroes were when the Devs forgot to put the black behind the door. So the door would slide open like normal, and there'd just be a WALL there ... that looked exactly like the rest of the walls everywhere else ... and your character would just run into the wall and disappear. That sort of thing always brought a chuckle of "guess QA never got around to this one!" and the sad sad realization that no matter how many times I'd report it as a /Bug it would just NEVER get fixed. EVER.

Personally, I feel that the better option is to continue the environment "beyond the door" so that you don't have to use the Black Wall Cheat like you're showing here. Best example of this kind of thing would be the Zone Tunnels in City of Heroes that connected different zones that had vehicles and pedestrians moving through them but which your characters could never "go into" because you'd automatically Zone instead.


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CrownArts
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Didn't bother me.

Didn't bother me.

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In City of Heroes they did

In City of Heroes they did not bother me much, so no, they had little to no effect on my feeling of immersion. In City of Titans, I am not sure. I expect the game to have greatly improved graphics and a higher level of detail. And in that case those black doorways could seem a little off.

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Forum: "The Devs Ask You"

Forum: "The Devs Ask You"
OP: Izzy
Inferred: Izzy is a dev!

...

Sorry, I had to. Actually on-topic, the black area behind mission doors doesn't bother me. It never crossed my mind before now, but even after giving it some thought, it still doesn't bother me.

Something practical to consider is that mission doors may have different environments/maps behind them. The motif and layout of entrance rooms will vary. It might not make sense to put a rendered room behind every door because the door might lead to something completely different. A simple black wall is a way to mask this ambiguity.

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Izzy is a Dev, is he?

Izzy is a Dev, is he?

^_^

I think if it would be reasonable for the PC to see what's beyond the door, it should display in the opening.

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I never even noticed before

I never even noticed before

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Never bothered me either. I

Never bothered me either. I'd put it on a really low-priority "nice to have" list.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I'm assuming the OP refers to

I'm assuming the OP refers to the entrance to an "Instanced Map", rather than an interior door inside a building. The Devs have already said they plan to have bulding interiors match exteriors as much as possible. So at least for interior doors this shouldn't be an issue, they just open on the next room and Bob's yer uncle.

So, with that assumption, I'd look for some kind of compromise where the environment continues past the door for a few feet then does a quick "fade to black". This could be a single cube positioned just past the door that matches the floor/walls of the room you're leaving. It wouldn't have to fade literally to black, it could be a bright glow or neutral mist, etc. depending on what it's opening onto. Heck, if we were actually running true to CoH, there are only a dozen or so interior styles and a custom cube could made for each one of those (kidding really, but maybe for launch this might be kinda true for a while) and the level designer just grabs the appropriate one for the interior they're using. And as Redlynne mentions, having appropriate "cubes" for different kinds of entrances (sewers/caves/office building/etc.) would be important.

For the record, and if we're doing a survey, the black void didn't bother me much *at the time*. Load screens and other game conventions are pretty much ingrained in our collective experience up to now. That's changing, of course.

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It didn't bother me at all.

It didn't bother me at all. Certainly not nearly as much as the random shuffle of radio missions where you'd enter an office door and end up in a cave or sewer.

The last programming I did was in BASIC back in the 80's so I don't have much of a clue about such things, but I wonder if, after accepting a mission or joining a team some elements of the active mission could be pre-loaded to minimize the load screens?

That's probably engine-level stuff that isn't optional and for all I know they already do that and what we complain about now IS the Speedy version :)

WarBird
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Rigel wrote:

Rigel wrote:
It didn't bother me at all. Certainly not nearly as much as the random shuffle of radio missions where you'd enter an office door and end up in a cave or sewer.
Quote:

Haha! Truth! I forgot all about that.

Redlynne
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With the City of Heroes game

With the City of Heroes game engine, and its capabilities (and limitations!) ... the Black Behind Door #2 thing was never all that big of a deal. Textures and polygon counts were relatively low (by "modern" standards of NOW) and so you could get away with some level of simplified "cheats" on the visuals without it being something particularly glaring.

That kind of "leeway" starts going down as the game's engine and graphics advance. What started out as a way to simplify and cut corners previously could potentially be viewed as being "lazy" or even "cheap" if done in a much more advanced and detailed game world.

In City of Heroes, it was a common joke that all of the characters didn't have Hands ... they had FLIPPERS instead ... because no one had individual fingers. That kind of shortcutting to reduce polygon counts was considered an acceptable compromise for that game engine. Try doing the exact same thing in City of Titans and you'd get a far different reaction ... especially if you've got fluttering fabrics and windblown hair animations like the Unreal Engine 4 is capable of producing.

In other words, just because City of Heroes could get away with the Black Wall Trick in a convincing/acceptable way does not ipso facto mean that City of Titans will necessarily be "excused" for doing the same thing. As I said, there will be times it is perfectly appropriate to do a Black Wall Behind Door (such as for manhole covers), but there will be other times when it won't be appropriate. Best idea is to plan accordingly.


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Never bothered me. On the

Never bothered me. On the contrary I think it mated well logically with the sense of NOT knowing what was behind the door.

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This does not bother me one

This does not bother me one bit. Its part of the suspension of disbelief allowed by the medium.

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The funny thing is - IIRC -

The funny thing is - IIRC - during development of CoH, the doors/entrances to certain buildings, like the stores and hospitals, did not have the "black teleport wall" but opened directly into the store space - as in the character would open the door and walk directly into the store. I'll see if I can find the video. Not sure why they changed it, but if they could make the game without the "black teleport wall" back then - there is no technical reason CoT couldn't do without them as well. THAT SAID - the CoH devs must have had a good reason to institute them, and therefore the CoT devs may find similar reason to do the same. We will have to see.

EDIT: here we go - the video I was talking about from 2002 E3 - go to around 4:45 to see what I mean;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72L0mSgzBOE&feature=player_detailpage#t=285

Jack's background commentary throughout the video also shows just how much things can change as a game evolves through development.

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

The funny thing is - IIRC - during development of CoH, the doors/entrances to certain buildings, like the stores and hospitals, did not have the "black teleport wall" but opened directly into the store space - as in the character would open the door and walk directly into the store. I'll see if I can find the video. Not sure why they changed it, but if they could make the game without the "black teleport wall" back then - there is no technical reason CoT couldn't do without them as well. THAT SAID - the CoH devs must have had a good reason to institute them, and therefore the CoT devs may find similar reason to do the same. We will have to see.
EDIT: here we go - the video I was talking about from 2002 E3 - go to around 4:45 to see what I mean;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72L0mSgzBOE&feature=player_detailpage#t=285
Jack's background commentary throughout the video also shows just how much things can change as a game evolves through development.

Thanks for the video link ;)

The 1st thing that comes to mind is that indoor missions maps had to grow larger and larger.. so much that an open world Building would have to span 3 large city blocks or more... which meant the buildings and the City-Scape would look a bit off.

This is another Immersion issue I was going to post about, but why waste a new thread. ;)
So, just to stay consistent, Black Portals were used everywhere, even if the hospital, certain stores, etc.. interior was scaled to fit the exterior.

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I'd say the 'Black Portals'

I'd say the 'Black Portals' arose from increasing use of Instancing. Otherwise, each of those interiors would have to be rendered as part of the Zone.

Be Well!
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Interdictor
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I'd say the 'Black Portals' arose from increasing use of Instancing. Otherwise, each of those interiors would have to be rendered as part of the Zone.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Technically - many were. Instanced missions were one thing, but the interiors of the stores and hospital, for instance, were in the Zone map - the rooms you walked into were just placed "below" the terrain. For instance if you had an ally targeted and they entered a store - they would "teleport" 20 or 30ft below the building. Like I said before, the CoH devs must have had a good reason to switch to using this for the enterable structures.

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Black interiors are nothing

Black interiors are nothing compared to loading screens.
In Dungeons & Dragons Online, clicking on a Dungeon entrance gives you a settings box where you pick your difficulty and a few other options. It also warns you (in red letters) if the mission can't be soloed. Then after you pick your settings and click enter you get the loading screen.

If I can sit through all that a black door is not going to mess with my head. As far as I'm concerned, immersion only begins after I'm in the mission, have summoned my hireling and turned on all my long term buffs.

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I assume they changed it so
Interdictor wrote:

Technically - many were. Instanced missions were one thing, but the interiors of the stores and hospital, for instance, were in the Zone map - the rooms you walked into were just placed "below" the terrain. For instance if you had an ally targeted and they entered a store - they would "teleport" 20 or 30ft below the building. Like I said before, the CoH devs must have had a good reason to switch to using this for the enterable structures.

I assume they changed it so that doors couldn't be blocked. Since they were already using instanced missions with shadowy doors, it's probably the least obtrusive way to make it hard to block a doorway. Making shop doors look and feel like mission doors already did required no new art or other graphic effects, very little in terms of new programming, and had hardly any effect on immersion.

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No, You would have to figure

No, You would have to figure what is in the missions first room to decide if it needs something other then black. Many popular mmo games are still in the black door stage.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk03drVkM2M

Interior Shader. Done and done.

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Izzy
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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk03drVkM2M
Interior Shader. Done and done.

Also, dont forget: http://youtu.be/ONIztGNEpYE :)

I think most of the time, you will mostly only see the Front of the building, and part of the time, front and one other side when on the corners. :)

Of course there are exceptions, like a Porta potty free standing structure. ;)
But I Don't Wana see in there! :(
;)

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Godling wrote:
Godling wrote:

No, You would have to figure what is in the missions first room to decide if it needs something other then black. Many popular mmo games are still in the black door stage.

It was more breaking when you entered a mission and you ended up in a cave system....

Which was a most interesting office door out there.

To be honest though, this is something where instances can have their own problem.

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Izzy
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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Godling wrote:
No, You would have to figure what is in the missions first room to decide if it needs something other then black. Many popular mmo games are still in the black door stage.

It was more breaking when you entered a mission and you ended up in a cave system....
Which was a most interesting office door out there.
To be honest though, this is something where instances can have their own problem.

Hehe.. you enter through a Cave Entrance and wind up in this Unreal Engine 4 Map!
http://youtu.be/KEZ69WWmh3A

;)

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

It was more breaking when you entered a mission and you ended up in a cave system....

Or entered an office building through a manhole cover :/

The black wall isn't something that bothers me, but the difference between settling for this, and seeing what's supposed to be on the other side is the difference between Ford and Ferrari. Of course that analogy can apply to production cost as well. There's a lot of shortcuts I'll settle for to revive the CoH experience in my life. This is one of them. Of course, like so many other things, I'd just ask the developers to remember the lessons of Power Customization, and try not to build anything that will be too difficult to replace or upgrade when it's reasonable to do so.

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Starhammer wrote:
Starhammer wrote:

... try not to build anything that will be too difficult to replace or upgrade when it's reasonable to do so.

+1.
That makes my ears Happy! ;D

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never bothered me. I suppose

never bothered me. I suppose this could be easily replaced though with some generic back drop, reflective of the place your entering. as other mentioned though, I would put this lil bit very low on the priority list of "things to do".

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Hehe.. you enter through a Cave Entrance and wind up in this Unreal Engine 4 Map!http://youtu.be/KEZ69WWmh3A
;)

I'm sorry but I didn't like the apartment.
It was too detailed.
This is a problem for several reasons:
I don't think the art style suits a superhero game.
When things look that detailed it raises the bar so that any little errors really stand out.
e.g. the mirrors were fogged up and the plants didn't have shadows.
I never would've noticed that if everything else hadn't been so detailed.
Is it interactive?
if I touch the curtains or the bed covers will they react like cloth?
Can I pick up the furniture and use it as weapons?
how does it look when I smash everything?
can the windows break?
can I tie someone up with a towel?
If I knock an opponent against the wall will he knock over the plant and make the picture fall?
Can I jump through that big window to escape from an attacker?

IF NOT, then making it look that realistic kind of sets me up to be disappointed.
How realistic will it look if the furniture is just a bunch of immovable obstacles?

Simpler art doesn't create the same expectations.
Also it animates better with less lag.
Finally Super sharp graphics require super fast computers and internet connections.
if you go in that direction, I might not be able to afford this game.

Izzy
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TheMightyPaladin wrote:
TheMightyPaladin wrote:

I'm sorry but I didn't like the apartment.
It was too detailed.
This is a problem for several reasons:
I don't think the art style suits a superhero game.
When things look that detailed it raises the bar so that any little errors really stand out.
e.g. the mirrors were fogged up and the plants didn't have shadows.
I never would've noticed that if everything else hadn't been so detailed.
Is it interactive?
if I touch the curtains or the bed covers will they react like cloth?
Can I pick up the furniture and use it as weapons?
how does it look when I smash everything?
can the windows break?
can I tie someone up with a towel?
If I knock an opponent against the wall will he knock over the plant and make the picture fall?
Can I jump through that big window to escape from an attacker?
IF NOT, then making it look that realistic kind of sets me up to be disappointed.
How realistic will it look if the furniture is just a bunch of immovable obstacles?
Simpler art doesn't create the same expectations.
Also it animates better with less lag.
Finally Super sharp graphics require super fast computers and internet connections.
if you go in that direction, I might not be able to afford this game.

When I look at a video like this, I dont jump to those conclusions. :{

All that comes to mind is, If its 10 years into the future and Occulus VR is the Norm,
and theres a younger generation of players that were 1st exposed to Comic characters from the Big Screen, not the Comics,
who will be disappointing by anything thats not Close to Real looking.

And if Unreal Engine can handle it now, were set for 10 years down the road. ;)

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:(

:(

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That video uses a separate

That video uses a separate tool set for designing. Great for scene rendering, interesting to possibly use in cgi animated shorts like a cut scene or short movie but not exactly something usuae for games. Famea have a wide range of requirements for the platforms that this wouldn't appropriately scale with. One day, who knows where gaming may go. With engines becoming more capable, vr seemingly on the rise, and heck human thought to machine interface a few genrrations feom now may be playing in a matrix-like environemnt (rather like Sword Art Online depicts).


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Here's an easy dividing line

Here's an easy dividing line for you on the question of whether a Black Wall Behind Door/Portal is acceptable or not.

Will getting to the other side of that Black Wall require a loading screen?
If Yes ... then Black Wall is quite acceptable.
If No ... then there shouldn't be a Black Wall there.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Here's an easy dividing line for you on the question of whether a Black Wall Behind Door/Portal is acceptable or not.
Will getting to the other side of that Black Wall require a loading screen?
If Yes ... then Black Wall is quite acceptable.
If No ... then there shouldn't be a Black Wall there.

Sounds good to me!

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Here's an easy dividing line for you on the question of whether a Black Wall Behind Door/Portal is acceptable or not.
Will getting to the other side of that Black Wall require a loading screen?
If Yes ... then Black Wall is quite acceptable.
If No ... then there shouldn't be a Black Wall there.

I think the loading screen was precisely why the black never bothered me.

I think it would be more immersion-breaking to see a room and, as I walk across the threshold, get a loading screen for no apparent reason.

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Never bugged me at all.

Never bugged me at all.

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Some player bodies acted as 1

Some player bodies acted as 1 way doors because of collision effects in COX. Inside a building there was a single door you had to go through to get to the other part of the map. Bad guys also could only go through this door. What we would do is have the Tank round up the mobs on the other side, then stand in the doorway. We could hit the mobs with range and AOE attacks, but not players nor the mob could walk through the player in the door way.

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I didn't really care.

I didn't really care.

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Darkness creates suspense,

Darkness creates suspense, imo.

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Never bothered me. But now

Never bothered me. But now that you mention it might start bothering me! Okay, likely not.

Just like in TOR, a force field to keep you out of an instanced area :p Just part of what you go through in a MMO I figure.