Announcements

See our latest update! Interview with Red Warlock

Get the latest Patch now! The MacOS Client Launcher is Now available in the store! If you've already donated $50 or more, you'll find the Mac Launcher on your rewards page. https://store.missingworldsmedia.com/

Join the conversation on Discord: https://discord.gg/w6Tpkp2

Discuss: Spotlight on Downtown

93 posts / 0 new
Last post
Red Warlock
Red Warlock's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 51 min ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 22:09
Discuss: Spotlight on Downtown

Read the original update here: https://cityoftitans.com/content/spotlight-downtown

Feel free to comment on the update below.

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 14 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Am I a bad person for wanting

Am I a bad person for wanting to look PAST the wonderful structures at the sky beyond them?


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
avelworldcreator
avelworldcreator's picture
Offline
Last seen: 23 hours 35 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 12:19
Actually you flatter me. :)

Actually you flatter me. :) And the sky dome is HUGE and has features we have yet to fully explore.

-----------

Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder... and then some.

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
Did I see likenesses of the

Did I see likenesses of the Burj Khalifa, the London Cigar, and New York's Flatiron building in the update?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
warcabbit
warcabbit's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 day ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/06/2012 - 17:39
We had requests for moguls

We had requests for moguls that resemble some of the world's landmarks, and much like DC has the Statue of Justice, https://batmantheanimatedseries.fandom.com/wiki/Statue_of_Justice we have buildings that are not any of those famous landmarks, but might happen to look like them. Which means, yes, tall buildings to dangle people off of, etc.
I want to make this clear, the buildings don't do much other than somewhat resemble any more famous ones, being dissimilar in number of floors, window styles, etc, they're not just "we bought them from a 3D model vendor" duplicates.

Project Lead

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 25 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Did I see likenesses of the Burj Khalifa, the London Cigar, and New York's Flatiron building in the update?

warcabbit wrote:

We had requests for moguls that resemble some of the world's landmarks, and much like DC has the Statue of Justice, https://batmantheanimatedseries.fandom.com/wiki/Statue_of_Justice we have buildings that are not any of those famous landmarks, but might happen to look like them. Which means, yes, tall buildings to dangle people off of, etc.
I want to make this clear, the buildings don't do much other than somewhat resemble any more famous ones, being dissimilar in number of floors, window styles, etc, they're not just "we bought them from a 3D model vendor" duplicates.

It turns out one of those Mogul buildings that "vaguely resemble the Burj Khalifa but is not identical to it to for the purposes of making sure MWW doesn't get into any legal trouble from any possible real life IP holders" is mine. I always assumed it was going to have to be "stylized" for the purposes of this game so I was never a stickler for it looking 100% identical to the real life building.

I personally saw the building back in 2006 when it was roughly half-built. Even at that point I thought it was impressive so that's more-or-less what motivated my choice to use it as a model for a Mogul. It's called Skyspire in the game and I was pleased to be able to work with Red Warlock to put some finishing touches to it. I generally think all the Moguls I've seen so far have been done fairly well, including mine.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 53 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Did I see likenesses of the Burj Khalifa, the London Cigar, and New York's Flatiron building in the update?

I seem to recall at least a half-dozen Mogul buildings, back in the day, described as 'like the Burj Khalifa'. It's an impressive structure.
If I were to propose a Mogul building, I might be tempted to suggest a 'giant shiny donut', just for the fun of it. Perhaps as an HQ for some Space-X-like company.
Or, a Library of Alexandria, if there wasn't already one.

Be Well!
Fireheart

warcabbit
warcabbit's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 day ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/06/2012 - 17:39
There's already one, you've

There's already one, you've seen the outside, and it's been in Hijinx, too.

Project Lead

warcabbit
warcabbit's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 day ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/06/2012 - 17:39
Ok, I'll say it. Any

Ok, I'll say it. Any resemblance to a London landmark is completely coincidental. And possibly Freudian.
Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar...

And as the treachery of images plays fools to us all, this is not a cigar.

Project Lead

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 25 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Fireheart][quote=Huckleberry
Fireheart wrote:

I seem to recall at least a half-dozen Mogul buildings, back in the day, described as 'like the Burj Khalifa'. It's an impressive structure.

Yeah I've heard that as well but it turns out there are only two in the game now. The Devs decided to place them Downtown next to each other as "twin towers" with different color schemes. One is generally "darker" and the other "lighter" in color. I suppose they indirectly represent a sort of building version of the "yin and yang" principle which is fine with me.

My Skyspire is the "darker" tower - like that was going to be a real surprise to anyone. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Cyclops
Cyclops's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 3 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/10/2015 - 17:24
Looks at one photo...I see

Looks at one photo...I see the first Weeping Angel!

Hope
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 21 hours ago
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 10:10
Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

Looks at one photo...I see the first Weeping Angel!

Ooh. That's a great name.

Hi. I'm Hope.

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 14 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Hope wrote:
Hope wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

Looks at one photo...I see the first Weeping Angel!

Ooh. That's a great name.

Uh ... the Weeping Angels are a Doctor Who monster ...?


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Hope
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 21 hours ago
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 10:10
Huh. Had no idea.

Huh. Had no idea.

Never really caught the Doctor Who bug. Recall watching in the late 70s on a 10 inch black and white but reception was so spotty for our 3 channels it was kind of hit and miss. Always meant try again but never really have.

Great name nonetheless.

Hi. I'm Hope.

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
Even before Doctor Who,

Even before Doctor Who, Weeping Angels were a thing, found almost exclusively at cemeteries. That's how Doctor Who was able to use the common sight of angels with their hands over their faces to create perhaps one of the scariest monsters in all cinema.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 14 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
For a proper context on

For a proper context on exactly WHY the Weeping Angels are so terrifying a monster ... well, let's just leave it to The Doctor to explain ...

And if you're not convinced that the idea of statues that move when you're not looking at them (DON'T BLINK!) can be that terrifying ... well ... let's just ask a 5 year old child what they think ...


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 25 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Redlynne wrote:And if you're
Redlynne wrote:

And if you're not convinced that the idea of statues that move when you're not looking at them (DON'T BLINK!) can be that terrifying ... well ... let's just ask a 5 year old child what they think ...

Those people who "cosplay" as statues or mannequins can be pretty amazing if they're good at it. It's one thing to dress up like any random character but it's another to manage to stand still for such long periods of time.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
I wonder if MWM could

I wonder if MWM could actually get away with putting quantum locked statues in the game like that or if it would be covered under Intellectual Property rights? It would make for an interesting villain. especially for group content when everyone has to coordinate which way they're looking.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 14 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I wonder if MWM could actually get away with putting quantum locked statues in the game like that

Pretty sure the capability to do so (at a game mechanical level) exists.
Movement (as in going from here to there) would be best handled by a "silent teleport" that has no animation or visual/sound FX, which is only permitted to happen when the NPC(s) are unobserved (meaning, not within Perception Range of any PCs or other NPCs).
The Perception Range check ought to be a relatively trivial thing to program.
Not having an animation as well as not having any visual or sound FX for a "silent teleport" ought to be Beyond Trivial™ to deal with at the game engine level.
Only limitation is that the "silent teleport" can only happen when outside Perception Range, and can only go to places that are ALSO outside of Perception Range ... that way they "move" without anyone ever "seeing" them move. That might be "tricky" to program, but with a database of Teleport coordinates to choose from (so specific preset locations) it's just a matter of filtering destinations to teleport to that are currently NOT being observed by any PCs or NPCs (and if they all are, then no "silent teleport" occurs).

Doesn't even have to be a Villain group per se ... could simply be a background element adding Creep Factor to a place that falls within the territory claimed by the Weird Sisters.
So not "hostile" ... but definitely SPOOKY once you recognize what's happening.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Pretty sure the capability to do so (at a game mechanical level) exists.
Movement (as in going from here to there) would be best handled by a "silent teleport" that has no animation or visual/sound FX, which is only permitted to happen when the NPC(s) are unobserved (meaning, not within Perception Range of any PCs or other NPCs).
The Perception Range check ought to be a relatively trivial thing to program.
Not having an animation as well as not having any visual or sound FX for a "silent teleport" ought to be Beyond Trivial™ to deal with at the game engine level.
Only limitation is that the "silent teleport" can only happen when outside Perception Range, and can only go to places that are ALSO outside of Perception Range ... that way they "move" without anyone ever "seeing" them move. That might be "tricky" to program, but with a database of Teleport coordinates to choose from (so specific preset locations) it's just a matter of filtering destinations to teleport to that are currently NOT being observed by any PCs or NPCs (and if they all are, then no "silent teleport" occurs).

Actually, I think using a teleport would make things MORE difficult. Every character and mob has a set of coordinates in the game, I'm assuming. Give the statues some set movement speed and the game can figure out whether they are ever detected, and when they are they become graphically rendered and immobilized. This way, they don't accidentally 'teleport' across a field of vision that would have locked them. I think it might even be cooler if characters who are very very far away would not trigger the perception lock and be able to see the statues creeping up on players. That might have a spook factor all its own.

Redlynne wrote:

Doesn't even have to be a Villain group per se ... could simply be a background element adding Creep Factor to a place that falls within the territory claimed by the Weird Sisters.
So not "hostile" ... but definitely SPOOKY once you recognize what's happening.

Good point. There are a lot of uses for this.

-A special room in an instance. You have to get past the statues to continue. If any of them touch you, you are instantly teleported to the start of the instance.
-Atmosphere for a deranged carnival in which the animatronic entertainers 'play dead' when being observed
-An urban legend of a "weeping angel" in a cemetery that is always in a different location whenever anyone sees it. This would be a nice harmless homage to Dr. Who that I think would be very well received.
-and the reverse could be true as well: Put in a ghostly specter that stalks nearby characters but disappears when someone within a certain range sees it. If it touches you (even if invisible?), you suffer a control effect. How spooky would that be? How cool would that be as a mission element?
- and so many more...

Sorry for hijacking this thread. We can take it elsewhere if you'd like.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Cinnder
Cinnder's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 51 min ago
Gunterkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
Looks like the city is really

Looks like the city is really shaping up. That last shot of sunrise looks remarkably like the view of Manhattan approaching on the Staten Island ferry. Well done!

Spurn all ye kindle.

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 14 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Actually, I think using a teleport would make things MORE difficult. Every character and mob has a set of coordinates in the game, I'm assuming. Give the statues some set movement speed and the game can figure out whether they are ever detected, and when they are they become graphically rendered and immobilized. This way, they don't accidentally 'teleport' across a field of vision that would have locked them. I think it might even be cooler if characters who are very very far away would not trigger the perception lock and be able to see the statues creeping up on players. That might have a spook factor all its own.

Sorry, Huckleberry ... but you've got it completely bass ackwards.

  1. Move from preset Coordinates A to preset Coordinates B.
  2. Move INSTANTLY.
  3. Move without worrying about the terrain pathing between Coordinates A and B.

No matter how you slice it, that's a TELEPORT.

If you're using a "move across terrain" power to get there (like superspeed or superjump or whatever), you might be able to move from A to B ... but the time it takes to do so is not INSTANT (because you're "moving" along the path to get from A to B), so you fail point 2.
Additionally, all movement types EXCEPT TELEPORT have to respect (and move around) World Geometry, while Teleport simply "skips past" World Geometry as if it weren't there ... so if you're not using a "silent teleport" to move the Statue(s) then you also fail point 3.

And the reason why you have to do all of this INSTANTLY in order to make it work is that if it takes time to move from point A to B, it's completely possible (and will undoubtedly happen at some point!) that a PC scanning the area will "catch" a Statue in the process of moving from A to B (since all movement methods other than Teleport take longer than zero time) creating a problem.

The premise of the entire idea is that the statues move while no one is watching ... but if you create an elapsed time requirement to move from point A to point B, then you create the inevitable opportunity for the statues to be Caught In The Act Of Moving (because, timing) because, as a developer, you did something obviously dumb and stupid that undermined the very effect you were trying to produce.

So ... how do you absolutely ensure, under ALL POSSIBLE EDGE CASES, that there is NO OPPORTUNITY for a statue to be caught in the act of moving from place to place?
Simple.

  1. Move from preset Coordinates A (while unobserved) to preset Coordinates B (also unobserved).
  2. Move INSTANTLY.
  3. Move without worrying about the terrain pathing between Coordinates A and B.

No matter how you slice it, that's a TELEPORT.

So if this feels a bit "sharp" as a reply, Huckleberry ... please understand that you basically advocated for the functional equivalent of making a balloon out of lead.
Lead balloons don't work all that well ... as balloons (at least, not if you want them to float).
And I'm honestly a slight bit miffed that I had to explain this (at all) to you. I was under the impression it should have been obvious (and implicitly understood) from the start.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 14 hours 45 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
Well, if we are only looking

Well, if we are only looking at movement and not any states (such as a combat state), the same could be achieved with spawning and respawning at defined locations with simple proximity detection of other actors (such as player characters). They would probably be the simplest way of handling it.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

The premise of the entire idea is that the statues move while no one is watching ... but if you create an elapsed time requirement to move from point A to point B, then you create the inevitable opportunity for the statues to be Caught In The Act Of Moving (because, timing)...

Exactly. That's the whole point. If the statues can teleport then no one would EVER see them. The point is for THE PLAYERS to adjust their gameplay so they are constantly looking out for and preventing the statues from sneaking up on them. And yes, the statues SHOULD obey pathing requirements and obstructions. If you cause the statues to teleport, then you circumvent the entire experience. Can you imagine if the players are watching the only corridor through which the statues can approach and all of a sudden one appears behind them? That would defeat the entire idea of guarding the approach and not blinking.

Quote:

And I'm honestly a slight bit miffed that I had to explain this (at all) to you. I was under the impression it should have been obvious (and implicitly understood) from the start.

As am I. Since your mental model and my mental model of what the statues are and how they work are apparently incongruous. It is a shame you had to take such an offensive stance instead of attempting to understand or consider a different opinion.

Tannim222 wrote:

Well, if we are only looking at movement and not any states (such as a combat state), the same could be achieved with spawning and respawning at defined locations with simple proximity detection of other actors (such as player characters). They would probably be the simplest way of handling it.

As long as it feels like they are following the characters, I'm all for adopting the simplest and easiest method to implement it.

Edit: I can actually imagine a mini-game in which the player characters themselves are cursed with quantum lock and must get from point A to point B or take out opponent X without being detected. Every time they are seen, they freeze and the opponents run away or something. That could be fun. You obviously can't have the opponents stick around, staring at the characters to keep them frozen. That would make for a poor gameplay experience.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 14 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Exactly. That's the whole point. If the statues can teleport then no one would EVER see them.

The statues only change position when they are not being observed.
You're trying to create a situation in which the statues can be "caught in the act" of moving.

Huckleberry wrote:

Can you imagine if the players are watching the only corridor through which the statues can approach and all of a sudden one appears behind them? That would defeat the entire idea of guarding the approach and not blinking.

If you fail to observe a location, then that's where the statue can suddenly be, without warning (SURPRISE!).
If you're angling for a "jump scare" (as a developer/mission writer) then that certainly ought to work.
After all, playing the game of "hey, where did that statue that was just here go?" can create its own sense of anxiety and creeping dread.

Huckleberry wrote:

Since your mental model and my mental model of what the statues are and how they work are apparently incongruous.

Quite incongruous ... to the point of being game mechanically incompatible.

Tannim222 wrote:

Well, if we are only looking at movement and not any states (such as a combat state), the same could be achieved with spawning and respawning at defined locations with simple proximity detection of other actors (such as player characters). They would probably be the simplest way of handling it.

Despawning and respawning at new location(s) still functionally amounts to a Teleport, you're just using alternate means to achieve the same effect.
A potential hazard with a despawn/respawn movement scheme is that "continuity of identity" for particular statues might not be maintained. Kind of depends on how things are programmed on the back end.

Huckleberry wrote:

Edit: I can actually imagine a mini-game in which the player characters themselves are cursed with quantum lock and must get from point A to point B or take out opponent X without being detected. Every time they are seen, they freeze and the opponents run away or something. That could be fun. You obviously can't have the opponents stick around, staring at the characters to keep them frozen. That would make for a poor gameplay experience.

At that point, you're turning it into a kind of "red light/green light" game experience just like children play on the playground.
However, at this point you're trying to blend that with a stealth/camouflage approach, such that the PCs are penalized for being noticed/perceived.
Honestly, I figure that the "approach by stealth" mission requirement ought to suffice all on its own without complicating things further.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
Redlynne][quote=Huckleberry
Redlynne wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Exactly. That's the whole point. If the statues can teleport then no one would EVER see them.

The statues only change position when they are not being observed.
You're trying to create a situation in which the statues can be "caught in the act" of moving.

Exactly. That's how the statues work. What about that don't you agree?

Redlynne wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Can you imagine if the players are watching the only corridor through which the statues can approach and all of a sudden one appears behind them? That would defeat the entire idea of guarding the approach and not blinking.

If you fail to observe a location, then that's where the statue can suddenly be, without warning (SURPRISE!).

No that's not how they work.

Redlynne wrote:

If you're angling for a "jump scare" (as a developer/mission writer) then that certainly ought to work.
After all, playing the game of "hey, where did that statue that was just here go?" can create its own sense of anxiety and creeping dread.

True.

If that's the mechanic you want, you have all the right to want that mechanic. But that mechanic is not in keeping with how the weeping angels from Doctor Who actually work. The authentic mechanic is that the angels actually have to move from point A to point B. And if at any time they are observed during that travel that's where they turn to stone until they are no longer observed. Period. Now I'm the one who is having a hard time trying to understand how you view them. Just watch the episodes "Time of Angels" and "Flesh and Stone" to see how the angels hunt down and chase people and how they are locked when the door is opened, etc., etc.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 14 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Now I'm the one who is having a hard time trying to understand how you view them. Just watch the episodes "Time of Angels" and "Flesh and Stone" to see how the angels hunt down and chase people and how they are locked when the door is opened, etc., etc.

You're trying to use them as an NPC that can (and will) melee attack.
I'm simply trying to do a "hold on..." Creepy Factor that is meant to be nothing more than disturbing.

You're trying to create a "monster" that's an exact replica of what is seen in Doctor Who.
I'm trying to create a background environment element that at a minimum puts people on edge (if they notice) and/or produces a jump scare (when they can't help but notice).


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Renkage
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 11 hours ago
Joined: 10/07/2014 - 01:53
I am imagining myself flying

I am imagining myself flying at high speeds through the 'S' sign on the Simpson building. Really, any building with fun little games to play like that are a must. Managing to fly through the half constructed building without hitting any of the beams, tight corridors with various obstacles to dash around with super speed, decorations sticking out of buildings to hop onto as to further increase your height with super jumping. Etc.

The city should feel like a playground and the moguls the monkey bars.

Unarmed combat best combat. Every media
Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 14 hours 45 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Despawning and respawning at new location(s) still functionally amounts to a Teleport, you're just using alternate means to achieve the same effect.
A potential hazard with a despawn/respawn movement scheme is that "continuity of identity" for particular statues might not be maintained. Kind of depends on how things are programmed on the back end.

It may appear to be functionally a teleport. It technically and functionally (as in what function are happening) are very different. And much easier to set up.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 14 hours 45 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Despawning and respawning at new location(s) still functionally amounts to a Teleport, you're just using alternate means to achieve the same effect.
A potential hazard with a despawn/respawn movement scheme is that "continuity of identity" for particular statues might not be maintained. Kind of depends on how things are programmed on the back end.

It may appear to be functionally a teleport. It technically and functionally (as in what function are happening) are very different. And much easier to set up.

Though if so we’re to fully design an encounter where the pawns could move and appear to follow a target, disappear, and had to handle combat states, using our mechanics…

I’d give the pawns an extremely high level of Stealth that was set up with a Perception check tag and a very short delay on triggering stealth again (so you can catch a glimpse).


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
Dark Cleric
Dark Cleric's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 2 min ago
Joined: 05/14/2018 - 12:26
So the picture "Monument

So the picture "Monument Plaza mogul at the center with twin Atlas statues at the top", I am just really confused by that area. The large ramp isn't a road for vehicles, at least it isn't connect to the road in front of it so I'm assuming is a pedestrian ramp, but it is absolutely massive when compared to the buildings next to it and the size a player would be compared to those buildings. And there is no road or sidewalk leading to those buildings? It just looks like a very odd area.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

So the picture "Monument Plaza mogul at the center with twin Atlas statues at the top", I am just really confused by that area. The large ramp isn't a road for vehicles, at least it isn't connect to the road in front of it so I'm assuming is a pedestrian ramp, but it is absolutely massive when compared to the buildings next to it and the size a player would be compared to those buildings. And there is no road or sidewalk leading to those buildings? It just looks like a very odd area.

Good observation. I hadn't noticed the scale of it myself until you mentioned it. It looks to be a wide staircase, but even so it is not right. In a real city not designed to be the scene of an MMORPG, one would expect A zig-zag ramp for wheelchair accessibility, or preferably an elevator since that elevation change is about 100'. That elevation change is about the same as the total height of El Castillo pyramid at Chichen Itza:

Since this is an MMORPG city, however, there are bound to be idiosyncrasies like this. I would hope that some time between now and publication that the devs make an attempt to compromise and perhaps make it less outlandish.


Redlynne wrote:

You're trying to create a "monster" that's an exact replica of what is seen in Doctor Who.
I'm trying to create a background environment element that at a minimum puts people on edge (if they notice) and/or produces a jump scare (when they can't help but notice).

Good, I'm glad we got that settled.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 25 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Huckleberry][quote=Dark
Huckleberry wrote:

Since this is an MMORPG city, however, there are bound to be idiosyncrasies like this. I would hope that some time between now and publication that the devs make an attempt to compromise and perhaps make it less outlandish.

Yeah I didn't quite notice the scale of those stairs either. Something like that would likely be considered an extreme public hazard to "normal" citizens.

Maybe the Devs could decide to re-visit those stairs by making it a pedestrian version of Lombard Street in San Fransisco:

With the sheer area involved it could almost be made into a "steep-angled" public park.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Red Warlock
Red Warlock's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 51 min ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 22:09
It's a large staircase - work

It's a large staircase - work is still being done on the plaza area there...

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
The scale of all the

The scale of all the buildings in that image are wonky. Just compare the height of a single story of Prometheus Plaza to the height of a single story of any of the buildings that are closer to the camera.

Red Warlock wrote:

It's a large staircase - work is still being done on the plaza area there...

I guess we'll see


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 14 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Maybe the Devs could decide to re-visit those stairs by making it a pedestrian version of Lombard Street in San Fransisco:

With the sheer area involved it could almost be made into a "steep-angled" public park.

Steep angled water slide park.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Red Warlock
Red Warlock's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 51 min ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 22:09
So I wanted to follow-up on
Dark Cleric wrote:

So the picture "Monument Plaza mogul at the center with twin Atlas statues at the top", I am just really confused by that area. The large ramp isn't a road for vehicles, at least it isn't connect to the road in front of it so I'm assuming is a pedestrian ramp, but it is absolutely massive when compared to the buildings next to it and the size a player would be compared to those buildings. And there is no road or sidewalk leading to those buildings? It just looks like a very odd area.

So I wanted to follow-up on the discussion here on this Monument Plaza area. I am going to share some pictures that show what's there now and I'll mention what is "Placeholder" and what we are thinking of adding.

First, Titan City has a lot of twisty, turning labyrinth roads to get lost in, but the lead-up to this plaza is one of the places where you can see the skyscraper and a straight line to it from far away. I'm picturing this will be a fun spot to super speed your way into Downtown starting from far-off in Alexandria:

As you pass the freeway, you can see that there are roadways in different directions heading into Old Bradford to the left, into Downtown up to the right, and the grand staircase for pedestrians heading directly into Downtown. Please ignore the ground area around the staircase as these buildings are temporary filler buildings. The roads and sidewalks are also unfinished, but show the layout:

Here's a picture close to the staircase.

The staircase itself is pretty simple right now and I'm considering elements to add to it, safety railing for sure, but maybe it could be done up with statues and ornaments like this staircase in Marseille:

At the top of the staircase is a plaza that is still in development. It needs some additional features, but here is some of what's been placed there now (including an elevator...):

So, the idea is for this to be a big, open public entryway into Downtown for pedestrians, maybe a nice area for surprise battles, and a fun place to run up the wall of a skyscraper... The staircase is steep, big and simple, but kind of like some grand staircases in Europe, maybe just a little super-sized. I personally like the daunting staircase because I feel like it adds to the feeling of height leading up to the skyscrapers, almost like a modern-day version of great pyramid steps.

The area needs some more work, but let me know if after seeing the planning for this plaza it if you think it makes sense, or if you have suggestions for improvements.

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 25 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Thanks for showing more pics

Thanks for showing more pics and sharing your ideas about this area. I don't necessarily hate the idea of a huge, pyramid style staircase being in the game but I'm just thinking in terms of what city-planners of a modern 21st century city would do. I just think the current steeply monolithic stairway without side-rails would be a safety disaster for average, non-powered citizens.

I think if you just added a few more "realistic" details to this (like your Marseilles stairway example with several plateaus and side railings) it would make this all seem more sensible.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
If those buildings on either

If those buildings on either of the stairway are not-to-scale fillers, that changes my estimation of its elevation to about 50 feet, which is half of what I thought it was when I used them to gauge it.

I like the multiple landings on the stairs in Versailles. If you do that with yours and put a bench on each side on each landing and you have a set of stairs most people could conquer. In fact, that reminds me of another famous set of stairs, those at the Philadelphia Museum of Art. (also known as The Rocky Stairs):

But while multiple landings is more realistic, I'm not sure they would be as fun as a single uninterrupted flight of stairs from a fast-travel point of view. On the other hand multiple flights with multiple landings might be more enjoyable for the wooaaooaaooaaooaa feel of it when taken at superspeed.

When one considers safety railings, I think it is mandatory that they look and feel as solid and substantial as the stairs themselves, as if it were all a single integrated whole. Marseilles does it with multiple plinths for statuary and integrated stone railing, while Philly does it with a broad knee-high spacer and then tiered fountains. In both cases it looks like it was part of the design and not an afterthought. (Not that you wouldn't have done something just as well integrated, but you asked for input...). I also notice that the railings form a narrower chokepoint at the top of the stairs in Marseilles, while in Philly the top and bottom of the stairs remain the same width. I recommend keeping yours the same width at the top as at the bottom also, or at least with a constant and smooth gradiant. No one wants to superspeed up a flight of stairs only to clip a corner at the top.

One other thing the grand staircase will be good for is a place for group photos, so I recommend staying away from putting any obstructions in the run that could block someone from a picture.

Edit: BTW, The grass and the roadways in your long distance shot look realistic. I think we take it for granted when something looks "as it should" and only comment when it doesn't. In this case I thought you should know that it does look excellent.

Edit #2: You know, the fact that the staircase is not centered on the road, or vice versa, is really distracting. I'm sure it will trigger the OCD of many a player. From a city planning and design standpoint, I'd expect a more aligned approach. Just look at that picture from Marseilles to see that the road and the stair are in perfect alignment.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Red Warlock
Red Warlock's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 51 min ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 22:09
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

BTW, The grass and the roadways in your long distance shot look realistic. I think we take it for granted when something looks "as it should" and only comment when it doesn't. In this case I thought you should know that it does look excellent.

Thank you - the streets and landscaping there are in Alexandria where we have done all the finishing to make it look 'as it should', so glad you feel that way looking from that shot. As you look at that picture heading into Downtown you will see there is less landscaping and the roads look not as authentic. We will be doing finishing work on Downtown like we did in Alexandria to make sure every corner looks right. And I'll take in people's ideas here for the stairs too - certainly it needs some finishing. I'll play around with simple things, maybe some of the more extravagant ideas (Marseille stairs etc.) and see what looks right when I play around with it. It's very helpful to hear people's thoughts on what needs 'something' because this is the time when we can make those adjustments...

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

Kiyori Anoyui
Kiyori Anoyui's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 5 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/10/2013 - 11:03
If it's larger than entire

If it's larger than entire buildings, you could perhaps block out the middle (keep the stairs going on the sides. But have a park like area with a carousel, benches, grass, trees, and water fountains/features with a local artist mural along the back wall, maybe a Banksy style spray paint of the local heroes

The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One

Avatar by lilshironeko

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 14 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Red Warlock wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:

No bike lanes?
Itty bitty 4 inch wide road shoulders?

Red Warlock wrote:

Here's a picture close to the staircase.

The staircase itself is pretty simple right now and I'm considering elements to add to it

Have you considered using Forced Perspective with the staircase?

wikipedia wrote:


The Potemkin Stairs in Odessa extend for 142 metres (466 ft), but give the illusion of greater depth since the stairs are wider at the bottom than at the top.

Rather than making the stairs rectangular in shape, you could instead make them trapezoidal so they are narrower at the top and wider at the bottom, creating an optical illusion of Forced Perspective when the stairs are viewed at ground level by pedestrians (and superspeeders) both for ascent and for descent. Note that with such a design in mind, you will almost certainly need to lengthen the "footprint" of the staris , and that much like with the Potemkin Stairs illustrated above, it might be better to do 12 steps, then a flat landing before ascending another 12 steps to another landing (I counted the shadow lines of the lowest set of steps in the picture).


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:

No bike lanes?
Itty bitty 4 inch wide road shoulders?

Narrow shoulders are common on boulevards like that, and old New England boulevards like that were never built for bikes. Just check out Cambridge Street or Congress Street in Boston. I think it makes sense that a New England city would have some sort of bike accessibility project that puts bike paths across the city, just not necessarily on its narrow automobile thoroughfares. I think a really cool immersion factor for a city adapted for supers would be to have a speedster lane alongside bike lanes.

Edit: Even in Boston, however, University Neighborhoods are lousy with bike lanes, Just look at Commonwealth Avenue and Boston University Bridge where they come together and the efforts made to accommodate bicycles there. In light of this, I would expect Titan City have more car-alternate traffic features around Ephesus University.

One thing that is absent is the yellow line on the inside lane.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Foradain
Foradain's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 19 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/25/2013 - 21:06
Red Warlock wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:

Huckleberry wrote:

One thing that is absent is the yellow line on the inside lane.

Is that a MassDOT thing? Where would it be, along the divider? We don't have that in my area (other side of continent) so much (yellow line or divider, yes, but not often both), although I do appreciate the solid yellow endcaps on the dividers to make them more visible.

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
Foradain's Character Conclave
Millennium City Refugee.
Avatar courtesy of Satellite9

Red Warlock
Red Warlock's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 51 min ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 22:09
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

No bike lanes?
Itty bitty 4 inch wide road shoulders?

It's a good point. We actually have added bike rental shops to go by metro stations throughout Titan City and one of our artists made graphics for that bike shop logo, so bike ridership is definitely part of the city concept. We need to get a good bike lane print for streets... I haven't seen one in our roads packs but I'll look closely to find one. Worst case, we can make one at some point.

And great idea about forced perspective. I have heard about that in places like Disneyland where they use that on Main Street and other spots. Good concept for revising that staircase...

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

Red Warlock
Red Warlock's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 51 min ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 22:09
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

One thing that is absent is the yellow line on the inside lane.

When there is a middle curb like that, do some states still put a yellow line to not cross? I don't recall seeing that, but I haven't looked closely for it. I thought by having the curb that lets drivers know they aren't supposed to cross...

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

Red Warlock
Red Warlock's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 51 min ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 22:09
By the way, wall crawling

By the way, doesn't this set of skyscrapers along this plaza look like they would be fun for wall crawling?

And speaking of wall crawling, are there any features along the walls people like to have to hang out on for wall crawling? We've been thinking a lot about sky bridges, rooftop features and various things to add to sky areas for flying players to feel like the sky places are a living part of the game, not a sort of 'dead edge' of the playable environment. Any ideas for making the environment more interesting for wall crawlers?

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
Red Warlock wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

One thing that is absent is the yellow line on the inside lane.

When there is a middle curb like that, do some states still put a yellow line to not cross? I don't recall seeing that, but I haven't looked closely for it. I thought by having the curb that lets drivers know they aren't supposed to cross...

I don't know about all states. But in Massachusetts it is there. One need only look at the same same streets I mentioned earlier: Cambridge and Congress and any other divided road in Boston or any other city in Massachusetts like New Bedford (e.g. JFK Memorial Hwy) and Worcester (e.g. Francis J McGrath blvd). I even checked other cities in other states like Elmwood Ave in Providence, RI and Franklin St. in Portland, ME. They are all divided highways with a yellow line. Most importantly id was unable to find a divided road without a yellow line.

[Edit: I found this engineering drawing on the New York state DoT website: https://www.dot.ny.gov/main/business-center/engineering/cadd-info/drawings/standard-sheets-us-repository/685-01_050213e1_0.pdf that sets forth the requirements for edge lines. Interestingly, note 2. on that drawing states "IF THE CURB OFFSET IS LESS THAN 2'-0", NO EDGE LINE SHALL BE APPLIED ADJACENT TO CURBS UNLESS OTHERWISE SHOWN ON THE PLANS." So in your case, that might be your rationale for not having a yellow line, if you needed a rationale.]

I don't think it will be missed, honestly, if you never put a yellow line in. It's just something that should be there for accuracy sake.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 53 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Thanks for showing more pics and sharing your ideas about this area. I don't necessarily hate the idea of a huge, pyramid-style staircase being in the game but I'm just thinking in terms of what city planners of a modern 21st-century city would do. I just think the current steeply monolithic stairway without side-rails would be a safety disaster for average, non-powered citizens.

I think if you just added a few more "realistic" details to this (like your Marseilles stairway example with several plateaus and side railings) it would make this all seem more sensible.

Keep in mind that this is Not Actually a 'modern' city. Titan City has been there, for hundreds of years. Also, it's on the East Coast, so there was never room to sprawl. Granted, the Great Fire did make room for a lot of urban renewal.

I agree that the big concrete ladder seems a bit monolithic. Side rails, lamps, possibly plantings, would break it up a bit. Possibly some 'turn-outs' where those who aren't mountain-goats can sit and rest a bit?

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
Renkage wrote:
Renkage wrote:

I am imagining myself flying at high speeds through the 'S' sign on the Simpson building. Really, any building with fun little games to play like that are a must. Managing to fly through the half constructed building without hitting any of the beams, tight corridors with various obstacles to dash around with super speed, decorations sticking out of buildings to hop onto as to further increase your height with super jumping. Etc.

The city should feel like a playground and the moguls the monkey bars.

I agree. With the sky bridges and all the other little gems, I think this is going to be a fun city to travel through. I hope they keep putting in little things like that. I hope the designers are imagining they are making an aquascape for an aquarium that gives all us player fish nooks, crannies, ramps and all manner of crevices, arches and tunnels to explore.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 14 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Red Warlock wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

No bike lanes?
Itty bitty 4 inch wide road shoulders?

It's a good point. We actually have added bike rental shops to go by metro stations throughout Titan City and one of our artists made graphics for that bike shop logo, so bike ridership is definitely part of the city concept. We need to get a good bike lane print for streets... I haven't seen one in our roads packs but I'll look closely to find one. Worst case, we can make one at some point.

Part of the reason I say that is because even if this street is a part of the "old Titan City" street layout from around 100 years ago (unlikely, but work with me here) ... there has obviously be some kind of urban renewal that has happened during that past century with this particular street.

Looking at the details of the street itself ... the street is relatively well maintained (it's not a minefield of potholes), the sidewalks to either side are broad and laid with prefab rectangular blocks, rather than being poured concrete like you'd see with a lot of sidewalks. The streetlights look "modern" rather than being something harkening back to the era of gas lamp lighting (lit by gas lighters every night) made out of wrought iron. The street light(s) look spindly to the point of being (too) breakaway flimsy. The trees are set back from the road, while the street lights are barely 2 feet away from the curb, so the only straight line walking space is set pretty far back from the road behind the trees.

Here's a quick google search for street lights in Boston. Notice the size of the vertical pillar for the crosswalk lights (much wider and more firmly attached than the traffic light I'm seeing in Titan City) and the yellow line drawn at the inside lane next to the median.

Dunno what the deal is with those brownstones that have their back to the street, the sheer lack of windows makes me wonder what they must be like to live inside (no sunlight). Hopefully there's an access for them on the other side away from the street, otherwise you'll need to teleport to get into them.

With respect to this long straight street running into downtown though, here is what I would recommend.

  1. Start over.
  2. Widen the median and put the trees down the center of the street, rather than along the sidewalks on the sides.
  3. Widen the paved sides of the streets for bicycle/superspeeder lanes (the superspeeders just jump over the bikers so as to not hit them).
  4. Include an unpaved easement between curb and sidewalk where additional trees along the side of the road are planted. Extra bonus points for the trees to be shaped in such a way as to have their limbs and foliage hang over the street from the center median and the sides, "trimmed by traffic" under them.
  5. Have a straight line sidewalk set back from the road past the unpaved easement section.

Reference for the above can be easily seen in the Boston street image provided above.

Red Warlock wrote:

And great idea about forced perspective. I have heard about that in places like Disneyland where they use that on Main Street and other spots. Good concept for revising that staircase...

Disneyland tends to use forced perspective on Main Street, the Castle(s) and on the Matterhorn where they do optical illusion tricks such as varying the size of the brickwork (large and the base, smaller towards the top) so as to make buildings seem taller than they actually are. Since your eyes (and brain) are accustomed to seeing uniform brick sizes from top to bottom, by making the stone blocks actually smaller the higher up they are, the taller/farther away they look, making them seem more impressive than if a uniform block size were used from top to bottom.

Forced Perspective is one of those bits of optical trickery that can make things seem larger/longer than they actually are, you just need to be clever with your design process.

Red Warlock wrote:

By the way, doesn't this set of skyscrapers along this plaza look like they would be fun for wall crawling?

And speaking of wall crawling, are there any features along the walls people like to have to hang out on for wall crawling? We've been thinking a lot about sky bridges, rooftop features and various things to add to sky areas for flying players to feel like the sky places are a living part of the game, not a sort of 'dead edge' of the playable environment. Any ideas for making the environment more interesting for wall crawlers?

This is going to be a little tangential, but will come back around to your question of about wall crawling features soon enough (promise!).

In Paragon City and the Rogue Isles there were two maps where it was actually fun/challenging to go rooftop hopping using nothing more than Ninja Run+Sprint.
King's Row ... specifically the neighborhood of The Gish in the center of the zone with all the brick high rises.
Cap au Diable ... specifically the neighborhood of Haven between the ferry and the airport in the south of the zone.

It became something of a game to leap from rooftop to rooftop without falling down to street level, using nothing more than Ninja Run and Sprint.
It might not have been the "optimal" way to travel, but it was quite enjoyable to execute (especially when successful!).
However, if you did fall down to street level, it was a tremendous PAIN to try and find anywhere that you would be able to jump back up to rooftop level and resume Ninja Running across the rooftops. Not impossible, but definitely annoying.

The brick brownstone buildings in King's Row (and to a lesser extent in Cap au Diable) had projecting ledges that you could jump up and land on, but which required a sort of zig/zag diagonal ascent to jump upwards against the building wall face without falling back down to street level. So even without Superleap, you could "climb" buildings that had the OLD (from Outbreak onwards) brick buildings with windows, ledges and window air conditioning units so as to get up to their roof without needing to climb the stairs. It was a kind of Poor Man's Wall Climbing™ but it could be done. I even used it to climb up onto the roofs of some of the taller buildings in Outbreak (at Level 1) because the geometry permitted it. The geometry of the ledges allowed upward movement while giving a place to "land" on when falling downwards.

By the time Cryptic started making the Rogue Isles they realized that all that world geometry was "costing" them in performance and so they got rid of it. Instead of having "climbable" world geometry jutting out of buildings (increasing the polygon budget of buildings) they just made the buildings flat slab sided structures and did features like windows and window ledges as texture patterns on flat surfaces. It was almost impossible to "climb walls" in Mercy Island due to the lack of geometry features on the sides of buildings, UNLIKE the experience from the iconic brownstone brick buildings in Outbreak, Atlas Park and King's Row.

So as far as Wall Crawling is concerned, there's really a pair of interrelated questions that need to be asked.
Surfaces conducive to Wall Crawling by the actual power ... and surfaces conducive to being scaled using what amounts to Parkour.

The way that Ninja Leap worked for climbing buildings was really more like an emergent Parkour styled actively controlled by the Player kind of movement behavior. It might not have been intended, but the arrangement of features on buildings allowed it to happen. It wasn't "true" Wall Crawling, but it was close enough to get the job done. So when you ask about what kinds of buildings would be fun to use Wall Crawling on, there's two basic building styles to be thinking of ... sheer flat slab sided buildings (most likely a glass skyscraper type) ... and those with enough geometry on their surface to permit Parkour to achieve a Poor Man's Wall Crawling™ experience allowing you to climb up (by jumping up ledges, for example) through clever and skillful use of movement controls.

Two other things to keep in mind, which are best explained with images.

The point I'm wanting to make here is ... in some parts of the city, it's okay to have features be ... a little bit ... bent ... away from being perfectly maintained.

After all, not every take off or landing is a "soft" one ... in the City of Titans.
It's just one of those things where if you can do stuff with powers, it's really cool to have places in the shared world where "evidence" of use of those powers hasn't been erased yet.

For example, late in City of Heroes the Titan Weapons set was released, and one of the weapon skins you could have for it was the Railroad Pike, literally a railroad crossing signal ripped off its mounting.

And the first thing that came to mind when I saw that weapon revealed at the Player Summit was ... where in the world is there a railroad crossing that is missing one of its crossing signals?
Sadly, neither Paragon City nor the Rogue Isles had any railroad tracks anywhere, so there were no railroad crossing signals anywhere in the game world ... blue side, red side or even gold side ... so it was always an "in-world mystery" where the Railroad Pike was ... acquired from.
But if there had been a railroad crossing somewhere ... anywhere ... in the game world, even if it was decommissioned and out of use, simply having one of the railroad crossing signals missing and clearly ripped off its mounting (presumably by some form of super strength) would have provided the necessary in-world context for the sourcing of that particular Titan Weapon.

Something similar ought to be done here in Titan City, I'm thinking.

You can have "uniquely off kilter" bits of the city that "aren't quite right" because at some point previously someone used their powers there and a bit of the city got ... slightly mangled ... and it just hasn't been repaired/replaced yet.
Whether that's a railroad crossing signal that's been ripped from its moorings ... or a road light or traffic signal that got bent when something really heavy jumped off it (or landed on it) ... a radiating pattern of spider cracks in a sidewalk or a wall where a battle was fought (and impacts happened) ... there ought to be little easter eggs scattered around Titan City that show the place as being both "lived in" as well as being "fought in" where use of powers HAPPENS and the evidence of their use is there to see, if you know where to look.
Granted such "permanent" features of the game world ought to be more prevalent in the poorer, more crime infested areas of the city, due to having less city services budget allocated towards upkeep in those areas, but even then it's still possible to have "curiously imperfect" features even in more affluent areas of the city, implying that some sort of superpowered combat happened there relatively recently (even if there's no Event dedicated to demonstrating it for Players to watch).

I mean, even out of game in real life, we've all seen situations where a road sign that was there yesterday somehow got flattened by an impact with a car/truck since the last time we drove by there, so we know that sometime recently someone hit it with a vehicle. We didn't watch it happen when it occurred, but we can see the evidence of it for days/weeks afterwards while the city works on replacing the damaged infrastructure.

That kind of "slightly mangled" cityscape features can go a really long way towards creating a sense of "realistic lived in" immersion in the game world, I'm thinking.
For one thing, it strongly implies that there are "stories" of battles and defeats "written" all across the city, of which our PCs are merely a part, as opposed to being the absolute focus ... meaning there is MORE to the world than JUST US.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
Red Warlock wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:

And speaking of wall crawling, are there any features along the walls people like to have to hang out on for wall crawling? We've been thinking a lot about sky bridges, rooftop features and various things to add to sky areas for flying players to feel like the sky places are a living part of the game, not a sort of 'dead edge' of the playable environment. Any ideas for making the environment more interesting for wall crawlers?

I'm not sure any of us have any concept of what wall crawling will entail in CoT. Is it just going to be crawling around on all fours at a crawling pace? Will we be able to upgrade it into a full run on the surface of the wall just like we would be running on the ground, but on the wall? Will it include tethers or ziplines? The answers to these questions significantly affects how the environment should be tailored. For example, the Acrobatics skill in DCUO includes crawling as well as ziplining as well as running along a wall's surface. Here's an example of all that:
skip to about the 02:54 mark.

If CoT adopts relative up then that opens a whole new range of possibilities that take advantage of the different perspective available to them that no one else gets. I refer to seeing things sideways and upside down. So put hidden messages upside down and sideways in places only a wallcrawler would get it. Maybe using one of those scripts that say something right side up but completely something else upside down. It doesn't have to be as complicated as an ambigram

But imagine a row of light posts with oddly shaped signs on them. But when viewed all in a row and upside down, they spell something or look like something. Or some buildings with odd markings on their corners, but when you are sitting on the side of another building horizontal to gravity in just the right spot, those markings come together to spell something. This is not to say that any player can't just turn their head to one side to see it; but the way our minds work, a player who's view is already tilted 90 degrees will see it naturally. Or some discolorations in the ground, but when you are upside down under a bridge they form a word. Things like that.

An M.C. Escher area could really only ever be appreciated by wall crawlers:

In fact, putting staircases that are oriented sideways or upside down high up in the walls of places is one sure way to say: This entrance is for climbers only. You could even put a sign on the wall oriented normal to the wall itself.

One other thing that a wallcrawler and a parkour/acrobat can take advantage of that a speedster, flyer or teleporter would not are clotheslines, powerlines and other cables and ropes between things. Such features would enable climbers and acrobats a way to get from one building to another without a bulky eyesore like a skybridge.

I can imagine a statue of someone wearing a skirt. If a climber climbed up one of its legs to get under the skirt there would be an achievement, called "Upskirt" with the color text being: "You had to go there, didn't you. Pervert."


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 25 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Thanks for showing more pics and sharing your ideas about this area. I don't necessarily hate the idea of a huge, pyramid-style staircase being in the game but I'm just thinking in terms of what city planners of a modern 21st-century city would do. I just think the current steeply monolithic stairway without side-rails would be a safety disaster for average, non-powered citizens.

I think if you just added a few more "realistic" details to this (like your Marseilles stairway example with several plateaus and side railings) it would make this all seem more sensible.

Keep in mind that this is Not Actually a 'modern' city. Titan City has been there, for hundreds of years. Also, it's on the East Coast, so there was never room to sprawl. Granted, the Great Fire did make room for a lot of urban renewal.

Let's not be obtuse here. Titan City might have been around for a long time but it clearly would have to follow modern building and safety codes. Anything deemed "unsafe" by modern standards would have been addressed and corrected for the most part by now.

Fireheart wrote:

I agree that the big concrete ladder seems a bit monolithic. Side rails, lamps, possibly plantings, would break it up a bit. Possibly some 'turn-outs' where those who aren't mountain-goats can sit and rest a bit?

Responsible city authorities would not allow such a staircase of hundreds of steps without railings, plateaus, benches, handicap accessibility and other features for average "non-powered" citizens. Could you imagine the lawsuits the city would open themselves up to for allowing such a death-trap to exist? For example just think how dangerous such a thing would be during the winter covered in ice and snow?

Again I don't dislike what's currently there just for its own sake. I'm simply pointing out the obvious that such a thing would never be allowed to exist in a modern 21st-century city no matter how long the city's been around.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 53 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
I didn't actually think that

I didn't actually think that you had expected 'instant post-modern city', Lothic, and your point that modern sensibilities could have easily been imposed over time, as the city grew and developed, is well taken.

I keep looking at the unadorned original great death-slide and totalling up the number of imaginary Smashed Skaters in the hospital... Yes, they were all idiots who got what they deserved for thinking Physics didn't apply to them, but... Obviously intelligent city-designers would realize that such a structure would require Air Bags to protect the average non-invulnerable citizen. (Um, is that thing made of railroad ties?)
Anyway, safety features, and a design that accommodates non-super citizens, understanding that most citizens (9 of 10?) would be non-super... possibly some concrete barriers to keep Vehicles off the great death slide... I'd hope there was a hidden elevator for non-daredevils.

Be Well!
Fireheart

slagger
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 1 day ago
Joined: 05/22/2021 - 18:41
Red Warlock wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

One thing that is absent is the yellow line on the inside lane.

When there is a middle curb like that, do some states still put a yellow line to not cross? I don't recall seeing that, but I haven't looked closely for it. I thought by having the curb that lets drivers know they aren't supposed to cross...

i like a lot of the ideas and all, but i hope that this is all stuff you are going to add/fix after release. it has been 8 years. i know i can't speak for others, but i am fine with playing in that city while you polish things

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 14 hours 45 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
=Huckleberry wrote:
=Huckleberry wrote:

I'm not sure any of us have any concept of what wall crawling will entail in CoT. Is it just going to be crawling around on all fours at a crawling pace? Will we be able to upgrade it into a full run on the surface of the wall just like we would be running on the ground, but on the wall? Will it include tethers or ziplines? The answers to these questions significantly affects how the environment should be tailored. For example, the Acrobatics skill in DCUO includes crawling as well as ziplining as well as running along a wall's surface. Here's an example of all that:

Right now Wall Crawling just consists of crawling on a wall. We have to design the full set of movement.

Zip-lines or tethers for swinging are in the Swinging Set which was unlocked during our Kickstarter.

Our Acrobatics set is being designed it has our improved run speed, jump height, and is limited wall running is being considered.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
Red Warlock
Red Warlock's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 51 min ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 22:09
slagger wrote:
slagger wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

One thing that is absent is the yellow line on the inside lane.

When there is a middle curb like that, do some states still put a yellow line to not cross? I don't recall seeing that, but I haven't looked closely for it. I thought by having the curb that lets drivers know they aren't supposed to cross...

i like a lot of the ideas and all, but i hope that this is all stuff you are going to add/fix after release. it has been 8 years. i know i can't speak for others, but i am fine with playing in that city while you polish things

I definitely balance the request for something to be added with a consideration for how long the request would take. If I hear a lot of feedback about something needing adjustment (like several people mentioned the very prominent stairs need something), then I will look at a fix for that. And I’ll find a fix that won’t take too long, but will make the improvement. Some other requests mentioned might need to wait until after launch, and some requests just don’t make sense to me.

But point well taken - we want to get this game launched.

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

Kiyori Anoyui
Kiyori Anoyui's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 5 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/10/2013 - 11:03
Another idea that I think

Another idea that I think would work really well for that staircase: Is anyone familiar with the Duquesne Incline in Pittsburgh PA?

The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One

Avatar by lilshironeko

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

...

That's actually a pretty cool idea. I looked up other ideas like that and it's called a funicular, in case anyone is interested. The thing about funiculars is that they exist as pairs and are tied together with a cable, so they balance each other. This makes it easier on the lifting mechanisms as they only need to pull the difference in weight between the upcoming vehicle and the downgoing vehicle, which is just a few people at most, usually.

For Titan City, it wouldn't need to be an enclosed car like in the photo. It could just be a big platform that goes up and down that characters can jump on and off as it goes. A stairway along the side could still be used for speedsters, but most everyone else would take the lift. We could even give the funicular a cool name, open it up in the forums for suggestions.

I really like this idea.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 25 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

Another idea that I think would work really well for that staircase: Is anyone familiar with the Duquesne Incline in Pittsburgh PA?

I actually road on this incline back in the late 70's during a visit to Pittsburgh. As this pic shows it provided a fun view of the Pittsburgh skyline.

Just as a note to the Devs if they decide to use this idea: The cars run up and down this track very slowly. At best it only travels like maybe 2 or 3 MPH so I wouldn't have a CoT version run much faster than that.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

slagger
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 1 day ago
Joined: 05/22/2021 - 18:41
Red Warlock wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:
slagger wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

One thing that is absent is the yellow line on the inside lane.

When there is a middle curb like that, do some states still put a yellow line to not cross? I don't recall seeing that, but I haven't looked closely for it. I thought by having the curb that lets drivers know they aren't supposed to cross...

i like a lot of the ideas and all, but i hope that this is all stuff you are going to add/fix after release. it has been 8 years. i know i can't speak for others, but i am fine with playing in that city while you polish things

I definitely balance the request for something to be added with a consideration for how long the request would take. If I hear a lot of feedback about something needing adjustment (like several people mentioned the very prominent stairs need something), then I will look at a fix for that. And I’ll find a fix that won’t take too long, but will make the improvement. Some other requests mentioned might need to wait until after launch, and some requests just don’t make sense to me.

But point well taken - we want to get this game launched.

that is good to know.

what are the chances that this city can replace the island that we are using now?

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
slagger wrote:
slagger wrote:

what are the chances that this city can replace the island that we are using now?

Those chances are 100%.

The real question is WHEN will it replace it?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 25 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
slagger wrote:
slagger wrote:

what are the chances that this city can replace the island that we are using now?

The current test island we can play around in now is just the placeholder for the city that's being described in this thread. Like Huckleberry said the chances that this city will "replace" the island is 100% by design.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Red Warlock
Red Warlock's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 51 min ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 22:09
slagger wrote:
slagger wrote:

what are the chances that this city can replace the island that we are using now?

This update we did a while ago has a section on 'neighborhoods' that shares a little more about how we are planning to go from the island to offering access to other city neighborhoods: https://cityoftitans.com/content/next-steps-building-city-titans

We have made a lot of progress on getting Alexandria ready and we think that will be the next 'big thing' we have ready now that flight is available... we are still working through some tech hurdles on it, but lots of progress has been made...

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

Foradain
Foradain's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 19 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/25/2013 - 21:06
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

...

That's actually a pretty cool idea. I looked up other ideas like that and it's called a funicular, in case anyone is interested. < snip >
I really like this idea.

In Los Angeles, there is Angels Flight:

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
Foradain's Character Conclave
Millennium City Refugee.
Avatar courtesy of Satellite9

Dark Cleric
Dark Cleric's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 2 min ago
Joined: 05/14/2018 - 12:26
Red Warlock wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

So the picture "Monument Plaza mogul at the center with twin Atlas statues at the top", I am just really confused by that area. The large ramp isn't a road for vehicles, at least it isn't connect to the road in front of it so I'm assuming is a pedestrian ramp, but it is absolutely massive when compared to the buildings next to it and the size a player would be compared to those buildings. And there is no road or sidewalk leading to those buildings? It just looks like a very odd area.

So I wanted to follow-up on the discussion here on this Monument Plaza area. I am going to share some pictures that show what's there now and I'll mention what is "Placeholder" and what we are thinking of adding.

First, Titan City has a lot of twisty, turning labyrinth roads to get lost in, but the lead-up to this plaza is one of the places where you can see the skyscraper and a straight line to it from far away. I'm picturing this will be a fun spot to super speed your way into Downtown starting from far-off in Alexandria:

As you pass the freeway, you can see that there are roadways in different directions heading into Old Bradford to the left, into Downtown up to the right, and the grand staircase for pedestrians heading directly into Downtown. Please ignore the ground area around the staircase as these buildings are temporary filler buildings. The roads and sidewalks are also unfinished, but show the layout:

Here's a picture close to the staircase.

The staircase itself is pretty simple right now and I'm considering elements to add to it, safety railing for sure, but maybe it could be done up with statues and ornaments like this staircase in Marseille:

At the top of the staircase is a plaza that is still in development. It needs some additional features, but here is some of what's been placed there now (including an elevator...):

So, the idea is for this to be a big, open public entryway into Downtown for pedestrians, maybe a nice area for surprise battles, and a fun place to run up the wall of a skyscraper... The staircase is steep, big and simple, but kind of like some grand staircases in Europe, maybe just a little super-sized. I personally like the daunting staircase because I feel like it adds to the feeling of height leading up to the skyscrapers, almost like a modern-day version of great pyramid steps.

The area needs some more work, but let me know if after seeing the planning for this plaza it if you think it makes sense, or if you have suggestions for improvements.

Thanks for the info. I think this has brought about some good discussion from both the dev side and our side. I'm confident the team will be able to make some improvements after testing and taking feedback into consideration. It's hard to decipher what, in the pictures, is 'set' and final and what is still being worked. What I mean is I assume the big major buildings height and location are probably 'set' though polish and details, like aesthetic cracks and signs, etc, may not be final. So, thinking along those same lines, its good to hear that the buildings around that staircase are not 'set', and same with the roads and sidewalks around it.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
I am in the process of

I am in the process of reading the latest e-mail update. I am absolutely LOVING the detailed write-ups for each Mogul. No matter what the cost of the effort was to make those, the fact that there are so many buildings and landmarks in the city with such rich history and meaning is going to make the city far more interesting than the soulless buildings that populated CoX.

I am also liking the hints to the missions that might be available at each mogul as well.

Anyone who doubts the progress being made should spend some time going through all those mogul summaries.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Red Warlock
Red Warlock's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 51 min ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 22:09
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I am in the process of reading the latest e-mail update. I am absolutely LOVING the detailed write-ups for each Mogul. No matter what the cost of the effort was to make those, the fact that there are so many buildings and landmarks in the city with such rich history and meaning is going to make the city far more interesting than the soulless buildings that populated CoX.

I am also liking the hints to the missions that might be available at each mogul as well.

Anyone who doubts the progress being made should spend some time going through all those mogul summaries.

So glad you are enjoying them Huckleberry!

People should have received this email, but just for reference...

Here's a web link to the email with Downtown content: https://conta.cc/3BJij2T
We also did an earlier email like this with Old Bradford content here: https://conta.cc/2Q37PbX
And we also have a similar one for Alexandria content: https://conta.cc/39VTIfE

It's a lot of information, but it shows that a great deal of work has been completed on the game environment and provides insight for anyone who wants to really explore the details of what the neighborhoods will be like...

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
I don't think I ever had an

I don't think I ever had an appreciation of the absolute scale of the city until I saw all the images.

Take this one, for example:

This is going to feel like a real city. It is going to be a character of its own and I feel will not be just scenery to the players who live there. I fully expect the games journalists who end up writing about CoT will be saying much the same.

Edit: Now that I've looked at the majority of landmarks and moguls of Downtown, I do have one significant criticism. There is too much wasted acreage. Architects would want to make the most efficient use of the building site's footprint as possible. Just look at any city anywhere and you'll see buildings go right up to the sidewalks every chance they get. The only ones that don't are the exception that proves the rule. In Titan City, however, it appears as if the buildings were built first and then placed in their locations as an afterthought, without regard to the size and shape of their lots. Take the Prometheus building, for example. That is the building that is based on New York's Flatiron building. There was a real reason why the original flatiron building is shaped the way it is. That's because it was built between two streets that intersect at a narrow angle. In Titan City, you've placed the Prometheus building on a square lot. That just seems wrong.

I think you'll find after not much study at all, that the first few ground-level floors take advantage of the footprint available, offer up commercial and retail space and even parking. It is not until one gets above these that most buildings assume their iconic tower shape. I recommend MWM city designers try adopting that aesthetic for many of these buildings.

So anywhere a building doesn't butt up against the sidewalk should appear to be an deliberate set-aside by the city to be a park-like area or something similar, just like how Deckler fountain is.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 25 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I don't think I ever had an appreciation of the absolute scale of the city until I saw all the images.

Take this one, for example:

This is going to feel like a real city. It is going to be a character of its own and I feel will not be just scenery to the players who live there. I fully expect the games journalists who end up writing about CoT will be saying much the same.

Just as an "interesting thought" one has to wonder how large the TOG cityscape would have seemed if it had been set in one single huge contiguous map without the warwalls. I've forgotten the exact stats ATM but I'm pretty sure CoT is much larger area-wise regardless.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Red Warlock
Red Warlock's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 51 min ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 22:09
Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I don't think I ever had an appreciation of the absolute scale of the city until I saw all the images.

Take this one, for example:

This is going to feel like a real city. It is going to be a character of its own and I feel will not be just scenery to the players who live there. I fully expect the games journalists who end up writing about CoT will be saying much the same.

Just as an "interesting thought" one has to wonder how large the TOG cityscape would have seemed if it had been set in one single huge contiguous map without the warwalls. I've forgotten the exact stats ATM but I'm pretty sure CoT is much larger area-wise regardless.

It's hard for me to compare the total footprint between the two environments because both are huge. But in terms of story content related to architecture in each zone, there's a vast difference between CoT and TOG. What will certainly be different about CoT is that we have tried to place story in small and interesting ways in every corner of every zone. The landmarks and moguls have helped us with that a lot - but they are only the beginning. There's a LOT of interesting stuff we've added that aren't even featured in these updates we've shared.

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 14 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Take the Prometheus building, for example. That is the building that is based on New York's Flatiron building. There was a real reason why the original flatiron building is shaped the way it is. That's because it was built between two streets that intersect at a narrow angle. In Titan City, you've placed the Prometheus building on a square lot. That just seems wrong.

Easiest solution to that is to place TWO triangular buildings on a square lot, with both triangles "bounding" edges of the square leaving a diagonal space in between them across the square.

Extra bonus points for aligning the diagonal to permit sunlight and shade to happen during the day in the diagonal between the two triangular buildings.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 53 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:


There is too much wasted acreage. Architects would want to make the most efficient use of the building site's footprint as possible.

I disagree. Spaces between buildings and green-spaces in general, Enhance the pleasantness of city-scapes. They also help reduce (forest) fires. Titan City's architects already understand the experience of big fires in tight spaces.

I do agree that Parking would be important.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Red Warlock
Red Warlock's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 51 min ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 22:09
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Edit: Now that I've looked at the majority of landmarks and moguls of Downtown, I do have one significant criticism. There is too much wasted acreage. Architects would want to make the most efficient use of the building site's footprint as possible...

This is a point that gets to the remaining work to be done in Downtown. The landmarks and moguls are complete. The roads are complete. Most of the district is filled with interesting architecture. But there remain many open spaces that absolutely need more architecture or at least landscaping definition for the area.

So, good eye in catching this, but don’t worry because we absolutely plan to use every corner of Downtown for the prime real estate it represents! In fact, most of these landmark and mogul pictures were taken back in December and have had work on roads, infill and landscaping around the buildings added after these photos were originally shot.

So, point well taken, and we are working on that…

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

There is too much wasted acreage. Architects would want to make the most efficient use of the building site's footprint as possible.

I disagree. Spaces between buildings and green-spaces in general, Enhance the pleasantness of city-scapes. They also help reduce (forest) fires. Titan City's architects already understand the experience of big fires in tight spaces.

You may disagree all you want, but that does not change the reality. One need only look at the downtown areas of Boston, Philadelphia and New York City to see the truth of my observation. Most especially, look at how the buildings in those cities reflect road curves and angles. I also recommend going to google street view for the scene at street level.

I've limited my discussion so far to New England cities, since Titan City is supposedly a neighbor and contemporary to those, suffering from the same limitations of historic roots and limited ability to sprawl. Feel free to examine any American city of the same size, if you'd like. Chicago, San Francisco and San Diego are fine choices for comparison. (both Chicago and San Franciso also suffered massive destruction from fires)

From a game design perspective, however, I'm sure there is a happy compromise to be made. Tight city streets may be realistic, but how well do they support MMO gameplay? I only played Champions Online for about 20 minutes, but I'm quite familiar with Gotham and Metropolis in DCUO and those cities have tight streets, so the precedent is there. I personally think that the downtown area SHOULD have a claustrophobic feel to it with a predominance of the vertical element. There will be other areas of the city that can provide different feels, but that's how downtown should feel it were up to me.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 14 hours 45 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
There are other co side

There are other co side rations when you design map space in games. Psychology plays a large part in how players may feel in games. I provided a GDC vid on this very topic to our team.

Large spaces can make characters feel small. It can result in character being spread out. In an MMO, this can create a sense of the “world” being empty of players.

It can also result in making people feel more lonely and cut off from other people in the game. Large spaces can feel overwhelming to a good segment of players in MMOs. Turns out there is a significant portion of MMO gamers that are introverts and large spaces in games can make such players anxious.

Smaller spaces (not claustrophobic) can create a sense of comfort. In the GDC they mentioned how casinos in Vegas studied this after a very expensive casino failed wondering why people would room there but not stay to gamble and would go to other casinos. Turns out the car so was designed to be large and open. But the candid people frequented had smaller rooms and broke up sight lined.

Not to mention, such design makes it harder to make a break for an exit. But the result is people end up feeling more comfortable when not crowded, but in a space where there are other people. And the same concepts were found to be true in games.

Of course there is a balance to it all. And there are tricks one can use in environment design to create openness that isn’t too vast or small places thst doesn’t create crowding.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
StellarAgent
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 21 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/25/2013 - 13:48
Sadly, Huckleberry, I

Sadly, Huckleberry, I disagree. Where I come from, green space and having an open downtown is the norm. Everytime I've visited the US of A I have had a difficult time adjusting to the claustrophobic conditions and the grey blandness of your Concrete Jungles.
We like our green spaces, cleaner air and openness of our cities.
To each his own.

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
StellarAgent wrote:
StellarAgent wrote:

Sadly, Huckleberry, I disagree. Where I come from, green space and having an open downtown is the norm. Everytime I've visited the US of A I have had a difficult time adjusting to the claustrophobic conditions and the grey blandness of your Concrete Jungles.
We like our green spaces, cleaner air and openness of our cities.
To each his own.

That’s my point. The northern of the 13 original colonies are what we call “New England.” The cities there are known for being very tight. Since Titan City is supposed to be one of them, it should faithfully reproduce that feel.

But New England cities are not nearly as tightly packed as the even older cities of Europe. In Europe’s historic cities, the streets are even narrower and the buildings even more densely packed. But we’re not trying to reproduce an historic European city, we’re trying to reproduce an historic New England city.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Red Warlock
Red Warlock's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 51 min ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 22:09
Folks, we are going to have

Folks, we are going to have both. Green space is wonderful in cities (Central Park, Washington Square, and the High Line park show great open space in New York City, for example). But alongside all that fun open space exists a very dense concrete jungle to get lost in.

Both open space and narrow, labyrinthine architecture will be fun, and we have plenty of room for both…

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
I found a great discussion of

I found a great discussion of setbacks in commercial city centers here, using New York City as its basis for discussion. And found the related setback requirements for Boston here(click the search icon and look for "setbacks" or "article 21" its a non-secure site so direct links to the actual content don't work. Might be worth a look for anyone willing to do a deep dive on the architectural constraints of New England's iconic big cities, or if you're just a retentive geek like me.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
7thGate
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/03/2013 - 20:24
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I don't think I ever had an appreciation of the absolute scale of the city until I saw all the images.

Take this one, for example:

This is going to feel like a real city. It is going to be a character of its own and I feel will not be just scenery to the players who live there. I fully expect the games journalists who end up writing about CoT will be saying much the same.

Edit: Now that I've looked at the majority of landmarks and moguls of Downtown, I do have one significant criticism. There is too much wasted acreage. Architects would want to make the most efficient use of the building site's footprint as possible. Just look at any city anywhere and you'll see buildings go right up to the sidewalks every chance they get. The only ones that don't are the exception that proves the rule. In Titan City, however, it appears as if the buildings were built first and then placed in their locations as an afterthought, without regard to the size and shape of their lots. Take the Prometheus building, for example. That is the building that is based on New York's Flatiron building. There was a real reason why the original flatiron building is shaped the way it is. That's because it was built between two streets that intersect at a narrow angle. In Titan City, you've placed the Prometheus building on a square lot. That just seems wrong.

I think you'll find after not much study at all, that the first few ground-level floors take advantage of the footprint available, offer up commercial and retail space and even parking. It is not until one gets above these that most buildings assume their iconic tower shape. I recommend MWM city designers try adopting that aesthetic for many of these buildings.

So anywhere a building doesn't butt up against the sidewalk should appear to be an deliberate set-aside by the city to be a park-like area or something similar, just like how Deckler fountain is.

That's my Mogul building!

I have to say, I'm incredibly excited to see that in the city. Its just so cool to see a little piece of something that I came up with inserted into the world like that.

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
7thGate wrote:
7thGate wrote:

That's my Mogul building!

I have to say, I'm incredibly excited to see that in the city. Its just so cool to see a little piece of something that I came up with inserted into the world like that.

Which one? The two most prominent in that picture are Fiero Tower and Hotel Tethys. I really like both of them and I must admit I am totally jealous of you and the courage you had to back this at that level when City of Titans was still an unknown entity.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
slagger
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 1 day ago
Joined: 05/22/2021 - 18:41
Red Warlock wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:
slagger wrote:

what are the chances that this city can replace the island that we are using now?

This update we did a while ago has a section on 'neighborhoods' that shares a little more about how we are planning to go from the island to offering access to other city neighborhoods: https://cityoftitans.com/content/next-steps-building-city-titans

We have made a lot of progress on getting Alexandria ready and we think that will be the next 'big thing' we have ready now that flight is available... we are still working through some tech hurdles on it, but lots of progress has been made...

not trying to ba an ass, just want to make sure that i have my info straight.

the plan is to give us that city to play in during alpha, to replace the island we are in now, before the multiplayer and all is ready to go and there is something preventing the island from being replaced now?

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 14 hours 45 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
slagger wrote:
slagger wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:
slagger wrote:

what are the chances that this city can replace the island that we are using now?

This update we did a while ago has a section on 'neighborhoods' that shares a little more about how we are planning to go from the island to offering access to other city neighborhoods: https://cityoftitans.com/content/next-steps-building-city-titans

We have made a lot of progress on getting Alexandria ready and we think that will be the next 'big thing' we have ready now that flight is available... we are still working through some tech hurdles on it, but lots of progress has been made...

not trying to ba an ass, just want to make sure that i have my info straight.

the plan is to give us that city to play in during alpha, to replace the island we are in now, before the multiplayer and all is ready to go and there is something preventing the island from being replaced now?

Not before multiplayer. The goal is getting multiplayer and chat working on a city map. Thus replacing the island when you enter the game.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 25 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
slagger wrote:
slagger wrote:

not trying to ba an ass, just want to make sure that i have my info straight.

the plan is to give us that city to play in during alpha, to replace the island we are in now, before the multiplayer and all is ready to go and there is something preventing the island from being replaced now?

I didn't think you were trying to be an "ass" but I suspect the main city map is so large and detailed that despite the pics we're being shown it's likely far from being 100% done.

The likely fact that the city "isn't finished yet" is probably going to be the simplest answer to what would prevent the island from being replaced right now.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 14 hours 45 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
Alexandria is fairly “done”

Alexandria is fairly “done” enough fir an alpha at least. It’s the multiplayer snd chat we have to integrate. And before that happens it’s a matter of getting the account log in set up, the client server set up. Then there is making sure we have the funds to cover the cost for running it all.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
Red Warlock
Red Warlock's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 51 min ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 22:09
Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
slagger wrote:

not trying to ba an ass, just want to make sure that i have my info straight.

the plan is to give us that city to play in during alpha, to replace the island we are in now, before the multiplayer and all is ready to go and there is something preventing the island from being replaced now?

I didn't think you were trying to be an "ass" but I suspect the main city map is so large and detailed that despite the pics we're being shown it's likely far from being 100% done.

The likely fact that the city "isn't finished yet" is probably going to be the simplest answer to what would prevent the island from being replaced right now.

Think of it like this, when players tested flight on the island, there was a pause on high leaping because the specific test for the moment was flight. That doesn't mean anything is on hold for development of Super Jump. The leaping feature in the game was a temporary power we shared that will ultimately be replaced with a much better Super Jump power. Removing that leaping temporarily just made sense at the moment while players are testing flight.

We haven't decided all of the features that will be available (or not available) during player testing of the Alexandria District. I honestly don't know if players will have access to the island as well as the Alexandria test zone. Someone in tech may know the answer to that. But I do know that when players test Alexandria, if that is the only game environment available to players during that testing time, that doesn't mean players won't have access to the island later. The island is a part of Titan City and a solid environment that will be available to players in the game.

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

Foradain
Foradain's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 19 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/25/2013 - 21:06
Red Warlock wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:

The island is a part of Titan City and a solid environment that will be available to players in the game.

It's nice to know that you didn't spend all that time, effort, and other resources on this Island, just for a test area. ^_^

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
Foradain's Character Conclave
Millennium City Refugee.
Avatar courtesy of Satellite9

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 53 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
Red Warlock wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:

Folks, we are going to have both.

Excellent! I don't think we had worked up much friction or negative energy about the matter. Alleys, streets, ways, avenues, boulevards, roads, drives, there's room and environment for all.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 9 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
Hey, MWM, I think you have

Hey, MWM, I think you have enough of the city built now to replace the photograph of New York City in the background of these forums with a "photograph" of Titan City. Whattya think?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Red Warlock
Red Warlock's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 51 min ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 22:09
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Hey, MWM, I think you have enough of the city built now to replace the photograph of New York City in the background of these forums with a "photograph" of Titan City. Whattya think?

Good point. We've intended to do this for a while... need to coordinate with our web team and graphics to get that in there...

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

Pages