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Discuss: Never Let Them See You Sweat...

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warcabbit
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Discuss: Never Let Them See You Sweat...

Man, add-ons are tricky things. But we're making progress. Lanyards are out, shirts are out...
Talk about it here. We're listening.

Project Lead

Catalyst
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Take your time. You're

Take your time. You're correct in sticking to your own timetable and not giving in to pressure. You seem to be a genuine, hard-working, dedicated community and I'm sure I'm not alone in sending you the best, most peaceful, and most patient intentions I can muster. Everything will come together in good time.
To favorable winds at your back!

Von Krieger
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I have no idea if I ever

I have no idea if I ever allocated my rewards or not. I have no way to determine if I did after the store thingy closed down.

I've been trying to get in touch with people about this, using the contact form on the website, and I was talking to a member of the staff at one point.

But they left the project shortly after they began talking to me.

So at this point I have no idea if I ever got properly signed up for my rewards or not.

BIZZARO MEDIA FOLLOWER

Terwyn
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Send me an e-mail, and I'll

Send me an e-mail, and I'll help you look into it.

It is only when we stand up, with all our failings and sufferings, and try to support others rather than withdraw into ourselves, that we can fully live the life of community.

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Airhead
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I haven't asked earlier, as I

I haven't asked earlier, as I didn't want to further complicate the implementation of backer designs, but asking now:

I would be very happy to help in any way I can with my requests. I understand that I don't fully understand the requirements of efficient 3D models, on the other hand if there's lots of time I could be pointed at some references I will happily figure it out myself. Perhaps there's others feeling this way who could help each other along. Under the assumption that we can't ask any further for help, as that would defeat the purpose.

Just an idea for further free outsourcing :)

"The illusion which exalts us is dearer to us than ten thousand truths." - Pushkin
"One piece of flair is all I need." - Sister Silicon

whiteperegrine
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no worries, we got you all

no worries, we got you all covered...

:)

Nos482
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Dr. Tyche wrote:
Dr. Tyche wrote:

I take a breather, gather myself, put on the smile, and break a leg.

Whose?
Do you have like a schedule, or do you improvise?
WE WANT MORE DETAILS!!!!!

Harlequin565
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Since the shutdown I've

Since the shutdown I've floated across various MMOs and taken part in their communities and one thing I've noticed is that there always seems to be a huge pressure on the developers to deliver. Always will be.

The CoT attitude of engaging with the community in an open and honest way is really refreshing. For me - I have faith in this team. They're ex-COX players who were so naffed off that the game got shutdown, they decided to do it themselves. I did similar with an old Neverwinter Nights server I used to play on. Don't like it? Make your own!

The problem is that I went in with tons of enthusiasm and not much technical knowledge. I learnt though, and gathered a decent team, and after a year, we delivered what was *my* vision for how it "should be". We didn't have many players, and over time, managing it all became unsustainable, but it was a *huge* learning curve about managing a community & a dev team, a release schedule, fixing bugs, adding popular content... But above it all was setting expectations. If I knew we weren't going to deliver something - so did my players. They appreciated that. They had patience. They were *part* of that community and they helped out wherever they could (testing, marketing, or just supportive words in the forums). That - for me - was awesome.

Every post that comes out of the team is great. It still shows the passion the various areas have (art, story, technical) and gives me confidence that this will be something special when it hits the mainstream. Nothing good is ever rushed and having a community like this - prepared to wait for something special - is rare, and fostered in part due to the nature of the old community (nothing I've come across has beaten it yet), and also due to the attitude of the dev team at CoT of transparency, openness & honesty. If you can keep it up - it'll pay you back many times over.

We can wait.

RottenLuck
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So we have arrived at this

So we have arrived at this point. In every Hero story there a time when the pressure of being a Hero weighs down on them. When the stress of putting on the mask and fighting gnaws away at their soul. Seems this is that time for the MWM! Keep Calm and Fight on! Take your time to get it right we be right behind you supporting you every step of the way. For me and a few others you aren't just building a game, your building our MMO Home, it's good to get it right instead of getting it up fast.

Heroes never give up, Villains never surrender!

-------------------------------------------
Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP

Darth Fez
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Harlequin565 and RottenLuck

Harlequin565 and RottenLuck have hit the nail on the head so, what they said.

To quote a not entirely obscure author, "Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration."

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

Support trap clowns for CoT!

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Keep up the good work, we're

Keep up the good work, we're all just waiting for the best game to come out that you guys can make. Drink tea, say hello to your loved ones, we'll still be here.

ExoVrogne
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Do not let go guys.

Do not let go guys.
Activate the shields and patrol the city of Tytans, that's what I expected.

francophone community

TriNitroToluene
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To quote a Queen song "I want

To quote a Queen song "I want it all and I want it now."

Seriously, keep your chin up. We are all rooting for a great success. I can honestly say that I did not give for the add-ons. I gave because I wanted to help the game get made. Perks are great, but they don't compare to an actual game and community. If I have to wait for that to happen, then so be it.

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I can only ponder the kind of

I can only ponder the kind of stress the job MWM has taken on.

I have saved every newsletter/email you guys have sent. Was this last email, which was jumbled, copy-and-pasted, a vent to the community? No problem if it was! I don't know the magnitude of the pressure.

I'm a Kickstarter funder for the project and now I have no idea if I will even be granted the rewards with the new knowledge that vendors dropped out over the past two years.

Give us the game when you are ready, guys. You weren't in this to give us side dishes, anyway.

Baalumbral
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I hear ya on Kickstarter add

I hear ya on Kickstarter add-ons and can sympathize. You're wanting to make City of Titans then find yourself being pushed in the direction of t-shirt design & distribution. Those little side projects and tangents seem to creep into every job and cause constant irritation.

Having said that, those add-ons surely drove kickstarter pledges to higher amounts than you would have seen otherwise. Would the 36 backers who paid $1000 for the custom weapon/prop have pledged as much without that add-on? I kinda suspect not. Without the add-ons, the project update that spoke of the extra demands placed upon your artists might have been speaking of how there wasn't enough funds to buy the artists their software packages. Or there might not have even a project update at all if there wasn't enough kickstarter interest without the add-ons (I doubt this, but possible). Hindsight is always 20-20, the add-ons were a good call at the time, I still suspect they were a good call over the potential alternatives.

Hang in there. We're impatient but we're on your side!

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As others have said, we have

As others have said, we have your back. You are not building a game, you are building a new home for us all. We have given you a mighty task--you can lean on us too.
Relevant video: https://youtu.be/uH-8TDe5s-E

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I agree with Baalumbral and

I agree with Baalumbral and with the general sentiment expressed here. There has to be some correlation between Kickstarter add-ons and the funding you received to complete this project. And nowhere have I read or heard that you are failing to deliver on your Kickstarter promises (there are plenty of efforts that haven't measured up on that score). Given your business model, I'm sure I cannot even begin to fathom the issues going on behind the stage curtain. But I believe, by and large, you will find your audience here very supportive.

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I'm not worried or distressed

I'm not worried or distressed at any promises you may have failed to deliver as I figure that is mainly due to the MWM team being honest workers and caring about the product moreso than any pressure I could exert. I don't have any illusions about the small pittance we raised for you to create an MMO, so that you are still making progress is absolutely stunning when compared to many more fully funded projects. There are too many paid alphas as it is now so I don't want anything rushed until YOU think it is ready for the general public. Last, I'm just waiting for a donate button at the top of the page so I can continue to show my support beyond just words.

Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.

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"Good, Cheap, or Fast: Choose

"Good, Cheap, or Fast: Choose two."

Since not choosing Cheap wasn't even a viable option, that left Good and Fast to choose between. I hope MWM will always Choose Good. ^_^

BTW, like Airhead above, I have something that may be contributing to the Add-On backlog. If I knew which of the options I asked for in the Mogul Survey had been chosen, I could try to draft up some concept art...

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
Foradain's Character Conclave
Millennium City Refugee.
Avatar courtesy of Satellite9

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

BTW, like Airhead above, I have something that may be contributing to the Add-On backlog. If I knew which of the options I asked for in the Mogul Survey had been chosen, I could try to draft up some concept art...

So now we know it's all Foradain's fault why CoT isn't finished yet... j/k ;)

All kidding aside I suspected based on how MWM was offering the Mogul kickstarter option that they were going to get swamped (maybe even overwhelmed) trying to fulfill everyone's unique ideas. This is why I choose my Mogul to be a near exact copy of a famous real world building on the theory that the Devs could find hundreds of pics of it online to help them essentially duplicate it in the game. If what I did helps one of the artists save a few hours of time then alls the better. :)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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A boring short story by

A boring and pathetic (but true) short story by Empyrean:

Working title: Samuel Clemens

Late last night I sat alone before my desktop (yes I still have a desktop, shut up!) monitor. I was performing forlorn internet searches and sullen forum lurking regarding Champions Online, DCUO, TSW and maybe Skyforge? Hoping to see something, anything, that would entice me to take up one of them to fill my Superhero itch.

You see, I've lost weight, cut back on (no I didn't quit, shut up!) drinking, I have been eating healthy (blech!), and exercising (ugh!). I desperately, DESPERATELY!!! (OMG desperately), needed a vice that won't make me fat (all by itself, I don't eat Doritos and drink Gatorade while I play. I do sip Bulleit Rye. Sue me.). One vice, one beautiful vice, to ease the pain, and to throw overboard if things get truly desperate. But... nothing.

So I grit my teeth in abject hopelessness (emo drama, right?) that I'd be able to play a Superhero MMORPG that doesn't S U C K ! ! ! (and they do, oh, by all that's holy, they all suck).

And, even so, I want to say, take the time you need. Do it right. I'll be there. Till then, I'll be showing the sweat for you. Buckets.

(Emodrama bow, flipping my asymmetrically cut raven-black hair [which I don't have because I'm old and bald], Close curtain. Fade to black.).

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Coming out of my cave long

Coming out of my cave long enough to comment a bit.

Having been there for at least a substantial chunk of the discussions in question (often in the context of "are we sure enough that we can do that we can even have it as an option?"), as well as involved in organizing at least a portion of the work involved in delivering the add-ons, I actually have to disagree. At least partially.

From my perspective the pressure about add-ons was not external. Which may just mean that I wasn't the one hearing it — but it means my input was not due to external pressures. However, it was very clear at the time that Kickstarters that did not allow for some flexibility in the offerings did *much* worse, overall. It was also clear that there were a number of folks saying that they could give more but didn't much care about the next tier up in the primary tiers, and wondering if there would be alternatives. Okay, you might call that external, but *I* at least didn't take it as pressure, only "people would like it if we can do it and will live if we can't." Maybe I'm just more used to having to say "sorry, we can't do " as a regular part of my day job and thus feel less pressure.

But in an overall sense? I would argue that if we weren't ready to take on the add-ons, we weren't ready to be doing the Kickstarter in the first place. Now, to be clear: I'm not saying that we weren't. Or that we were. I'm only saying that *if* we weren't, it applied to both of them.

Why? For the simple reason that the exact same stuff happens even when you aren't dealing with add-ons. Yes, there's more things to go wrong, but at the sort of scale involved here that's pretty much a given. And yes, it was a trial by fire, but given how MWM came together and how it is organized, that was *also* a given.

Now, if we were talking about an established game studio with an experienced code team, an art team that already had a tool pipeline that had the bugs mostly shaken out, and all of that other stuff, I might see an argument about taking on things that weren't part of the "core competency". But MWM *had* no core competency as such, and in relative terms it had a lot more resources in terms of the "creative" side of the house than it did on the technical side. And in a normal company all of those tools are built *before* the creative side ever really gets to work. MWM didn't have the usual pre-production / production separation. That's part of why the add-ons are so heavily biased toward things that rely more on the folks who are normally the "production" side — otherwise they were going to be sitting idle while enough of the rest got built that they could actually do anything useful. And for a volunteer project, "sitting idle" translates to a very high attrition rate.

So while I could certainly see the argument that MWM might have bitten off more than it understood how to chew *well*, I think that that statement would have to be just as true of every *other* thing it bit off. And there was at least an understanding (or seemed to be?) that there were a whole lot of unknowns on all fronts.

I guess you could say that the upside to the whole thing is that MWM got tossed (well, threw itself) into the deep end, and it has not yet sunk, so by definition it is managing to swim. Or at least stay afloat, but I'd argue "swim" is more accurate. I can't say whether it is a doggie paddle or a side-stroke, although I'm pretty sure it isn't yet an Olympic-grade crawl. But flailing and trying to not drown progressed to treading water, and then to at least some amount of forward motion — things *have* been delivered, and more things are getting there.

The downside is that I would predict that there's going to be plenty of stress for a long while to come. For exactly the reasons I gave above: it isn't just add-ons that have stuff like this happen. I've often been the first to point out that you can't just "determinate" your way to success on a project like this. Gumption and pluck aren't *sufficient* — but they're pretty much a prerequisite. Having basics skills and the ability to improve them over time is fundamentally required. But MWM *does* have that, arguably in larger quantity than many companies. That includes "management" skills as well — addressing things like personality conflicts, availability of resources, dealing with outside vendors, and probably two dozen other things (at least).

In fact, if there were a single job I could pick to have filled "professionally" by MWM — if someone donated one full-time salary, ongoing, and said "fill one position" — it would be a good *office manager*. Not project lead, not CEO, not team lead, not a professional technical mentor for one of the teams (although that would be a close second), but someone who already had *and could teach* the crucial skills of day to day management. Because most other skills can, frankly, be learned "well enough to muddle through" from books, videos, tutorials, or one-shot low-cost courses. If you screw them up, you can get a "do-over", within reason — so practicing by trial and error is feasible. Management failures, even at the "bottom" of the ladder, can be far more profoundly destructive even with simple errors. And most "management books" are aimed at people who already have those skills and want to become *upper* management.

That MWM has survived this long says that either it is learning, or it is managing to shake out the folks who don't know *and* can't (or won't) learn. It isn't a pleasant process, but it is a productive one, when it works.

TL;DR: I disagree that doing the add-ons was a bad choice; it was a calculated risk that has come with a higher cost than *hoped*, but not outright failure, and in theory that was planned for as a possibility. As long as MWM is taking it as a learning opportunity, it is not time wasted, even from the perspective of "building the game," because the majority lessons apply just as much to the rest of the work.


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DeathSheepFromHell
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Secondary thought:

Secondary thought:

One of the struggles that was going on, and that I suspect is still going on from the descriptions of various things, boils down to "figuring out how to scale things up so that they can handle how much we actually have to deal with". Huge numbers of mogul buildings is one bit, but I know for a fact that there are other high-count items that are more numerous, if *somewhat* less high-cost individually.

I know things are being developed in an iterative manner, but when you do that it is important to keep in mind that you aren't just building a prototype of "how can we do X?" (although that is sometimes the first generation), but "how can we do X in ways that scale up to the level that we need?" To pick on Moguls (because everyone else is), it isn't enough to have a single artist doing them, or even *all* artists working on specific ones but as individual things. You have to be building foundations that let you increase your leverage, until you reach the point that the resources you *have* can deliver on the work that has to be done, in a time frame that is sufficiently short that it is practical.

That's a very general statement, yes, but most of the things in it are variables. You plug in the values you do know (how many folks, at what skill level, for how long; how many moguls, at what complexity; target time-spent-working) and work backward until you know "how fast does one artist need to be able to build one mogul (in terms of hours spent)" plus "can we interleave mogul work while waiting on responses from the buyer" (or "can we get *all* of the information and approval up front", to which I can tell you now the answer is "no" because it *always* is).

That tells you how much leverage you need, which is also described as "when do you stop building tools and libraries and things to help you do work, and do the actual work?" True, it isn't really a "bright line" cutoff, especially in terms of libraries. But it gives you a ballpark. And *getting there* gives you a much better feel for how to tell some of those numbers, which is the reason you do prototyping in the first place.

Making things that scale well isn't easy. In fact, it is one of the hardest things you can have to do — I should know, much of my day job revolves around building and improving tools to make it *possible* to do jobs that still take months to complete in some cases. But that's "months" rather than "decades" because of the leverage. And when we get bigger jobs from customers, we often have to invest in our tools or develop new techniques, in order to be able to crunch through more data in less time. But for several years now that has been a stable "build it as needed" loop rather than a "come up to speed" loop. The tricks are entirely about "figure out how to get the next boost" and "when is it good enough to meet our current needs".

I'm pointing this out in no small part because *just* increasing people's skills is, like most other things, a game of diminishing returns. At some point further investment in that does not produce a useful return because something *else* is being the bottleneck. And while you don't have to be trying to *work* on the next bottleneck until it is no longer "next", and generally shouldn't be, it is useful to be aware of it because it often affects how you approach the current bottleneck.


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So, are we saying it's now

So, are we saying it's now 2017?

"TRUST ME."

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Gluke wrote:
Gluke wrote:

So, are we saying it's now 2017?

They're trying to make an MMO. And not just any old MMO, one that's actually good, something that most big-shot development companies can't even get right. We'll get it in 2017 if we're lucky. Just be patient, cause if they try to rush things it'll end up like Champions Online, and none of us want that to happen.

Darth Fez
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CoriSparks wrote:
CoriSparks wrote:

Gluke wrote:
So, are we saying it's now 2017?
They're trying to make an MMO. And not just any old MMO, one that's actually good, something that most big-shot development companies can't even get right. We'll get it in 2017 if we're lucky. Just be patient, cause if they try to rush things it'll end up like Champions Online, and none of us want that to happen.

+1

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

Support trap clowns for CoT!

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

CoriSparks wrote:
Gluke wrote:
So, are we saying it's now 2017?
They're trying to make an MMO. And not just any old MMO, one that's actually good, something that most big-shot development companies can't even get right. We'll get it in 2017 if we're lucky. Just be patient, cause if they try to rush things it'll end up like Champions Online, and none of us want that to happen.
+1

Word.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

warcabbit
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Now, guys, don't brew up kool

Now, guys, don't brew up kool-aid. We are not asking you to disbelieve your senses, or hope for an impossible future.

We are doing the best we can, and we are showing you real progress.

We will not stop. Good things _are_ happening, and the game is coming closer and closer to working.

Project Lead

Empyrean
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But we made Blue Raspberry

But we made Blue Raspberry Kool-Aid. Everybody loves Blue Rasberry!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Shadow Elusive
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Just no almonds please.

Just no almonds please.

--------------------------

Interior Map Lead and UI Designer
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I prefer peanuts.

I prefer peanuts.

Then I can pelt you guys with the shells. *grin*

Be Well!
Fireheart

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...Who puts almonds in Kool

...Who puts almonds in Kool-Aid?

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We have faith in you guys.

We have faith in you guys. *smiles with blue lips and tongue*

I think the people on this forum are very understanding. And we stress as much as you guys about things. (as evidenced by a certain thread about stars) And we stress about those things in hopes that we can come to a helpful conclusion so you don't have to stress about those same things. I've not seen anyone truly complain about the speed of progress. You are the smallest of indie teams starting from essentially nothing but a dream. A dream we all share. Part of the reason I started learning Unity is because I saw what you guys were doing. I don't expect to be able to help, but I saw you throw down your own gauntlet and decided I could take a crack at my own challenge.

Talk to us. I think there are some people out here that can help with any problems you are having. We are heroes, you only need to ask for help and we'll be there. Kool-aid in hand.

Empyrean
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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

We have faith in you guys. *smiles with blue lips and tongue*

HA! :D

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

DeathSheepFromHell
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Louis Garou wrote:
Louis Garou wrote:

...Who puts almonds in Kool-Aid?

Because I can't tell a straight line from a deadpan, and I've known folks who wouldn't have gotten the reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones


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Fireheart
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Some of us are too old!

Some of us are too old! *grin*

Be Well!
Fireheart

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As the owner of Vixen's Inc,

As the owner of Vixens' Incorporated, I really appreciate all you have done. I am sorry the Mogul work has been so much more bother than you had thought. Is Joerden Leigh still with you?

Let me echo others in saying that I would rather you delay things to get everything right than rush the matter... Take the time you need to get a decent game and get everything polished, and don't worry about other things.

PS: The Vixens' Inc. concept art is the desktop background on my computer, and I look at it every day.

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Now, guys, don't brew up kool-aid. We are not asking you to disbelieve your senses, or hope for an impossible future.
We are doing the best we can, and we are showing you real progress.
We will not stop. Good things _are_ happening, and the game is coming closer and closer to working.

Taking this as a good place to follow up: it appears that some folks (not including Warcabbit) seem to have read my posts as more negative than they were intended.

For context: my standards are high. Quite possibly excessively so, which is part of why I decided to stop commenting on things much; I decided that I wasn't able to give a fair evaluation, especially to the technical posts, because to me they were all "old news" almost by definition — part of my job was "trail-breaking" on that exact set of stuff.

I also am not one to mince words or break out the pom-poms. But in this case, the reason I pointed out several struggles was not to highlight the struggles, it was to highlight the fact that MWM *has* made it through them far enough that the progress on that struggle is visible to the outside world. Frankly, seeing *that* gives me a much larger boost to hope than most of the more glamorous posts. Because grand dreams aren't even worth a penny a dozen, much less a dime — but surviving the slings and arrows of fortune while working to turn a grand dream into more than *just* a dream is a whole lot rarer. Something that anyone who worked in the dot-com bubble can attest to very personally. But even outside of bubbles, the failure rate for small businesses in start-up mode isn't just "more than half", it is easily "most" and depending on you count it sometimes "the vast majority".

But if you narrow that to just those who manage to survive a couple of years into the process and producing *any* concrete results, the success rate rather dramatically improves. It isn't a given, but nobody at MWM seems to be taking it as one, either. And there *are* still plenty of struggles to overcome. But there's an old aphorism, attributed to various folks, that runs roughly:

Good judgement is the result of experience, but experience is the result of bad judgement.

I think it is actually slightly off, for the same reason I disagreed with the "it was a mistake" conclusion: experience can come from taking calculated risks and having them not pan out. Which *isn't* bad judgement as long as your risk assessment is sane and you can afford to take the chance. The difference between "a lack of success" and "failure" is whether you were so optimistic about the chances that you didn't account for something not working out.

So far MWM has not only accounted for it, but managed to get back up and go at it again. It *has* produced results, and I don't think Warcabbit is being idealistic / overly optimistic in saying that things are moving. More results will come. Whether they will come soon enough and well-done enough to work out in the long view is something that I can't even pretend to predict. I can *hope for* it, but not predict it.

But in the end? I put my money where my mouth was, way back when — just like most everyone else here — and I have no regrets about that decision. I may not seem like high praise, but… well, keep in mind that I've seen *some* of the moments when the company's position was the most precarious. And I'm saying it has made real, concrete progress from those points to where it is today. I can't say "it has weathered the worst" because I can't predict the future, but it certainly *has* weathered some nasty spots and come through more or less in one piece.

When "survival" at all puts you in the upper levels of "success as a company" when compared to your peers, saying you survived is a much bigger thing than it might seem.


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You guys have undertaken a

You guys have undertaken a mammoth task, one which all of your kick-start sponsors loved you for. You're giving us back a game that we lost, one which impressed upon all of us so much that we were willing to support you in any way we could.

You have my respect and love for that, always, no matter the delays, the issues. Understand like I do, these are all growing pains. As you get closer to a finished product you will all look back on it and laugh with a semi-cynical smile as you realise you're all a little more dark under the eyes - but it'll be done. All that effort, not gone to waste. But I do have news for you. The fight doesn't end there, you will have a community to actively look after, and they will have their opinions too.

Just remember, we love you for what you're doing, the massive task you've put upon yourselves - because those of us that were there in CoH know why you're doing it. To get back something which is taken from us unfairly.

Good luck to all of you, good health to all of you. May your kinetic defenders speed boost your coffee hand. May your Mind Control 'trollers assuage any doubts. May your empaths cast recovery aura and save that adrenaline boost for the real fight. And as always, may you keep on scrapping.

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I'm kind of late to this

I'm kind of late to this thread, but allow me to echo what the others have said in both our appreciation for the efforts you folks are making and our understanding of how difficult it must be at times. I think Sheep makes a good point: you may not have reached the goal yet, but the vast majority of start-up efforts never even make it this far, so you should be proud of what you've managed to achieve up till now -- and also simply the fact that you folks are still here working on this.

I can speak only for myself, but I would have no problem with your postponing KS rewards till after launch. I'd much rather have the vanilla game up and running sooner for everyone to enjoy than have you delay it in order to fulfil KS reward obligations. Besides, it would give us backers something extra to look forward to after we'll have been playing for a while.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I have full faith that you

I have full faith that you guys can push yourselves through these roughs. What I have seen so far has managed to impress me on so many levels and I have tried to follow multiple big time company MMOs ever since I left CoH years ago (which I highly regret by the way as by the time I got the itch to play it again it was gone). None of them have flat out impressed me as such an early stage. Not even Wildstar and I absolutely loved Wildstar (sad that the game had issues that I could not get past). I have never really found a game that caught the same feeling as CoH had up until I found City of Titans kickstarter via accident.

Formerly known as Bleddyn

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I've backed a few

I've backed a few Kickstarters that I've later regretted, but CoT isn't one of them. I backed CoT because I believed in the goal. I still do. I'm still excited when I see progress, and patient when I don't. I've got other things I can do in the meantime, but it's nice to know that CoT is slowly percolating. As long as the project keeps moving forward, even slowly, that's all to the good as far as I'm concerned.

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Thoughts:

Thoughts:
1. Keep up the good work.
2. I think I speak for everyone here that paid for a mogul perk when I say "Screw everyone ELSE'S Mogul, just build MINE first!" ;P (kidding...)
3. I personally can wait until after launch for the Mogul and the Lethal Weapon, and the Fashionista stuff, but then there is the issue that after launch, you'll be busy trying to roll out some new content in the next year that you'll want to get started on developing at that point too. So back-burner-ing that stuff only puts off more other stuff, ultimately. On the plus side, maybe by then you can hire enough full-time employees that you'll have the resources for it.
4. More money, if it were available, might allow you to hire things like administrative assistants and secretaries now, if nothing else, to help wrangle the volunteers, if that's legally possible. So there's that angle to the "let us donate again/more" idea that has been floated.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Nothing worth doing was ever

Nothing worth doing was ever easy. It'll get here.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

4. More money, if it were available, might allow you to hire things like administrative assistants and secretaries now, if nothing else, to help wrangle the volunteers, if that's legally possible. So there's that angle to the "let us donate again/more" idea that has been floated.

I'm not qualified to go into details around this, and even if I were it would probably be NDA fodder, but I can at least say that there are some *very* non-trivial issues around doing this that could easily turn into beartraps big enough to… well, let's just say it wouldn't be pretty.

Not to say that MWM can't, won't, or even shouldn't go there, at some point, but there are a whole bunch of reasons why doing so would need to be done very, very carefully, should it come to pass (and obviously at *some* point it presumably will, as things shift over from volunteers to paid employees… but that could well be quite a while yet, and last I knew probably would be).


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CoriSparks wrote:
CoriSparks wrote:

Gluke wrote:
So, are we saying it's now 2017?
They're trying to make an MMO. And not just any old MMO, one that's actually good, something that most big-shot development companies can't even get right. We'll get it in 2017 if we're lucky. Just be patient, cause if they try to rush things it'll end up like Champions Online, and none of us want that to happen.

I agree with you (even if I expect minimum 2018 if we're lucky, 2017 is totally impossible imho nor we should hope for the next year because it's not that far away and I want a great game), even the example is perfect and there are mmorpgs out there that are worse than Champions Online but still this last one was not enough compared to City of Heroes (mostly due to single-player style encouraged, while it was very difficult in release to even party with other peoples or find actually some mission to do togheter... which is the exact opposite of what City of Heroes did with Exemplar/Master thingy where EVERYBODY could play togheter and did, even without "guild/supregroup", even without friends, you joined the game with whoever you wanted and in any second you were in action with another 7 peoples showing their special powers and gameplay).

I would just add one thing. The two most important things (that must be on release) imho are:
1) The one I was speaking about: it must be a mmorpg not a single player. This is what City of Heroes got right and why the great community was formed. No limits (or few limits) to missions sharing and those must be difficult enough for large groups or adapt to the group size, also the more peoples play togheter, the more rewarded they must be. Do not encourage players to play alone because finding group is more difficult than the reward-advantage they get (if any).

2) Good Animations. The fun in a mmorpg where you farm enemies after enemies is the "show-off" of powers and animations (the exagerated ones must be few, or it won't make effect, but also the simple attacks/defense must resemble comics), the beauty of the action. City of Heroes (and Champions Online too) had great animations (even the simple superstrength punchs, I loved them, the slow basic ones more than the fast new ones).
Animations are important in super hero games since we grow up with comics and anime, we need visual fun even more compared to other mmorpgs.

Another little note (even if not important as the other two points that must absolutely be present), remember to add a spot for us to write the Hero story, the character's notes, that must be easily visible with right-click on the person, like it was in City of Heroes, that's a great part of the rpg and it's very simple to implement, it makes the difference (mmo / mmoRPG) for a little cost. My story in city of heroes was costantly readed by others and received comments while we were playing, do not think that players have changed, if the "roleplay" is fast, easy, peoples partecipate to it naturally, nothing was easier that right-click a person to see powers or badges etc. and discover the little story even casually (limit the lenght, so that peoples are forced to avoid writing an entire book, which would become uneffective and would teach other peoples to stop reading any kind of story after a while they see too long ones, force the users to summarize their hero concept and origins, the CoH lenght was perfect imho).

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i echo the sentiments poster

i echo the sentiments posted here earlier.
i much prefer that the team will do the job as best as they can for as long as it takes to make it right then rushing things and falling short.
i have complete faith in this team and all i've seen from them and heard so far only make me much more certain about my choice to back this game.
take your time and don't worry about us , we got your back for as long as you need it.
again i want to express my sincere thanks to all involved in this project for your hard work and the open and honest way your'e conducting yourself, it is not a trivial thing.
as others have so eloquently said, you are building here much much more then a game for us, your'e building a home for us, one i still miss deeply.

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Take your time. We are a very

Take your time. We are a very patient bunch and I'm very satisfied with everything you've shown me so far. Believe me, you have me in awe and I'm grateful that you're doing this. And doing it so well

Cheers!

Lay your hands on me
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Break on through blue skies
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It's better to under-promise

It's better to under-promise and over-deliver imo. You guys and gals are doing fantastic, I am in no hurry, I would much rather have something I love 5 years from now than something I don't care about now. I couldn't agree more with what @Geveo(post #42) said, I have done a few Kickstarter's and they have all been late, but all the others left a bitter taste in my mouth and they did not get nearly as much money as I gave to this project, yet I feel nothing but pride for this project, I am so happy to see what you are doing and the updates you give, keep up the great work!.

“Around here, however, we don't look backwards for very long. We keep moving forward, opening up new doors and doing new things, because we're curious...and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths.” - Disney

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Kiyori Anoyui
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One question I have is you

One question I have is you said the lanyards are out, I believe I opted for a Lanyard and have not received it or heard any word about it. How can I find out more about this? I also opted for a mouse pad as well.

Please don't take this as me being pushy or gimme gimme, I am just asking because I don't know how to access the store where I chose what items I want but I am pretty sure that is what I opted for. Again, I am in no hurry :)

P.S. Also, I have changed addresses since I ordered those items so if they are still in the process of being sent out is it possible to change the shipping address? My mom lives at the address that you should have so I would get the items either way but I just thought I would run it by you.

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Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

One question I have is you said the lanyards are out, I believe I opted for a Lanyard and have not received it or heard any word about it. How can I find out more about this? I also opted for a mouse pad as well.
Please don't take this as me being pushy or gimme gimme, I am just asking because I don't know how to access the store where I chose what items I want but I am pretty sure that is what I opted for. Again, I am in no hurry :)
P.S. Also, I have changed addresses since I ordered those items so if they are still in the process of being sent out is it possible to change the shipping address? My mom lives at the address that you should have so I would get the items either way but I just thought I would run it by you.

A lot of people who ordered Lanyards also ordered Badges or Mousepads, so we were planning on shipping all three at the same time.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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Awesome, sounds good to me!

Awesome, sounds good to me! Thanks for the prompt response :D

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Having opted for both Mogul

Having opted for both Mogul and Lethal Weapon, I own up to my share of the stress CoT devs are under. But I'm sure that when it's done, it'll be well worth the wait.

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Mendicant wrote:
Mendicant wrote:

Having opted for both Mogul and Lethal Weapon, I own up to my share of the stress CoT devs are under. But I'm sure that when it's done, it'll be well worth the wait.

I just heard the CoT Devs can only support X number of Moguls/Lethal Weapons for Launch Day and you're number X+1... Sorry...

p.s. Obviously j/k ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Mendicant wrote:
Having opted for both Mogul and Lethal Weapon, I own up to my share of the stress CoT devs are under. But I'm sure that when it's done, it'll be well worth the wait.
I just heard the CoT Devs can only support X number of Moguls/Lethal Weapons for Launch Day and you're number X+1... Sorry...
p.s. Obviously j/k ;)

If I can get them the day after Launch Day, I'll survive. ;)

Or maybe I can bribe my way further up the list with cookies. Devs like cookies.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

A boring and pathetic (but true) short story by Empyrean:
Working title: Samuel Clemens
Late last night I sat alone before my desktop (yes I still have a desktop, shut up!) monitor.

Who doesn't still have a desktop? I can't imagine life without mine.

Those who have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing. - John Cleese

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Emancipist wrote:
Emancipist wrote:

Who doesn't still have a desktop? I can't imagine life without mine.

Corporations as big as Micro$oft developed their "app-centric" Windows 8/10 OSs based on their working theory that most people in the next 5 or 10 years would only be using tablets/smart phones as their "computers" with the corresponding assumption that the "era of the bulky desktop" was essentially coming to an end.

Now like you I couldn't imagine not having "real machines" (a.k.a. desktops) to work with but apparently we're going to be the collective dinosaurs of the computer world (if we're not already considered that now). *shrugs*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Emancipist wrote:
Who doesn't still have a desktop? I can't imagine life without mine.
Corporations as big as Micro$oft developed their "app-centric" Windows 8/10 OSs based on their working theory that most people in the next 5 or 10 years would only be using tablets/smart phones as their "computers" with the corresponding assumption that the "era of the bulky desktop" was essentially coming to an end.
Now like you I couldn't imagine not having "real machines" (a.k.a. desktops) to work with but apparently we're going to be the collective dinosaurs of the computer world (if we're not already considered that now). *shrugs*

I remember the last couple of times some company decided that desktops were going away to be replaced by laptops, or thin clients, or web interfaces...somehow it never seems to work out that way.

Tablets can be handy (and even replace desktops for certain things), but I don't think desktops will ever completely go away.

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I love my man-cave desktop

I love my man-cave desktop with my big-ass monitor. I love being able to pull stuff out and upgrade piecemeal as desired. IF I could get a hold of a HUGE "desktop replacement" laptop that let me crack it open and replace at least most important components piecemeal, I'd consider it... but so far I'm still a desktop guy at heart.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I LIKE my real keyboard and

I LIKE my real keyboard and mouse. How am I supposed to use those without a Desk, on top of which to use them?

I have a great flip-phone, which is decidedly 'dumb', compared to anybody's 'smart-phone', but it's a damned good Phone! Which is what I bought it for. I don't care how 'smart' your phone is, it can't drive my large monitor, multi-task the several programs I have running, including game, internet, and music-player, nor deal with the 3-to-4-Hundred gigabytes of music on my drive. It can't display my stored movies at any reasonable size, nor show my books at a readable font-size.

I might be able to use a tablet to take notes at school, but it ALSO is not smart, fast, or large enough to actually 'compute' with and it makes a Lousy Phone!

So I'm keeping my 'dumb' phone and my big-ass desktop computer, because those other 'devices' simply can't do their jobs as well.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Trust me when I say they are

Trust me when I say they're going to have to pry my desktop(s) from my cold, dead fingers before I give them up for pretty much all the reasons that have been mentioned in the last few posts.

But there's all these silly people out there now with their smartphones superglued to their hands plugged into the facebook "matrix" for 12+ hours a day who don't really seem to care about doing any kind of "heavy computing" that would require the serious hardware a desktop provides. They also largely don't seem to care about storing all their personal files/data to the communal "cloud" so they don't need anything that has any serious physical storage. I'm not an anti-technology luddite by any stretch of the imagination but frankly the people who live on their smartphones and tablets might as well be the very embodiment of the zombie apocalypse because they're already "lost" to this world as far as I'm concerned.

Sadly I fear this is where most "computer users" these days are headed towards. Clearly those folks who bother to own home desktops today (which are big enough to have say several disk drives and/or serious GPUs) are becoming almost as rare as the home computer "hobbyists" of the late 70s/early 80s.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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i'm stuck with kissUI for

i'm stuck with kissUI for Unity3D ATM.

Call me when every TV like device (most devices with a display) can be used to remotely display/play my games from my smartphone, even if its streamed from a render farm of servers in the cloud. ;)

tvOS is looking good so far* (from Apple)
maybe Google will go a step further later, with a variation of chromeOS to directly integrate into most display devices? :|

I just want a my smart phone to double as a gamepad (the touch screen) and use it while on the road with 99% of the Hotel TV's. ;)
and play many of my Steam games that way. Consoles Be Gone! ;D

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Call me when every TV like device (most devices with a display) can be used to remotely display/play my games from my smartphone, even if its streamed from a render farm of servers in the cloud. ;)

Crazy-talk like this always reminds me of that classic ST:TNG episode "The Game" where these aliens try to take over Starfleet using these highly addictive Google Glass type devices that everyone gets hooked on. Do you really want to live in a world where your only hope is to have Wesley Crusher save you?!?!

I'm telling you the real life zombie apocalypse won't be caused by a Walking Dead type virus; it's going to be everyone hooked into the "matrix" via universal smartphone type devices. Let's all move to Canada before President Trump forces us to have the addictive thought-control hardware implanted directly into our heads...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Sadly I fear this is where most "computer users" these days are headed towards. Clearly those folks who bother to own home desktops today (which are big enough to have say several disk drives and/or serious GPUs) are becoming almost as rare as the home computer "hobbyists" of the late 70s/early 80s.

I don't see me ever giving up my desktop. I'm far too used to multiple monitors, serious CPU and RAM, and all the storage I can eat. Admittedly, my 17 TB NAS and 4 TB backup NAS might have something to do with that...

( A friend of mine pointed out that saying the sentence "I'll just boot up my backup NAS and mirror the data there." placed me firmly in the computer geek category. I don't disagree. )

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In superhero parlance, "I'm

In superhero parlance, "I'm with you till the end of the line"

I appreciate the dedication it takes as long as it takes

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I agree for now that I will

I agree for now that I will never give up my desktop PC. But maybe someday Google will have Supercomputers that allow everyone to remote to and use, kind of like the cloud. So for free you can use an adequate PC or for like $5 a month you can use a beast of a machine. That would be tempting.

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Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

I agree for now that I will never give up my desktop PC. But maybe someday Google will have Supercomputers that allow everyone to remote to and use, kind of like the cloud. So for free you can use an adequate PC or for like $5 a month you can use a beast of a machine. That would be tempting.

Oh obviously the technology will always improve and I'm not suggesting that the "traditional desktop" computer will always exist in its current form. I'm just making the point that all the people who are assuming that the "desktop is now dead" are simply jumping the gun a little too quickly. Case in point once "zip drives" hit the market (around the early 1990s) everyone assumed 3.5 inch floppy disks were instantly dead. Turns out people kept regularly using them well into the mid-00s.

Maybe in 10 or 20 years we'll all be using some version of the Oculus Rift plugged into a universal global wi-fi system so that we'll no longer need centralized "hardware boxes" in our homes. But until that day comes my desktops are not "dead" by any stretch of the imagination.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Kiyori Anoyui
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I get what you are saying

I get what you are saying Lothic and completely agree, the desktop generation is far from over, and I think we will see a lot of use out of Oculus and the likes of Microsoft's HoloLens. But VR and AR tech has a long way to go before it gets that mainstream.

As long as there are graphic intense games there will always be the "form" of the desktop.

The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One

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Talking computer, it's good,

Talking computer, it's good, but where is the update?? No news at all?...
OMG ! i'm addicted to YOU !

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I have waited for a Black

I have waited for a Black Widow movie. I have waited for Empire of the Sun's third album. I have waited for the sequel to Buckaroo Banzai.

I am a geek with obscure fandoms. I have learned the value of patience. I believe in this game as much as the other things. I can wait for this. And in the meantime, I can dream of my heroines and perhaps a few villainesses to tide me over.

Khione, Boreal Princess of Phantoms/The Riveter, Hammer of Liberty/Rosa Amarillo, Sweet Belle with a Six-Shooter

Magical Girl in a Marvel Comics World

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DeathSheepFromHell wrote:
DeathSheepFromHell wrote:

Louis Garou wrote:
...Who puts almonds in Kool-Aid?
Because I can't tell a straight line from a deadpan, and I've known folks who wouldn't have gotten the reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

I have literally been puzzled by this for weeks, until my friend told me a few hours ago, "Cyanide tastes like almonds, dude."

And now I know.

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Louis Garou wrote:
Louis Garou wrote:

DeathSheepFromHell wrote:
Louis Garou wrote:
...Who puts almonds in Kool-Aid?
Because I can't tell a straight line from a deadpan, and I've known folks who wouldn't have gotten the reference:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones
I have literally been puzzled by this for weeks, until my friend told me a few hours ago, "Cyanide tastes like almonds, dude."
And now I know.

Unless you're one of the 25% or so of the population who can't detect the almond smell/taste.

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Those people that can

Those people that can actually smell cyanide (the almond scent) are actually the minority. Something like 5% or less. It's a pretty rare genetic mutation from what I understand. Taste is a sense very closely linked to smell. So I imagine if you can smell cyanide then you'd probably taste it too, but if you can't smell it, you probably wouldn't taste it. Well you might taste something as it wrecks your nervous system. Maybe rainbows...Death Metal rainbows.

*sips Kool-aid, pinky out*

I think the closest thing we are going to get to a Black Widow movie is going to be the GITS movie. I thought it would be neat if they started doing some team-up movies. Black Widow and Hawkeye being my first pick. Though I guess we are getting Antman and Wasp eventually.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

I think the closest thing we are going to get to a Black Widow movie is going to be the GITS movie. I thought it would be neat if they started doing some team-up movies. Black Widow and Hawkeye being my first pick. Though I guess we are getting Antman and Wasp eventually.

I might suggest they are doing team up movies already. Cap 3 Civil War was really Cap/Iron Man. And isn't the Hulk going to be in the next Thor movie?

Good idea to me. Why just draw a hard line between "Avengers movies" and "solo movies"? Mix and match 'em.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

I think the closest thing we are going to get to a Black Widow movie is going to be the GITS movie. I thought it would be neat if they started doing some team-up movies. Black Widow and Hawkeye being my first pick. Though I guess we are getting Antman and Wasp eventually.

Kevin Feige has said very recently that he would love to do a Black Widow movie. And with the Inhumans movie put on the backburner for now there may be room. Consider that between the Wasp and Captain Marvel getting some screentime in 2018, Marvel wants to start getting their lady heroes on the big screen. The time could be ripe for Natasha Romanov to get her own flick.

And yes, if there ever was such a movie I would imagine she would have several supporting cast members - Hawkeye being an obvious choice, with the possibility of other cameos.

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Grimfox wrote:
I think the closest thing we are going to get to a Black Widow movie is going to be the GITS movie. I thought it would be neat if they started doing some team-up movies. Black Widow and Hawkeye being my first pick. Though I guess we are getting Antman and Wasp eventually.
Kevin Feige has said very recently that he would love to do a Black Widow movie. And with the Inhumans movie put on the backburner for now there may be room. Consider that between the Wasp and Captain Marvel getting some screentime in 2018, Marvel wants to start getting their lady heroes on the big screen. The time could be ripe for Natasha Romanov to get her own flick.
And yes, if there ever was such a movie I would imagine she would have several supporting cast members - Hawkeye being an obvious choice, with the possibility of other cameos.

I was going to say Cap would be a good choice but they did that with Cap 2 really. Those two have a lot of chemistry together.