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At least 16GB of main DRAM.
These stats may change as we continue to test.

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Discuss: A New Dawn

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Baalumbral
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Congrats on all the obvious

Congrats on all the obvious effort that has gone into laying the foundation for the future of CoT, keep up the good work!

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I figured this was something

I figured this was something in Unreal. Other UE3 games give you models to choose from for this reason and I don't know if that's the same for UE4.

Personally I like premade models provided you give enough potions. Wildstar's models for humans are varied enough for me. I think people used to other engines may want scaling but my personal view is that they're nice but not needed

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Cinnder wrote:
Don't get me wrong; I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't have video updates. I'm just saying that a cost/benefit analysis might be helpful when deciding what to post. The part of the video that showed combat didn't really provide anyone -- loyal fan nor sceptical newcomer -- anything substantive regarding combat, but it did pose a risk that potential customers in the latter category might be unimpressed enough to walk away.
Given that--as you rightly point out--there's always a risk that someone might complain about a video update, I'm just saying that I think MWM should ensure that any video clip illustrates an important feature in a significant way, in order to balance that risk with a benefit. In this case, I think the AB part of the video does that perfectly. The combat portion, not so much.

I'd say, to those who just see that video and base their opinion on that, they'll likely think the fighting aspect of the game will suck. :p We saw some slow punches, that was it. Since I know it's still way early beta, my only real hope was that it gets sped up and they do some awesome hand to hand animations later.

You think we're in beta already? Aren't you the optimist. :P

To me the punching stuff went with the "we have combat!" announcement, rather than a case of "look at our awesome combat!" Now that we have combat they can go about making it look awesome. Heck, having Odo show off some crowd control would be spiffy, whether or not it comes with fancy animations. 'cause I gather we have a few controller fans 'round these parts.

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Rock and a hard place. Two,

Rock and a hard place. Two, actually. And I think in both cases they chose well.

Especially in highly complex endeavors, taking your time at first and focusing on good fundamentals is the surest path to a truly great result in the long run. Any true master of any high-level art or skill will tell you this. It is also the surest path to a totally unimpressive result, at least to the uninitiated, in the short run.

Rushing at first and skipping steps to accomplish the kinds of things that people like to see is the surest path to impressing people in the short run. But it doesn't take much perspicacity to guess what that leaves you with in the long run--a mess to clean up.

That's just a function of how things work.

I'm sure a huge, highly financed company can do both, but that's not what MWM is. Luckily, MWM has chosen the first path. So, the question becomes, should they show these hard-to-appreciate short-term results?

They seem to feel that the feedback they receive--good, bad, and ugly--is valuable, and they seem to be able to take it. Also, they seem determined to deliver a game so good that the nay-sayers, in the end, just shut up and play :P.

If it is true--as is oft said--that any publicity is good publicity, then they have chosen the right path. The more buzz about the game--good, bad, or ugly--the better. At least it is drawing attention and keeping it on people's minds.

So... there it is.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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good job? Great job!

good job? Great job!

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
Don't get me wrong; I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't have video updates. I'm just saying that a cost/benefit analysis might be helpful when deciding what to post. The part of the video that showed combat didn't really provide anyone -- loyal fan nor sceptical newcomer -- anything substantive regarding combat, but it did pose a risk that potential customers in the latter category might be unimpressed enough to walk away.
Given that--as you rightly point out--there's always a risk that someone might complain about a video update, I'm just saying that I think MWM should ensure that any video clip illustrates an important feature in a significant way, in order to balance that risk with a benefit. In this case, I think the AB part of the video does that perfectly. The combat portion, not so much.

I'd say, to those who just see that video and base their opinion on that, they'll likely think the fighting aspect of the game will suck. :p We saw some slow punches, that was it. Since I know it's still way early beta, my only real hope was that it gets sped up and they do some awesome hand to hand animations later.

You think we're in beta already? Aren't you the optimist. :P
To me the punching stuff went with the "we have combat!" announcement, rather than a case of "look at our awesome combat!" Now that we have combat they can go about making it look awesome. Heck, having Odo show off some crowd control would be spiffy, whether or not it comes with fancy animations. 'cause I gather we have a few controller fans 'round these parts.

This is certainly not Beta, its not even alpha, the video shows a prototype. Prototypes are typically not "shiny" you get the most basic fundamental pieces you need for function and build from there.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

This is certainly not Beta, its not even alpha, the video shows a prototype. Prototypes are typically not "shiny" you get the most basic fundamental pieces you need for function and build from there.

This is just going to have to become a mantra for a while yet. Repeated ad nauseam.

People generally like to see the nice, tasty grilled sausage lovingly arranged on the plate beside some complimentary yummies, ready for consumption.

All we currently have to show is the raw offal and intestinal casing that you're going to use to make the sausage. Some people can see where it's heading, others can only see "ewwwwww!" :).

This:

makes this:

No way around it :P.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Y'all should move to Germany.

Y'all should move to Germany. They do love their food and cooking shows, and they aren't at all shy about showing how butchers make their sausage.

'course we're talking real sausage, here, not hot dogs, so it's probably not nearly as terrifying as most Americans expect.

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Cinnder
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There may be a bit of point

There may be a bit of point-missing going on here. Those of us following the game here know it's a prototype and isn't gonna look all shiny and done. We appreciate the efforts being made, the lessons learned, the obstacles overcome. Some of the people who stumble across the video might realise this also. But some won't.

The AB footage looks good. The city looks great. The music is outstanding. Even though those are all pre-alpha, they still are positive advertising, even to the uninitiated. The combat footage is not. This causes some of us who want only the best for CoT to question why the combat footage was chosen, given that, unlike the previous 3 topics, nothing was illustrated by that footage that could not have been equally adequately conveyed with just words -- without the associated risk of not-looking-good-ness that then has to be explained by repeated references to the pre-alpha, sausage-in-mid-creation state.

We're just asking MWM to be careful and consider whether video is necessarily the best medium for a given topic at a given stage.

Mmm...sausage...

Spurn all ye kindle.

Darth Fez
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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

... nothing was illustrated by that footage that could not have been equally adequately conveyed with just words -- without the associated risk of not-looking-good-ness that then has to be explained by repeated references to the pre-alpha, sausage-in-mid-creation state.

Fair enough, but we've also seen how some people have responded to "just words".

Heads you win, tails I lose.

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I can't help but hear your

I can't help but hear your first sentence in Loki's voice. :-)

I'd say better to make those clamouring for video wait till it's in a more illustrative state.* I think less damage can be done by people imagining it might not look good than by giving them pre-alpha footage that doesn't which they can point to. It goes back to that quote that I think you gave me(?): "Give the players what they want; not what they think they want."

* Besides, I think the AB video would have been sufficient to placate that crowd for the moment.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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As an off-the-cuff suggestion

As an off-the-cuff suggestion since we know the Devs have told us they intend to get a working costume creator up and running long before there's a testable alpha/beta of the game itself maybe it would be a good idea for MWM to mainly focus only on showing us elements of that for the near-term. The theory behind this suggestion is pretty simple - since the costume creator is likely going to be the first most "finished" aspect of the game it'll provide the "best foot forward" for MWM to show off their most appealing, polished work in general.

Basically at this point we can imagine what the game world itself will look like and even what things like combat will look like so we don't need to see more primitive prototypes of those things again anytime soon. Concentration on the most finished parts of the game will be the best way to avoid having anyone else get "confused" by prototype work being mistaken for final versions of things.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I can't help but hear your first sentence in Loki's voice. :-)

I shall take your comparison to a puny god under advisement. >.>

The idea behind that quote certainly stands, although one has to allow for this being a Kickstarter effort. Just as MWM can't afford to waste several weeks or months of work creating pretties to show off at E3, I don't believe they need to - or should - wait until things are sufficiently pretty and polished (after all, they never are) before they show them for fear that someone, somewhere, will be put off.

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What it comes down to is, are

What it comes down to is, are we trying to advertise anyway? Is any of this for advertisement?

And the answer is, hell no. None of this is. Nothing we have done since the KS is intended for any but those dedicated followers and backers who want, even need, to see signs of progress. Any other audiences that end up seeing it due to Massively OP voluntarily featuring it, for instance, is simply collateral effect, and not something we want to be guided by. All the arguments I'm seeing revolve around the assumption we want to be able to impress passing strangers. We don't. We're not worried about them right now.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Nothing we have done since the KS is intended for any but those dedicated followers and backers who want, even need, to see signs of progress.

+1

The shadow boxing (is that a UE4 animation) made me chuckle. :)
I've been manically working on the kissUI asset for Unity 5, so i'm sorry if I'm mistaken about it.

I'm the kind of person that Wants to see any landmark progress, even if it's not too pretty. :)

Lin Chiao Feng
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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

We should keep in mind that it's not only the faithful who are likely to see these videos.

The unfaithful can just go ahead and [REDACTED] me. We're trying to make something here, not secure VC funding with rigged demos and empty promises.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

I'm the kind of person that Wants to see any landmark progress, even if it's not too pretty. :)

As am I, and I suspect we're not alone in that regard. After all, a picture is worth a thousand words, and 1m52s of 30 frames per second is like, 3,360,000 words! It's great fuel for discussion and the imagination, and I personally find it very inspiring no matter how unrefined it may be.

We're witnessing the miraculous birth of a new virtual universe. Every update is like a new constellation; a shimmering spate of stars in the celestial void that CoH left in its wake. It's as though we're already in its midst as it unfolds, and every two weeks, we open our eyes ever slightly further. Months will pass, and when we finally blink for the first time, we'll see the extraordinary world that we've been a part of all along.

Anyways, I'm especially pleased with this update because the character rig has been one of MWM's greatest challenges to date. We've heard many times before how critical it was and how they were always so close to making it work but never seemed to make it over the hump. This update goes to show just what kind of skill and determination the MWM team has and proves how committed they are to getting it right. I'm very impressed.

For all of you devs reading this, I salute you! Keep up the good work!

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Plexius wrote:
Plexius wrote:

For all of you devs reading this, I salute you! Keep up the good work!

+1.

But I'm guessing a normal player might not be impressed UNTIL they see how a TATTOO might be repositioned on the skinned mesh.

ex. Options:

Place Tattoo.. Choose one..
- Left Arm
- Right Arm
- Left Leg
- Right Leg
- Torso ,includes Buttocks. :)

- Slider 1 for Vertical position
- Slider 2 for Horizontal position
- Slider 3 for rotation

Once they see that, regular players might show a sigh of relief. ;D

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Plexius wrote:
For all of you devs reading this, I salute you! Keep up the good work!

+1.
But I'm guessing a normal player might not be impressed UNTIL they see how a TATTOO might be repositioned on the skinned mesh.
ex. Options:
Place Tattoo.. Choose one..
- Left Arm
- Right Arm
- Left Leg
- Right Leg
- Torso ,includes Buttocks. :)
- Slider 1 for Vertical position
- Slider 2 for Horizontal position
- Slider 3 for rotation
Once they see that, regular players might show a sigh of relief. ;D

If we could place a symbol or "tattoo" on skin or clothing like the game APB? I'd be a very happy man.

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Looks great guys! This video

Looks great guys! This video has been a long time coming for me and it's great to see tangible forward progression!

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Izzy wrote:
Plexius wrote:
For all of you devs reading this, I salute you! Keep up the good work!

+1.
But I'm guessing a normal player might not be impressed UNTIL they see how a TATTOO might be repositioned on the skinned mesh.
ex. Options:
Place Tattoo.. Choose one..
- Left Arm
- Right Arm
- Left Leg
- Right Leg
- Torso ,includes Buttocks. :)
- Slider 1 for Vertical position
- Slider 2 for Horizontal position
- Slider 3 for rotation
Once they see that, regular players might show a sigh of relief. ;D

If we could place a symbol or "tattoo" on skin or clothing like the game APB? I'd be a very happy man.

I think you'll be pleased.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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Wait a minute! Did I read it

Wait a minute! Did I read it right? Somewhere in here there a post that said there was a poser program in the character creator just for still photos? that you could go frame by frame until you got just what you wanted?

That is totally wicked! that is so cool! that is customer service like I never expected it to be!
Things like this are what endears me to the CoT project. I just wish I could go back in time and kickstart y'all.

oh and if the Devs are reading this, please put the U4 tunnel someplace. its really cool.

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Personally, I'm much more

Personally, I'm much more impressed by the video than I am by the naysayers, but then again, I'm eccentric that way.

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

Personally, I'm much more impressed by the video than I am by the naysayers, but then again, I'm eccentric that way.

+1

So you must not be all that eccentric ;P

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

What it comes down to is, are we trying to advertise anyway? Is any of this for advertisement?
And the answer is, hell no. None of this is. Nothing we have done since the KS is intended for any but those dedicated followers and backers who want, even need, to see signs of progress. Any other audiences that end up seeing it due to Massively OP voluntarily featuring it, for instance, is simply collateral effect, and not something we want to be guided by. All the arguments I'm seeing revolve around the assumption we want to be able to impress passing strangers. We don't. We're not worried about them right now.

Since I'm already in the doghouse and since I've already given my overall positive review of the video (even though it was not intended for me) let me ask: for people who are "not worried" you all certainly seemed to show up en masse to respond to any and all input over Massively OP. Why do that? I'm not saying it was the right thing or the wrong thing to do. But if it was all simply a "collateral effect" you all certainly seemed to roll out the heavy artillery to deal with it.

I want to love you guys so much but it's a walking contradiction. The business...of volunteers. The people who aren't worried about what passing strangers think... who show up when they appear. The community effort.. who is only ready to deal with one segment of the community. Can you help me understand (or just tell me to go away)? Honestly, I'm not out to undermine anybody or anything. I'm just puzzled about the statements you make versus the things you do.

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Contradictions like the

Contradictions like the doghouse you perceive but are not at all in, too.

Can't say I've been to Massively. Did something happen there?

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Interdictor wrote:
Izzy wrote:
Plexius wrote:
For all of you devs reading this, I salute you! Keep up the good work!

+1.
But I'm guessing a normal player might not be impressed UNTIL they see how a TATTOO might be repositioned on the skinned mesh.
ex. Options:
Place Tattoo.. Choose one..
- Left Arm
- Right Arm
- Left Leg
- Right Leg
- Torso ,includes Buttocks. :)
- Slider 1 for Vertical position
- Slider 2 for Horizontal position
- Slider 3 for rotation
Once they see that, regular players might show a sigh of relief. ;D

If we could place a symbol or "tattoo" on skin or clothing like the game APB? I'd be a very happy man.

I think you'll be pleased.

Ooooh I like that. Despite however much APB sucked in other aspects (trust me the TPS aspect of that game was wonky and the community for that game was one of the worst I have seen) it's customization was crazy fun.

If you want an idea for just how bad APB's community are (it's gotten even worse since the game went free to play and rebranded itself as APB: Reloaded) an art developer was driven out the forums and in-game because she was constantly being harassed for being a ''hacker'' (hacker accusations by morons are common in that community).

What really happened? She was just hanging out with a group of rational people from both factions in-game before a bunch of idiots decided to start a gang war. To avoid being shot full of bullets she noclipped herself and positioned herself above the firefight. Said idiots started accusing her of being an hacker and when she defended herself on the forums they just destroyed her.

How do I know all that? I was a forum mod (I banned and warned many trolls that day) and I was there when the firefight happened in-game. Yeah it's safe to say you don't want a community like that.....

Formerly known as Bleddyn

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There is a big difference

There is a big difference between not *trying* to attract strangers and ignoring them. It is thoroughly and ridiculously impractical for us to try and impress anyone at such an early stage of development, especially with our low resources. That doesn't mean that when Massively picks up on something we do anyway we're just going to give them the cold shoulder and deliberately allow misunderstanding to fester. But trying to make the videos impressive to strangers would require time and resources we simply don't have to spare. My responses to the people on Massively suggesting ways to jazz up the video were the same as I've given here: we are not at a press release stage yet, this is simply meant to show those who care that we have been making progress.

We are volunteers by necessity: it's the only way we can make this happen, if we're not willing to be funded by - and therefore owned by - other parties. That doesn't mean we're going to be unprofessional, or that we have no plans to become self-sufficient. We have incorporated and organized ourselves as a business because that is what we intend to be. We're genuinely enthused by the idea of being successful game developers. Once we've succeeded at this, we want to see if we can do it again - bring the same lessons to another game, another genre of MMO. City of Titans is not the end of our ambitions.

I have no idea where you got the bit about ignoring parts of the community though Fire Away, unless that's your interpretation of me saying our updates are for our followers and backers. Which...still bewilders me.

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Contradictions like the doghouse you perceive but are not at all in, too.

Lin hit it on the nose here.

You stated your opinion, and most people disagreed.

That doesn't put you in the doghouse, just in the minority.

And minority opinions are just as valuable as majority opinions--more valuable in many cases because they bring up alternate perspectives.

So, row row, brotha! Glad you're here.

Fire Away wrote:

for people who are "not worried" you all certainly seemed to show up en masse to respond to any and all input over Massively OP. Why do that? I'm not saying it was the right thing or the wrong thing to do. But if it was all simply a "collateral effect" you all certainly seemed to roll out the heavy artillery to deal with it.

Showing up en masse to respond in support of something is generally more likely to be a sign of support than worry.

Showing up to detract is a sign of worry.

You're worried. You have your reasons. You bring up things that are good to consider.

Who knows who's right and who's wrong? We'll just have to wait and see.

Row row.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I'd normally edit but

I'd normally edit but something seems to have happened to that function, so I have to make a new comment to add that I'm not sure what doghouse you're talking about either. So you triggered a debate. Nobody's *angry* yet.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

I'd normally edit but something seems to have happened to that function, so I have to make a new comment to add that I'm not sure what doghouse you're talking about either. So you triggered a debate. Nobody's *angry* yet.

Exactly. You triggered a debate.

We all care about this game, so we are vociferously passionate.

So, debate is good. Glad you're here, Fire Away.

Passionate, yes. Mad, nah.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I have not see anyone here go

I have not see anyone here go full trollmania or full ignorant negative nancy in this forum. I'd imagine those types are people have been around these forums at some points but they didn't really last long.

That is a good thing and is an intentional compliment to people on this forum. I have seen a great deal of well....shitty communities (as I said before I was a forum mod or GM for a few) but this community is certainly not one of em. It's breathe of fresh air really that we are actually debating about issues, not attacking eachother (although I have seen some snipes).

Formerly known as Bleddyn

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Kiyori Anoyui
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Awesome video, thanks for the

Awesome video, thanks for the awesome update! ^-^

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"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One

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Great job, folks! Always so

Great job, folks! Always so inspired when I see how this project is coming together. :)

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@Fire Away - there's a fine

@Fire Away - there's a fine line here between triggering a debate and triggering a nuclear attack. My advice coming from previous experience is to be very careful how you word your opinions. I tried to trigger a debate once, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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You are welcomed to be here

You are welcomed to be here FIre Away. It's rare that people see games at such an early stage, given how MWM is funded by Crowd sorce. Created by Crowd input and volunteer work force. MWM is a very different beast than any other studio. Part of that is the desire to let the community know they are doing something if they keep quiet to long people will worry they aren't doing anything. So It's a damned if they do damned if they don't.

Show early stuff and bring up the naysayers. Hold back stuff and people start bring up things like not keeping Kickstarter goals, fears it was a scam, or vaporware and will never be done. It's a balancing act and judgement call.

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We're sufficiently aware of

We're sufficiently aware of the what *inevitable* balance is to estimate when what we're encountering is beyond that. I'll regularly get pointed to furors spotted by other team members somewhere on the net they're worried about. As a general rule, once I've cast an eye over the overall situation, I end up telling them 'don't worry about it, it's right on the average'. Meaning that the proportions of individuals on each side is about right, and the ones defending us aren't having to invent excuses that aren't actually true or what we've told them.

--------------------------

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I'm so excited!

I'm so excited!
And I just can't fight it!

It's all lookin' good, MWM! You guys have my continued respect and admiration for pouring as much of your "me" time into this as you are.


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I'm actually VERY glad you

I'm actually VERY glad you showed off the targeting and combat at this stage. I know standard setup for Unreal is to make everything a first, or third person shooter, and that means that going tab-targeting from there is some extra work to shift to tab. It would have been neat if you could have gotten damage on the screen, and a cooldown timer for the punch attack up and running in time, but hey, I saw things I wanted to see already. It won't be long until I see more...

Obligatory "SOON! (tm)" ;)

Stalkers don't die: They simply... Disappear.

Kiyori Anoyui
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Stalker wrote:
Stalker wrote:

But hey, I saw things I wanted to see already. It won't be long until I see more...

No doubt, I'm so glad we are getting to see a little into this stage of development, it is very promising :)

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Just thought I'd drop in to

Just thought I'd drop in to say that, reading the post, I am remarkably giddy about Cassandra. Seems straight up awesome.

I do a DnD Podcast, which can be listened to here.

Additionally, I write up my sessions of a Teen Heroes game here.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

What it comes down to is, are we trying to advertise anyway? Is any of this for advertisement?
And the answer is, hell no. None of this is. Nothing we have done since the KS is intended for any but those dedicated followers and backers who want, even need, to see signs of progress. Any other audiences that end up seeing it due to Massively OP voluntarily featuring it, for instance, is simply collateral effect, and not something we want to be guided by. All the arguments I'm seeing revolve around the assumption we want to be able to impress passing strangers. We don't. We're not worried about them right now.

That is all I got from this update. I'm a backer of this project and it was for me. I was very happy with the progress seen here. That's it and thank you.

Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.

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Stalker wrote:
Stalker wrote:

It would have been neat if you could have gotten damage on the screen, and a cooldown timer for the punch attack up and running in time, but hey, I saw things I wanted to see already.

Things like that are probably going to be implemented in the 2D UI layered over the 3D view, so they're probably way down the pipe. Targeting circles obviously need to be in the 3D view.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Stalker wrote:
It would have been neat if you could have gotten damage on the screen, and a cooldown timer for the punch attack up and running in time, but hey, I saw things I wanted to see already.
Things like that are probably going to be implemented in the 2D UI layered over the 3D view, so they're probably way down the pipe. Targeting circles obviously need to be in the 3D view.

Can't speak as to how far down the pipe they might be, but yes, targeting circles (and pretty much any other form of targeting marker that is scaled with and "out in" the world), while they do have some minimal relationship to frustrum-bound UI elements (a.k.a. HUD elements -- "frustrum" is the name of the invisible 'pane of glass' that represents the display presented to the user, and is what a HUD would be projected on if it were a real thing rather than a virtual one), the overlap is maybe 10-20% for most cases.

Some of the most recent advances in UMG (Unreal Motion Graphics, the main "in house" menu-and-etc system for UE4) may make that somewhat less true, in the sense that they added the ability to "paint" a UI onto something other than the frustrum, such as "a wall in the world", but that's still pretty distinct from with stuff that is fundamentally 3D rather than projected 2D (and you pretty much need plenty of both).


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Lin Chiao Feng
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DeathSheepFromHell wrote:
DeathSheepFromHell wrote:

they added the ability to "paint" a UI onto something other than the frustrum, such as "a wall in the world"

Do you happen to remember what they call this, or have a link to an example? As described, it sounds like clickable control panels and such mapped to 3D objects, so you could have an in-game tablet or whatever.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Bleddyn wrote:
Bleddyn wrote:

I have not see anyone here go full trollmania or full ignorant negative nancy in this forum. I'd imagine those types are people have been around these forums at some points but they didn't really last long.
That is a good thing and is an intentional compliment to people on this forum. I have seen a great deal of well....shitty communities (as I said before I was a forum mod or GM for a few) but this community is certainly not one of em. It's breathe of fresh air really that we are actually debating about issues, not attacking eachother (although I have seen some snipes).

The City of Heroes community and forum were always this way. I got a horrible shock when I, through necessity, had to move from CoH to other MMOs, and discovered just how toxic and vile those communities could be.

Not saying that everyone there was bad, nor that CoH didn't sadly have it's own small number of trolls and annoyances (any of the old guard should know what I mean when I say 'GG'), but CoH was far and away the nicest environment I've ever been in online. Which kinda spoiled everything else I think, haha.
Hopefully, whatever happens, we can get that back.

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Working.

Working.
Object is a Class M Playerbase ...


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Just wanted to say I loved

Just wanted to say I loved the update!

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

DeathSheepFromHell wrote:
they added the ability to "paint" a UI onto something other than the frustrum, such as "a wall in the world"
Do you happen to remember what they call this, or have a link to an example? As described, it sounds like clickable control panels and such mapped to 3D objects, so you could have an in-game tablet or whatever.

A 3D UMG widget. Docs can be found at:

https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/UMG/HowTo/Create3DWidgets/index.html

The page isn't kidding about it being experimental; I believe it was first available in the mainline build in 4.6, but I've seen quite a few bug reports on it -- although they do seem to be pretty good about resolving them once someone spots one. Which seems to be par for the course for Epic, so major kudos to them for that (again). :)

Most examples I've seen to date are painted onto static meshes; I haven't done any digging to see whether they work on skeletal meshes, although I would *guess* that they probably work on static meshes that are set movable (which, with some finagling, would probably be enough to make something like a hand-held tablet work).

Certainly having something like a "simulated threat rendition with objective neutral guidance" room who's control UI was actually part of the room (or even a holographic menu that was *in* the room) would be pretty straightforward, from the look of the demo pieces.


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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Stalker wrote:
It would have been neat if you could have gotten damage on the screen, and a cooldown timer for the punch attack up and running in time, but hey, I saw things I wanted to see already.
Things like that are probably going to be implemented in the 2D UI layered over the 3D view, so they're probably way down the pipe. Targeting circles obviously need to be in the 3D view.

Yeah, I had assumed it would be further down the pipeline with incorporating a basic, initial UI. That UI will then go through a million and one iterations to feel familiar, intuitive, and clean, Where things are now, pushing a UI this early would almost seem silly. However, that doesn't mean it's as close as a month or two out.

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Techbot Alpha wrote:
Techbot Alpha wrote:

Bleddyn wrote:
I have not see anyone here go full trollmania or full ignorant negative nancy in this forum. I'd imagine those types are people have been around these forums at some points but they didn't really last long.
That is a good thing and is an intentional compliment to people on this forum. I have seen a great deal of well....shitty communities (as I said before I was a forum mod or GM for a few) but this community is certainly not one of em. It's breathe of fresh air really that we are actually debating about issues, not attacking eachother (although I have seen some snipes).

The City of Heroes community and forum were always this way. I got a horrible shock when I, through necessity, had to move from CoH to other MMOs, and discovered just how toxic and vile those communities could be.
Not saying that everyone there was bad, nor that CoH didn't sadly have it's own small number of trolls and annoyances (any of the old guard should know what I mean when I say 'GG'), but CoH was far and away the nicest environment I've ever been in online. Which kinda spoiled everything else I think, haha.
Hopefully, whatever happens, we can get that back.

My thoughts exactly. WoW back in it's early days also had an okay community from what I remember. The trolls and assholes were usually shunned on there own respective servers (this was before the inter server ques for everything) by the more friendly players. The sad thing about that game is the community slowly got worse and worse as it gained it's popularity. Blizzard didn't help by making more and more features that ended up helping trolls and assholes in there activities.

A lot of MMO games unfortunately suffer community breakdowns usually after launch. City of Titans thankfully does not look to be going anywhere near close to that and I am glad for

Formerly known as Bleddyn

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Artalis
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Is the one drawcall per

Is the one drawcall per character going to work with the improved drawcall tech in dx12? Which i guess leads me to ask: Is the game is going to be DX12 compatible?

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I'm not sure what I liked

I'm not sure what I liked more, the video or the technical explanation. For all my years I've never been able to understand what exactly weighting was (despite its very self explanatory name). Besides that I had never come across the term draw cell and for a person with a low end computer like mine, that little detail filled me with a bit of hope. I'm looking forward to future updates and supporting this all the way.

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Artalis wrote:
Artalis wrote:

Is the one drawcall per character going to work with the improved drawcall tech in dx12? Which i guess leads me to ask: Is the game is going to be DX12 compatible?

That is almost certainly going to be a function of what version of UE4 ends up supporting DX12 (I would say "if any" but the UE engine versions seem to be long-lived enough that if UE4 doesn't have DX12 it would probably be because they were on the verge of UE5 anyway).

In terms of Cassandra compatibility, all I can say is that technically, what it does now doesn't actually *guarantee* a single draw call, it just gives the greatest possible chance for the engine to set it up that way (specifically, it avoids a variety of things that are currently guaranteed to *force* multiple draw calls). Among other things, for example, a sufficiently large fused mesh can still end up taking multiple draw calls simply due to the limited amount of data that can fit into a single call.

But that limit is pretty large, well documented, fairly easy to spot when you trip over it, and is why there is still such a thing as a polygon budget... the budget just happens to be a whole lot higher than it was some years ago. Not quite to "more detail in the pinky finger than the whole body of yesteryear", but mostly because even with non-mitten hands there isn't actually much *use* for that level of detail, since it would map to a detail level that would be significantly less than a single pixel, even in an up-close tailor shot at maximum settings.

I can say this because I checked several of those numbers against things like "how much surface area does a human body have." Let's just say that if you really crammed detail into the hardware as hard as you could and used All The Tricks (well, not quite all, but the sane ones), you'd end up with a 'grain' smaller than most people can see without either a magnifier, or being within a few inches of their eyeball (for those with good focus at that range).


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It's very good that the game

It's very good that the game has fans who are enthusiastic about the progress but I was personally hoping for more polished stuff. Then again if the game has been in development only year and a half I guess that's to be expected. What concerns me more that you guys have only 1/3rd of your funds left after a single year. I mean are you planning to have the game out, polished, and profitable within a year or are you somehow planning to cut the license and other costs to 1/3rd - and even that would carry you guys only through the next year?

What happens if you run out of money?

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That cost was for

That cost was for infrastructure, not Pop-Rocks. Kinda hard to develop a game without hardware and software. The money had to be spent.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

That cost was for infrastructure, not Pop-Rocks. Kinda hard to develop a game without hardware and software. The money had to be spent.
Be Well!
Fireheart

+1 This comment XD

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

That cost was for infrastructure, not Pop-Rocks. Kinda hard to develop a game without hardware and software. The money had to be spent.
Be Well!
Fireheart

+1 indeed

No hardware, No software = No game. Their time is "free", as in they are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, for which I thank them every day in my prayers. They have their lives to live in RL (Working, Eating, Sleeping, taking care of their Family; even a new Family member in the case of one of them.). and still they find the time to work on a game FOR US to play in the (hopefully) near future.

Most MMOs that have lots of funding take upwards of 5 years to create and develop AND MILLIONS of dollars to do it. They have just over 1/2 million dollars. They may be able to equal all that a major endeavor can do! All in their spare time.

They have my utmost respect.

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Northie wrote:
Northie wrote:

It's very good that the game has fans who are enthusiastic about the progress but I was personally hoping for more polished stuff. Then again if the game has been in development only year and a half I guess that's to be expected. What concerns me more that you guys have only 1/3rd of your funds left after a single year. I mean are you planning to have the game out, polished, and profitable within a year or are you somehow planning to cut the license and other costs to 1/3rd - and even that would carry you guys only through the next year?
What happens if you run out of money?

Warning: Sheep quasi-rant. Long and moderately intense. There is no TL;DR.

Disclaimer 1: I cannot and do not attempt to speak from the project here, only as myself.

Disclaimer 2: I have never been a direct party to a significant amount of the discussion around this question, only the portions of that discussion that I directly initiated.

Disclaimer 3: Given that I am now *completely* out of any official loop (which is exactly as it should be given my status at this point), everything I say here should be construed as being spoken by a hopefully-to-be-player, nothing more.

Disclaimer 4: Some of what I have to say is somewhat... harsh. It should not be read as either trashing the company, or as discontent or regret. It is, rather, stepping back and expressing things from the closest I can come to "what my opinions would be if I were not interested in the project except in an impersonal sense". I'm quite certain bias remains even then.

Disclaimer 5: As always, *I could be wrong*. Dead wrong. Utterly, horribly, soul-crushingly wrong. So wrong that it has warped the universe around me into my own little reality bubble. *I* certainly don't think I am, but then, I wouldn't. So keep that in mind.

Disclaimer 6: At no point am I claiming dishonesty or misrepresentation by anyone. If you think you're reading that, go over it again. There is a difference between "what is said" and "what people often hear (because they want to)".

Those things disclaimed:

An absolutely fair question, but not one that can really be answered (meaningfully) except by something on the order of a policy statement from the leadership, for multiple reasons. Anything less official is pretty much just "something some of the project thinks might happen," at best.

Whether or not we will ever see such a statement, and if so when, is something that I have my personal thoughts (and very strong opinions) on, but "what has ever been promised overtly" is actually remarkably little, especially in the case of insolvency. What has been stated as an *intent* goes significantly further, but to be honest, I've been through the startup routine multiple times, and what the real world says is "intent alone rarely matters for much, even when the people running the company have the best intentions and ideals."

There is what is put down in black and white with a dotted line, and then there's... well, actually, that's pretty much it, right there. Anything else might as well not ever have been said, except for the purpose of "do you like what said?"

Because when failure does happen, then either you've had a solid exit strategy with clear conditions and trigger points for various contingencies kicking in which has been present since the start... or you don't. And if you don't, you generally find that somewhere (often *many* "somewhere"s) along the way things got decided that may directly interfere with the ability to fulfill the intentions. Maybe a little, maybe a lot, sometimes enough to blow those intentions clean out of the water and into the next universe over.

On top of that, it is also generally the case that the exact folks who would have any chance of hammering through that set of problems are suddenly trying to keep the rest of the world from coming apart around them as well. Some of that is due to "no longer getting paid", but folks might be surprised just how much it happens even when the founders and/or head folks have other steady income, or are even independently wealthy.

Personally, I think it is entirely fair to expect folks to lay out such a plan. Triply so when dealing with something like Kickstarter, where a huge number of folks have minimal if any experience at running a corporation, being involved at the planning level for projects with a multi-year scope and significant budget, or most of the other things that any "real" investor would expect to see.

All of the "hard money" I invested into the project was "play money", money I could afford to spend on pure entertainment and the chance of getting a big (emotional) payoff in a long term sense. The time and effort factor is a very difficult (and generally very individual and personal) calculation. But as a "real" investment, risk-wise? So far, not a chance in hell. It might not even warrant a second look except out of curiosity.

However, in saying that, I have to also say that it is quite probably one of the points where I may have the *most* bias, and it almost certainly *isn't* in favor of the company: I have an in-depth and often very personal knowledge of two years worth of all of the problems. Well, maybe not *all*, but certainly "a lot" for social problems, and "damn near all" for technical ones. I not only know how the sausage is made, I know exactly what the cleaning schedule for the grinder is, how closely it is kept to, the concentration of bleach used, and in some cases the metallurgy of the thing and whether it reacts oddly with the bleach. I may even have been the person responsible for mixing the bleach on several occasions.

But I am also *incredibly* perfectionist about things. Ridiculously so (no, really; in one case at my day job an error rate of 1 in 100 million was not good enough for me, I hunted it down until I narrowed it to 1 in 1 billion and knew that the rest was *provably* impossible to avoid because it was a tiny error in how another system calculated something; our contracted accuracy was "plus or minus 2%"). So if I'm harsh, take that into account. Along with the fact that I *did* put a pretty non-trivial amount of my "play money" into it, simply for the chance that it might succeed, even if it was an incredibly long shot.

The things I want to see, I want to see because I believe that they are part of basically any sane business plan, and without one of those *any* business, no matter how good or bad it is otherwise, is basically doomed to failure. Sooner or later, but almost invariably "sooner".


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*scratches head at Sheep's

*scratches head at Sheep's answer* That was more elaborate than expected but I hope I got the gist of it.

As an unrelated note and the reason for my question was that it has always looked to me like the project seriously underestimates the costs even if there are no paid folks working on it. I'm honestly not at all surprised that the first year consumed 2/3rds of the funds. If anything I'm surprised it cost so little - even with the volunteers. You guys are creating a full fledged MMO after all and not a simple rogue-like so 680k seems very little. More closer to a single year (even without salaries to worry about) rather than entire development cycle.

I know this is again negative but I'm sort of wondering myself (without knowing the details of course) if the large volunteer based development team is more of a hindrance rather than a benefit. Especially if you still have to look into professional help.

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Wait, what?!?!? DSFH is

Wait, what?!?!? DSFH is leaving/has left??

Did I miss an announcement somewhere?

If not, why wasn't there an announcement somewhere? Not a gossipy he-said-she-said story; just a professional corporate "We're sorry to see x go and we wish them the best of luck."

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I'm having trouble keeping

I'm having trouble keeping track of who IS working for MWM, let alone who isn't ...


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Umm, I don't know what to

Umm, I don't know what to think of DeathSheeps post. It didn't really come off harsh but as a very elaborate opinion that was a less than stellar view of this project. I was hoping to read at least more of how this is a volunteer project and how far can you really expect to get when many are working after they get off from their real job. At a year and a half, you couldn't expect to see much from a fully funded company, now add in this project is 'just volunteers' and you need to throw many expectations out the window. Reading his post though, he has higher expectations despite the unconventional organization of this project.

If there was one thing I thought MWM had, it was a plan. Yikes! :(

Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I'm having trouble keeping track of who IS working for MWM, let alone who isn't ...

Methinks they need to be a faster removing/adding dev status on the forum.

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1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
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4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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And so we arrive at the first

And so we arrive at the first crisis point. As usual, it occurs at the two year mark or near it.

The key, of course, is what comes next. I remain, as always, cautiously optimistic. Of the three or four groups out there working on "spiritual successors", I still think this one has the best chance to succeed.

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Sheep has opinions. Sheep's

Sheep has opinions. Sheep's opinions are strong, and not entirely wrong.

I feel they're not entirely appropriate for the level of organization of the company.

It's one thing to expect detailed ten year plans from a government agency or Fortune 500 company, but smaller companies can't really spare the manpower, and a group of volunteers that spend as much effort as the Fortune 500 company generating the plan, will most probably fail to complete the plan as well as fail to produce anything.

Simpler plans and timelines are, therefore, appropriate. And they do exist for MWM. We couldn't have gotten that demo video out on time and schedule without them.

It's a balancing act.

Sheep is still working with us, mind you, on and off, but he's decided to step back from active engagement for various reasons, not least of which being his own health and sanity.

We're not at a crisis point, but we have a long list of tasks ahead of us, and we have to get them all done.

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Greyhawk
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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

We're not at a crisis point, but we have a long list of tasks ahead of us, and we have to get them all done.

That's a comfort! And one more reason this is the most likely candidate for success.

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

warcabbit wrote:
We're not at a crisis point, but we have a long list of tasks ahead of us, and we have to get them all done.

That's a comfort! And one more reason this is the most likely candidate for success.

Yeah, a company that can manage to complete tasks AND remain sane and healthy will last longer and be more effective.

Be Well!
Fireheart

sev171
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Greyhawk wrote:
warcabbit wrote:
We're not at a crisis point, but we have a long list of tasks ahead of us, and we have to get them all done.

That's a comfort! And one more reason this is the most likely candidate for success.

Yeah, a company that can manage to complete tasks AND remain sane and healthy will last longer and be more effective.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Sanity and health is for the weak.

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Thanks for the info on Sheep,

Thanks for the info on Sheep, Warcabbit. I'd always rather have knowns -- even bad knowns -- than unknowns.

Personally I'm not looking for MWM to reveal any particular plans -- as long as you guys have them yourselves, of course.

I suppose we players should keep in mind that this is not the first time a significant volunteer has had to step back/away from the project, and it hasn't meant the end of CoT. I do hope, however, when this sort of thing happens, that MWM takes the opportunity to examine the situation to see if there are lessons to be learned.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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OK. Let's just say that I'm

OK. Let's just say that I'm confident that MWM won't be running out of funds. I missed out on the kickstarter campaign because of some bad luck. There are people out here that would be more than willing to help our Devs get over any hump that might come up

MWM can TAIK MAI MUNEEZ NAO! anytime they think they need to ask for it. And I don't think I'm alone in this. We're a passionate fan base, and that means we're a giving fan base. Money. Toil. Time. Anything they could ask of me. Now, am I alone?

Lay your hands on me
While I'm bleeding dry
Break on through blue skies
And take it high

sev171
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HornetsNest wrote:
HornetsNest wrote:

OK. Let's just say that I'm confident that MWM won't be running out of funds. I missed out on the kickstarter campaign because of some bad luck. There are people out here that would be more than willing to help our Devs get over any hump that might come up
MWM can TAIK MAI MUNEEZ NAO! anytime they think they need to ask for it. And I don't think I'm alone in this. We're a passionate fan base, and that means we're a giving fan base. Money. Toil. Time. Anything they could ask of me. Now, am I alone?

Totally with you there.

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Cinnder, we always ask

Cinnder, we always ask ourselves what we have to learn from this. And we've improved, and we've made plans, and we're trying to keep them going.

Guys, we want your monies. We want all of them. But we don't want to just ask you for them when we don't have anything to show in turn, beyond the last demo. We're being thrifty, and we're building. Keep the faith, and we'll keep working hard.

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Er. Sorry, didn't mean to

Er. Sorry, didn't mean to startle folks. I guess the change in title wasn't quite obvious enough to convey things. In short, yes, for a variety of reasons, I have basically shifted from an active role in the project to more of an "available for consultation and brain-picking but not doing heavy lifting" role. A couple of months ago I had some moments that forced me to re-evaluate my balancing act between my day job, my family / home life, and the project, and concluded that I simply could not sustain a high enough level of contribution to be comfortable considering myself part of the project staff, without putting some other things at much higher risk than was acceptable. I learned, more than a decade ago, what happens if you don't do that (or at least, if I don't). The hard way. I try not to make the same mistakes twice, when I can. So effective April 9th of this year, I officially resigned my staff position on the project.

For those not familiar with what 'emeritus' means, it is a way of indicating that someone has done whatever it takes to merit a position, but does not have it for whatever reason (usually retirement, at least traditionally). Since there haven't been a lot of folks retiring from the project so far, sorting out the various things like formal title or having a way to mark it in the forums haven't really been done yet, which is why I still have the "redname" (I have no idea what will happen long term, that's a policy question).

However, I'm not "leaving" in the sense that folks often mean it -- first off, I'm still a backer and hope-to-be-player, so I'll be around in some form no matter what. And second, as noted, I'm still around with my lawn chair and cane to wave at the kids and tell them to get off my lawn. Er. To consult about design intentions of systems, the concepts underlying various things I pushed or recommended, and so on. In point of fact, there's still at least one major system that is taking a while to hand off properly, but it isn't a high-impact thing, exactly -- just a very large and somewhat unwieldy thing.


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DeathSheepFromHell
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A clarification about plans,

A clarification about plans, et al:

Not all plans are created equal, and I can only say that anyone who thinks I've been asking for ten-year projections has... not received the things I have *intended* to say. On the other hand, the plans I *do* think should be showing up are ones that are fundamentals to every company, no matter how small -- even a single person. They are plans that should be in place before the company is even founded, ideally, in at least some medium-firm form, because they tell you a lot about whether the business can even be viable.

Beyond that? I do indeed have very different standards for what I expect in different contexts. The harsh context is an *investment* context: would I invest my money into the company as a long-term thing, expecting a return on that value. The evaluation for that is very, very different from "am I willing to throw money at a project on the off chance that it might work, even though it is a long shot?" The latter isn't investment capital, it is entertainment funds. You don't go to Vegas expecting to make a profit, you go for the entertainment, and if you're sane and want to not have crippling debt, you decide before hand how much you are willing to pay *for entertainment* and assuming you lose every cent of it. If you get back what you came with, that's a nice bonus, but you plan on getting back $0 of it.

So is the project worth it as entertainment? Yeah, even now, I would say it is -- up to a point, and that point is going to vary with the resources of whomever is thinking of throwing money at it. Is it a sound *business* risk for an investor? Not really, but I don't know that it ever really has been, either. Most folks have been fairly clear on the fact that it is a long shot, and always has been.

And yes, some of this factored into my decision to resign, but in terms of "cost / risk / benefit", most of it was in terms of cost having gone up far more rapidly than one could ever realistically expect the risk / benefit part to shift. The number of hours might not have changed, but the cost of those hours (to me) certainly did.


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Cinnder
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Completely understandable,

Completely understandable, DSFH. Your clarification is appreciated.

Glad you're still around for whenever a good cane-waving is required.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I know you forecast that

I know you forecast that Cassandra will be able to manage 100s of characters onscreen without trouble, but, for some odd reason, I don't believe this prediction.

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Cassandra being able to

Cassandra being able to manage hundreds of characters onscreen without trouble and CPUs/GPUs being able to handle hundreds of characters onscreen without trouble, even with Cassandra, are two very different things.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Cassandra being able to manage hundreds of characters onscreen without trouble and CPUs/GPUs being able to handle hundreds of characters onscreen without trouble, even with Cassandra, are two very different things.

I hope that wasn't prompted by my post, as I'm not making a serious point but referring to the Cassandra of Greek mythology...

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Judgement Dave wrote:

[

Judgement Dave wrote:

I know you forecast that Cassandra will be able to manage 100s of characters onscreen without trouble, but, for some odd reason, I don't believe this prediction.

Sadly, I had to look it up to get it but that was a good one!

"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."

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Judgement Dave wrote:
Judgement Dave wrote:

I know you forecast that Cassandra will be able to manage 100s of characters onscreen without trouble, but, for some odd reason, I don't believe this prediction.

*rimshot*

However, it does give me an opportunity to clarify something from the original post, that I've been asked about: it should reduce the load in terms of draw calls by at least an order of magnitude, on average. It *doesn't* reduce the number of polygons (that requires a combination of well-selected LODs, clever artists, and finding the right balance of detail vs. GPU cost), nor does it reduce the memory needed for handling textures.

What that really means, in practice, is that we can draw characters with a great deal of complexity in terms of body parts, for roughly the same "cost" that we would pay if they were the classic single-body shape that folks are used to. If your graphics card could handle 50 hand-created individual bodies, my best guess is that it should be able to handle somewhere between 40 and 55 bodies for that same cost, whereas without it, you'd probably start hitting significant issues somewhere in the range of 5-15 bodies. Or fewer, if you got sufficiently ridiculous with the number of parts you broke it up into.

All of the numbers above should be considered *extremely* rough estimates, based on a combination of information shared by Epic or their clients regarding costs for trying to do multi-part bodies, the core design of Cassandra, and what I have observed in the code. They are suitable only for "is the potential for gain high enough and/or probable enough" (there's that cost/benefit/risk analysis thing again) "that it is worth sinking resources into?" Or, in other words, "is it worth it to even bother trying to prototype it?" They *are not* "hard" numbers of any sort; getting the prototype functional was a requirement for even being able to *take* any of the measurements that would allow for that sort of analysis.


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Rolling a bit back to my

Rolling a bit back to my skepticism since I'm way too busy to properly keep track on things. First of all I honestly do hope COT succeeds as I've actually backed it despite not having the fancy icon so please don't take this personally even though it's a negative view. It's not meant to offend. It has more to do with my need to voice my concerns than need to take shots at the project.

I've followed a few volunteer projects and the issues with long term volunteer projects tend to be always the same: there's lack of cohesive leadership that firmly puts down the plans and the schedules. Instead there are usually independent groups which memberships are in constant flux as are the schedules. Part of the reason why there's no solid schedule and deadlines is because people can't truly commit to those full time. Everyone knows that even in companies where people work full time schedules often shift and overtime is common.

The fact that there are 100 or 200 or 300 volunteers doesn't help when the reality is that usually the folks who end up doing majority of the work are a fraction of that. There are some serious diminishing returns in work so the "real work force" with necessary skills and time usually ends up being around one tenth of the actual numbers while the resources are distributed to full group. When something happens that takes one of the experts away replacing them is a major hurdle. There is a reason why most people work just one job at a time, and let's face it, developing a game is a job.

Actually it's not *that* different from global companies. Every team tends to have key personnel who contribute in a major way and others who are not quite so talented or willing. Volunteer projects have the benefit of enthusiasm but unfortunately that is one of the first things to go when the harsh reality kicks in. Small task force type teams who have worked together for a long time tend to work efficiently. Large ones filled with part-time strangers not so much. It's going to take significantly more time to get anything out with a volunteer team while the costs accrue. There's definitely less bang for the buck than with a professional team.

Those are my primary concerns for the project. I was hoping you guys had figured out some way to actually make things more cost efficient but when I heard how much was spent and how much remains it seems the achieved savings are marginal.

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The impression I get from

The impression I get from your posts and especially your last paragraph in this post seems to be abut money. You are concerned that they have spent about $400,000 on software and hardware, correct?

Initial outlays in this type if project is ALWAYS front-end heavy. They have the tools they need. Barring unforeseen events/circumstances, Acts-of-God, the remainder of the money will probably last them quite a while.

Another point you have made is about Leadership and cohesiveness. I get that , I really do. I've worked on large projects with experienced leaders and seen first hand how even with a leader on the spot, something gets lost. This team of volunteers is scattered across the country, working from various locations, Home mostly, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that some of them are "sneaking" in time whilst at work as well. In a situation like that you do need a strong leader, one who can work with the team to establish realistic goals and timelines.

So far, it looks like they are managing to do that quite well. I'm impressed with what they have managed to put out with the setbacks they have had to go through since this project began:
1. A major change in Leadership
2. A major shift in the company they have formed.
3. An even larger change in the software engine they have switched to
4. ???

I have faith, I think you should find it in yourself to do the same. I know that you WANT to believe, evidenced by the fact that you have contributed to the project. Sit back, enjoy the wins that they are showing us, be concerned about the set-backs they will most likely suffer again, and rejoice when they manage to overcome them.

[/em Preachers Voice] BELIEVE BROTHER!!! [/em Preachers Voice] :D

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Very nice...,

Very nice...,

- ...and being built with the UE4 platform...let's talk Mayhem Missions. *evil grin* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ztQX0C4wTE

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Q:

Q:
What's the Giant Monster we have to fight this time?

A:
A Skyscraper. And there's a timer we need to beat for bringing it all down ...

Welcome to playing Jenga as a Mayhem Mission. ^_~


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.

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