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Discuss: Letter From Lockdown

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JWBullfrog
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Discuss: Letter From Lockdown

read the full letter here: https://cityoftitans.com/content/letter-lockdown

Feel free to comment below

MWM Editor- Public Relations Team Lead -All Purpose Frog

Wait until you see the... nope, that would ruin the surprise.

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Imagine that, some of the

Imagine that, some of the people who would otherwise be working on a game where players get to be heroes or villains, can't because they are too busy saving real people. ^_^

Take care, those of you who have to Go Out Into The World, and stay as safe as you can!

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
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Good to hear that there is

Good to hear that there is still some work being done.

Not so good to hear that the quarantine is affecting your lives in such a way. I hope the people that lost their jobs find employment soon. The quarantine can't last forever, hang in there!

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Over the past seven years I

Over the past seven years I have really grown to love you developers at MWM and the forummites who support the City of Titans project. I wish you well and hope for the best always. Stay safe.

"Many have passed me by. None have escaped my attention."

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Why am I not surprised.

Why am I not surprised. Honestly.

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Why am I not surprised. Honestly.

Pot, meet Kettle.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Why am I not surprised. Honestly.

Pot, meet Kettle.

Don’t think you’re using that right mate

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And now for something more

And now for something more constructive ... oddly.

I was in the process of downloading Unreal engine 4.24 this morning just to give it whirl after gorging on Unreal 4 tutorial videos for hours. And then I remembered that the CoT update was at 2 pm. So, I looked. And, wow, the update was mostly about 4.24. Just a coincidence? 'prolly

Many of you just want to see only results or just don't care but, trust me, there's a huge amount of potential in U4. MWM chose well. Quixel and their Megascan capability is now with Epic and the ease of use gets, well, easier with every iteration of U4. Each update gets MWM closer to realizing its goal.

Having said that, I would like MWM to give a few more morsels to us: an occasional screen shot on Instagram, a snapshot of the wip graphic, 'ya know something. Don Armstrong/ Artstrong is really the only thing going that we can visibly see and I eat it up. Thanks Don! And, I don't mean to leave anyone out but an outward facing presence would be welcomed. That has been said and again but I just wanted to say that out loud. I have mostly been quiet for years but I just had to say something.

And, thanks!

"Many have passed me by. None have escaped my attention."

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Kalideus wrote:
Kalideus wrote:

Having said that, I would like MWM to give a few more morsels to us: an occasional screen shot on Instagram, a snapshot of the wip graphic

You know, it's funny. The devs keep sharing screenshots back and forth of UI and things they're working on, and I sneak a peek- they have to keep stopping me from leaking that stuff here on the forums and the Discord.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:
Kalideus wrote:

Having said that, I would like MWM to give a few more morsels to us: an occasional screen shot on Instagram, a snapshot of the wip graphic

You know, it's funny. The devs keep sharing screenshots back and forth of UI and things they're working on, and I sneak a peek- they have to keep stopping me from leaking that stuff here on the forums and the Discord.

Based on your humorous admission that you're a borderline "information liability" for MWM as it is I'd seriously ask (as Kalideus did) why it would be such a bad thing to have more of that material periodically formatted and released for public consumption/comment.

Obviously certain WIP and/or proprietary data would likely need to be kept from being released until ready. But surely someone somewhere (like for instance you Mr. Supposed PR Team guy) could organize at least a pic or two every few weeks that would be "generic" enough to not be damaging to MWM's overall progress on CoT.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
warlocc wrote:
Kalideus wrote:

Having said that, I would like MWM to give a few more morsels to us: an occasional screen shot on Instagram, a snapshot of the wip graphic

You know, it's funny. The devs keep sharing screenshots back and forth of UI and things they're working on, and I sneak a peek- they have to keep stopping me from leaking that stuff here on the forums and the Discord.

Based on your humorous admission that you're a borderline "information liability" for MWM as it is I'd seriously ask (as Kalideus did) why it would be such a bad thing to have more of that material periodically formatted and released for public consumption/comment.

Obviously certain WIP and/or proprietary data would likely need to be kept from being released until ready. But surely someone somewhere (like for instance you Mr. Supposed PR Team guy) could organize at least a pic or two every few weeks that would be "generic" enough to not be damaging to MWM's overall progress on CoT.

I'll have to let someone else answer that- as much as I'd like to show stuff, I'm repeatedly told it's not ready yet.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:
Lothic wrote:
warlocc wrote:
Kalideus wrote:

Having said that, I would like MWM to give a few more morsels to us: an occasional screen shot on Instagram, a snapshot of the wip graphic

You know, it's funny. The devs keep sharing screenshots back and forth of UI and things they're working on, and I sneak a peek- they have to keep stopping me from leaking that stuff here on the forums and the Discord.

Based on your humorous admission that you're a borderline "information liability" for MWM as it is I'd seriously ask (as Kalideus did) why it would be such a bad thing to have more of that material periodically formatted and released for public consumption/comment.

Obviously certain WIP and/or proprietary data would likely need to be kept from being released until ready. But surely someone somewhere (like for instance you Mr. Supposed PR Team guy) could organize at least a pic or two every few weeks that would be "generic" enough to not be damaging to MWM's overall progress on CoT.

I'll have to let someone else answer that- as much as I'd like to show stuff, I'm repeatedly told it's not ready yet.

Yeah I get what you're saying. I'm simply saying MWM can't keep using the "we're not ready from prime time" mindset as a convenient excuse forever. At the very least you guys are going to have to start acting like a real game company if you ever want to be become a real game company in the long run.

The Catch-22 here is that while MWM shouldn't rush things out too soon I suspect the longer it takes you guys to "stand up" for real the harder it's going to be to make that transition. I strongly believe getting to the point where you can release regularly periodic updates will help MWM make that transition into becoming a real game company.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I was under the impression

I was under the impression that MWM had locked down their "final version" of UE.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

I was under the impression that MWM had locked down their "final version" of UE.

Every new update of the Unreal Engine is likely going to contain new improvements and features that would benefit what MWM is trying to do with CoT. But there has to be a point of diminishing returns where the development costs of constantly "reworking" CoT to account for the very latest UE update is actually NOT going to be worth the time and effort needed. This leads to the point about locking down a "final version" of UE for CoT and sticking to it.

Obviously as time goes on MWM will want to take advantage of significant UE updates. I'm not saying MWM should pick one version of UE and never update again. But there needs to be some thought given to what's more important right now - constantly conforming to the latest bleeding-edge revision of UE or actually getting some version of CoT launched. The compromise for getting CoT launched in a timely manner might mean MWM needs to pick a workable UE version and stick to it at least long enough to get CoT launched even if that means they must let their UE become "out of date" for some period of time.

It's wonderful that MWM has such a good working relationship with Unreal. But if MWM apparently suffers from so much "disruption" every time a new version of UE is released then one might question when CoT would ever get to a point where its baseline is static enough to be launched.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Continuing to update and

Continuing to update and delaying because the next version has new shinies is the definition of “feature creep”.

I get if you run into roadblocks and you know that the next version will fix them. And the letter pretty much stated that was the case. That seems sensible. But once the engine does what you need it’s imperative to use that and finish up.

I’m sure that’s MWM’s plan, I doubt they’re going to keep chasing the next version forever until CoT becomes vaporware.

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We did indeed have a previous

We did indeed have a previous version intended to be our final for launch. Then a couple of versions later, features were added that significantly reduced workload for us, or added a base functionality we were going to have to add on our own. And then other things broke.

We could have reverted back and have to do the tons of work to make what we needed, or, rely on the word from Epic that fixes in new versions were on the way. Along the way, new features were being added. Devs carefully tested to make sure nothing new broke with these new releases and indeed fixed what needed fixing.

Ultimately, we will must set a lock on any upgrades to get us to launch and then evaluate newer versions for possible future changes, which will take us longer and be more complicated to pull off. All which is to say, we will tread carefully before upgrading once we are running the game live.


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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

I’m sure that’s MWM’s plan, I doubt they’re going to keep chasing the next version forever until CoT becomes vaporware.

Tannim222 wrote:

We did indeed have a previous version intended to be our final for launch. Then a couple of versions later, features were added that significantly reduced workload for us, or added a base functionality we were going to have to add on our own. And then other things broke.

The decision when to "lock" things down like this is one of the most critical you can make on a software engineering project. I've been involved with dozens of scenarios like this throughout my career and have made decisions along these lines with millions of tax-paypayer dollars on the line. It's never easy and it's always a compromise between multiple concerns.

I guess all I can say is that it's good to see that the MWM Devs seem to understand that they can't just keep waiting for the next version of EU to solve all their problems - sooner or later they're just going to have to pull the trigger on something and trust that they've made the right decision based on the circumstances.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Same old excuses. I’m shocked

Same old excuses. I’m shocked more of you aren’t tired of this. How many Unreal Engine restarts are there going to be? How has being at home with more time to work on things somehow equated to LESS getting done?

I just don’t get it.

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Same old excuses. I’m shocked more of you aren’t tired of this. How many Unreal Engine restarts are there going to be? How has being at home with more time to work on things somehow equated to LESS getting done?

I just don’t get it.

Oh I've been "tired" of the delays for years now.

The whole reason I responded to these last few "UE update" posts is that I worry MWM is becoming too comfortable assuming the "next" UE update will continue to solve all their problems and keep adding 6-12 months to their development cycle every time they decide to fall back and redesign half the game each time. Sooner or later they need to be weened off the lure of periodic UE updates and just pick one to stick to.

But exactly what could either you or I do about this regardless? It's out of our hands no matter how they handle this.

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Same old excuses. I’m shocked more of you aren’t tired of this. How many Unreal Engine restarts are there going to be? How has being at home with more time to work on things somehow equated to LESS getting done?

I just don’t get it.

I’m guessing you didn’t read the update? Being at home doesn’t automatically mean more time to work on things. Not when you have kids at home that would normally be at school or out with friends or doing something else, and instead you have your hands full with them. (I deal with that myself.) Or people whose jobs were lost and are now focusing all their attention on trying to get a new job or do something else, anything to support themselves rather than volunteer to a game. Not everyone has the luxury of quarantine being a vacation. Some people who are considered “essential” even have more work now than ever; I’m one of those people and put in a lot of overtime lately.

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Same, as far as being

Same, as far as being essential. It's been... painful, setting up isolation hotels and the lot.

I'm not slowing down here, but just because there's less traffic on the road doesn't mean I have any _more_ time.

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Atama][quote=Zerohour wrote:
Atama wrote:

I’m guessing you didn’t read the update? Being at home doesn’t automatically mean more time to work on things. Not when you have kids at home that would normally be at school or out with friends or doing something else, and instead you have your hands full with them. (I deal with that myself.) Or people whose jobs were lost and are now focusing all their attention on trying to get a new job or do something else, anything to support themselves rather than volunteer to a game. Not everyone has the luxury of quarantine being a vacation. Some people who are considered “essential” even have more work now than ever; I’m one of those people and put in a lot of overtime lately.

I am also “essential”. Between working from home and having to go into work, I understand just fine how...trying...things can be with young children in the home that don’t understand that being home doesn’t equate to being available. And I also understand what it’s like to have to devote some time to finding a new job. I have friends in that situation.

But there’s only so much applying online you can do. And you still get the same amount of time off that you would if you were just working as normal. There’s still weekends.

Bottom line is there comes a point in time when maybe there has to be some kind of admittance that this project is more than they can handle. Because I feel that the setbacks and restarts that have happened over the last six years are happening a little too often to be seen as much more than awfully convenient excuses to not show progress. I mean really, how much more mileage can you squeeze out of the “it’s a volunteer project, give them a break.”

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

*snip* I mean really, how much more mileage can you squeeze out of the “it’s a volunteer project, give them a break.”

The pessimist in me feeds into this but, like most and probably even yourself, I really really want this project to succeed. Despite the complaints, I'm still going to support because I want to play this game. We atleast know its not vaporware...they've put the AB out there. That's something. But to answer your question...the real answer is there is no limit to the mileage that saying will be used for until the project either drops Issue #1 or officially ends. They continuously tell us even full games with hundreds of employees and all the money in the world as budget have taken longer...so by that math this could take another few decades and still be within the standard given their fraction of a volunteer/part-time work force. It's going to take 'x' number of man hours to build a game. If an established gaming compnay puts out 'y' number of hours a week...CoT devs maybe crank out 1/10th? 1/20th? of the hours needed. You can do the math from there. However, the reality is Issue #1 is not going to be comparable to, say, World of Warcraft at launch. It's just not, so it won't require as many hours. It's going to take an amazing Issue #1 launch and impressive, continual growth of the game from there to get the backing to eventually get the game to a point where it can be comparable to CoH and other games created with a sizeable team and funding.

And I'll just reiterate for all the people that I know are going to jump at me for saying this...this is NOT a stab of CoT. They are working with what they have and it will take the time it takes. I've never complained about that. I'm cool with it. I actually have more faith in the team now than I did at this point last year because they've actually released something. This might actually get finished...everyone should have a little more hope of that now.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Bottom line is there comes a point in time when maybe there has to be some kind of admittance that this project is more than they can handle. Because I feel that the setbacks and restarts that have happened over the last six years are happening a little too often to be seen as much more than awfully convenient excuses to not show progress. I mean really, how much more mileage can you squeeze out of the “it’s a volunteer project, give them a break.”

Absolutely, and that point in time is when the project folds because they can no longer work on it anymore.

I'm confident we will never see that point because they have made so much progress in the past year. Early 2019 I was a lot more pessimistic, but now that the AB is out and there is actually "something", it seems like the only reason to predict failure of the project now is if there is some kind of personal grudge against the project and/or developers.

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

*snip*...it seems like the only reason to predict failure of the project now is if there is some kind of personal grudge against the project and/or developers.

I can't speak for anyone else but I don't have a personal grudge at all. Maybe I'm just a little too realistic for my own good. I just personally think that over six years of development should have wielded far more than a 'meh' avatar builder.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:
Atama wrote:

*snip*...it seems like the only reason to predict failure of the project now is if there is some kind of personal grudge against the project and/or developers.

I can't speak for anyone else but I don't have a personal grudge at all. Maybe I'm just a little too realistic for my own good. I just personally think that over six years of development should have wielded far more than a 'meh' avatar builder.

But it has yielded (I think that’s the word you meant) more than the AB. Just because you aren’t able to play with it, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

5 years is typical for an MMO to develop in a professional studio with a huge budget; that’s how long WoW took. This project has neither. Other MMOs have taken longer; Darkfall Online took 8 years.

If you’re just griping that development has been slow, join the choir. I doubt anyone would contest that, not even the developers.

But declaring that the project can’t happen... Sorry, you absolutely have a grudge. Every post you’ve ever made is critical, usually beyond reason. You’re the only reason I’ve lamented the lack of an ignore feature. Criticism is fine, but trolling isn’t.

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Star Citizen has been in

Star Citizen has been in development for a similar amount of time, with a substantially higher budget. Still not complete game.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

Star Citizen has been in development for a similar amount of time, with a substantially higher budget. Still not complete game.

The fact that Star Citizen has raised over $250 million and has not yet produced a playable game is arguably a WORSE scenario than the one MWM finds itself in with CoT. At least MWM technically has the "excuse" that they're trying to make a game with what amounts to (in typical game development terms) no operating budget at all.

At this point what the heck is Star Citizen's excuse? For $250 million I'm quite sure I could have hired an excellent group of software guys/gals to make a computer game just for me that would do anything I wanted it to do. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Star Citizen is in feature

Star Citizen is in feature creep hell. That’s a game that will likely never be released, and if it ever does release it will be a shadow of what was promised. They keep adding more and more into it. If you consider City of Titans a project where you’re concerned that the developers bit off more than they can chew, Star Citizen is a project where not only can they not chew what’s bit off, they keep going back to the buffet to load up over and over.

It’s a cautionary tale. I don’t point to that project to show that CoT isn’t so bad comparatively, I point to it as a warning of what could happen if they keep trying to do more without ever finishing what they’ve set out to do.

Fortunately, I don’t see that kind of hubris from MWM. I don’t recall any point where they’ve added features far beyond the original scope. On the contrary, the community here has made a lot of suggestions that developers have pushed back against because they want to see this reach release someday. Off the top of my head, I remember them rejecting stretching powers (too hard to get right technically) and a detailed “day job” or “alter ego” system (it would be like making another game within the game).

Still, until release there’s always the danger that it could happen. The AB is proof that progress is happening but it’s not an actual game yet. When we see a playable alpha or beta with a real game in it, then we can be more assured that release will happen. As I said before I’m very optimistic because after years of next to nothing, stuff is actually happening. It feels like the finish line is in sight (if just a speck on the horizon). Barring another major setback I feel good about things right now.

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Yeah I was vaguely aware of

Yeah I was actually aware of Star Citizen's feature creep death spiral. I almost threw some money at that project a few years ago but at the time I simply didn't quite get "hooked" enough to feel the need to dive into it supporter-wise. Perhaps that turned out for the best; I figure I can always jump on that bandwagon later if it ever does get going.

When you think about it Star Citizen might have been a victim of its own crowd-sourcing success - once people started giving them SO much money they lost all perspective of sticking to reasonable design limitations and didn't have the good sense to avoid the feature creep. Like you said it's a good object lesson.

Turns out there are now several other big open world space games on the horizon so if Star Citizen doesn't get its act together it might be left in the dust of games that actually do get launched.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Let's try to bring it back to

Let's try to bring it back to the topic of the update: progress is being made despite the *gestures out window* :)


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DesViper wrote:
DesViper wrote:

Let's try to bring it back to the topic of the update: progress is being made despite the *gestures out window* :)

... Zombie Apocalypse.

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DesViper wrote:
DesViper wrote:

Let's try to bring it back to the topic of the update: progress is being made despite the *gestures out window* :)

I mean...it's still CoT related and basically the only discussion CoT-related being had on the website these days so i'd just let it play out...otherwise there won't be anything

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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Wait, gesturing out the

Wait, gesturing out the window will delay the release of CoT?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Wait, gesturing out the window will delay the release of CoT?

Hang on I didn't think we were permitted to have gests!

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Airhead wrote:
Airhead wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Wait, gesturing out the window will delay the release of CoT?

Hang on I didn't think we were permitted to have gests!

Beau Geste!

But it's not that funny?
Be Well!
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Beau Geste!

It seemed like the decent thing to do.

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Airhead wrote:
Airhead wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Beau Geste!

It seemed like the decent thing to do.

The decent thing is often worth doing. Even if you and your brothers all have to join the Legion.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

But declaring that the project can’t happen... Sorry, you absolutely have a grudge. Every post you’ve ever made is critical, usually beyond reason. You’re the only reason I’ve lamented the lack of an ignore feature. Criticism is fine, but trolling isn’t.

I didn't 'declare' anything. I just gave an opinion that there should be a point in time when they just give up. You think I want that? What exactly do you think I have a grudge about? My posts have only becoming increasingly critical over the years because I've been increasingly disappointed by the lack of forward progress. And the same excuses over and over and over again. Are we really at the point of society now where you're dying for an 'ignore' feature just so you can bury your head in the sand and pretend everything is okay? What is your problem with someone having a different opinion? I'm never rude, or personally attacking anyone, or using awful language to get my point across.

Disagreeing doesn't equal 'trolling'. Far too many people are far too willing to label opinions as such because its easier than having to think they might be wrong.

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

I didn't 'declare' anything. I just gave an opinion that there should be a point in time when they just give up. You think I want that? What exactly do you think I have a grudge about? My posts have only becoming increasingly critical over the years because I've been increasingly disappointed by the lack of forward progress. And the same excuses over and over and over again. Are we really at the point of society now where you're dying for an 'ignore' feature just so you can bury your head in the sand and pretend everything is okay? What is your problem with someone having a different opinion? I'm never rude, or personally attacking anyone, or using awful language to get my point across.

Disagreeing doesn't equal 'trolling'. Far too many people are far too willing to label opinions as such because its easier than having to think they might be wrong.

Why should there be a point in time when they just give up after they've already put so much work into this project, that doesn't make any sense at all. If anything the further they work on it the less likely they would want to give up on seeing it through. You just personally want to see it fail just so you can feel like you're in the right from throwing so much shade at the team. Sorry you see the facts behind why this project is taking awhile to get up and running as nothing more than excuses. Sadly you're impatience has caused you to develop a pessimistic outlook on things. Maybe it's time to take a step back and focus on other things in life that can help you regain a more positive attitude. You may think your words aren't coming off as rude just because how you choose to word things, but that's not always the case. This team of devs are something special for even attempting to make this game a reality, especially under the circumstances they're restrained to, and I'm sure they can do without the extra stress piled on from people telling them they should give up on their dream/passion.

Note: This is my opinion about you and the topic at hand. So by going off what you said, "What is your problem with someone having a different opinion?", you shouldn't have a problem with it.

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Cooltastic wrote:
Cooltastic wrote:

Why should there be a point in time when they just give up after they've already put so much work into this project, that doesn't make any sense at all. If anything the further they work on it the less likely they would want to give up on seeing it through. You just personally want to see it fail just so you can feel like you're in the right from throwing so much shade at the team. Sorry you see the facts behind why this project is taking awhile to get up and running as nothing more than excuses. Sadly you're impatience has caused you to develop a pessimistic outlook on things. Maybe it's time to take a step back and focus on other things in life that can help you regain a more positive attitude. You may think your words aren't coming off as rude just because how you choose to word things, but that's not always the case. This team of devs are something special for even attempting to make this game a reality, especially under the circumstances they're restrained to, and I'm sure they can do without the extra stress piled on from people telling them they should give up on their dream/passion.

Note: This is my opinion about you and the topic at hand. So by going off what you said, "What is your problem with someone having a different opinion?", you shouldn't have a problem with it.

As I'm sure you know, because I'm positive you've already done the research, many many Kickstarters fall through due to a variety of reasons, one of them being a project turns out to be more than said group can handle. As time goes on, I feel this is becoming one of them.

I do NOT want to see it fail, nor do I derive some sick sense of satisfaction from it. I do not want to see myself, nor others, lose the money the generously donated to this cause all those years ago, when the sting of losing City of Heroes was fresh and people were desperate for something to fill the void. I used to be as bright-eyed about this endeavor as the next person, but time goes by doesn't it? Promises weren't kept, deadlines were continuously pushed back, no real progress being shown from month to month...the snake oil lost its flavor to me. And the excitement is gone. I can feel it. It's the same few people posting all the time. Giving the same excuses for lack of progress, just like you've done in your post. Volunteer project or not, we are coming up on 7 YEARS. They are not building the next World of Warcraft. They are not trying to compete with Star Citizen. So trying to say "oh look at 'x' game, it took 8 years to make with a full-time team" is not a valid comparison.

They are only as restrained as they allow themselves to be. Especially these last couple of months, updates should be flying out. What else are people doing? Job searching? Most companies aren't even thinking about hiring right now. Essential services? Fine, there's still nights and weekends, same as always. 60 hour weeks? No one's forcing you to take that overtime. If something is a dream or a passion, you find ways to make it happen. You sacrifice. You don't blame the egg when its your fault the yolk broke.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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So, I'm going to step in here

So, I'm going to step in here and remind people to stay on topic.

I'm also going to say that there's been quite a bit of progress. Nobody's ready to show it, but they're still working hard with the time they have. Which, yes- is considerably less than a full studio (if they take 8 years to release a game, and we have half their staff, half their time, and none of their budget, how long should it take for us to release half a game? Coming up on 8 years? Hmmmmmm.)

I can also say that if you think that a global pandemic that's costing the lives of people's families means more free time for the survivors, well... I envy the simplicity of your life.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

So, I'm going to step in here and remind people to stay on topic.

I'm also going to say that there's been quite a bit of progress. Nobody's ready to show it, but they're still working hard with the time they have.

Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I think this is the problem a lot of people are having right now. All we're really being told is that things are moving forward, but nothings ready to be shown yet. It feels like we're stuck in neverending cycle of chicken & the egg. This started well before the current world situation, for me at least. I have no expectations of "extra" work being done right now as everyone has their own stuff to deal with and real life always comes first.

I love Artstrongs videos and seeing all the costume parts, but there is only so many times a person can run through the existing set of items.

Is there any updates to the progress graphic that was posted in September last year that can be shared?

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Rezelius wrote:
Rezelius wrote:
warlocc wrote:

So, I'm going to step in here and remind people to stay on topic.

I'm also going to say that there's been quite a bit of progress. Nobody's ready to show it, but they're still working hard with the time they have.

Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I think this is the problem a lot of people are having right now. All we're really being told is that things are moving forward, but nothings ready to be shown yet. It feels like we're stuck in neverending cycle of chicken & the egg. This started well before the current world situation, for me at least. I have no expectations of "extra" work being done right now as everyone has their own stuff to deal with and real life always comes first.

I love Artstrongs videos and seeing all the costume parts, but there is only so many times a person can run through the existing set of items.

Is there any updates to the progress graphic that was posted in September last year that can be shared?

<3

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Warlocc...i wish you guys had

Warlocc...i wish you guys had half the people and half the time. They have hundreds and MWM has maybe a few dozen...with far fewer in essential coding, VFX, etc, roles. So if MWM wants to continue to compare against games from established publishers, like WoW, then this game is going to take a few more decades. That's just math. There's no way you guys put it anywhere close to 1/2 the time as a studio, probably not even close to 1/10th the time. I'm not ragging on you guys...you're doing it for free (right now) and are putting in all the time you can. That's commendable to say the least. But facts are facts and time is definitely NOT on your side.

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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

Warlocc...i wish you guys had half the people and half the time. They have hundreds and MWM has maybe a few dozen...with far fewer in essential coding, VFX, etc, roles. So if MWM wants to continue to compare against games from established publishers, like WoW, then this game is going to take a few more decades. That's just math. There's no way you guys put it anywhere close to 1/2 the time as a studio, probably not even close to 1/10th the time. I'm not ragging on you guys...you're doing it for free (right now) and are putting in all the time you can. That's commendable to say the least. But facts are facts and time is definitely NOT on your side.

I know that death IRL can be a touchy subject especially while there's a very real pandemic on the loose. But as I've semi-jokingly said in other posts I've actually caught myself wondering if I'm going to get the chance to play CoT before I die. Not trying to be melodramatic about it - just realistic.

Turns out I'm going to be 50 in a few months and as clichés go I've started to think about my ultimate mortality on this dust-ball we call Earth. Thankfully I'm relatively healthy all things considered so I'm hoping to get at least a few more decades give or take. But to be blunt about it I'm more likely to drop dead tomorrow than say your average 20 or 30 year old. *shrugs*

So while imploring a bunch of software Devs to hurry up and finish their game because I might die before they finish it is fundamentally narcissistic I will point out that MWM has now spent close to SEVEN years on this project without an official launch yet. How many more years can any fan be expected to be reasonably patient?

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

Warlocc...i wish you guys had half the people and half the time. They have hundreds and MWM has maybe a few dozen...with far fewer in essential coding, VFX, etc, roles. So if MWM wants to continue to compare against games from established publishers, like WoW, then this game is going to take a few more decades. That's just math. There's no way you guys put it anywhere close to 1/2 the time as a studio, probably not even close to 1/10th the time. I'm not ragging on you guys...you're doing it for free (right now) and are putting in all the time you can. That's commendable to say the least. But facts are facts and time is definitely NOT on your side.

Decades is a bit hyperbolic. A studio will have core teams of 50-100 people for an MMO. WoW was made with a team of 50. Studio numbers can get inflated when you take into account customer support, internal IT, and office personnel. Many game stubs may also have multiple projects being worked on and can have teams split among them. AAA studios making co-op or single player games can have a 2-300 employees. That is because those games must be completed in anywhere from 1-2.5 years (depending on the game).

A good rule of thumb for an MMO is around 100 people, working full time for 5-7 years. With a cost of 10k per month per employee.

When warlocc said we have half the team size, working half the time, he was fairly accurate. But the math doesn’t work out to 1/2 the time of the studio. That would mean we were twice as fast. What I think you meant was it would take use twice the time..

Don’t forget, many MMO developers also make their own engines, or like in the case of STWOR, they heavily modified an engine (which was new at the time).

We have the benefit of using UE4 along with some tools we have purchased. While there have been learning curves, and things we have had to make and modify on our own, having the engine and tools has reduced the time requirement needed. The exact amount of which is rather difficult to place a specific value for.

I have my own, personal interpersonal of how much time we have saved, but I’d wager is not accurate and I wouldn’t provide it in order to not unintentionally mislead anyone.

I’ve been with the project as a fan, then brought on as a dev early on within the first year when we were using ue3. I have not been paid a penny for all thee hours I’ve put in. There have been many times my own wife has questioned my commitment to the game and I even as to take a few months off to focus on my family at one point.

I came back, and have stayed committed because I see how hard people are working. I once equated our effort to attempting to climb Mt. Everest with summer camping gear. It seems like an impossible task, but every year when I turn and look back, I can see the hills we have climbed, the crevices we got caught up in, and the times we fell and slid back down a slope.

But we continue to climb. I can be honest in my own assessment that we have made mistakes along the way. There have been times where I felt we could have done things very differently (whether those would have been better is up for debate). A lot of work is stuff that is done to make other stuff happen.

You can’t show that kind of work. It doesn’t look interesting, it doesn’t easily read (or view). It can take a lot of time to explain and can lead to misinterpretation and misunderstanding. A lot of what we have done is to help us it only get to launch, but will also help development post-launch and hopefully beyond.

But, when you get all that done, and pieces start coming together...the development quickens. And that is when you get to show off more of what is being done.


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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

So, I'm going to step in here and remind people to stay on topic.

I'm also going to say that there's been quite a bit of progress. Nobody's ready to show it, but they're still working hard with the time they have. Which, yes- is considerably less than a full studio (if they take 8 years to release a game, and we have half their staff, half their time, and none of their budget, how long should it take for us to release half a game? Coming up on 8 years? Hmmmmmm.)

I can also say that if you think that a global pandemic that's costing the lives of people's families means more free time for the survivors, well... I envy the simplicity of your life.

First of all, I really take issue with your implication that anything I'm saying has ANYTHING to do with people dying during a pandemic. Seems like a low blow to me, and completely unjustified in the context of this conversation. My rationale, which I feel was pretty clear, was that if anything, much of your dev team should be at home with a lot more free time to work on this project. Instead we get excuses how things have slowed down. It doesn't make sense.

Secondly, I don't know how much more mileage you expect to get from "we aren't ready to show our progress yet". This is consistently the line that is coughed out whenever anyone asks for visual proof of progress. It's always "things behind the scenes to make other things work". I mean, I remember a number of years ago we were getting videos of combat and very early previews of game areas. What's been going on since then?

Lothic wrote:

I know that death IRL can be a touchy subject especially while there's a very real pandemic on the loose. But as I've semi-jokingly said in other posts I've actually caught myself wondering if I'm going to get the chance to play CoT before I die. Not trying to be melodramatic about it - just realistic.

Turns out I'm going to be 50 in a few months and as clichés go I've started to think about my ultimate mortality on this dust-ball we call Earth. Thankfully I'm relatively healthy all things considered so I'm hoping to get at least a few more decades give or take. But to be blunt about it I'm more likely to drop dead tomorrow than say your average 20 or 30 year old. *shrugs*

So while imploring a bunch of software Devs to hurry up and finish their game because I might die before they finish it is fundamentally narcissistic I will point out that MWM has now spent close to SEVEN years on this project without an official launch yet. How many more years can any fan be expected to be reasonably patient?

This is exactly my point. I'm glad that I'm not the only one feeling this way. Just for context, I was 34 when I donated to this project. I remember saying to my then-girlfriend (who was just a few months pregnant) something along the lines of "wow, by the time this game comes out, our baby will be just getting ready to start school". This was based on initial promises of the launch dates. That kid is now 6, and starting grade 1 in the fall (hopefully) and besides a weak AB we are literally no closer. Reasonable patience is far more abundant around here than I would expect. MWM you should thank your lucky stars that for whatever reason, your supporters are not marching with fire and pitchforks by now.

Tannim222 wrote:

A lot of work is stuff that is done to make other stuff happen.

You can’t show that kind of work. It doesn’t look interesting, it doesn’t easily read (or view). It can take a lot of time to explain and can lead to misinterpretation and misunderstanding. A lot of what we have done is to help us it only get to launch, but will also help development post-launch and hopefully beyond.

But, when you get all that done, and pieces start coming together...the development quickens. And that is when you get to show off more of what is being done.

I remember, geez, 3-4 years ago a particular hurdle was reached and we were told this exact thing. "More videos are coming, you'll see our updates happen more often, we're really moving now." But it never happened. Why is this time any different?
This is what I'm saying. You've been spinning your wheels for years. Caught in this cycle of excuses, promising visual progress soon, then a system crashes or software needs to be updated and you're starting all over again. When is this going to stop?

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Zerohour- wrote:
Zerohour- wrote:

I remember, geez, 3-4 years ago a particular hurdle was reached and we were told this exact thing. "More videos are coming, you'll see our updates happen more often, we're really moving now." But it never happened. Why is this time any different?
This is what I'm saying. You've been spinning your wheels for years. Caught in this cycle of excuses, promising visual progress soon, then a system crashes or software needs to be updated and you're starting all over again. When is this going to stop?

First of all, I didn’t promise anything other than we are continuing to work. I did when the prices come together the development pace quickens.

No one is giving excuses. We had 2 major set backs, the change from UE3 to UE4 and when we lost our main server.

There have been times when we were working on something, only to have an engine update come along that provided what we were working on, natively within the engine so we updated accordingly. There were times where we had to go with a new update but the update came with bugs that we couldn’t fix so we had to wait on the big fixes to come through. Meanwhile work continued every time.

And we are far from perfect. His takes have been made. Many of us had to learn completely new skills, unlearn some things that were rather ingrained, and relearn things we haven’t done in a long time. There have been many stumbles along the way. You and others have called us out on them. And we are better for it.

Meanwhile, we have never stopped working. I know you can’t except that. But hey I guess the 8 hours I spent on Monday and the 6 I spent yesterday were me playing solitaire on my PC and pretending to work on something I’m not getting oof for.

This year will be 7 years since we completed the Kickstarter and switched to UE4. That’s the tail end of a standard studio development cycle this isn’t an excuse, but simple fact: we are far from a standard studio. To expect us to have, up until now to function like one would be silly to say the least.


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Did this guy even read the

Did this guy even read the Lockdown Letter? I'm not sure how he comes to the idea that people have all this extra free time because of the Pandemic. I for one have been as busy as ever with my job(in construction), I'm one of the lucky ones because nothing has changed for me. Others who have to work from home have had added complications tacked on to doing their jobs which takes more time out of their day, not less. So where is all this supposed extra free time coming from? I guess since he assume's everyone at MWM have been let go from their full time jobs it's save to say that is most likely the case for Zero(sorry to hear it, hope you find work soon.) Sure, you may not have the game you really want to play right now at the most opportune time to have it available(as you're always at home with nothing else to do), but there's plenty of other games out there to occupy your time. This game will come eventually, the team has given no legitimate reason to doubt them as of yet. Sure there have been setbacks, but everything keeps moving forward.

PS: Sorry if I was wrong about you getting let go from your job, guess that makes us both ass's. ;D

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

This year will be 7 years since we completed the Kickstarter and switched to UE4. That’s the tail end of a standard studio development cycle this isn’t an excuse, but simple fact: we are far from a standard studio. To expect us to have, up until now to function like one would be silly to say the least.

Given the circumstances of MWM's organization no one's saying you should have finished CoT any faster or even just as fast as a standard studio. To keep using that as a talking point IS silly to say the least. We all get it: MWM is not a standard game company yada-yada...

But given what we collectively know seven years into this project it seems as though having a game that you apparently expected from the beginning to take maybe 10, 12 or more years to finish is quite likely a development model that would plausibly strain even the most loyal of fans/backers. Maybe you're fine with a quixotic 10-12 year development cycle but I'm seriously wondering if anyone outside of MWM is.

Ironically I'm actually not doubting MWM's ability to eventually produce a game of some kind. I'm simply criticizing the party line that we should be blindly non-judgmental of a game that will be taking THAT LONG to finish.

To be perfectly frank what's been the most frustrating for me lately is the fact that you finally released an alpha version of the AB late last year and (apart from a couple of quick hotfixes) have not given it a significant update since. I'm a reasonable person - I don't expect to see constant daily or even weekly updates... but nearly half-a-year without anything new? Please tell me you are also -not- happy with that yourself.

All we need to see right now is occasional tangible progress. Again I'm not a raging idiot who expects CoT to be ready to be launched RITE NAOW!!!. If it's going to take a few more years then so be it. But surely you guys are far enough along that you can update the AB say every 6-8 weeks at the very least. A single new costume item, a new GUI button, some slider adjustments, anything. Show us even the smallest amount of continual progress and I suspect we'll all stop grumbling. It's really just that simple.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

All we need to see right now is occasional tangible progress.

If I am to be honest, I would be saying the same thing. No one that I know of on the team feels or thinks any differently.

And we are all keenly aware that the burden of proof is on us.


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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

My rationale, which I feel was pretty clear, was that if anything, much of your dev team should be at home with a lot more free time to work on this project.

update wrote:

Like many people around the world, some members of our development team have brought their real life jobs home with them. Working from home comes with it’s own set of challenges that vary by business. Our developers who are educators, for example, have had to devote extra time to setting up lesson plans, coursework packages and, in some cases, conducting real time lessons.

Because schools have closed and converted to online learning, our developers who have children are also faced with the daunting task of keeping them educated, as well as entertained and happy. Finding spare time to work on game development becomes a bit more challenging when the kids can (and will) find ways to take up that time.

Some of our development team work in essential services, and have discovered that the spare time they could have devoted to game development is needed more in the real world. In many different ways, they are fighting to save people, and we thank all of our team members who are working hard during this crisis.

So, while some may theoretically have more free time without time to commute or go to work at all, that time has often been sucked up by a more complicated homelife. Also, idk about many of you, but I know I'm suffering some of the psychological side effects of thousands of people dying every day due to a plague, "free time" is much less productive that it might otherwise be.

If you have criticism of our productivity and shown results before this calender year, please take it off this thread, which focuses on the changes during this worldwide situation.

Update: this thread continued to veare off-topic, so it has been locked.


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