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Discuss: Tales from the Underworld: Hideout

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warcabbit
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Discuss: Tales from the Underworld: Hideout

Things are heating up and getting closer to a conclusion!
PS: The July 4th update's gonna be explosive!


Lead-In for What You Know: Fans’ Choice
By Jack “Olantern” Snyder

We, the writers of City of Titans, enjoy seeing you respond excitedly to the bits of lore we reveal in these updates. We have seen your positive responses to the What You Know series of excerpts from CapeChaser.com, Titan City’s favorite super-watching website. For an upcoming What You Know, we’d like to offer you the opportunity to choose which characters or faction you’d like to read about. Therefore, we offer you a selection of some of the hundreds of characters and groups who make up the world of Titan City and invite you to pick one to be the subject of a What You Know this fall. Please let us know by August 3, 2016 which of the following you’d like to see as the subject of What You Know: Fans’ Choice!

The Pyrebrands: An arrogant “loose cannon” street gang who’ve acquired pyrokinetic powers by consuming the strange narcotic known as “Chaser.”

PIT: Paranormal Investigations and Tracking, a government agency dedicated to tracking down, capturing, and studying paranormal objects and entities.

The Jade Men: A heroic wandering gang of martial artists who wander, serving justice rather than the law with their talented fists and embodying the ‘secret martial arts world.’

Art of Deduction: A private detective agency staffed by a group of superpowered investigators willing to handle whatever case comes their way.

Baron Otto von Korrect: A deranged genius obsessed with perfection, this bizarre villain seeks to bend the world to fit his vision!

Dangerbelle: Dangerbelle's precognitive ability keeps this adrenalin junkie heroine safe while chasing after adventure and has also helped out in her day job.

Captain Orbit: A former Silver Age hero, Captain Orbit now operates Downtown’s Orbit Room, a popular hangout for heroes. He often passes on tips or other information to heroic visitors as a way of staying “in the game.”

Kingfisher: The Kingfisher is a burglar extraordinaire, the self-styled “thief of kings and king of thieves.” No treasure is safe from the talons of the Kingfisher. He patterns himself after the kingfisher bird and tends to strike his targets from his specialized hover jet.

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Poor Frank. I wonder if all

Poor Frank. I wonder if all this will set him on the path to redemption?

Apropos something completely different, reading the bit about that Savpoint Inn (har!) being a dive prompted the thought of allowing players to set a particular location as a "favorite hangout". My idea is primarily that it'd be a place where contacts might go to meet the PC, or leave messages for them, since they know that there's a good chance the PC will show up there sooner rather than later.

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I like this form of story

I like this form of story telling.

If only he was trying to hide behind something, like a table, right as the explosion expelled him into the gulf. I like to see hints of Luck, or Fate, sprinkled in from time to time. Like the Cop at the Door, which he saw at the trial. That sort of stuff gives me the Good Feelz! ;)

I very much dislike it when writers "Write At Me", instead of "Write With Me" approach.
I want only just enough info to make up my own mind who a character is. ;)
But if you HAVE to Exposition, do it through 3rd parties, in banter, or some form of repertoire, through conversation.

Good Job.

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Oooh, more exciting stories,

Oooh, more exciting stories, with a cliffhanger!

Checking the reviews on the SavPoint Inn Highpoint Corner...
Rating: This structure needs significant repairs and cleaning before we will consider raising its rating to Zero Stars.

So, would that explosive July Fourth update be expected that Monday, or the more usual Wednesday? I need to know when to break out my heavy armor. ^_^

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This is FABULOUS, which

This is FABULOUS, which happens to be the way I like a story told. I cannot wait to at least be among the first of the Kickstarters to beta test our city :D

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Lead-In for What You Know:

Lead-In for What You Know: Fans’ Choice
By Jack “Olantern” Snyder

We, the writers of City of Titans, enjoy seeing you respond excitedly to the bits of lore we reveal in these updates. We have seen your positive responses to the What You Know series of excerpts from CapeChaser.com, Titan City’s favorite super-watching website. For an upcoming What You Know, we’d like to offer you the opportunity to choose which characters or faction you’d like to read about. Therefore, we offer you a selection of some of the hundreds of characters and groups who make up the world of Titan City and invite you to pick one to be the subject of a What You Know this fall. Please let us know by August 3, 2016 which of the following you’d like to see as the subject of What You Know: Fans’ Choice!

The Pyrebrands: An arrogant “loose cannon” street gang who’ve acquired pyrokinetic powers by consuming the strange narcotic known as “Chaser.”

PIT: Paranormal Investigations and Tracking, a government agency dedicated to tracking down, capturing, and studying paranormal objects and entities.

The Jade Men: A heroic wandering gang of martial artists who wander, serving justice rather than the law with their talented fists and embodying the ‘secret martial arts world.’

Art of Deduction: A private detective agency staffed by a group of superpowered investigators willing to handle whatever case comes their way.

Baron Otto von Korrect: A deranged genius obsessed with perfection, this bizarre villain seeks to bend the world to fit his vision!

Dangerbelle: Dangerbelle's precognitive ability keeps this adrenalin junkie heroine safe while chasing after adventure and has also helped out in her day job.

Captain Orbit: A former Silver Age hero, Captain Orbit now operates Downtown’s Orbit Room, a popular hangout for heroes. He often passes on tips or other information to heroic visitors as a way of staying “in the game.”

Kingfisher: The Kingfisher is a burglar extraordinaire, the self-styled “thief of kings and king of thieves.” No treasure is safe from the talons of the Kingfisher. He patterns himself after the kingfisher bird and tends to strike his targets from his specialized hover jet.

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Foradain
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I'm going to place my vote

I'm going to place my vote for Dangerbelle, if only because of her similarities to the Duchess. Does Dangerbelle have foresight? Fivesight? Sixsight?

Second choice would be Art of Deduction, for the practical tips in Forensic Sorcery.

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My interest is piqued by all

My interest is piqued by all the heroes, but 'The Jade Men' intrigue me. Only, I hope they're not All Men. So I'd argue for changing it to 'The Jade Band' or something. I can just imagine a group of people 'living in plain sight', but unnoticed by the populace... um, like Highlander, only without the silliness and SFX. You never know when some passing 'normal' will break out the kung fu and save/wreck your life.

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Man, that was an enjoyable

Man, that was an enjoyable read. I always love seeing a character that's intelligent and skilled like that, and mafia can definitely be that.

As for the future, my vote goes to Art of Deduction. I've spent a lot of time in the Worm fandom, and discussions about how thinker powers work and fanfictions about them in action makes them extremely interesting to me.

I'm also interested in the PIT, though. I'm rarely clear on what constitutes "paranormal" in super hero universes.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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I vote for the PIT.

I vote for the PIT.

On a side note: Can I constantly distract Baron Otto von Korrect by intentionally misspelling words and using bad grammar?

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Argh! I can't choose! Give me

Argh! I can't choose! Give me all of them! >.<

I'm going to toss my vote to Captain Orbit, if only because the Orbit Room sounds like it might be our version of Pocket D.

Fireheart wrote:

My interest is piqued by all the heroes, but 'The Jade Men' intrigue me. Only, I hope they're not All Men. So I'd argue for changing it to 'The Jade Band' or something.

Unless there is some cultural or historical (read: lore) reason for them to be The Jade Men, I'm inclined to agree with Fireheart. Perhaps go with The Jade People? Sounds a bit more ominous, to me, and it's still less cliche than 'clan'.*



* Because I'm in an oversharing mood, entire factions that are all men, for no good reason, have become something of a peeve.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Perhaps go with 'The Jade People'?

LOL! Um, sorry, that just made me think they'd be a musical performance group. YMCA

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I'd like to hear more about

I'd like to hear more about PIT, because I'm curious to know how broad or narrow our definition of 'Paranormal' is, here. Is it broad to the point of including everything from vampires, warlocks, and restless spirits through to aliens, mutants, and general mad science? Or is it more narrowly focused on the more mystic side of the fence? If the latter, then I'm assuming that there's a different agency that handles the mad science stuff, and possibly one that only deals with aliens.

As for the Jade "Men" thing, I'm completely okay with it if there's a reasonable explanation for the name and/or the organization being exclusively male. I have confidence that the MWM writers know what they're doing. For example, would it reasonable if the Jade Men are portrayed as being traditional to a fault, and are actually suffering for it? Maybe they only train the firstborn sons of members in their secret ways, and that means they're facing a very uncertain future in the 21st century. It could even be a case of the name simply being a holdover from a time when the organization WAS exclusively male.

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Dangerbelle sounds

Dangerbelle sounds interesting, but I think I wanna hear more about Captain Orbit.

And I know I'm inviting trouble by saying this, but is it really so important to be so hung up on a name? Jade Men has a better ring to it than any of those other suggestions and just because "men" is in the name doesn't mean there aren't any women in the group. I'm all for having more badass women out there, but I'm getting a bit sick of people getting all out of sorts over political correctness.

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TroublesomeKnight wrote:
TroublesomeKnight wrote:

I'm all for having more badass women out there, but I'm getting a bit sick of people getting all out of sorts over political correctness.

So, that's one vote for changing their name to The Jade Women, then?

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Or, y'know, it could be a

Or, y'know, it could be a translation artifact...

After all, the original usage of the word "Man" was actually gender indeterminate in Old English. What we use to refer to a group of female humans, "Women" seems to be an evolution of the original term, "wifmen" or a compound of "Wif" for female (which appears to have also evolved into both waif and wife), and "man" for referring to our species. Though I'll admit that this is strictly for the progression of Old English to its modern equivalent.

When you look at even older languages, it can be a mite bit stranger. It's always worthwhile to examine the etymology of a term because it can reveal hidden details about the associated cultural baggage.

I do agree that "The Jade Men" comes across as more linguistically pleasing than the alternatives presented.

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On the subject of the 'Jade

On the subject of the 'Jade Men' thing, keep in mind that a lot of languages, including Asian, European, and African, lack certain gender descriptors. Some Languages (such as french, if I recall correctly) take this in the opposite direction and have a gender asigned to everything.

In this case, it's likely that the "Men" part of the name is actually more accurately translated as something like "People" or "Followers of the order of [thing]" or something to that effect. Men is just a translation that rolls off the tongue better than most, and due to the nature of anglicization, it's what would fall into common vernacular. So don't worry too much about that one, the writers know what they're doing here, and we don't need to derail the thread any further.

Aegis wrote:

I'd like to hear more about PIT, because I'm curious to know how broad or narrow our definition of 'Paranormal' is, here. Is it broad to the point of including everything from vampires, warlocks, and restless spirits through to aliens, mutants, and general mad science? Or is it more narrowly focused on the more mystic side of the fence? If the latter, then I'm assuming that there's a different agency that handles the mad science stuff, and possibly one that only deals with aliens.

That's pretty much a guarantee in my mind. I'm willing to bet Paranormal interacts with three things here; magic, immortal entities (this would include things like demons and fey), and eldritch beings (lovecraftian stuff). The other things you mentioned no doubt fall under the jurisdiction of other agencies - General mad science, for instance, would likely fall under local police and hero jurisdiction, while aliens would more likely have a government agency to contend with. Mutants being what they are no doubt have a set of activist groups.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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Without spoiling anything, I

Without spoiling anything, I will like to point out that calling a woman a 'fallen jade' or a 'jade' is rather nasty, if obsolete, slang for an adultress.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEV55fCkW80 Have a song.

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Let's see... PIT, let's say.

Let's see... PIT, let's say. Let's see whether they're more like a government spook conspiracy or warehouse 23.

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Much as it would be cool if

Much as it would be cool if the PIT crew are SJG/RPG geeks, I think you meant Warehouse 13.

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Very true. The risks of

Very true. The risks of overlapping fanbases...

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The Jade Ones. Though I like

The Jade Ones.

Though I like Terwyn's comment about translation artifacts. Traditional martial arts are rife with those. Jade Men is great and fine with me, but Jade Ones is PC and, I think, just as linguistically pleasing. Either way...

Fun fact, "Jade Maiden" is a term used in many Chinese martial arts to describe certain movements, a la "Jade Maiden Weaves at the Shuttle" in Tai Chi (Taijiquan).

Warehouse 13 was awesome. It died before it's time like Jake 2.0 and Threshold.

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Are the X-men all men? No

Are the X-men all men? No they are not. Y'all are reading waaay too much into the Jade Men thing.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Are the X-men all men? No they are not. Y'all are reading waaay too much into the Jade Men thing.

At the time that Jubilation Lee hooked up with them (in the comic books; not the movies ^_^) , they seemed to be all women. ^_^

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PIT!

PIT!

I need some magic lore for my main to piggyback on ;)

Isn't that maybe dangerously close to the Midnight Club, though?

PS: didn't the midnight club go grossly underused? They were basically the buffer to Cimeron, not their own entity.

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Alright, alright, I withdraw

Alright, alright, I withdraw any objection! It was just a thing.

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The Jade Men is fine for

The Jade Men is fine for Christs sake. I'm sure there will be plenty of female badassery to contend with in the city. There's a line of ridiculousness in being too PC or SJW and I feel like some of you are about to cross it.

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I feel that attacking someone

I feel that attacking someone for asking a question is definitely crossing a line.

But maybe I'm biased.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

I feel that attacking someone for asking a question is definitely crossing a line.
But maybe I'm biased.

Where was the question? Or the attack for that matter?

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

PIT!
I need some magic lore for my main to piggyback on ;)
Isn't that maybe dangerously close to the Midnight Club, though?
PS: didn't the midnight club go grossly underused? They were basically the buffer to Cimeron, not their own entity.

PIT is, according to what little we know about them so far, a government entity. The Midnight Squad was, to the best of my knowledge, a private organization.

IIRC, the justification given for the Midnight Squad being mostly absent was that as magic users, they took a particularly brutal beating during the Rikti War.

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I suppose that's an okay

I suppose that's an okay excuse. But they still could've done much more with them.

Too late now I suppose :/

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I vote for Art of Deduction.

I vote for Art of Deduction.

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The Baron please! Villains

The Baron please! Villains with visions are the best, even if they are perfect. "Kould kollaborating kapes even kome klose?" I imagine him having some pretty intense enunciation.

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Hmm hmm. I think I shall vote

Hmm hmm. I think I shall vote for the least represented, Kingfisher. But really all of these folks seem like they have some interesting tales attached.

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PIT

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I'm guessing that PIT is the

I'm guessing that PIT is the CoT equivalent of SCP, am I right? :p

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The Jades. The Jade. The Jade

The Jades. The Jade. The Jade Force. The Jade Warriors. The Jade Keepers.

I vote for the PIT!

And the Jade Men thing is not equivalent to the X-Men - we're not calling anyone an "X", but "Jade" is an identifier. The Jade Men doesn't equal The J-Men. The former is way more identified with the "Men" part, whereas "J-Men" is one term and so not as focused on the "Men" identifier. Trust your feelings, you know it to be true! =P I think when it's X-Men, the non-gender-specific definition of men comes into play, as others mentioned above. Ask a linguistics scholar - but can't you guys feel the difference?

Not a big deal, in any case. Except for some women. And men. But not for me, except I find the name a little clunker-y. Reminds me of the Stone Men from Game of Thrones. Any women in there? Probably.

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AxerJ wrote:
AxerJ wrote:

The Jades. The Jade. The Jade Force. The Jade Warriors. The Jade Keepers.
I vote for the PIT!
And the Jade Men thing is not equivalent to the X-Men - we're not calling anyone an "X", but "Jade" is an identifier. The Jade Men doesn't equal The J-Men. The former is way more identified with the "Men" part, whereas "J-Men" is one term and so not as focused on the "Men" identifier. Trust your feelings, you know it to be true! =P I think when it's X-Men, the non-gender-specific definition of men comes into play, as others mentioned above. Ask a linguistics scholar - but can't you guys feel the difference?
Not a big deal, in any case. Except for some women. And men. But not for me, except I find the name a little clunker-y. Reminds me of the Stone Men from Game of Thrones. Any women in there? Probably.

Makes me think of Mystery Men, with Janeane Garofalo. ;)

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AxerJ wrote:
AxerJ wrote:

The Jades. The Jade. The Jade Force. The Jade Warriors. The Jade Keepers.
I vote for the PIT!
And the Jade Men thing is not equivalent to the X-Men - we're not calling anyone an "X", but "Jade" is an identifier. The Jade Men doesn't equal The J-Men. The former is way more identified with the "Men" part, whereas "J-Men" is one term and so not as focused on the "Men" identifier. Trust your feelings, you know it to be true! =P I think when it's X-Men, the non-gender-specific definition of men comes into play, as others mentioned above. Ask a linguistics scholar - but can't you guys feel the difference?
Not a big deal, in any case. Except for some women. And men. But not for me, except I find the name a little clunker-y. Reminds me of the Stone Men from Game of Thrones. Any women in there? Probably.

I think you may be over thinking this slightly, for one I don't think that the use of the dash makes the X in X-Men any less an identifier as it is identifying them as Xavier's men; and secondly "men" is commonly used to refer to a large group of people of ALL genders (and has been used as such since the 1800's), which means that it IS grammatically correct in all forms.

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Seahawk25 wrote:
Seahawk25 wrote:

...and secondly "men" is commonly used to refer to a large group of people of ALL genders (and has been used as such since the 1800's), which means that it IS grammatically correct in all forms.

If we were to allow the likes of "it's always been this way" (and, by extension, "it's more pleasing") as valid arguments, MWM might as well kick all efforts at being different and inclusive to the curb. That is how I read Fireheart's suggestion: just because it's always been that way is no reason to keep it that way. Asking for clarification or making suggestions should not result in the kinds of replies that make the person feel that they need to retract their question or comment.

Most disappointing is that even people from MWM felt the need to try to invalidate Fireheart's suggestion rather than to answer the question being asked.

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First: Kudos to the writers,

First: Kudos to the writers, the story was awesome.

Second: My vote goes to Captain Orbit and the Orbit Room. And after that, the Jade men.
Villains will always sell, but Heroes are why I read the comics.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Seahawk25 wrote:
...and secondly "men" is commonly used to refer to a large group of people of ALL genders (and has been used as such since the 1800's), which means that it IS grammatically correct in all forms.
If we were to allow the likes of "it's always been this way" (and, by extension, "it's more pleasing") as valid arguments, MWM might as well kick all efforts at being different and inclusive to the curb. That is how I read Fireheart's suggestion: just because it's always been that way is no reason to keep it that way. Asking for clarification or making suggestions should not result in the kinds of replies that make the person feel that they need to retract their question or comment.
Most disappointing is that even people from MWM felt the need to try to invalidate Fireheart's suggestion rather than to answer the question being asked.

I apologise but i really wasn't trying to get anyone upset. I agree that changing things ARE good, but that really doesn't apply to grammatical use and the meaning of words which DO stay the same; we are not trying to be insulting we are simply stating that people shouldn't read to much into things that really don't matter. And you really can't apply trying to make something unique to the use of words and grammar, those two things have nothing to do with each other.

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My vote : Dangerbell

My vote : Dangerbell

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I vote for the pyrebands

I vote for the pyrebands

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Regardless -- or maybe

Regardless (or maybe because of) historical usage, I would think that any organisation that wishes to be inclusive would set an example by avoiding terms that tend to diminish a part of the population. I mean, even Star Trek changed the famous phrase to "Where no one has gone before" in order to promote a vision of a more egalitarian future.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Or maybe we can cease

Or maybe we can cease derailing the thread. That'd be nice.

If you have an issue, this is not the place for it. Take it down to General Discussion or Suggestions.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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I'll cast my vote for Captain

I'll cast my vote for Captain Orbit.

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Baron Otto von Korrect...

Baron Otto von Korrect... sorry to be a nitpicker, but the correct spelling of Korrect would be Korrekt.
But if you leave his name as it is, please give us a chance to call Mr. Perfectionist out on this. Bonus points if doing so sends him into a BSOD. =P

That said, great story as usual. And I for one would like to know more about the Pyrebrands.

When people ask me about my religion, I tell 'em I'd worship Cthulhu.

How bad could I possibly be? Let's see...

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The correct spelling is, in

The correct spelling is, in this case, is Korrect. There's a reason, really.

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

The Jade Men is fine for Christs sake. I'm sure there will be plenty of female badassery to contend with in the city. There's a line of ridiculousness in being too PC or SJW and I feel like some of you are about to cross it.

Hyperbole much? You act like people were screaming that the name absolutely had to be changed, rather than asking for clarification or posting a suggestion. Which is all they have been doing thus far.

That hyperbole is ridiculous.

Is there better example of "political correctness" than trying to shut down the conversation because well, you're okay with it and that's how it's always been done?

Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :)

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Voting Totals so far:

Voting Totals so far:

6 PIT
4 Captain Orbit
2 Art of Deduction
2 Dangerbelle
2 Pyrebrands
1 Baron Otto von Korrect
1 Jade Men
1 Kingfisher

Keep voting for what you want to see. You have until 3 August to cast your vote!

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Tbh, I'd rather know more

Tbh, I'd rather know more about the Unicorns (if they were more than a joke) than any of those you listed.
From what I've read so far, they should be like a mixture of Lost and Trolls... with just a touch of Red Caps.

When people ask me about my religion, I tell 'em I'd worship Cthulhu.

How bad could I possibly be? Let's see...

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When I read about the Jade

When I read about the Jade Men I imagined something like the 18 Bronzemen, except with jade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACzfwF3e2aw (big influence on Mortal Kombat, I think).
So, I hope they're all Buddhist monks, and I hope they are all men, and all Chinese men! How'd you like that? :P

My vote goes to them, the Jade Men. All thirty of the bald-headed, celibate, vegetarian deadly bastards, avenging the death of their abbot at the shrine of the Jade Mandala!

However, if I really have one wish it's that whatever the story of all these characters in this announcement, you treat them as seriously and non-hokey as if the setting were straight-up crime or hard sci-fi. Make the lore of the game as sober and serious as you can bring yourselves to, for a superhero setting, something like the X-Men cinematic universe or even Nolan Bat-films in tone.
I say this because I've played Champions Online, which is currently the closest thing we have to City of Heroes. The further away from that you make this game, the better, I say.

"TRUST ME."

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Agreed wholeheartedly, Gluke!

Agreed wholeheartedly, Gluke!

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Thanks, AxerJ. I hope this is

Thanks, AxerJ. I hope this is the way it goes. Remember that if the devs play the lore and background straight as opposed to campy (and maybe with dark, wry or clever humour rather than goofy or slapstick) then players can respond well to it while stil making goofy or comedic characters if they choose to, in fact the humour of that might come off a lot better against a serious background. However, the reverse is NOT possible, ie you can't make a serious-styled character against a campy background, it just wouldn't work.

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I'll +1 an at least mostly

I'll +1 an at least mostly serious tone . Fits the spirit of CoH.

CoH was good storytelling with an occasional dash of camp as comic relief. Champions overdoes the camp by a mile.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I always loved that CoH had

I always loved that CoH had what my boyfriend calls "Bioware Darkness"

The world would kinda suck to live in, due to all the problems constantly pushing at the lives of normal people (gangs and cultists - sometimes even cultist gangs - when they aren't being threatened by ridiculous disasters, doom scenarios, and similar problems), but there's genuine light in the world if you look for it, and the characters can find happiness, fun, and even love with one another. There's also a few ridiculous situations that, while they are identifiably ridiculous, they don't detract from the relative seriousness of the setting.

That's what I want for CoT and, in my opinion, it fits super hero comics in general; the stakes are high, but the characters can still cut loose and enjoy themselves when given the chance, a break from all the threats.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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That was one of my problems

That was one of my problems with the Rogue Isles, it was so unremittingly Grim and miserable.

Be Well!
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The Rouge Isles was pretty

The Rouge Isles was pretty much like Gotham City at it's absolute worse with no heroes (as most of the heroes that go over there end up likely dying) in sight.

No wonder that place churns out villains and vigilantes like a factory....

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What's funny is the Rogue

What's funny is the Rogue Isles reminded me of just a realistic city if every district was an industrial one or a public housing project.

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Actually, the Rogue Isles

Actually, the Rogue Isles were, IMO, a surprisingly realistic take on what a malignant autocracy in decline looks like. Which means that in a setting like the old CoHverse, they serve as an excellent object lesson of why it's important that to make sure that people like Lord Recluse and his cronies don't "win", under any definition of the term.

Fishpeople, evil wizards, ghosts, and people dressed up like spiders aside, the Rogue Isles aren't that unrealistic at all, as scary as that concept may be. You've got an ambitious psychopath who was lucky and/or skilled enough to seize power, the circle of less skilled and/or lucky but no less ambitious psychopaths that have gathered around, and the throngs of sycophants and opportunists they've attracted. The "government" such as it is, exists solely to serve the egomaniacal whims of the aforementioned psychopaths and protect their powerbase(s), but it's terribly inefficient even at that because everyone, from top to bottom, is always fighting for control over a slice of the ever-diminishing pie. Said pie is shrinking because everyone with any actual power can't be bothered to care about anything beyond their egomania and power plays. Normally, such a "system" lasts only as long as it takes for the boss to die, which is most often followed by all the underlings tearing everything down as they vie for power because none of them were (by design, mind you) able to position themselves as a clear successor and (again, by design) the whole system was predicated on the one at the top. In the case of the Rogue Isles, the inevitable collapse is delayed because the dictator at the top is a functionally immortal spider god.

In that sense, the Rogue Isles demonstrate that the writers behind CoH put a great deal of effort and thought into building a world that was believable, and somewhat realistic, without compromising it's role as a setting for superheroes and supervillains.

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I don't disagree with any of

I don't disagree with any of this. However, this is the reason why I never played Redside, except the bare minimum to try the ATs, and as soon as it was possible, brought most of those characters over to Blueside. I didn't want to 'live' in the Rogue Isles and I did not want to participate in the psychotic web of power.

The cognitive dissonance drove me out of Praetoria, too.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Well, some people just aren't

Well, some people just aren't cut out to be bad, Fire. ;) I guess it depends if you find criminality interesting enough as a concept, as I always did, to want to play through a narrative of that nature, as well as show off your badass toon to others. I was never troubled by any kind of moral qualm, because no matter what, a game is just a game.

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Yup, Klingon Promotion (http:
Aegis wrote:

Actually, the Rogue Isles were, IMO, a surprisingly realistic take on what a malignant autocracy in decline looks like. Which means that in a setting like the old CoHverse, they serve as an excellent object lesson of why it's important that to make sure that people like Lord Recluse and his cronies don't "win", under any definition of the term.
Fishpeople, evil wizards, ghosts, and people dressed up like spiders aside, the Rogue Isles aren't that unrealistic at all, as scary as that concept may be. You've got an ambitious psychopath who was lucky and/or skilled enough to seize power, the circle of less skilled and/or lucky but no less ambitious psychopaths that have gathered around, and the throngs of sycophants and opportunists they've attracted. The "government" such as it is, exists solely to serve the egomaniacal whims of the aforementioned psychopaths and protect their powerbase(s), but it's terribly inefficient even at that because everyone, from top to bottom, is always fighting for control over a slice of the ever-diminishing pie. Said pie is shrinking because everyone with any actual power can't be bothered to care about anything beyond their egomania and power plays. Normally, such a "system" lasts only as long as it takes for the boss to die, which is most often followed by all the underlings tearing everything down as they vie for power because none of them were (by design, mind you) able to position themselves as a clear successor and (again, by design) the whole system was predicated on the one at the top. In the case of the Rogue Isles, the inevitable collapse is delayed because the dictator at the top is a functionally immortal spider god.
In that sense, the Rogue Isles demonstrate that the writers behind CoH put a great deal of effort and thought into building a world that was believable, and somewhat realistic, without compromising it's role as a setting for superheroes and supervillains.

Yup, Klingon Promotion (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KlingonPromotion). However, I hope that we get a villain faction, or even some branch of it, that is a little more sensible than the Third Reich, and instead of homocidal squabbling there is a structure to the chaos. Real-life exmaples of mobsters often have the more notorious and anarchic loose cannons being effective enforcers and colourful characters, but annoying unreliable and subject to short shelf-lives, as they make enemies so easily and attract police attention. The most successful criminal overlords are more consistent and dependable, reward their underlings sufficiently and maintain order over their gangs, and in certain cases make the most of their 'legitimate' front company roles to gain public and popular support as loyal members of the community. For example, those in poorer communities like Jamaican gangs and provincial China, Mexico etc actually fund public services and facilities and repair common utilities in order to gain support of the common people, and thus people actually trust them much more than they do the legal authorities in a Better The Devil You Know kinda deal, while common people with genuine problems and grievances can even appeal to them, and the local Don can resolve the dispute with a single word to the offending party. This also happens in ethnic communities outside the country of origin, like US Chinatowns, Little Italy(s) etc, as their communities are often more insular and co-dependant socially, and criminals can take advantage of that. It also happened in areas of relative lawlessness like Dodge City, Deadwood, pirate havens in the Jamaicas, or more recently Kowloon Walled City (great resource on that: http://cityofdarkness.co.uk/category/the_city/)
Likewise, those areas become paradoxially very safe for the average person, since anyone who offends the locals, disturbs the peace or commits a crime without permission can expect savage reprisals. You can see examples of this in The Godfather, Eastern Promises, Year of the Dragon, Gangs of New York, The Warriors, Sopranos, Deadwood, and other stuff. Vincent D'Onofrio's Kingpin in Daredevil is a super-example.
It would be cool if we see a similar logical tactic adopted by the villains in CoT, if they actually run an established locale like Rogue Isles.

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Gluke wrote:
Gluke wrote:

Aegis wrote:
Actually, the Rogue Isles were, IMO, a surprisingly realistic take on what a malignant autocracy in decline looks like. Which means that in a setting like the old CoHverse, they serve as an excellent object lesson of why it's important that to make sure that people like Lord Recluse and his cronies don't "win", under any definition of the term.
Fishpeople, evil wizards, ghosts, and people dressed up like spiders aside, the Rogue Isles aren't that unrealistic at all, as scary as that concept may be. You've got an ambitious psychopath who was lucky and/or skilled enough to seize power, the circle of less skilled and/or lucky but no less ambitious psychopaths that have gathered around, and the throngs of sycophants and opportunists they've attracted. The "government" such as it is, exists solely to serve the egomaniacal whims of the aforementioned psychopaths and protect their powerbase(s), but it's terribly inefficient even at that because everyone, from top to bottom, is always fighting for control over a slice of the ever-diminishing pie. Said pie is shrinking because everyone with any actual power can't be bothered to care about anything beyond their egomania and power plays. Normally, such a "system" lasts only as long as it takes for the boss to die, which is most often followed by all the underlings tearing everything down as they vie for power because none of them were (by design, mind you) able to position themselves as a clear successor and (again, by design) the whole system was predicated on the one at the top. In the case of the Rogue Isles, the inevitable collapse is delayed because the dictator at the top is a functionally immortal spider god.
In that sense, the Rogue Isles demonstrate that the writers behind CoH put a great deal of effort and thought into building a world that was believable, and somewhat realistic, without compromising it's role as a setting for superheroes and supervillains.
Yup, Klingon Promotion (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KlingonPromotion). However, I hope that we get a villain faction, or even some branch of it, that is a little more sensible than the Third Reich, and instead of homocidal squabbling there is a structure to the chaos. Real-life exmaples of mobsters often have the more notorious and anarchic loose cannons being effective enforcers and colourful characters, but annoying unreliable and subject to short shelf-lives, as they make enemies so easily and attract police attention. The most successful criminal overlords are more consistent and dependable, reward their underlings sufficiently and maintain order over their gangs, and in certain cases make the most of their 'legitimate' front company roles to gain public and popular support as loyal members of the community. For example, those in poorer communities like Jamaican gangs and provincial China, Mexico etc actually fund public services and facilities and repair common utilities in order to gain support of the common people, and thus people actually trust them much more than they do the legal authorities in a Better The Devil You Know kinda deal, while common people with genuine problems and grievances can even appeal to them, and the local Don can resolve the dispute with a single word to the offending party. This also happens in ethnic communities outside the country of origin, like US Chinatowns, Little Italy(s) etc, as their communities are often more insular and co-dependant socially, and criminals can take advantage of that. It also happened in areas of relative lawlessness like Dodge City, Deadwood, pirate havens in the Jamaicas, or more recently Kowloon Walled City (great resource on that: http://cityofdarkness.co.uk/category/the_city/)
Likewise, those areas become paradoxially very safe for the average person, since anyone who offends the locals, disturbs the peace or commits a crime without permission can expect savage reprisals. You can see examples of this in The Godfather, Eastern Promises, Year of the Dragon, Gangs of New York, The Warriors, Sopranos, Deadwood, and other stuff. Vincent D'Onofrio's Kingpin in Daredevil is a super-example.
It would be cool if we see a similar logical tactic adopted by the villains in CoT, if they actually run an established locale like Rogue Isles.

+1

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Seahawk25 wrote:
Seahawk25 wrote:

Gluke wrote:
Aegis wrote:
Actually, the Rogue Isles were, IMO, a surprisingly realistic take on what a malignant autocracy in decline looks like. Which means that in a setting like the old CoHverse, they serve as an excellent object lesson of why it's important that to make sure that people like Lord Recluse and his cronies don't "win", under any definition of the term.
Fishpeople, evil wizards, ghosts, and people dressed up like spiders aside, the Rogue Isles aren't that unrealistic at all, as scary as that concept may be. You've got an ambitious psychopath who was lucky and/or skilled enough to seize power, the circle of less skilled and/or lucky but no less ambitious psychopaths that have gathered around, and the throngs of sycophants and opportunists they've attracted. The "government" such as it is, exists solely to serve the egomaniacal whims of the aforementioned psychopaths and protect their powerbase(s), but it's terribly inefficient even at that because everyone, from top to bottom, is always fighting for control over a slice of the ever-diminishing pie. Said pie is shrinking because everyone with any actual power can't be bothered to care about anything beyond their egomania and power plays. Normally, such a "system" lasts only as long as it takes for the boss to die, which is most often followed by all the underlings tearing everything down as they vie for power because none of them were (by design, mind you) able to position themselves as a clear successor and (again, by design) the whole system was predicated on the one at the top. In the case of the Rogue Isles, the inevitable collapse is delayed because the dictator at the top is a functionally immortal spider god.
In that sense, the Rogue Isles demonstrate that the writers behind CoH put a great deal of effort and thought into building a world that was believable, and somewhat realistic, without compromising it's role as a setting for superheroes and supervillains.
Yup, Klingon Promotion (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KlingonPromotion). However, I hope that we get a villain faction, or even some branch of it, that is a little more sensible than the Third Reich, and instead of homocidal squabbling there is a structure to the chaos. Real-life exmaples of mobsters often have the more notorious and anarchic loose cannons being effective enforcers and colourful characters, but annoying unreliable and subject to short shelf-lives, as they make enemies so easily and attract police attention. The most successful criminal overlords are more consistent and dependable, reward their underlings sufficiently and maintain order over their gangs, and in certain cases make the most of their 'legitimate' front company roles to gain public and popular support as loyal members of the community. For example, those in poorer communities like Jamaican gangs and provincial China, Mexico etc actually fund public services and facilities and repair common utilities in order to gain support of the common people, and thus people actually trust them much more than they do the legal authorities in a Better The Devil You Know kinda deal, while common people with genuine problems and grievances can even appeal to them, and the local Don can resolve the dispute with a single word to the offending party. This also happens in ethnic communities outside the country of origin, like US Chinatowns, Little Italy(s) etc, as their communities are often more insular and co-dependant socially, and criminals can take advantage of that. It also happened in areas of relative lawlessness like Dodge City, Deadwood, pirate havens in the Jamaicas, or more recently Kowloon Walled City (great resource on that: http://cityofdarkness.co.uk/category/the_city/)
Likewise, those areas become paradoxially very safe for the average person, since anyone who offends the locals, disturbs the peace or commits a crime without permission can expect savage reprisals. You can see examples of this in The Godfather, Eastern Promises, Year of the Dragon, Gangs of New York, The Warriors, Sopranos, Deadwood, and other stuff. Vincent D'Onofrio's Kingpin in Daredevil is a super-example.
It would be cool if we see a similar logical tactic adopted by the villains in CoT, if they actually run an established locale like Rogue Isles.
+1

+2

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I don't disagree with any of this. However, this is the reason why I never played Redside, except the bare minimum to try the ATs, and as soon as it was possible, brought most of those characters over to Blueside. I didn't want to 'live' in the Rogue Isles and I did not want to participate in the psychotic web of power.
The cognitive dissonance drove me out of Praetoria, too.
Be Well!
Fireheart

I am pretty sure no one wanted to live in the Rouge Isles. Civilians in that setting must of lived in constant fear as at any moment something or someone could end up killing them at any moment. I imagine Dr. Vahzilok would absolutely love it there.......

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Then why WOULD they live

Then why WOULD they live there, why not move somewhere else? Like I said in post above, those in communities dominated by crime and living under crimelords often come to respect them and to view them as a natural part of social order. This comes with a mistrust of legal authority and more appreciation of what material benefits the top ranking criminals bring to the community, and in some cases a romanticized view of the criminals as Robin Hood figures and noble outlaws (this is very prevalent in Mexico with the omnipotent drug cartels) and also an aspiration in the young and foolish to join the criminals in their glamour and prosperity and the respect they command (this is universal, but good examples are in the Sicillian Cosa Nostra and Neopolitan Camorra).
People living in such a climate of crime stop questioning if it's just or not, they turn a blind eye to violence and simply accept the rules of the mob as being the way things are, and more important than any legal authority, while young boys come to look up to them as powerful and want to be a part of that. The result is cynical and morally two-faced but tightknit community, with no trust of the police, government or politicians, but a sentimental loyalty to the mobters who spend money like water and demand nervous respect from everyone. It would be interesting to see a city where the same thing applies to the shadowy costumed psychos.

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oh boy, the politics and

oh boy, the politics and sociology of poverty are here :p

Remember Grandville? the whole point was to have the safest(tm) city in the world. Now compare that to Sharkhead.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

oh boy, the politics and sociology of poverty are here :p
Remember Grandville? the whole point was to have the safest(tm) city in the world. Now compare that to Sharkhead.

I was replying to Nyktos' post and applying a little in-universe logic. If the villain-controlled city was a hellish warzone all the time, why would anyone stll live there? There has to be some reason for them to stay. True anarchy is likewise unworkable and cannot last.

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Gluke wrote:
Gluke wrote:

desviper wrote:
oh boy, the politics and sociology of poverty are here :p
Remember Grandville? the whole point was to have the safest(tm) city in the world. Now compare that to Sharkhead.
I was replying to Nyktos' post and applying a little in-universe logic. If the villain-controlled city was a hellish warzone all the time, why would anyone stll live there? There has to be some reason for them to stay. True anarchy is likewise unworkable and cannot last.

The reason to stay is that they can't afford not to. Never been poor, eh? ;)

But yeah, I was thinking in lore it's intentional to make grandville so much safer compared to the rest of the Isles: so recluse could keep a closer eye on people.

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I remember once in Hong Kong

[the following is a true story]
I remember once in Hong Kong (can't recall if this was before or after the handover), when I was in a club throwing dice. I had my back to the door. All of a sudden, several other people in the club got between me and the front door. Because I was the only foreigner there at the time, their coordinated movements caught my eye and made me a bit nervous, especially when two of them stood right behind me. I asked what was going on and all they said was that something happened outside and they wouldn't let me see it. A friend who was a local whispered to me that it was a Triad hit. For those who don't know, the Triads are the organized crime of Hong Kong. Since the other people in the club all lived there, they all fell under the control of the triad and knew that if any of them spoke to the authorities, there would be repercussions; so they were safe to witness under those conditions, as odd as that sounds.
However, because I was not a local, I could leave Hong Kong and so would not fall under the control of the Triads. As a result I would not be allowed to be a living witness if I had seen anything. That's why the locals got between me and the door. They were tyring to protect me, and probably themselves. So I stayed and threw dice for another hour or so until all the evidence was removed outside.
It was eye-opening. These people were happy and social and lived their lives like anyone else, but they had this over them all the time that would have been completely unnoticed otherwise. I felt a closeness and gratitude to these people for their kindness, but I'm glad I don't live in a place controlled by the triads.
[/end of story]
So this is a long way to say that life under the sway of powerful criminal element does not have to be all gloom and destruction. In fact, it is in the criminal elements' best interest to maintain safe neighborhoods and encourage free enterprise and commerce, so there is more for them to take a cut of. Just remember, however, that once under the influence, you have to remain under the influence. I could see this playng out as a nice subtle and dramatic/tragic mission thread associated with the family that can never escape (or can they?)


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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This is true. I believe that

This is true. I believe that most people who have that view that life in the Rogue Isles was akin to living in a war zone are primarily thinking of Mercy Island, and specifically the southern, starting zone area. The rest of the Rogue Isles, with the possible exception of the rather ominous Grandville, was not really all that different from Paragon City. Obviously the PCs wouldn't have had that sense of anything hanging over their heads because they were a part of that system that was a constant, albeit only possible, threat. Like those people Huckleberry described, they probably lived their lives normally until something happened that brought the reality crashing back down.

It would be neat if there were some stories that allowed us to see what life was like on both sides of that coin. Those could even lead to some soul-searching questions. Are they willing to be a part of such oppression? Are they content to merely live with it? Do they want to get away from it? Perhaps they might even decide to try to change it.

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So, question. It's already

So, question. It's already been decided that there will be various organized criminal elements. Will these organized crime groups have and control areas of titan city? Will these locations be the villain starting areas? It would make sense.

The interaction between these groups and the TPD at large would also be interesting story lines. The story of someone who grew up in these controlled neighborhoods, but whose family ended up on the wrong side of the criminal "justice" system. To get true justice or revenge he became a TPD officer to crack down on the thugs, as they saw them, but found the ordinary people were too entrenched and since he was now wearing a badge, cast him out. Now that officer has to struggle with being an outcast from his home community. It could be quite a gripping tale.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

[the following is a true story]
I remember once in Hong Kong (can't recall if this was before or after the handover), when I was in a club throwing dice. I had my back to the door. All of a sudden, several other people in the club got between me and the front door. Because I was the only foreigner there at the time, their coordinated movements caught my eye and made me a bit nervous, especially when two of them stood right behind me. I asked what was going on and all they said was that something happened outside and they wouldn't let me see it. A friend who was a local whispered to me that it was a Triad hit. For those who don't know, the Triads are the organized crime of Hong Kong. Since the other people in the club all lived there, they all fell under the control of the triad and knew that if any of them spoke to the authorities, there would be repercussions; so they were safe to witness under those conditions, as odd as that sounds.
However, because I was not a local, I could leave Hong Kong and so would not fall under the control of the Triads. As a result I would not be allowed to be a living witness if I had seen anything. That's why the locals got between me and the door. They were tyring to protect me, and probably themselves. So I stayed and threw dice for another hour or so until all the evidence was removed outside.
It was eye-opening. These people were happy and social and lived their lives like anyone else, but they had this over them all the time that would have been completely unnoticed otherwise. I felt a closeness and gratitude to these people for their kindness, but I'm glad I don't live in a place controlled by the triads.
[/end of story]
So this is a long way to say that life under the sway of powerful criminal element does not have to be all gloom and destruction. In fact, it is in the criminal elements' best interest to maintain safe neighborhoods and encourage free enterprise and commerce, so there is more for them to take a cut of. Just remember, however, that once under the influence, you have to remain under the influence. I could see this playng out as a nice subtle and dramatic/tragic mission thread associated with the family that can never escape (or can they?)

Cool story, and yes, that is the kind of situation I meant. Here is a brief bit of info, an unusually enlightening WatchMojo clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-v9OPU2Xj0&t=1m39s
The Japanese Yakuza have a similar situation, perhaps even more insidious: http://www.tokyoreporter.com/2011/11/21/japanese-television-stations-also-rife-with-yakuza-ties/
http://www.tokyoreporter.com/2012/03/07/how-to-spot-a-yakuza-front-company/
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/11/27/japan-s-mega-banks-have-mega-yakuza-trouble.html

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

The Jade Men is fine for Christs sake. I'm sure there will be plenty of female badassery to contend with in the city. There's a line of ridiculousness in being too PC or SJW and I feel like some of you are about to cross it.

As a brain, I have to say I feel there should be some internationally recognized law against a fan of superheroes with a Flash-themed profile on a superhero MMO forum using the term Social Justice Warrior as an insult. What is a superhero if not a warrior of social justice? Devs, plz confirm, okay thanks.

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Progressive: Social Justice

Progressive: Social Justice Warrior (SJW):: Liberal: "lib"

Get what I mean? But yeah, lets plug this rabbit hole, eh? :p

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Gluke
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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Progressive: Social Justice Warrior (SJW):: Liberal: "lib"
Get what I mean? But yeah, lets plug this rabbit hole, eh? :p

Yes, I know. I am a 'progressive' liberal, and proud of it, I take SJW as a compliment, given the context. But yeah, before this thread turns into the Age of Conan chatbox (which is like a window into the last layer of Hell) let's keep it on-topic.
Did we hear about the top chosen characters in the list, the PIT agency?

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PIT? Rokay, Ruke. Re've rot

PIT? Rokay, Ruke. Re've rot it on re meru.

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Social Justice Warrior is not

Social Justice Warrior is not a compliment. It means you are an extremist who treats Social Justice like an Us vs. Them conflict where the "Oppressor" group is evil and you're the good guy who can do no wrong even if you're acting like an asshole. It means an arm chair warrior who thinks complaining on the internet without actually getting off your ass and doing something about the injustices in the world is actually solving them. It means you're someone who gets offended at small things that may be tangibly connected to whatever issue you claim to fight for, but that won't really matter in the long run. It means you're someone who tilts at windmills. That's what a Social Justice Warrior is. Social Justice Warrior is supposed to be ironic.

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TroublesomeKnight wrote:
TroublesomeKnight wrote:

Social Justice Warrior is not a compliment. It means you are an extremist who treats Social Justice like an Us vs. Them conflict where the "Oppressor" group is evil and you're the good guy who can do no wrong even if you're acting like an asshole. It means an arm chair warrior who thinks complaining on the internet without actually getting off your ass and doing something about the injustices in the world is actually solving them. It means you're someone who gets offended at small things that may be tangibly connected to whatever issue you claim to fight for, but that won't really matter in the long run. It means you're someone who tilts at windmills. That's what a Social Justice Warrior is. Social Justice Warrior is supposed to be ironic.

Yeah, I know all that, but in the *context* of each occasion I've been called that, which has only ever been online, typically on YouTube or IMDB message boards, it's been by a xenophobic, homophobic fool of one kind or another, and they've usually also called me a "lib", an "elitist", a "commie" and worse. Calling someone "SJW" indicates, far as I understand, that you assume they don't mean a word they say or care about whatever issue, from transgender rights to Barack Obama's citizenship to the easter bunny, and they're just pretending to care in order to be hip or something ("hipster" and "beta"(male) usually follow "elitist" in the litany of rigthwing keyboard-rage ;)) In the context of most unreasonably sudden and vehement online arguments, they're all meaningless buzzwords, used because the author cannot think of anything more articulate, original or mature, IMO.

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I guess that's a good point.

I guess that's a good point. XD; There are people who do miss use the term. Sorry. I still do think that complaining about the name "Jade Men" is pretty border-line SJW-y though, because it's just a name and all.

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Well, since I was the one who

Well, since I was the one who first brought it up, I'd like to say that, while I may be reflexively sensitive to language that might offend, it's out of sheer self-protection! I'm perfectly fine with bad-ass green women in the 'Jade Men'.

It's just that I'm a linguist and an etymologist and hearing-impaired, so it's important to me to use language that says exactly what I mean. Sometimes, PC-people and SJWs misinterpret what I say and try to beat me up with it, so I try to be Very Accurate, to avoid trouble.

Be Well!
Fireheart