Discuss: You're not super... till you put on The Cape

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warcabbit
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Discuss: You're not super... till you put on The Cape

What could this be about?

http://www.thecaperadio.com/
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/1693868
(Do talk about the skins you see, from 0 to 4 - and yes, there are two different identical pairs. )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK4s9esn-7s

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Foradain
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Something for everyone!

Something for everyone!

(Literally, Comedy Tonight, from A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum as I hit the play button) ^_^

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Sweet!

Sweet!

I love the movement in general, both of the cape/cloth and the figure. I can't wait to see what it looks like when the obvious problems - clipping and the excessive movement of the material - have been resolved.

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Having watched the video, I

Having watched the video, I think the main problem with the cape and hair is that they're TOO flexible. They're TOO "lightweight" as materials. Every little move sends them into wild spasms of motion. The capes especially just come across as being ridiculously lightweight material, rather than something that weighs a few pounds when folded up. The hair ... just looked goofy. At first, I thought you had an extra "head cape" going on. The hair just has no "resistance" to maintain any kind of shape, and there's no "dampening" to it to make sure that whatever shape it's supposed to have it will continue to have. For the capes, you might want to do something akin to giving them a "weighted border/hemline" that allows them to flap and flutter in a way that offers more "resistance" to air pressure and motion, so as to "hang" better from the shoulders (or wherever).

So the physics is working beautifully, but now it's a question of dialing in the tuning, just like you'd said.

Other than that, fabulous preview! Agreed that the clipping issues will get resolved in due course.

As for the skins ... it was kind of hard to see on itty bitty little tiny patches of picture surrounded by oceans of white space on the screen. If you want us to render judgement on detail, you're going to have to give us bigger pictures to work with.


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I couldn't help but let loose

I couldn't help but let loose a sensible chuckle over the head-capes. Thats 4 different capes on the head I'm seeing? Now I'm thinking of what sort of Living Tribunal tribute character I could work up...

Happy to see some of these demo videos running at a framerate that looks like it wasn't recorded off of someone's old Commodore-64. Presentation matters, I know CoT is going to rock but we gotta sell it to some fence-sitters!

So very happy to see some skin texturing finally, the plastic doll look was getting a little concerning. I guess the texture of Pic 4 looks the best but that one pic is a little grainy. El Santo in Pic 3 and the original pic still looks a bit Barbie-esque to me.

I first read that as "we have successfully put 101 capes on a single *wearer*" which earned another chuckle!

Very impressive update, love it!

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Looking good. It will be nice

Looking good. It will be nice to once again be able to overcome obstacles greater than knee high. As far as Capes go, I'm a proponent of the incredible adage that one should not wear a cape.

I loved the video of Capeman being blinded by the cape.

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That video was amazing. I

That video was amazing. I see now why Mr. Incredible doesn't use a cape, because your model choked himself with his. But this is a characteristic of a good simulation. So after seeing this, a user in the real world would probably insert some sort of stiffener into the first 6 to 12 inches of a cape to keep it from wrapping around its wearer's own neck. Like a collar stay, we would call these stiffeners cape stays. Edit: I can see an ad in Titan City now. A billboard with a cape wrapped around someone's neck and face, advertising cape stays!

I think the last skin looked the best. It was blotchier (is that a word? more blotchy?) and looked as if it had depth to it. But it was also shiny and I bet that shiny surface can give it a plastic look in different lighting. I'd like to think that if our heroes are shiny, it is because they are sweating, and if they are sweating, they are probably covered in grit, grime and blood, so any shiny characteristics to skin should be accompanied with grime so it doesn't look like the skin is shiny new plastic. (unless we want our character to be manikins or synths, which is a distinct possibility for one I am thinking of making)


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This video would give Edma

This video would give Edma Mode a heart attack. I didn't even know face capes were a thing

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Foradain
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And now that we actually have

And now that we actually have the update to look at... ^_^

I like the Due Diligence you're doing for our capes and other flutterables. Remember: The more cape you have in your face in prototyping, the less you choke on it in combat.

Of the skins, I liked #4 best, followed by the left face of #2. (this really needed to wait until I got home to a real screen to see them on)

And Edna can take her opinions elsewhere; properly designed cape attachment points render most of her arguments moot.

Something aesthetic, Something frenetic, Something for everyone...

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Red, that was, indeed, head

Red, that was, indeed, head-capes. It will eventually become hair, but they were headcapes.

And yes, it's too thin and rubbery - but those are settings we can tweak. And, well, have since we made the video Monday. Which created _new_ glitches...
You know how things go. We decided this version was funniest and most fun - the more recent stuff only shows one cape.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

Of the skins, I liked #4 best, followed by the left face of #2. (this really needed to wait until I got home to a real screen to see them on)

I concur. I like that combo best.

Great job guys, and thank you for reminding me how utterly stupid Grifter's mask was in Wild C.A.T.S. lol

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Nice update, and I'm happy to

Nice update, and I'm happy to see capes in action, even if they need some tweaking. I was perversely proud of managing to get three capes (after a fashion) into one costume in CoH; now I see I'll have to up my game.

Nyktos wrote:

This video would give Edma Mode a heart attack. I didn't even know face capes were a thing

I said no capes. That's nine capes. Can't you count?
:)

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Pretty frickin' awesome. I

Pretty frickin' awesome. I can see you still have tweaking to do. It would get pretty irritating to have to unwind your cape after every fight. Although the potential for comedy is pretty tempting.

I liked #2 and #4 skin the best. Either one looked fine to me.

Huckleberry wrote:

That video was amazing. I see now why Mr. Incredible doesn't use a cape, because your model choked himself with his. But this is a characteristic of a good simulation. So after seeing this, a user in the real world would probably insert some sort of stiffener into the first 6 to 12 inches of a cape to keep it from wrapping around its wearer's own neck. Like a collar stay, we would call these stiffeners cape stays. Edit: I can see an ad in Titan City now. A billboard with a cape wrapped around someone's neck and face, advertising cape stays!

ha ha...nice.

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Definitely going to need an

Definitely going to need an /adjust-cape emote or movement, for when your cape has gotten wrapped around your head three times.

Be Well!
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looking awesome, but i can't

looking awesome, but i can't belive there isn't more talk about the tassels. We can make our Wild est cowboys...now all we need is physics spinning gears/spurs

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Fav skin: #2 left.

Fav skin: #2 left.

And will cape weights we customizable. Maybe a wispy overly lightweight cape makes sense for a ghost, but for more of a cloak, a much heavier cape would be nice.

Also, will --within reason(ish) -- capes be placable anywhere? To make a veil, e.g.?

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Believe it or else, Star Trek

Believe it or else, Star Trek Online is WAY worse about this sort of thing. My Romulan captain wears the 23rd century Romulan costume and when she runs, the long scarf that hangs behind her crawls up her back and then flips over her shoulder to POINT FORWARDS at chin level and stretches out horizontally in front of whatever direction she's running. It is just about the dumbest costume glitch I have ever seen. The second dumbest thing is that the scarf will clip through her butt when she's just standing in her idle animation too, in a hideously obvious way, because her posture keeps her shoulders angled forwards when idling. It's just one of those "QA? We doan need no steenkin' QA!" facts about Cryptic's relentlessly slipshod code management that makes me look at what MWM is doing and thinking that the pros are amateurs.


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it's not really Cryptic you

it's not really Cryptic you have to plam its ATARI who are the inital company (STO has been bought out a few time but core gameplay is core gameplay) to put things in perspective they had a pre order bonus of the TOS uniform which for female characters consited of a blouse and skirt with a visible seal instead of a single tunic...oh and it was the standard uniform with a plunging neckline instead of the actual captain's tunic.

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I definitely like #2's left

I definitely like #2's left face, though I feel it's a bit a bit blue in skintone (but that's most likely to be lighting issues).

Overall, with some tweaking to how incredibly elastic capes are at the moment, we should see some really cool stuff after a while. I'm not going to ever use a cape - never seem to make characters that can pull them off - but this bodes EXTREMELY well for things like robes, clothing, loose shirts, hair, and similar things. The robes in particular is something important to me; there wasn't any real robes back in CoH, and that's a travesty, for something so iconic.

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More outstanding work, folks!

More outstanding work, folks! Great to see everything coming along. Ahhh, capes. Agreed with everyone else that it wouldn't feel all that heroic to have your cape wrap around your head during combat (just look at some of Thor's outtakes online), so I'm glad you're looking into that.

I also agree with others that it's a bit hard to compare the face styles given the presentation, but if I had to choose I'd go with no. 2. The one on the left looks particularly realistic to me. Not sure if it's slightly too realistic for the game without seeing it combined with a full costume and background, though. Context will mean a lot.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I like how the cape gets

Will we be getting what I call Hip-capes? A cloth on the front and a cloth on the back of the pelvis, but not real wide; about the middle of the thigh, side-to-side. Different lengths would be nice, too, ranging from high thigh to ankle length. Heck, let them drag on the ground.

I like how the cape gets wrapped around the neck like a scarf: Can we get extra long capes so that we can do this as non-costume designer effect? The running animation looks much better, too. Now if you could just get Andy to a massage therapist to relieve some tension and relax his shoulders a little; can you get rid of the perma-shrug?

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O. M. S.!

O. M. S.!

Oh my science! It's almost too real.

Fireheart wrote:

Definitely going to need an /adjust-cape emote or movement, for when your cape has gotten wrapped around your head three times.
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Fireheart

This was my second thought. To add to it, it might be nice if a standing short jump was configured to automatically "adjust" such capes and related accessories.

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+1 to the following:

+1 to the following:

1) Great job y'all!

2) Face #2 Left

3) Desviper's customized cape weighting suggestion--within manageable parameters. THAT would be freaking genius!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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if we count create multiple

if we could create multiple attachment points for capes, it'd be good. If that was a thing, people could custom-design things like tabards, veils, scarves, and more things that don't occur to me off the top of my head. Attaching a cape to your your shoulders at the top and at your waist for the second set of connectors would allow for some interesting stylistic choices.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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Not faces, not faces guys,

Not faces, not faces guys, SKIN TEXTURES, that's what we want evaluated lol.

And yeah, by the time we've finished fine tuning, they should not wrap around your neck, or any of those other bad things. It's good practice for ensuring our skirts don't conspire to scuttle our T rating I guess.

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Well, I at least was talking

Well, I at least was talking about the skin texture I like best >.>

My vote goes to #2-left either way.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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With all the capes attached

With all the capes attached to that character I was surprised to see there were no Butt-capes.

I agree with the devs there's still plenty of tuning to do on the physics there. It seemed as though the cape was woven out of rubber bands. It was just a little too responsive. I would have liked to see how it reacted to not only movement but power effects. All in good time I'm sure.

On the skin notes. I'm going to buck the trend and say #2 right. I know #2 left looks more realistic, but I think that may not be the best choice. To me the game style has been a bit more action figure and a little less realistic. I think the action figure style is more appropriate. I'd like to see more color and fantastic-ness than reality in the game world. And I think in 5 and 10 years it will still look stylized rather than dated.

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Another stellar update.

Another stellar update. Finally we are beginning to see the game gel into a real tangible product.

I love the capes update with physics and collision! Further I noted that when the running bot jumped on the standing bot...he did NOT pass though! He landed on an arm. Collision may make for amazing fights!

Clothing, cape and hair physics...I am really pumped. Thanks guys!

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Oh I should clarify I liked

Oh I should clarify I liked #2 "left" in addition to #4. I don't know if that's because there appeared to be more facial details over the same skin or not.

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Picture one skin is good. Too

Picture one skin is good. Too much realism is not something I want in this genre.

But Like Redlynn said, the pictures are too small and all have different angles and lighting to make a proper evaluation.

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Fantastic update! The cloth

Fantastic update! The cloth and hair movements are gonna be awesome when tweaked!

I, too, like the skin on #2 left and #4 is my second choice.

I am also loving the jump animation. It actually looks like the legs are propelling him up and forward. The last time I looked at Valiance, the jump looked more like an invisible hand was grabbing a toon around the middle and lifting him up.

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Great update.

Great update.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Not faces, not faces guys, SKIN TEXTURES, that's what we want evaluated lol.

Ah, this was lack of specificity on my part rather than misunderstanding.

So, to clarify, the SKIN TEXTURE of face #2 left.

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Oops, my bad also. Skin, not

Oops, my bad also. Skin, not face!

Well in that case I find it even more difficult to distinguish between skins given these examples. 1-3 look pretty much the same to me, with only alterations in tone or lighting. I can say I'm not fond of 4; it looks like he's got some sort of rash -- at least in that picture.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Not faces, not faces guys, SKIN TEXTURES, that's what we want evaluated lol.

I'm not sure if the examples provided of the skin textures are sufficient to provide any real evaluation. The different angles, costumes, lighting, backgrounds make a comparison difficult. I'd think you'd want to use the exact same layout except the skin texture for comparison purposes, give us a single pose and switch between, say, 4 different texture options, let us comment on that.

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Baalumbral wrote:
Baalumbral wrote:

Shadow Elusive wrote:
Not faces, not faces guys, SKIN TEXTURES, that's what we want evaluated lol.
I'm not sure if the examples provided of the skin textures are sufficient to provide any real evaluation. The different angles, costumes, lighting, backgrounds make a comparison difficult. I'd think you'd want to use the exact same layout except the skin texture for comparison purposes, give us a single pose and switch between, say, 4 different texture options, let us comment on that.

I concur with this statement, the pictures definitely don't allow for a great comparison. But as it stands I like the face and skin texture of #2 left.

Otherwise, great update, love the capes and I hope to one day make Edna Mode real upset with capes all over me (Hopefully there won't be to many planes flying around :D On that note, I am so looking forward to The Incredibles 2!!!!!)

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I like the way that the capes

I like the way that the capes move, a lot of people doesn't take in account of simulation of wind blowing in the game ( you know when your character is standing still and the wind slightly blows your hair and cape ).

I love the way everything is coming along in the making of this game, but what stands out the most for me is the way the animation moves when the character jumps. The arms seems restricted and the body has a repeating jerking movement, I would think that for the arms they would go up higher and outwards in a slow fluid motion, and for the jerking movement when the character jumps up or down while in mid air, should slowly raise up while the arms are moving up and out in a slow fluid motion.

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Hmm... that skirt on Chun-Li

Hmm... that skirt on Chun-Li doesn't seem to always look right.
It seems like the skirt gets reset when another stance or animation starts!? ;)

If i'm not mistaken Street Fighter 5 is made with Unreal Engine 4 as well?

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It looks like four has the

It looks like four has the greater texture. Though, the example is human-looking, I would like to see the bio organic skins. As well as the other body types.
Number two looks great also, not sure if they are the same. Could tell you are having fun creating this.

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Skin 4... but I don't know if

Skin 4... but I don't know if I'm being swayed by the physique.

Loved the video! That's a whole crusade of capes. While I'm not always a caper, or any other edible flower bud, I do hope this might also [eventually] accommodate full cloth sleeves :)

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I am mostly concerned with

I am mostly concerned about the lightness with which cape and "hair" flutter through the wind. I am confident they will be made much more rigid/heavy in the development process however.

NightProwl wrote:

I like the way that the capes move, a lot of people doesn't take in account of simulation of wind blowing in the game ( you know when your character is standing still and the wind slightly blows your hair and cape ).

These have nothing to do with each other. Heavy cloth falls down. Thin strands of hair create a complex matrix that improves its rigidity up to a point where nothing happens until you hop on a bicycle. Even a thin silk scarf generally doesn't flutter around. It takes noticeable winds to make body textiles and hair other than your pony flutter at all, and it takes a heavy storm to get anywhere near the effect we see in the video.

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Love the video. I

Love the video. I particularly like how the cape almost strangles the poor guy a few times. CoX capes never did that, and they probably should have. It's more realistic.

On that note, and this is nitpicking, the eyes look very "painted on" when you look at a close-up of a face. Is there any way to improve on that? For example, could we have spherical eyes embedded inside the head volume, which eyes actually rotate so that the iris in pointing in the direction that you're looking in? Or is it possible to have irises that move around the eye-white area such that they look in different directions?

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Love the video. I particularly like how the cape almost strangles the poor guy a few times. CoX capes never did that, and they probably should have. It's more realistic.
On that note, and this is nitpicking, the eyes look very "painted on" when you look at a close-up of a face. Is there any way to improve on that? For example, could we have spherical eyes embedded inside the head volume, which eyes actually rotate so that the iris in pointing in the direction that you're looking in? Or is it possible to have irises that move around the eye-white area such that they look in different directions?

I have a tendency to instinctively play the devils advocate, so maybe don't take this too seriously, but, while in general I am an advocate of relatively realistic feel/look, Batman and his cape would never work "realistically". He would cut that crap right the heck off after his very first fight--if he survived.

So, while I do want relatively realistic look and feel for capes, no having to unwind it from my neck after, or, worse, during a fight, please (and the point is moot anyway cause the Devs have already said they're just leaving it unrestricted to see what they have to work with and rein in).

Also, as far as the eye thing goes, the eyes you describe might be moving away from a "graphic" style that can age well to highly realistic style that probably wouldn't--and perhaps even moving into the uncanny valley.

Again, devil's advocate, so take with salt grain.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Also, to come back to the

Also, to come back to the skins as they asked us to talk about it: 1 & 2 are fine for Scandinavians and nerds, 3 looks like an amateur photog overexposed the motiv, and 4 is the most regular/"lifelike" looking one. That is to say it represents how we look like for most of the time the best, talking as a Central European.

Shadow Elusive
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As the write up explains,

As the write up explains, this cape video is testing physics, period - it's not refined to behave as we want them to behave in game yet. We're working on that, but a bug prevented us from showing it in the video.

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dreamcatcher
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Skin 2 is fine for paler

Skin 2 is fine for paler complexions, andbty level of detail, while possibly roo real I'm the face itself feels god for overall skin texturesm. 4 seems to represent a different genus. 3 looks good for artificial entities. The slightly too-smooth nature and reflective qualities seem right for an android or robot or sun-entity, etc

of Phoenix Rising
Am I

Doctor Tyche
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Love the video. I particularly like how the cape almost strangles the poor guy a few times. CoX capes never did that, and they probably should have. It's more realistic.
On that note, and this is nitpicking, the eyes look very "painted on" when you look at a close-up of a face. Is there any way to improve on that? For example, could we have spherical eyes embedded inside the head volume, which eyes actually rotate so that the iris in pointing in the direction that you're looking in? Or is it possible to have irises that move around the eye-white area such that they look in different directions?

A good eye, they are, indeed, painted on. This was an early design decision, but let me explain why it was done.

Adding eye meshes results in the need for bones to control them, and also reduces the ability to manipulate the head mesh itself. Keep in mind, there is a finite limit to the number of bones you can use in any skeleton, so the more you dedicate to things like Eyes, the less you can use in other areas, like fingers. And if you manipulate the mesh, sizing up or down, you would then have to adjust the eyes as separate entities, which increases both the work needed and makes it far harder to avoid the Uncanny Valley.

So, for the inclusion of actual, physical eye models, the answer is "Depends on what you are willing to sacrifice."

Now, thanks to the power of Unreal's material engine, we can make eyes which can look in different directions, blink, etc. For this demonstration, we only used a primative eye material, as it was for focusing on the skin.

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harpospoke
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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

As the write up explains, this cape video is testing physics, period - it's not refined to behave as we want them to behave in game yet. We're working on that, but a bug prevented us from showing it in the video.

It still looks pretty awesome even though it needs a tweak or two. Loving the way the character moves and the shadows too.

Brutum
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Best of luck to you dev folks

Best of luck to you dev folks. Just thought I'd say hi since it's been ages since I've poked my head in here.

StellarAgent
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Watching the video (with my

Watching the video (with my son who also played CoX, first sitting on my lap as a baby pushing the Space Bar, then as a young boy with his own account), and two things came to us as we watched:

First: Can we have a Dr. Who style scarf? Please?

Second: We loved the solidity of the characters, but can we please have One NPC in the new game that can actually push us aside? Just a tiny little homage.

Love the work in progress guys, this is what gets the two of us at home (and hopefully a third, as I've turned my daughter to the Blue side as well) excited about playing / replaying our favorites again.

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From what I see skin 0:

From what I see skin 0: looks good, the costume looks metallic and the tights look like cloth. There is a small aura at the bottom of the cape though. Skin 1: The eyes are cool however the skin looks like molded "silly putty". Skin 2: The face on the left is much better. It has more detail, better proportions, and color, and the ears are the right size, not freakishly small like the one on the right. Skin 3: The costume looks good but he looks like he has on skin-colored bike shorts under his metallic loin cloth, and he has a yellow aura all around him. Skin 4: The skin model looks pretty good so far, it has good muscle definition. With a few more details, texture, and shading it will look great.