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Somehow, I don't see this getting a great deal of support.
I don't see any reason to limit people's speed from the beginning of the game; the only thing you seem to be saying is "Well, if no one else artificially shows down leveling, is it bad if we do?"
Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
COT: Mission tips writer, studying Cinema 4D animation program
Something to keep in mind is that by the time CoH was 8.5 years old there were a huge number of ways for a new character to gain levels very quickly. At the beginning of CoH back in 2004 it was actually relatively hard to level up because there were simply not that many options for gaining XP. That's what the situation's going to be like at the beginning of CoT as well so I'm actually not too worried about leveling "too quickly" in general.
Regardless I don't really have much problem with characters gaining several quick levels within an hour or so as long as the rest of the level progression is geared so that it would take a reasonable amount of serious effort to hit the level cap. Of course the definition of "reasonable" varies depending on who you talk to, but I have faith the folks at MWM won't make things either too hard or too easy for most people.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
This is not a good idea. The reason that the first 5 levels went quickly is that by design, you want to quickly give your audience the foundational toolkit relatively early. In shooters and the like, this is a negligible issue because just the range of tools expands, not necessarily power, so dumping the necessary tools on them almost arbitrarily is fine. However, in a level based game like CoX, and we presume CoT, you also want to establish a clearly understood pattern of progression so that the player knows what to expect in later progression.
This means that the tools need to be given rapidly without appearing arbitrary. Making the lvl 1-2 progress longer, but allowing 3 power pics and 10 slots would be missleading to players, leaving them disappointed (a very bad feeling while playing a game) when they got to level 3, and only had 1 power or 2 slots to distribute. The more appealing strategy is to instead keep the progression per-level similar throughout the levels, but tweaking the experience needed to allow very rapid progression early on in order to give the player the needed tools without confusing them about how leveling works in the game.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
While I would not want to say "don't allow us to reach level 5 in an hour" because that would not appeal to the folks who don't like the lower levels, I would instead say, "don't [i]force[/i] us to reach level 5 in an hour." I always thought the lower levels went by too quickly in CoX, while the 30s seemed to drag sometimes.
I'd like to be able to take my time getting to know a new character while still fighting enemies (i.e. not just crafting, for example). But I don't mind if there's a fast track for others to use.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Powerleveling is still one of the most sought-after activities of hardcore gamers. CoX appealed to them roughly as well as the casual gamers, so obviously we should have the option of powerleveling. If you like the lower levels, then just poke around all day. If you like the higher levels, then just plow through everything indiscriminately. [i]You[/i] set the pace. I was always trying new powerset combos, so I had to adopt a strategy to grind toons so I could see what different powersets are like at their full potential. Hell, I could get MY toons up to level 5 in 30 minutes or less!
Because Dominoes.
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[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/toon-profiles-nnekonnin-llabanttselel-aalbusuumbra-aagimundr-sstaalsol-and-doctor]My original character profiles![/url]
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/26.jpg[/img]
One late feature of CoH was the ability to turn off XP gain. I want that feature in Titan City as well. Same reason for those who want to slow boat can, those who want to stop at a level and just hang, aid, or explore a said level could.
So if you want to go it slow you can turn off your XP gain and take your time in the lower levels building up Credit reserves.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
Yeah having an XP on/off switch might be the easiest "solution" to this issue.
We all know that no matter how fast or slow the Devs make it to gain levels there'll be people out there who'll think the default rate is either too fast or too slow regardless. With a manual switch for XP gain you can choose to level up at whatever speed you want.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
i dont know. the first few levels felt like false power. like it was too easy. like i didn't earn it.
so many places and contacts whiz by, and.... i leave them in the dust.
i am not a alt person. i am a powergamer. i was one of maybe 12 (game-wide) that was able to break the coh game, without breaking the rules. (i made myself a proper bit of fun, as people would flood recluse's victory to beat me as if i were a monster. people that were noobs would ask if they got a badge for killing me. i could take 16 people on for a few minutes, and kill 1-2 of them...) that said, i read the content. am i odd this way?
and...should there be content that needs information from the text to make the level easier/more profitable?
What a man thinks of himself, that is what determines, or rather indicates, his fate. - Henry David Thoreau
People also asked for options such as say, the ability to toggle XP to half XP, instead of turning it on or off.
Maybe we should ask for options such as that here as well.
Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
COT: Mission tips writer, studying Cinema 4D animation program
Thanks, Ambi -- that would be a better solution for me than turning off XP altogether. I don't want my only option at lower levels to be "too fast" or "no progress at all." Having said that, if lower level progress speed is similar to that of CoX, I can live with it; as long as it isn't faster.
Spurn all ye kindle.
and maybe that unsed half xp could still turn into extra ingame currency?
atlas park was so well thought out, and people really ever only saw the atlas statue and the park around it.
What a man thinks of himself, that is what determines, or rather indicates, his fate. - Henry David Thoreau
Not entirely true. I may have only joined the game just before Mission Architect launched, but I was quite familiar with Atlas Park both old and new before the revamp and prior to shutdown. New Atlas mainly due to beta testing the crap out of that issue.
Speaking of which...WE DO NOT NEED OR WANT GIANT FLOATING COINS OVER OUR CONTACTS!
If we MUST have something like that, make it toggle on and off in an option or even be customizable to something very unobtrusive. I hated those things, but the devs were against changing them to something less extravagant.
I LOVED the old way with no big floating...thing over a contact. Keep such things as subtle as possible while maintaining consistency, PLEASE!
The original Lady of Ysgard. -Virtue
[img]http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/203/c/5/Updated_Homage_by_Voldine.jpg[/img]
Choosing to earn XP more slowly - essentially opting to play the game one way rather than another way - should not provide any additional advantages. That starts to move the whole scenario into "you're doing it wrong" territory.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
sorry fez.
the investor with a illustrator backround, abusing his power of creative thinking for evil, got ahead of me.
i am a greedy powergamer, who likes to smell the flowers. i want it all.
.... but when i find a way to play pvp endgame, people will still be forced to ask THEMSELVES what are they doing wrong.....
What a man thinks of himself, that is what determines, or rather indicates, his fate. - Henry David Thoreau
Not to mention CoH had the Shut off XP for Currency. So I don't see a problem with reduced XP for slightly more currency. The issue would be the numbers more then the functionality.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
But then if you're saying you get half EXP and *no additional benefit of any kind,* you've moved that option much more firmly into "you're doing it wrong" territory.
Honestly, you move it into "you're doing it wrong" territory when you provide more than one option while still allowing other people to have opinions, to some degree anyway.
J
Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
COT: Mission tips writer, studying Cinema 4D animation program
I love the early levels because of the speed. I love the idea of gaining new powers to play with. However I DO want to use the new powers through a mission or two before getting ANOTHER one. My issue...not the game's.
One important factor for me though (as an unrepentant altaholic) is variety. I know nobody wants to make a bunch of low-level content because people race past it. But if the stories were GOOD people might actually play it for the story. I also wouldn't mind a minor achievement somewhere in each early scenario to encourage players to see it at least once.
One problem is that everyone differs on what makes a good story...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
You could also make it so that you cannot "out level" a contact...
Considering all the options that are happening out there, I can see missions being so that mobs are effectively running all of their own "GM code" where the damage scales accordingly (ie so a level 10 getting hit by an attack, and a level 50 running the same mission getting hit by an attack.. the damage is equivalent to both. Some of the challenges and most of the World bosses in Wildstar do this) so that you don't actually have to worry about "missing content"... the only content you would miss out would be the stuff that you have yet to find...
And not just because you are too high level to even talk to the person.
I'd prefer if the mission auto Exemp's you (a lvl 50) down to the Mission (level 10)...
...so its kinda like Ouro for missions (for contacts you already acquired, but never got the chance to complete).
Either Auto Exemp, or Zone Event code.
I think Auto Exemp is the better choice. Then let the difficulty sliders raise/lower the upper-bound. So, if I'm clearing my backlog of cases, I can set a mission to max and use most of my powers at full. If I'm near or at the maximum level for the mission, 'arresting' one more minion won't turn the whole thing grey, when I ding-over.
I remember doing one such backlog mission in CoH, I had to beat a warehouse full of Warriors on my Willpower/Dual Blades Tanker. So I cranked it up to +4x8 and went to town... I was wading through a River of grey goons and it was Glorious! Only the EBs popped up green. Each one of them was worth only a tiny drop of Exp, but I dinged on the mission-complete.
This makes me think that it would be good to have Auto-Exemp on a slider/toggle, too. Controlling how low the Auto-Exemp ceiling is. Do you want it to cap you at mission-level, so that the mission seems 'normal' to you, or do you want to be at mission +2 and allow everything to go green on you?
Be Well!
Fireheart
I'm just assuming here, that the missions designed for lower levels (10 in this case) have easier enemies with certain powers of their own at level 10. To balance things, its only fair that the players also are limited to level 10 powers, otherwise the Devs would have to somehow Dynamically change each of the Enemy Groups powers to compensate. That seems like too much work for me if i was a dev. :P
I'm lazy. ;D
Perhaps I should say, 'use More of my powers'. Remember, in CoH, when Exemped, you got +5 levels worth of powers - if you had them. http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Exemplar#Exemplar.2FMalefactor
Be Well!
Fireheart
The +5 seemed like it was mostly aimed at TF's you had to Exem'ed down for, and I liked it.
But... i wasnt a fan of the +5 for very low level, on very Easy Difficulty setting.. for generic missions.
If the +5 scaled to match the Difficulty setting (from +0 powers at -2 Diff.. to +5 powers if +2 Diff), my conscience would feel better. ;)
Don't forget that you also had the full effect of the enhancements as well in them as well, even if you only put those slots in at level 49 and you exemped down to level 10 when you had the power...
(IO's were a messy exception which I never really understood for that effect.... was it the set bonus that didn't carry over if you exemped down too far, or did they shut off completely?)
The idea of not outlevelling contacts has been discussed elsewhere and is related but tangential to this subject. Masterghostartist and I aren't concerned about going through content too quickly; we're concerned with actual character progression (i.e. new powers) happening too quickly for our liking.
I don't mind if there's an option to be able to play under-level content, but as I've mentioned elsewhere I would hate it if the game [i]always[/i] autoexemped me. That takes away the option to level up and come back to try a really difficult mission, maybe an EB. Difficulty slider helps here only if one is not already on the standard setting, and doesn't cover the possibility of getting a new power to help.
Spurn all ye kindle.
What do you suggest then?
Also, just keep in mind that one aspect of CoH was that once your tank is able to take a certain Defensive power, Foes reach their Offensive powers also to COUNTER. Maybe foes even get Defensive powers to counter certain tiers of powers that have perhaps an AoE (or other) component.
Enemy groups at those power tiers have to be on an EVEN playing field to make it challenging, as well as fun.
Kinda like this:
[img]http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/187956623.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=B53F616F4B95E55352491EB2B6888843BD73F451D7099A77D0147359126385EC[/img]
And would try and "Slowly" (key term) shift the Dominance away from the Enemy to the Player as you progress.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/bT6uo83.png[/img]
in CoH the Transfer of Dominance was about the same time you got SO's.. which is close to the graph above. :)
cute chart izzo-man. however.....
Once upon a time (that's right, imma going there....),
coh was in it's first 6 months. the game had yet to get any serious updates (unless you count capes). according to the strategy guide, the player is strong and facing more or less, unpowered, or low powered enemies. up to about level 20. by level 30 the character should have trouble. by level 35 the character will need to team up. after a time, people built up knowledge of the game making them inherently powerful.they also inherited extra powers via loyal subbing time, and access to currency for any future new alts. with fewer new players, and just about only legacy players about, the old game was forgotten.
but you do remember that first time in the scary city. being happy to beat up 3 punks like spiderman. not taking on gods like superman. and being happy to have done so.
and you never got that again.
it just seems like an entire game does not need to skip the beginning as fast as possible. perhaps needing a solid 8 hours for the average player to hit lvl 5? would that be terrible? going up a level in the forties range takes forever. in most games. but those early levels and even places, are just..... wasted. sure, there might be a meeting point for grouping in there. or a holiday event takes place were even a level one can get too.
this will probably be the most inventive and creative game, since dungeons and dragons. with everquest stuck in advanced voxel hell, and other publishers only wanting to do copycat games, or sequels, i do not think anyone will want to breeze through.
What a man thinks of himself, that is what determines, or rather indicates, his fate. - Henry David Thoreau
Throw me in the -1 column for this thread. I think CoH had it balanced just right towards the end of its days. Like some have mentioned before, you'll always have people that are unhappy about how "fast" or "slow" leveling is in a game. Some people are in it for the content, some are in it for the socialization, some are in it for the min/maxxing, etc. Like the famous quote says, "You can please all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time." I for one, do not like slow leveling games. If the pace isn't constant enough for me, I lose interest in the game and get bored of the slog between levels. For casual game players that don't get to spend but maybe 30 minutes to an hour a day playing, you are seriously hampering their experience by slowing down the xp gain to a snails crawl. Not everybody gets the luxury of spending 8 hours a day to play a game so they can level to level 5 in one day. We want to make sure that the game is balanced for as many people as we can, so hopefully they'll be shooting for the "Some of the people all of the time" portion of the quote with the some part being the majority of the players.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I understand and agree with the op's point, This thread is an example of what happens when a forum contributing audience (which is overwhelmingly long time, experienced ex-CoH players) is assumed to be the "we the people" player base. Over time, CoH essentially gave up on matching content with leveling pace. They created things like the sewers to cater to people who had dozens of alts who have done the chore of beginning at square one many times over and did not need or want to do anything but blitz through the lower levels as quickly as possible. CoT is an entirely different animal. Their opening argument for content versus level pace should NOT be the same as CoH. This is entirely new world with entirely new things to see and do. Careful thought should be given in terms of both development and play to do just that. After a game matures I'm sure all the "shortcuts" to fly though lower levels will be discovered and implemented anyway.
hah..
haha..
Hahaha..
AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Sorry. No. There is no way to be even close to DnD. There's not. When you create an entire GENRE and build upon it with each new edition causing successors to adapt your changes, you are the king. Everquest was an MMO attempt at a DnDesque game right down to the GMs of old creating new locations and spawning powerful foes to defeat there. Ultima was based on DnD adventures that Lord British had run and the magic system was very similar to DnD's, not to mention almost every other mechanic was an adapted version of DnD's. Final Fantasy was originally ENTIRELY based on DnD, spell charges and all (and had many bugs not existed, abilities too).
Call me an elitist, but it's true.
Going to your original request, let me tell you a story about a game called World of Warcraft. A long time ago, it took at the least about 3 months (about 14-20 in game days) to cap at 60. And that's if you did nothing but quest and grind mobs. When BC was introduced, most people who'd already capped only took about a month to cap again, and the same went with Lich King. If you started a new character in LK? Well.. grats bud. You had a hell of a grind to go through. NOW going through what you've said in the last post, you want about 8 hours for 5 levels. Assuming this game is of course non linear in XP needed to level up, that creates this.
Start Level 1
Avg Time to Level 2: 30 Minutes (Total: 30 minutes)
Avg Time to Level 3: 1 hour (Total: 1:30)
Avg Time to Level 4: 2 hours (Total: 3:30)
Avg Time to Level 5: 4 hours (Total: 7: 30)
Continuing this trend would cause level 15, HALF the cap at launch, to be attained at an average of 16351 hours and 30 minutes. 681 days 19 hours and 30 minutes.
You starting to see the insanity?
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Im sure the devs will work out the ideal levelling speed based on normal content.
The missions will run from a-b-c-.... at first then at some point will possibly open up to multiple contacts.
By running through this content on +0/x1 (assuming this type of difficulty slider is available) the devs will know how much XP and how much XP/hr is typical.
Personally I would expect to hit level 2 within 30 mins of gaming. You want that next level, you want to power up. You don't want to have to slog to get to level 2 or 3.
Now if I want to I can up the Diff to +1 or x2 or whatever and if I can survive get more XP, therefore levelling faster. Or lower it to -1 and take longer as I get less XP per Kill (also I cant remember but did altering the Difficulty Slider in CoH grant different Mission Completion XP?).
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
After reading lord nightmares hour calculation I guess I won't be sleeping and drinking tons of coffee and red bull
i prefer "prolab caffine pills". for when someone, on this mudball we call home, needs a month's work done in 3 days flat..... and i say yes.
anyway, im sure the devs will get it right.
not like south korea, which seems to love, as a playerbase, massive grinds. please don't require a effective eternity to go from level 49 to level 50.
What a man thinks of himself, that is what determines, or rather indicates, his fate. - Henry David Thoreau
what if tests were included after a certain amount of xp gained and leveled you have to do a test using different methods to complete the tests
for hero a test of courage say going into a burning building and saving a certain amount of people in a time span and your reward unlocks costume parts or a temp power of some sort like a jet pack of some travel power you can use.
this test idea came from warframe for me every time i gained enough xp for a mastery rank i'd have to complete certain tasks on the test one of the rewards to this is unlocking xp locked weapons or other items another thing was having X amount of trades per day. but this is all just an idea of expanding on the leveling/
This is why we need to make the increase of xp to the next level increase on a square-root basis, not a multiplicative basis.
LOL screw that! Just make some espresso, run it through the coffee maker a few times, and eat pure caffeinated Jell-O! It's the most heavenly thing you will ever eat, second only to chim.
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[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/toon-profiles-nnekonnin-llabanttselel-aalbusuumbra-aagimundr-sstaalsol-and-doctor]My original character profiles![/url]
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/26.jpg[/img]
I remember how long it took me to get my first 50 in CoX.... 732 hours. And I am fairly sure that I spent quite a bit of time on the low levels on that character as well....And even back then, there were people who were able to get to cap in 120 hours(ish), back in 2005. But over time, it was made faster/easier to level up, as peoples expectations/experience changed.
The first few levels should be fairly easy/fast to get through in my mind, but that doesn't mean that the whole game should be set up that way.
I suspect Leveling might follow this sort of tween (very close to it):
[url=http://easings.net/][img]http://i.imgur.com/Nr1hgwH.png[/img][/url]
Shoots up at start.. and is weened off as you progress to the Higher levels. ;)
I am not saying you are necessarily wrong. And I'm not saying this isn't the embedded "standard" for MMO leveling. But I will say this is why in new games (where more levels are TBD) vet players complain "is that all there is?" and in mature games people say "I tried that but after awhile I found that to be too much of a grind".
But I doubt anyone has the courage to do much of anything different.
ah. the xp grab. a tale as old as a middle aged man. here is where that path leads: http://youtu.be/5KqjOGdOMtA
What a man thinks of himself, that is what determines, or rather indicates, his fate. - Henry David Thoreau
Guild Wars 2 levelling speed was about the same no matter the level you were at, but I guess that this is because of the auto zone exemping, and mobs gave you "level appropriate" XP when you exemped down...
So this meant that I could run events in the low levels and still get my Karma points when at cap at *about* the same speed as if I was in high level zones.
Hell, I hit level cap with several zones still left to complete ahead of me....
I for one found this (curve shoots up at start) to be a good thing, since I liked to have a fighting chance with at least 8 powers under my belt right away.
Since we cant start off with at least 8 powers from the beginning, this is the Next Best Thing (i think). ;)
I admit Izzy, you make a good point about the multiple powers early thing. One I had not fully considered. I always thought the curve you suggest was more to "hook" people early. There is a whole science behind addictive behavior and leveling. Still what you prefer benefits more game vets than say a noob who hasn't figured out two powers and now has eight.
I also didn't know about Guild Wars 2. Interesting, wonder if that stops at max level people from exploring new zones.
Good discussion.
The shape of the curve isn't *quite* right, but that's the general gist. This [i]might[/i] be closer.
Enjoy.
Know thy users, for they are not you.
"Preliminary optimization is the root of all evil." -Knuth
[color=#FF0000]Coding Lead[/color]
a.k.a. Mr Sigma, Mr. Stochastic, Balancing Act, The Oncoming Storm
Nope, because in Guild Wars 2, you can still get XP when you kill mobs, stuff for completing zone maps (all events/hearts/skill points/vistas/way points. There is also the story arc as well, which takes you through the later zones as well.
And on top of that, every time you "level" when you are at level cap, you get Karma Points, which are an additional currency to buy rare crafting materials... so there is a reason to keep on exploring.
Oh, and a title for exploring 100% of all the zones (even the PvP ones)