Discuss: Law and the Superhero

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warcabbit
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Discuss: Law and the Superhero

Talk about our update about Titan City's laws on superheroes here!

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Excellent!

Excellent!

Glad to have AIko's legal status clarified ^_^

One presumes the "species" decisions also cover persons of extra-terrestrial or extra-dimensional origins, although the INS may be involved there as well.

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I'm not sure I get the point

I'm not sure I get the point of this "update"

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Background information.

Background information. There are many ways the U.S. government could have responded to the emergence of super-powered beings (see Marvel's Civil War storyline last decade for another example); this is how it happened in the Titanverse.

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Ah. So it's a fluff update

Ah. So it's a fluff update like the Gabby Cabbie ones.

I thought maybe it was something more important and I wasn't catching its meaning.

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So CoT has now become, CO?

So CoT has now become, CO? This one just feels terrible to me.

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It's not far different from

It's not far different from CoH. There was an entire branch of city government devoted to supers and you had to register to be a legal, active hero.

This update just spells out some of the background of the setting and how we are allowed to do what we do.

Excellent update folks, I love this kind of info.

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I also enjoy this kind of

I also enjoy this kind of information. I'm a big fan of world building.

This makes for great background information. I believe that should be the extent of it since I have absolutely no interest in seeing any kind of Titan City Legal scenario. Heroes are meant to be larger than life. That idea takes a serious kick in the splanch if there are instances of, "Great job, Captain Shield, although according to Article 3 (II) of the... Oh, and don't forget to fill out Form 32.4b for incidental damage to public property, Form 131-3 and Form B13 for damage to private property, and..."

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Is there a way to petition

Is there a way to petition the court? I find it contradictory to have to register certain super powers and abilities yet I am also protected from having to register as a superpowered being. How can you seperate the two? Wouldn't it be inherent that once I register a super power, that I am also registwering as a superpowered being? Or does the protection merely cover true identities?

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This kind of info sharing is

This kind of info sharing is better served as quest text or something you read after clicking on a plaque in the game. I don't see what good it's doing us to know so early on in the game development. I am *always* grateful for game updates but this one? Ehhhhh

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Dutch0524 wrote:
Dutch0524 wrote:

Is there a way to petition the court? I find it contradictory to have to register certain super powers and abilities yet I am also protected from having to register as a superpowered being. How can you seperate the two? Wouldn't it be inherent that once I register a super power, that I am also registwering as a superpowered being? Or does the protection merely cover true identities?

What it means is you can not force a person to register just for being a non base-line human. individuals who's powers are neither dangerous or intrusive are not required to register at all, and if you never use your power publicly you are not required to register even if it dangerous or intrusive.

Zerohour wrote:

This kind of info sharing is better served as quest text or something you read after clicking on a plaque in the game. I don't see what good it's doing us to know so early on in the game development. I am *always* grateful for game updates but this one? Ehhhhh

In order for that lore to show up on a plaque or in NPC dialog it needs to be written down first. The world building is an important part of the game development(especially so in an MMO), because how the world works directs a great deal of development, from story arcs, to NPC groups, even to game systems. You don't want to get all the mechanics working and then throw the lore together, they both need to be built at the same time.

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Well, is it a "done deal"

Well, is it a "done deal" decision or do they maybe want feedback on it? And, yes, CoH had much the same registration process as CO, they just didn't emphasize it as much.

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

This kind of info sharing is better served as quest text or something you read after clicking on a plaque in the game. I don't see what good it's doing us to know so early on in the game development. I am *always* grateful for game updates but this one? Ehhhhh

City of Heroes had a similar group of updates, as part of its background stories on the website. I rather enjoy knowing more about the legal basis of superheroes...

Dutch0524 wrote:

Is there a way to petition the court? I find it contradictory to have to register certain super powers and abilities yet I am also protected from having to register as a superpowered being. How can you seperate the two? Wouldn't it be inherent that once I register a super power, that I am also registwering as a superpowered being? Or does the protection merely cover true identities?

I was wondering about this too. Something like a gun registration makes sense - you don't have to register as a citizen, but once you get a gun you do. The problem is for powers that are clearly inherent - a person can always give up a gun, while someone with energy blasts from their hands can't claim they don't have them anymore, so they'll always be registered as a super powered person.

CoT wrote:

...powers whose use would constitute a noise or light complaint if used after 11 p.m.

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Very interesting, not as

Very interesting, not as shiny and exciting as a tech update, but I'm glad we're given this lore.
I also like the constitutionality of it, rather than a "Titan City Super Human Act of 19whatever"

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Hey gang! I wonder what

Hey gang! I wonder what kinds of powers wouldn't be considered dangerous or intrusive! Being a sentient animal sidekick with computer-assisted speech probably isn't dangerous or intrusive, but my telekinesis definitely is! Registering also gives me citizen rights!

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Minor point of correction

Minor point of correction since this is being presented as a legal document. The correct term for this purpose is 'sapient' and not 'sentient.' Sentient refers to any creature capable of perceiving its environment (ex. an earthworm is sentient) while sapient refers to creatures capable of human reason.

Sorry for the nitpick, but sloppy language in legal documents is the sort of thing that unscrupulous types would abuse to the fullest (imagine the lawsuits over the wrongful deaths of thousands of 'sentient beings' every time someone with earth control powers threw an hunk of ground filled with earthworms at a target).

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Rocket Cat wrote:
Rocket Cat wrote:

Hey gang! I wonder what kinds of powers wouldn't be considered dangerous or intrusive! Being a sentient animal sidekick with computer-assisted speech probably isn't dangerous or intrusive, but my telekinesis definitely is! Registering also gives me citizen rights!

While this doesn't address the question, since every available power set combination will presumably allow the character to solo it goes without saying that every PC hero will be registered.

Now, since there is a law element in the alignment system I presume there will be room for heroic characters who do not care to register themselves, no matter how dangerous or intrusive their powers.

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I always enjoy updates like

I always enjoy updates like this. Even a full-time studio is unlikely to have visible evidential progress to show on a weekly basis. While I appreciate all of the updates about the visual, mechanical, and design capabilities, the world of the game is what is important to me. These kinds of details help to further immerse us as players in the world of the game. In the end, is that not why most of us stuck with City of Heroes? It was visually outdated in a few ways, and we were privy to a few of the game's technical limitations, but the detail of the universe was extensive. In the end, I think that is what made City of Heroes last as long as it did, so I am 100% supportive of fleshing out these kinds of details.




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"I'm not sure I get the point

"I'm not sure I get the point of this "update""

I think that's an easy one - to foster discussion.

There are quite a few modern parallels to real life with these 'regulations.' hasn't anyone here stopped to think about or question some of the laws we live under? For example, the right to bear arms. And no, I'm not talking about being furry. That is a rather intimidating and controversial topic in and of itself. In the United States, there is an ongoing national conversation about the right of normal human beings to keep and bear arms. What kind of firearms are allowable? Are there valid limitations on their use? What about concealed weapon laws? The legal use of firearms is still being debated today.

The Federal Government heavily regulates the possession of machine guns. In many states in the U.S., you can openly carry a firearm in public, and without a concealed firearm permit. In other states, you cannot. Some states even banned concealed carry for a time. Some states have limits on the size of rifle magazines. In short: there are federal and state laws on firearms.

Now apply that line of thinking to super powers. Imagine taking the controversy of the 2nd Amendment and applying it to super powers, some of whcih could be considered weapons of mass destruction.

Interesting idea.

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Here's a question: If I have

Here's a question: If I have a device that allows me to transform into a superhuman, but otherwise I'm not superhuman, do I just register the device? Am I granted the ability to arrest when outside my transformation? :)

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PrinceAuryn wrote:
PrinceAuryn wrote:

Here's a question: If I have a device that allows me to transform into a superhuman, but otherwise I'm not superhuman, do I just register the device? Am I granted the ability to arrest when outside my transformation? :)

Maybe you wouldn't want to blow what we can assume is your "Secret Identity" by arresting someone when you're not transformed. ;)

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Is it me or does the whole

Is it me or does the whole "registered super beings are free to 'arrest' anyone they feel is a possible threat regardless of intent or proof" part seem really abusable?

Especially when 'arrest' normally means beating someone senseless till they are unconscious. It would feel like it is promoting vigilante revenge seekers or villains to go around attacking others and just claiming that there victims were dangerous and had to be 'arrested'. We don't need physical proof of wrong doing, and registered super beings are protected from civil suits as long as they are registered. So what are citizens or the police supposed to react in this type of system. It breeds animosity and frustration leaving people suspicious of heroes or worse xenophobic. This is even more true for those people who enjoy their privacy and stay out of the public eye. People fear what they don't understand or cannot control so those heroes who work from the shadows would be even more stigmatized by the populace.

Think Spider-Man and the Daily Bugle type thing.

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What made CoH last was the

What made CoH last was the costume creator and the number of power set options. It wouldn't matter how great the lore was if you had 2 outfits and 3 powers to choose from, would it?

And by the way, sentience is not something an earthworm has. Being sentient is the ability to have perception of your environment and who you are as an entity.

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Mysticsage wrote:
Mysticsage wrote:

Is it me or does the whole "registered super beings are free to 'arrest' anyone they feel is a possible threat regardless of intent or proof" part seem really abusable?

Could you point out where you got that quote?

The information that I see in the update is as follows:

"A: Whenever he has probable cause to believe the person has committed any felony or has committed a misdemeanor in his presence. “Probable cause” means more than mere suspicion but much less than certainty beyond a reasonable doubt."

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Quote:
Quote:

Titan City, of course, follows these laws and does not require universal registration.

This does not mesh with the further FAQs about registration because it's so loosely defined an open to interpretation. As Darth_Fez mentioned, it seems clear that in reality all player-heroes will have to be registered, leaves no room for the unregistered or really give any freedom of choice to play into hero or villain during gameplay.

Following this:

Quote:

“Dangerous” powers are anything that could be used as a deadly or dangerous weapon. This is broadly construed and includes items that are part of your body or training, such as the fists of martial artists.

So basically, "Congratulations Daniel-san on your green belt. You now have 30 days to register or you're in violation of the law." It gives a limiting double-edged sword for basic self-defense classes or anything that would be pursued for the art side of martial arts. The self-defense doesn't immediately give the ability to arrest a would-be attacker/mugger/sex-offender while the martial artist not only must register, but even if the skill is only trained for meditative or show.

I'm interpreting this overall two-sided description to mean there are multiple camps in politics. Some want to limit required registration and some want to push the boundary of how much forced registration can be done without violating supreme court precedent within the confines of Titan City. There are some notorious political hot-buttons in the current real-world climate that would correlate here. This could be a compelling plot driver. However, if this is the extent of the information on the political backstory for the registration mechanic, it feels like it's trying to compromise two camps and not really listening to either side's concerns. Ironically, that's probably the best and worst part about it's fictitious accuracy.

This also doesn't answer enough questions to me for how the registration mechanic will or should apply to villains. Villains wouldn't be so eager to comply with the reasons to register, either because they don't care or don't want it to connect to their identity.

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Good to see MWM is getting

Good to see MWM is getting good value from its lawyers. :)

I love lore updates. Except the Cabbie, I hate talkative drivers--I'm paying you to drive, so shut up and get me there.

Myself656 wrote:

Minor point of correction since this is being presented as a legal document. The correct term for this purpose is 'sapient' and not 'sentient.' Sentient refers to any creature capable of perceiving its environment (ex. an earthworm is sentient) while sapient refers to creatures capable of human reason.
Sorry for the nitpick, but sloppy language in legal documents is the sort of thing that unscrupulous types would abuse to the fullest (imagine the lawsuits over the wrongful deaths of thousands of 'sentient beings' every time someone with earth control powers threw an hunk of ground filled with earthworms at a target).

That nit bothered me too.

Although I wouldn't call an earthworm sentient. For better or worse, "sentient" has acquired a meaning beyond simple capability of perceiving its environment; that a sentient being must also have consciousness.

But the update makes clear exactly what they meant: "self-aware, can reason, and can communicate". This is what "sapient" means, and they should have used that. (Well, strictly speaking, "communication" isn't a necessary part of sapience, but it's impossible to display sapience without communication.)

Mysticsage wrote:

Is it me or does the whole "registered super beings are free to 'arrest' anyone they feel is a possible threat regardless of intent or proof" part seem really abusable?
Especially when 'arrest' normally means beating someone senseless till they are unconscious. It would feel like it is promoting vigilante revenge seekers or villains to go around attacking others and just claiming that there victims were dangerous and had to be 'arrested'. We don't need physical proof of wrong doing, and registered super beings are protected from civil suits as long as they are registered. So what are citizens or the police supposed to react in this type of system. It breeds animosity and frustration leaving people suspicious of heroes or worse xenophobic. This is even more true for those people who enjoy their privacy and stay out of the public eye. People fear what they don't understand or cannot control so those heroes who work from the shadows would be even more stigmatized by the populace.
Think Spider-Man and the Daily Bugle type thing.

Good point, but I think that's intended. Lore needs to open up storylines, and this update certainly does that. Some police and civilians may have resentment to superheroes, because of your explanation or something else. But others will admire superheroes, because they use their "legal" powers to help people.

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summer-heat wrote:
summer-heat wrote:

This also doesn't answer enough questions to me for how the registration mechanic will or should apply to villains. Villains wouldn't be so eager to comply with the reasons to register, either because they don't care or don't want it to connect to their identity.

I don't think this update is supposed to imply any sort of in-game mechanic. It's simply background info to attach stories too.

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

This kind of info sharing is better served as quest text or something you read after clicking on a plaque in the game. I don't see what good it's doing us to know so early on in the game development. I am *always* grateful for game updates but this one? Ehhhhh

There us role players who are already RPing in the City of Titan Universe so any Lore info we can get is a plus for us. This clears up a lot of questions. One example is how self aware robots or AIs are treated. Now we know if they are self aware they are protected as if they are Human. Same with any being that's self aware. Or that mutant turtle can't be treated as a monster in the sewer. It is considered to have the same rites as any citizen.

Story wise is affected greatly. A self aware robot wouldn't be rebelling because it sees itself as a slave fighting for freedom. It could be fighting against how machines in general are treated, but it wouldn't be treated as a slave itself. At least in the view of the law.

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summer-heat wrote:
summer-heat wrote:

Quote:
Titan City, of course, follows these laws and does not require universal registration.
This does not mesh with the further FAQs about registration because it's so loosely defined an open to interpretation. As Darth_Fez mentioned, it seems clear that in reality all player-heroes will have to be registered, leaves no room for the unregistered or really give any freedom of choice to play into hero or villain during gameplay.
Following this:
Quote:
“Dangerous” powers are anything that could be used as a deadly or dangerous weapon. This is broadly construed and includes items that are part of your body or training, such as the fists of martial artists.

So basically, "Congratulations Daniel-san on your green belt. You now have 30 days to register or you're in violation of the law." It gives a limiting double-edged sword for basic self-defense classes or anything that would be pursued for the art side of martial arts. The self-defense doesn't immediately give the ability to arrest a would-be attacker/mugger/sex-offender while the martial artist not only must register, but even if the skill is only trained for meditative or show.
I'm interpreting this overall two-sided description to mean there are multiple camps in politics. Some want to limit required registration and some want to push the boundary of how much forced registration can be done without violating supreme court precedent within the confines of Titan City. There are some notorious political hot-buttons in the current real-world climate that would correlate here. This could be a compelling plot driver. However, if this is the extent of the information on the political backstory for the registration mechanic, it feels like it's trying to compromise two camps and not really listening to either side's concerns. Ironically, that's probably the best and worst part about it's fictitious accuracy.
This also doesn't answer enough questions to me for how the registration mechanic will or should apply to villains. Villains wouldn't be so eager to comply with the reasons to register, either because they don't care or don't want it to connect to their identity.

Well, if you think about it, this would be an absolute nigtmare to try to deal within the real world, so lets cut the Dev's a little slack :P.

The govornment would DEFINITELY get involved with something this significant, and it quite possibly would not be handled well at all--at least at first.

It may not be possible or best for it to be fully fleshed out, and most assuredly EVERYONE will not be pleased with their decisions.

And in the end subtleties or things that are not addressed by or may not be possible in the game lore/mechanics (such as unregistered heroes) may have to be handled within roleplay.

Though of course its best if lore and mechanics can be made more rather than less accomidating--if possible. And, in creating lore, that which gives the most fun possibilities is as important of a consderation as what makes the most sense.

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summer-heat wrote:
summer-heat wrote:

Quote:
“Dangerous” powers are anything that could be used as a deadly or dangerous weapon. This is broadly construed and includes items that are part of your body or training, such as the fists of martial artists.

So basically, "Congratulations Daniel-san on your green belt. You now have 30 days to register or you're in violation of the law." It gives a limiting double-edged sword for basic self-defense classes or anything that would be pursued for the art side of martial arts. The self-defense doesn't immediately give the ability to arrest a would-be attacker/mugger/sex-offender while the martial artist not only must register, but even if the skill is only trained for meditative or show.

We're talking about superheroes, here. This is not Bruce Lee or even your average 8-year old black belt. These are folks who can demolish cars, walls, and potentially even bank vaults with their hands and feet. No amount of "wax on, wax off" is going to put the average person in that league.

Let's not try to twist this into something it isn't just to have a talking point, hmm?

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This is interesting to see

This is interesting to see how TCPD exists and gives a tangible feel of what being a citizen of Titan City means..

BUT

It does very little to expand on the social aspect of how society reacts to "titans".

I know a member of my SG will be happy that sentient robots have rights tho.. so there's that.

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#1: Yes, Sapient, not

#1: Yes, Sapient, not Sentient. The second word is often misused to mean the first. You got us.

#2: On the matter of WHEN and WHAT you have to register, note that there are two things.
A: You have to register WHEN
"Titan City law requires registration with the Department of Public Safety before using dangerous or intrusive powers in public for a non-emergency purpose and thirty days to register after using them in public for the first time for an emergency purpose. Initial manifestation counts as an “emergency purpose.” "

B: WHAT you have to register:
"“Dangerous” powers are anything that could be used as a deadly or dangerous weapon. This is broadly construed and includes items that are part of your body or training, such as the fists of martial artists.

“Intrusive” powers are those likely to interfere with the privacy or peace of ordinary, reasonable people. These include special senses, including extrasensory powers and telepathy, and powers whose use would constitute a noise or light complaint if used after 11 p.m."

So, you don't have to register dangerous powers until before you intend to use them for a non-emergency purpose, or until AFTER you use them for an emergency purpose.
And you don't have to register "able to hum at exactly 2600 hz" at all.

If you're putting on spandex, you better register. Or choose not to and deal when you get busted.
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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

What made CoH last was the costume creator and the number of power set options. It wouldn't matter how great the lore was if you had 2 outfits and 3 powers to choose from, would it?

Sure it would, the lore could keep me playing if it was engaging enough to ignore the limitations. What made city last was far more than just the costume creator and the power set options. It was an alchemy far greater than the sum of it's parts. I understand you are more interested in the other aspects of development, and that's fine, but don't assume lore is unimportant fluff that doesn't matter in the creation of an MMO.

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

Zerohour wrote:
What made CoH last was the costume creator and the number of power set options. It wouldn't matter how great the lore was if you had 2 outfits and 3 powers to choose from, would it?

Sure it would, the lore could keep me playing if it was engaging enough to ignore the limitations. What made city last was far more than just the costume creator and the power set options. It was an alchemy far greater than the sum of it's parts. I understand you are more interested in the other aspects of development, and that's fine, but don't assume lore is unimportant fluff that doesn't matter in the creation of an MMO.

+1 Syn and well said. There were some key things that were an essential part of the special constellation of CoH 's success, but everything matters.

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I liked this update much. I

I liked this update much. I would suggest to create some sort of book when you go register for the first time (after tutorial I suppose). The book could open just on the pages needed, giving the ability to the player to change page right/left and obviously also to jump this section entirely and go directly on registration confirmation.

You could make this happen after a tutorial "on the road" with the first "usage of our ability in public", or you could make this happen before everything else like if we already appeared in public and in the book we're actually selecting our powers (pages 60-135 of the book, selection of powers to register, again it's obvious the actual pages will be less). In this last situation the tutorial would be done directly on some police-department for superpowers training, so you learn how to use those (with some policeman that actually gives you suggestions based on previous experience with all the other superbeings and that sometime gives you some "compliment" or feels surprised by your ability, like if you're one of a kind and more than the others, maybe comparing your great potential with some iconic hero of the past or present).

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Thanks for the update Devs!

Thanks for the update Devs! I am looking forward to reading the updates about violence and honor.

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Thank you for this update.

Thank you for this update. As it happens, about a month ago, some friends and I were discussing this very thing, and it clears up -so- much that we had questions about! things like this -really- help me to create more full backgrounds for my characters, and I truly appreciate having this information before the game comes out to flesh out some things I've been trying to work around without knowing how you were going to handle this issue.

Thank you!

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

Zerohour wrote:
What made CoH last was the costume creator and the number of power set options. It wouldn't matter how great the lore was if you had 2 outfits and 3 powers to choose from, would it?

Sure it would, the lore could keep me playing if it was engaging enough to ignore the limitations. What made city last was far more than just the costume creator and the power set options. It was an alchemy far greater than the sum of it's parts. I understand you are more interested in the other aspects of development, and that's fine, but don't assume lore is unimportant fluff that doesn't matter in the creation of an MMO.

I understand what you are saying in the defence of lore being an integral part of the creation of an mmo. I'm not disputing that, nor do I find it uninteresting. I look forward to diving into the backstory of City of Titans. What I *am* saying is that, besides content patches, the lore doesn't change. The odd tidbit here and there could, depending on your class or power set, but fundamentally it will be the same for your first character or your tenth. If you've played World of Warcraft, or any other mmo really, you realize that you get to a point where you will do almost anything to skip those quests or levels that you've seen 20 times because you just don't care anymore.

When that happens, the only thing that keeps people playing are the choices - like appearance options and alternate powers, not lore.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Tam-Rael wrote:
Tam-Rael wrote:

It's not far different from CoH. There was an entire branch of city government devoted to supers and you had to register to be a legal, active hero.
This update just spells out some of the background of the setting and how we are allowed to do what we do.
Excellent update folks, I love this kind of info.

Yes, but I was hoping to get away from that. It does nothing but make it sound like "Hey hero! You're registered!" like CoH did and CO does still, which may be something some of us don't want our heroes to be. :/

My namesake for instance believes in justice, but knows just how bad the government is, the dirty things they do and the corruption in the ranks of the government and the law and wouldn't trust them to keep such details private and wouldn't want to register and I would hope not suffer through seeing dialogue that supports the idea that she did. :p

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

... Initial manifestation counts as an “emergency purpose.”...

This is confusing to me. Does this mean as soon as my powers are known I must register, even if they include "I can hum at exactly 2600 Hz"? Or does it concern violent and uncontrollable initial manifestations?

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Yes, but I was hoping to get away from that. It does nothing but make it sound like "Hey hero! You're registered!" like CoH did and CO does still, which may be something some of us don't want our heroes to be. :/
My namesake for instance believes in justice, but knows just how bad the government is, the dirty things they do and the corruption in the ranks of the government and the law and wouldn't trust them to keep such details private and wouldn't want to register and I would hope not suffer through seeing dialogue that supports the idea that she did. :p

One thing to notice is up towards the top, where it says:

Quote:

A Publication of the Titan City Department of Public Safety

Naturally, anything the government puts out will make it seem as if there's no question that this is how it works for everybody who isn't an evil wicked villain.

I'd like to suggest that registering be completely voluntary from the player's point of view, maybe with a radio button to select on character creation and an NPC at City Hall with whom to register later, and an anti-lawful adjustment on that alignment axis if it isn't checked.

Just be warned, citizens: Once the government knows you have powers, it's hard to get them to unknow it.

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

warcabbit wrote:
... Initial manifestation counts as an “emergency purpose.”...
This is confusing to me. Does this mean as soon as my powers are known I must register, even if they include "I can hum at exactly 2600 Hz"? Or does it concern violent and uncontrollable initial manifestations?

Initial manifestation of dangerous and/or intrusive powers is how I read it, so unless it's "I have the ability to hum at exactly 2600 Hz at a volume comparable to that of an F-35B taking off"....

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

syntaxerror37 wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

you realize that you get to a point where you will do almost anything to skip those quests or levels that you've seen 20 times because you just don't care anymore.


Someone should fix that.

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

What I *am* saying is that, besides content patches, the lore doesn't change. The odd tidbit here and there could, depending on your class or power set, but fundamentally it will be the same for your first character or your tenth. If you've played World of Warcraft, or any other mmo really, you realize that you get to a point where you will do almost anything to skip those quests or levels that you've seen 20 times because you just don't care anymore.
When that happens, the only thing that keeps people playing are the choices - like appearance options and alternate powers, not lore.

This sounds like a "to each his own" type scenario. Some players keep playing for the costume and power options/combinations, others keep playing for the different stories they want to play through and/or create. A good game has both.

Personally, I had both types. I had characters on whom I really would have liked to skip to level 30+ because my idea was not going to be fully realized until they had that sort of power. I also had characters that I deliberately took to level 15 exclusively via street sweeping and solo missions, because my idea started at the a "first time on the street" type of point.

Neither of the above are the "correct" nor only ways to go about it, just two examples. But I will say this: the latter type characters tended to last longer because there was a story being written. The former characters were very cool ideas but were, at the base level, fleeting "wouldn't it be cool if..." impulses. I didn't actually want that character, I just wanted to play around with the power set, in the outfit I had chosen. If there had been a "Straight to 50" button, I would have pressed it, had fun with it for a day or two, and then probably have ditched the character.

Choices will hook players, story can maintain them. There were a lot of players that would come back for a couple weeks every time a new power set hit or a new Issue (new choices) went live, because they wanted to play with the new thing. Then, a few weeks later, once said thing was no longer "new" they would leave. (I am not accusing anyone of being this type of fickle player, merely pointing out that they existed in decently sized numbers.)

There are a finite number of choices a game can offer, but a story in an open world game like an MMORPG is limited only by the player's imagination. When you combine choices available to players with a player's own story telling, that's when infinity is approached, and choices like the one outlined in this update ("legal" hero or illegal vigilante) only help that wonderful synergy.




A cold front is heading toward Titan City
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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Yes, but I was hoping to get away from that. It does nothing but make it sound like "Hey hero! You're registered!" like CoH did and CO does still, which may be something some of us don't want our heroes to be. :/
My namesake for instance believes in justice, but knows just how bad the government is, the dirty things they do and the corruption in the ranks of the government and the law and wouldn't trust them to keep such details private and wouldn't want to register and I would hope not suffer through seeing dialogue that supports the idea that she did. :p

One thing to notice is up towards the top, where it says:
Quote:
A Publication of the Titan City Department of Public Safety
Naturally, anything the government puts out will make it seem as if there's no question that this is how it works for everybody who isn't an evil wicked villain.
I'd like to suggest that registering be completely voluntary from the player's point of view, maybe with a radio button to select on character creation and an NPC at City Hall with whom to register later, and an anti-lawful adjustment on that alignment axis if it isn't checked.
Just be warned, citizens: Once the government knows you have powers, it's hard to get them to unknow it.

I was think there may be something akin to that with the alignment system. Now it feels like it's going to be a every hero is a registered hero

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I enjoy this kind of info

I enjoy this kind of info/update. For what its worth, I read it as "The law requires you to register within 30 days" rather than 'the game requires you to register at the end of character creation/the tutorial'. The law requires us not to own illegal weaponry or rob banks; which is why, of course, no one does.
Facetiousness/sarcasm aside, I see this legal framework as a multipurpose thing; it helps identify where you are on the hero-vigilante-villain grid, it is something a world with supers has to have and its a plot hook (even if just for RP rather than RP and missions).
Ok, it's not perfect. It has potentially abuseable loopholes. Most laws do. Its a function of the language they need to be written in, changing perceptions of legality and human, imperfect lawmakers.
What I didn't see is how/why it's revoked. Yes, it's implied; but that's all.
Anyway, my train ride to work is over. Laters!

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CoT does not have to have

CoT does not have to have this. DC doesn't have it. And when they give us assault rifles, side arms, flame throwers, rocket launcher...weapons not powers...people effectively own illegal firearms.

"What's your superpower?"
"I own a flame thrower and a rocket launcher."
"As...part of a mecha suit?"
"No. Just the weapons I carry around for every day use."
"Both are weapons illegal in the hands of any civilian."
"Why I'm registering to be a superhero."
"...yeah...no."

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

CoT does not have to have this. DC doesn't have it. And when they give us assault rifles, side arms, flame throwers, rocket launcher...weapons not powers...people effectively own illegal firearms.
"What's your superpower?"
"I own a flame thrower and a rocket launcher."
"As...part of a mecha suit?"
"No. Just the weapons I carry around for every day use."
"Both are weapons illegal in the hands of any civilian."
"Why I'm registering to be a superhero."
"...yeah...no."

I fail to see how that is supposedly a bad thing.

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Xnarl wrote:
Xnarl wrote:

Brand X wrote:
CoT does not have to have this. DC doesn't have it. And when they give us assault rifles, side arms, flame throwers, rocket launcher...weapons not powers...people effectively own illegal firearms.
"What's your superpower?"
"I own a flame thrower and a rocket launcher."
"As...part of a mecha suit?"
"No. Just the weapons I carry around for every day use."
"Both are weapons illegal in the hands of any civilian."
"Why I'm registering to be a superhero."
"...yeah...no."

I fail to see how that is supposedly a bad thing.

While it's true that some "superheroes" in comics use conventional military-styled weapons I'd rather CoT focus on being superpower oriented rather than "SWAT Team" oriented. I don't want guns to be so useful that effectively everyone would rather be packing than use their "actual" superpowers.

As far as this bit of CoT lore goes that'd allow "average NPC civilians" to get normally restricted weaponry just by declaring themselves to be superheroes I do think it's a little silly. There are some pretty good reasons why it's illegal for civilians in the real world to own tactical nukes or aircraft carriers. Despite those problems I'm just not going to let loopholes in fictional game laws bother me too much. I might create a character or two that'll "conform" to all of the game's lore but usually I'll make chracters that'll do their own thing regardless.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Excellent. Now about that

Excellent. Now about that Super Branch of the IRS...

What? You don't think they'd tax the hell out of us megalomaniacs? OH no... They'll send us to jail for tax evasion if we don't pay. I might be able to take on you heroes, but the IRS? NO THANK YOU.

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In this case, I have

In this case, I have misunderstood that particular post, seeing it in line with Brand X's (and others') hostility against the update: "Having to become a superhero to use military weapons is bad!",

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

CoT does not have to have this. DC doesn't have it. And when they give us assault rifles, side arms, flame throwers, rocket launcher...weapons not powers...people effectively own illegal firearms.
"What's your superpower?"
"I own a flame thrower and a rocket launcher."
"As...part of a mecha suit?"
"No. Just the weapons I carry around for every day use."
"Both are weapons illegal in the hands of any civilian."
"Why I'm registering to be a superhero."
"...yeah...no."

Actually, for the record, it is legal to own a flame thrower in the US. And Rocket Launchers too can be owned legally providing they do not have an active targeting system nor range of more than 50'. The rockets themselves can only have a payload you have a certificate for. A friend of mine used to have a rocket launcher w/ explosive head because he was certified to use explosives for demolitions. A heck of an ad campaign he used to be able to run.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Foradain wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Yes, but I was hoping to get away from that. It does nothing but make it sound like "Hey hero! You're registered!" like CoH did and CO does still, which may be something some of us don't want our heroes to be. :/
My namesake for instance believes in justice, but knows just how bad the government is, the dirty things they do and the corruption in the ranks of the government and the law and wouldn't trust them to keep such details private and wouldn't want to register and I would hope not suffer through seeing dialogue that supports the idea that she did. :p

One thing to notice is up towards the top, where it says:
Quote:
A Publication of the Titan City Department of Public Safety

Naturally, anything the government puts out will make it seem as if there's no question that this is how it works for everybody who isn't an evil wicked villain.
I'd like to suggest that registering be completely voluntary from the player's point of view, maybe with a radio button to select on character creation and an NPC at City Hall with whom to register later, and an anti-lawful adjustment on that alignment axis if it isn't checked.
Just be warned, citizens: Once the government knows you have powers, it's hard to get them to unknow it.

I was think there may be something akin to that with the alignment system. Now it feels like it's going to be a every hero is a registered hero

There is a reason we put "required to register" in there. Part of this update is not only to show how the law views powers, but to show one of the earliest choices you will make as part of the game. This is not a "you must register" but a "if you want to follow this path, you need to register." Remember that whole three-axis alignment system? This is the first choice for one of those axis, the law vs lawless.

You can be a hero without registering. Comic books are filled with heroes who rejected following the law. You can be a villain and registered. Comic books have plenty of folk who are little more than legalized thugs working for the government. This is just a choice to enable you to play the character you want to play.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

Excellent. Now about that Super Branch of the IRS...
What? You don't think they'd tax the hell out of us megalomaniacs? OH no... They'll send us to jail for tax evasion if we don't pay. I might be able to take on you heroes, but the IRS? NO THANK YOU.

Just gunna throw 2¢ in here and say how awesome the assault rifle was in CoH. It was a huge badass rifle w/ a flamethrower and grenade launcher AND multiple barrels.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Brand X wrote:
CoT does not have to have this. DC doesn't have it. And when they give us assault rifles, side arms, flame throwers, rocket launcher...weapons not powers...people effectively own illegal firearms.
"What's your superpower?"
"I own a flame thrower and a rocket launcher."
"As...part of a mecha suit?"
"No. Just the weapons I carry around for every day use."
"Both are weapons illegal in the hands of any civilian."
"Why I'm registering to be a superhero."
"...yeah...no."

Actually, for the record, it is legal to own a flame thrower in the US. And Rocket Launchers too can be owned legally providing they do not have an active targeting system nor range of more than 50'. The rockets themselves can only have a payload you have a certificate for. A friend of mine used to have a rocket launcher w/ explosive head because he was certified to use explosives for demolitions. A heck of an ad campaign he used to be able to run.

I imagine a lot of what you're talking about blurs the lines with "pyro technicians" who set up big firework displays or licensed demolition teams who work on bringing down old buildings. I think the core idea of it being generally illegal in the US for most average civilians to own things like functional M1-A1 battle tanks or even heavy machine guns still stands here.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
Brand X wrote:
CoT does not have to have this. DC doesn't have it. And when they give us assault rifles, side arms, flame throwers, rocket launcher...weapons not powers...people effectively own illegal firearms.
"What's your superpower?"
"I own a flame thrower and a rocket launcher."
"As...part of a mecha suit?"
"No. Just the weapons I carry around for every day use."
"Both are weapons illegal in the hands of any civilian."
"Why I'm registering to be a superhero."
"...yeah...no."

Actually, for the record, it is legal to own a flame thrower in the US. And Rocket Launchers too can be owned legally providing they do not have an active targeting system nor range of more than 50'. The rockets themselves can only have a payload you have a certificate for. A friend of mine used to have a rocket launcher w/ explosive head because he was certified to use explosives for demolitions. A heck of an ad campaign he used to be able to run.

I imagine a lot of what you're talking about blurs the lines with "pyro technicians" who set up big firework displays or licensed demolition teams who work on bringing down old buildings. I think the core idea of it being generally illegal in the US for most average civilians to own things like functional M1-A1 battle tanks or even heavy machine guns still stands here.

No, actually there is no law on the books to prevent private ownership of a flame thrower. One of the oddest bits of trivia I ever ran across.
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Media/Slideshow/2013/03/28/10-Weapons-You-Wont-Believe-Are-Legal

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OMG.. I want to have my first

OMG.. I want to have my first villain char be Second Amendman

He'll be a cold, dead, cowboy

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Brand X wrote:
CoT does not have to have this. DC doesn't have it. And when they give us assault rifles, side arms, flame throwers, rocket launcher...weapons not powers...people effectively own illegal firearms.
"What's your superpower?"
"I own a flame thrower and a rocket launcher."
"As...part of a mecha suit?"
"No. Just the weapons I carry around for every day use."
"Both are weapons illegal in the hands of any civilian."
"Why I'm registering to be a superhero."
"...yeah...no."

Actually, for the record, it is legal to own a flame thrower in the US. And Rocket Launchers too can be owned legally providing they do not have an active targeting system nor range of more than 50'. The rockets themselves can only have a payload you have a certificate for. A friend of mine used to have a rocket launcher w/ explosive head because he was certified to use explosives for demolitions. A heck of an ad campaign he used to be able to run.

I imagine a lot of what you're talking about blurs the lines with "pyro technicians" who set up big firework displays or licensed demolition teams who work on bringing down old buildings. I think the core idea of it being generally illegal in the US for most average civilians to own things like functional M1-A1 battle tanks or even heavy machine guns still stands here.

No, actually there is no law on the books to prevent private ownership of a flame thrower. One of the oddest bits of trivia I ever ran across.http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Media/Slideshow/2013/03/28/10-Weapons-You-...

I wasn't trying to deny what you were specifically saying about flamethrowers. Just making the point that they were just one example of literally hundreds of types of "questionable military-grade hardware" that most average citizens in the US cannot typically possess legally. Those other examples (heavy machine guns, RPGs, B-52s, etc.) would likely still far under whatever's being discussed here for CoT’s legal lore.

P.S. Even in states where it's not a misdemeanor to have an unlicensed flamethrower I would imagine that most police officers (or superheroes in CoT) would likely consider it instant "probable cause" if you were just merely walking down the street with one strapped to your back. Just saying. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

There is a reason we put "required to register" in there. Part of this update is not only to show how the law views powers, but to show one of the earliest choices you will make as part of the game. This is not a "you must register" but a "if you want to follow this path, you need to register." Remember that whole three-axis alignment system? This is the first choice for one of those axis, the law vs lawless.
You can be a hero without registering. Comic books are filled with heroes who rejected following the law. You can be a villain and registered. Comic books have plenty of folk who are little more than legalized thugs working for the government. This is just a choice to enable you to play the character you want to play.

This answers many unanswered questions I had! Awesome.

Also, I finally warped the legalese into something that I could understand regarding emergency purpose and the inital manifestations stuff:

From what I now understand, they're saying if you plan to use dangerous powers in public you must register. The emergency purpose and initial manifestation actually specifically EXCLUDES the incident where a power manifests at a school, a party, stadium, park, etc.

OTOH, if a dangerous or intrusive power is used as part of a magic show, said individual may still need to register since that is willful use in public.

Thank you Tyche and Warcabbit for further explaining some of the finer points of the legalese. This is definitely a backstory explanation I still look forward to seeing in the current mission arcs and mechanics.

“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams

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CoT is already awesome :D

CoT is already awesome :D

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

There is a reason we put "required to register" in there. Part of this update is not only to show how the law views powers, but to show one of the earliest choices you will make as part of the game. This is not a "you must register" but a "if you want to follow this path, you need to register." Remember that whole three-axis alignment system? This is the first choice for one of those axis, the law vs lawless.
You can be a hero without registering. Comic books are filled with heroes who rejected following the law. You can be a villain and registered. Comic books have plenty of folk who are little more than legalized thugs working for the government. This is just a choice to enable you to play the character you want to play.

Thank you for the explaination. This is one of those moments that I really MUST applaud.

Lore can exist and define the world around you without defining my character for me. She's a culmination of choices and it's great to see that the game will recognize her choices.

Keep up the amazing.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Foradain wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Yes, but I was hoping to get away from that. It does nothing but make it sound like "Hey hero! You're registered!" like CoH did and CO does still, which may be something some of us don't want our heroes to be. :/
My namesake for instance believes in justice, but knows just how bad the government is, the dirty things they do and the corruption in the ranks of the government and the law and wouldn't trust them to keep such details private and wouldn't want to register and I would hope not suffer through seeing dialogue that supports the idea that she did. :p

One thing to notice is up towards the top, where it says:
Quote:
A Publication of the Titan City Department of Public Safety

Naturally, anything the government puts out will make it seem as if there's no question that this is how it works for everybody who isn't an evil wicked villain.
I'd like to suggest that registering be completely voluntary from the player's point of view, maybe with a radio button to select on character creation and an NPC at City Hall with whom to register later, and an anti-lawful adjustment on that alignment axis if it isn't checked.
Just be warned, citizens: Once the government knows you have powers, it's hard to get them to unknow it.

I was think there may be something akin to that with the alignment system. Now it feels like it's going to be a every hero is a registered hero

There is a reason we put "required to register" in there. Part of this update is not only to show how the law views powers, but to show one of the earliest choices you will make as part of the game. This is not a "you must register" but a "if you want to follow this path, you need to register." Remember that whole three-axis alignment system? This is the first choice for one of those axis, the law vs lawless.
You can be a hero without registering. Comic books are filled with heroes who rejected following the law. You can be a villain and registered. Comic books have plenty of folk who are little more than legalized thugs working for the government. This is just a choice to enable you to play the character you want to play.

This is what I thought in the first place. In CoH, registering with the the City was rolled up in the sort of tutorial first few levels. In Praetoria, at the end of those levels you got a "loyalist" or "revolutionary" choice. If there is more than one choice point during the turorial in CoT, that would be great. So long as we're not stuck on rails beause of those initial choices. (It doesnt sound like that is the intention.)

What occurred to me was that if NOT registering was against the law, what is the official response when an un-registered super appears? Is it the defacto responsibility of the registered supers to arrest said person? Is there a non-super special forces branch specifically designated and equipped to deal with them? (Wasn't Longbow tasked with that in CoH?) Is there a covert organization or arm of that same bureau that investigates suspected supers who havent registered? Is that bureau honest? Corrupt? Where does Homeland Security stand on Super-powered foreign nationals?

There is some rich soil there for story arcs. Looking forward to it.

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I was under the impression

I was under the impression your three axes were given initial points at the creation, and that after that they moved in response to your choices.

This allows:
A) You to start wherever, rather than working your way to becoming a hero/villain/rogue/whatever.
B) Your story can match that you started as a hero/vill/rog/w.ever and progressed to become the most evil/powerful/influential/amazing vill/rog/hero/w.ever.
C) Makes neutrality as difficult as it should be.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Foradain wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Yes, but I was hoping to get away from that. It does nothing but make it sound like "Hey hero! You're registered!" like CoH did and CO does still, which may be something some of us don't want our heroes to be. :/
My namesake for instance believes in justice, but knows just how bad the government is, the dirty things they do and the corruption in the ranks of the government and the law and wouldn't trust them to keep such details private and wouldn't want to register and I would hope not suffer through seeing dialogue that supports the idea that she did. :p

One thing to notice is up towards the top, where it says:
Quote:
A Publication of the Titan City Department of Public Safety

Naturally, anything the government puts out will make it seem as if there's no question that this is how it works for everybody who isn't an evil wicked villain.
I'd like to suggest that registering be completely voluntary from the player's point of view, maybe with a radio button to select on character creation and an NPC at City Hall with whom to register later, and an anti-lawful adjustment on that alignment axis if it isn't checked.
Just be warned, citizens: Once the government knows you have powers, it's hard to get them to unknow it.

I was think there may be something akin to that with the alignment system. Now it feels like it's going to be a every hero is a registered hero

There is a reason we put "required to register" in there. Part of this update is not only to show how the law views powers, but to show one of the earliest choices you will make as part of the game. This is not a "you must register" but a "if you want to follow this path, you need to register." Remember that whole three-axis alignment system? This is the first choice for one of those axis, the law vs lawless.
You can be a hero without registering. Comic books are filled with heroes who rejected following the law. You can be a villain and registered. Comic books have plenty of folk who are little more than legalized thugs working for the government. This is just a choice to enable you to play the character you want to play.

Oooo...well this does sound better now. :)

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I was under the impression your three axes were given initial points at the creation, and that after that they moved in response to your choices.
This allows:
A) You to start wherever, rather than working your way to becoming a hero/villain/rogue/whatever.
B) Your story can match that you started as a hero/vill/rog/w.ever and progressed to become the most evil/powerful/influential/amazing vill/rog/hero/w.ever.
C) Makes neutrality as difficult as it should be.

Right. Your choices at the beginning (register/unregistered, kill/save, keep word/break oath) set your initial guidance but your choices from there on out will change your course.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

CoT is already awesome :D

+1

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Taking law class this

Taking law class this semester and I gotta say y'all did an awesome job with the legal jargon. Thought I was studying for a final lol

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This is great! I was already

This is great! I was already excited when it was mentioned that Titan City has so much more superpowered activity because of some legal issue, and now we have it! I'm very impressed you went into such detail to cover it. This is a huge improvement over the other game, which never actually laid out exactly why most of the entire world's superpowered individuals were crowded into the same city. It just introduced it that way, and never explained. This takes care of that perfectly, and since Massachusetts has more laws than any other state in the US, it also fits pretty well.

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Subjectivity wrote:
Subjectivity wrote:

This is a huge improvement over the other game, which never actually laid out exactly why most of the entire world's superpowered individuals were crowded into the same city. It just introduced it that way, and never explained.

Paragon City in the world of CoH was the largest city in the US, also it was the first place super-powered individuals appeared as crime fighters. These two thing are what led to it being super hero central. Truth be told, this could have been better communicated, but that's the lore reason.

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If you liked this update, be

If you liked this update, be sure to check out http://lawandthemultiverse.com/ for more legal fun.

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

If you liked this update, be sure to check out http://lawandthemultiverse.com/ for more legal fun.

God I'm glad a nerd is in charge! Or I should say nerds are in charge. It warms my heart and gives me hope :).

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I see a ton of good character

I see a ton of good character and writing material coming out of this. Lots of good mission content here too.

1) The young person who first realizes they have powers. Some pressure them to register, some to keep mum. The first part of the mission is a moralistic tale as the character tries to help the person decide. Of course, it ends with a fight as outsiders break in to try and kidnap the new super.

2) Mad scientist invents some gadget to help save people in a disaster and tries to patent it. Turns out that some obscure notation in the law means that he also has to register the prototype so he can field-test it.

3) Legal Eagle, the superhero turned attorney, specializes in super laws. He and his latest client are on the way to court when they're attacked.

The list goes on and on...

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Brand X wrote:
CoT does not have to have this. DC doesn't have it. And when they give us assault rifles, side arms, flame throwers, rocket launcher...weapons not powers...people effectively own illegal firearms.
"What's your superpower?"
"I own a flame thrower and a rocket launcher."
"As...part of a mecha suit?"
"No. Just the weapons I carry around for every day use."
"Both are weapons illegal in the hands of any civilian."
"Why I'm registering to be a superhero."
"...yeah...no."

Actually, for the record, it is legal to own a flame thrower in the US. And Rocket Launchers too can be owned legally providing they do not have an active targeting system nor range of more than 50'. The rockets themselves can only have a payload you have a certificate for. A friend of mine used to have a rocket launcher w/ explosive head because he was certified to use explosives for demolitions. A heck of an ad campaign he used to be able to run.

I imagine a lot of what you're talking about blurs the lines with "pyro technicians" who set up big firework displays or licensed demolition teams who work on bringing down old buildings. I think the core idea of it being generally illegal in the US for most average civilians to own things like functional M1-A1 battle tanks or even heavy machine guns still stands here.

No, actually there is no law on the books to prevent private ownership of a flame thrower. One of the oddest bits of trivia I ever ran across.http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Media/Slideshow/2013/03/28/10-Weapons-You-...

I wasn't trying to deny what you were specifically saying about flamethrowers. Just making the point that they were just one example of literally hundreds of types of "questionable military-grade hardware" that most average citizens in the US cannot typically possess legally. Those other examples (heavy machine guns, RPGs, B-52s, etc.) would likely still far under whatever's being discussed here for CoT’s legal lore.
P.S. Even in states where it's not a misdemeanor to have an unlicensed flamethrower I would imagine that most police officers (or superheroes in CoT) would likely consider it instant "probable cause" if you were just merely walking down the street with one strapped to your back. Just saying. ;)

You're reminding me of someone....

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Reminded me of someone else..

Reminded me of someone else...

[LANGUAGE WARNING]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4nknAzQPHE

Spurn all ye kindle.

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+1 Cinnder with the relevant

+1 Cinnder with the relevant name

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So, if my powers are

So, if my powers are invulnerability, making animals friendly towards me, and limited stretching (not useful in combat) then I don't have to register!

Don't mess with the Messmaster, you mendacious miscreants!

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The Slob wrote:
The Slob wrote:

So, if my powers are invulnerability, making animals friendly towards me, and limited stretching (not useful in combat) then I don't have to register!

Likely have to define 'friendly' because if you can make them friendly enough to attack on command that's an issue. 'Useful in combat' might also need to be defined. 'Intrusive' will be a tough one because if you can stretch a tendril with a weight-bearing capacity of a few pounds 10 feet then you can steal a weapon or keys even through bars.

Can't see how 'Invulnerability' can work against you though (like 'Healing Factor') so those seem pretty safe.

As with most things, the definitions of these words will be interpreted by those in power in a manner as to be the least clear for anyone in the interest of making things 'safer' for everyone...especially the authorities.

By the way, if your power is 'recording everything you see and hear and storing it on outside media' then your senses have to be registered because taping people without their consent can be illegal. Also, cops will know your face and name because the minute you show up at a crime scene because they either want you to to leave (because you might see them making a mistake), or go with them (in case you accidentally saw/heard/smelled the criminal).

Sorry for being the downer today...been seeing too much conspiracy theory/authoritarian control media stuff lately

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

By the way, if your power is 'recording everything you see and hear and storing it on outside media' then your senses have to be registered because taping people without their consent can be illegal. Also, cops will know your face and name because the minute you show up at a crime scene because they either want you to to leave (because you might see them making a mistake), or go with them (in case you accidentally saw/heard/smelled the criminal).

You might also get a job offer from the NSA!

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Reminded me of someone else...
[LANGUAGE WARNING]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4nknAzQPHE

Yup, you guys are right. Iron Man suits are way safer than flame throwers.

No, no, don't be fooled. That is not an exploding tank behind him. That was just a rabbit that spontaneously combusted.

We all know that Iron Man doesn't use weapons like that, right?

Right?

I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.

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What worries me about the way

What worries me about the way that law is structured (and what I suspect various multinational rights groups would jump all over,) is that this game's version of Marvel's Mutant Registration Act is alive and well in those laws.

On one hand, you supposedly have laws designed to protect people who don't want to become active supers. If they aren't using their powers, they don't have to identify themselves. And they don't have to testify in court under their real names. Sounds like a win for the people, right?

Wrong! The reason for this is that when a person's powers activate for the first time, they are legally required to register the event within the first thirty days. And if someone invents a piece of non-licensed tech for the purposes of being a super, they must register having done so as well. In fact, the law goes on to say that a martial artist must register their fists as dangerous weapons, making it mandatory for every child who's ever attended a martial arts program to register themselves as possessing lethal armament.

When I read that bit on heroes and the law in the game world, I was chilled. If I were living in that world, and those laws existed on the books, I'd rather be an unregistered vigilante, and take my chances with the cops, than register myself. The reason for this is that the register-on-activation clause neatly subverts the protection laws. It doesn't *matter* if you intend to use your powers or not. The moment you activate, you *must* register. This gives whoever holds that register all the power they need over you, and the people. And if you want to know what kind of scare-mongering a person could do with a list like that, look at the start of the first X-Men movie, when the senator reads out some of the scarier powers people have to the public.

That law needs to be amended. As it stands, supers, and anyone trained to protect themselves, are legally required to waive the rights the previous section supposedly gives them, or face criminal charges. And that's Just Plain Evil.

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Dragonflight wrote:
Dragonflight wrote:

*snip*
Wrong! The reason for this is that when a person's powers activate for the first time, they are legally required to register the event within the first thirty days. And if someone invents a piece of non-licensed tech for the purposes of being a super, they must register having done so as well.

You apparently missed an important word there: Public. If your initial manifestation is not public, you don't need to register, unless and until you plan on going public.

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" the law goes on to say that

" the law goes on to say that a martial artist must register their fists as dangerous weapons, making it mandatory for every child who's ever attended a martial arts program to register themselves as possessing lethal armament."

A child attending a martial arts program is no more a Martial Artist than a person attending a class on Education is a teacher. Simply possessing a tiny amount of training does not make someone dangerous or even qualified. There would have to be measures and guidelines set (I'd say most black belts would qualify) but this would hardly be all-inclusive.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

" the law goes on to say that a martial artist must register their fists as dangerous weapons, making it mandatory for every child who's ever attended a martial arts program to register themselves as possessing lethal armament."
A child attending a martial arts program is no more a Martial Artist than a person attending a class on Education is a teacher. Simply possessing a tiny amount of training does not make someone dangerous or even qualified. There would have to be measures and guidelines set (I'd say most black belts would qualify) but this would hardly be all-inclusive.

I believe there is a pretense in real life for individuals highly trained in martial arts. In many cases the court recognizes their skills as deadly weapons and judges them differently from unskilled individuals in cases of violence.

I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.

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I too had concerns very close

I too had concerns very close if not exactly parallel to this. Then I realized something..

The statues they're writing up say non-emergency public use. And they have made it very clear in multiple places that first activation in public is considered emergency use. Further, and this I had to go read into copyright performance law (thanks Aereo supreme court case) Practicing in a dojo is private. Performing on a stage is public, unless in a private venue. Equally, using martial arts in self-defense should be considered an emergency use, but it's up to prosecution and defense to convince a judge or jury of peers that the use was emergency. It leaves a lot for the courts and law enforcement to interpret, encouraging factions on both sides in-game.

If a fire blasting mutant that decides to make some coin as a street peddler, he has 30 days after his first day panhandling to register or the TCPD can arrest him for neglecting to do so. I think this is where it really feels like the Mutant Registration Act or the Superhero Registration Act. There are just enough loopholes that both sides of any civil-war type storyline have ample political ammunition to make this aspect interactively compelling. It also should remove the concern that activation does not require registration, especially if the mutant in question doesn't want to use them for crime fighting or in public.

“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams

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Greatest note: the hero may

Greatest note: the hero may register with an alias, and needn't use his secret identity. I believe this CoT instance differs from the Mutant Registration Act in that regard.

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There is also the point that

There is also the point that thought if we lived in that world we would want laws in such a way. Now for a STORY driven game having things written with some loopholes and slippery slope enters the idea of game stories where the law went to far, or where protesters against said law went to far.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Greatest note: the hero may register with an alias, and needn't use his secret identity. I believe this CoT instance differs from the Mutant Registration Act in that regard.

"Name?"
"Schrupsher Slasher."
"Occupation?"
"Schrupsher Slasher"

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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The problem with requiring

The problem with requiring registration only in the case of a public activation, is that it's generally considered an accepted trope of the comic book universe that powers tend to activate during moments of extreme personal danger or stress. Usually, this is in a public venue of some kind, or at the very least, around other people.

If you were to statistically list the people whose powers simply activate one quiet night while they're asleep versus the person whose powers trigger to save their lives in a crisis moment, I think you'd find the latter occurs vastly more often.

So, from the perspective of people who want metahumans registered for control purposes, the number who would slip through the cracks would be minor, compared to the staggeringly large number of people who would be forced to register.

A second point, is the idea of registering with a pseudonym. That won't work. The rules in the document requiring testifying states that a super may testify under their assumed identity, only as long as the registration authority can verify that this person is who they say they are. What this means is that the registration authority *must* have the actual identity of the hero(ine) on file. So while you could identify yourself by hero name at a public kiosk, or in court, you would still be required to identify your actual self to the primary authority. And when you tie in the number of probable public activations, what you have here is an organization with the secret identities of roughly 85-90% of all superpowered people in the world, whether they are active vigilantes or not.

I don't know about you, but the idea that someone had that kind of knowledge would scare me. Especially since you can't guarantee the politicians who inherit the keys to the institution will be as pure of intention as the people who set it in motion. That kind of knowledge grants power. And if the wrong people arranged to get their hands on it, that kind of knowledge could topple the world order.

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We seem to have a

We seem to have a disagreement as to what constitutes "in public" My rule of thumb would be, if the government can find photos online, or if it was covered in the news media, they have a case for calling it public. Short of that, see Summer Heat's post 84 above. As for the tropes, please remember that those are the people who get comic books written about them. Many of them may have only become heroes or villains because they did initially manifest in public. Those that didn't, and didn't later decide to go public, go unnoticed. (I call this the Hyperanthropic Principle ^_^)

As for your second point,

Quote:

You do not need to disclose your real name upon registering, but if you choose not to, you must select an appropriate alias.

Quote:

However, from the days of the first boom in superpowered heroism in the 1930’s, the courts have held that this rule does not require a hero to unmask in court so long as “independent guarantees of the witness’s identity and truthfulness” are available to the judge. After much litigation throughout the twentieth century, the Supreme Court settled in Moebius v. Massachusetts (1996) that status as a powers registrant furnishes such guarantees. Moreover, the courts have also held, citing privacy and safety concerns, that registrants need not answer questions about their identities on the stand.

I see nothing here that indicates registrants who only gave their alias on registering are not considered registrants for purposes of Moebius v. Mass.

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Dragonflight wrote:
Dragonflight wrote:

I don't know about you, but the idea that someone had that kind of knowledge would scare me. Especially since you can't guarantee the politicians who inherit the keys to the institution will be as pure of intention as the people who set it in motion. That kind of knowledge grants power. And if the wrong people arranged to get their hands on it, that kind of knowledge could topple the world order.

Oddly enough that was one of my AE arcs I done. A villain hacked into the Federal Bureau for Super-powered Affairs mainframe and used it against a hero who she had a revenge motive against.

Again my point is yes from a Law and I live in said universe I wouldn't want stuff like my real life name found out. For STORY well that's a whole other ball game. There are so many options from crooked politicians turning a good law into that darker Mutant registration Act, to cyber hackers leaking Ultrawoman's real name and address onto the internet.

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

desviper wrote:
Greatest note: the hero may register with an alias, and needn't use his secret identity. I believe this CoT instance differs from the Mutant Registration Act in that regard.

"Name?"
"Schrupsher Slasher."
"Occupation?"
"Schrupsher Slasher"

The Slash-Bringing Hasher? The Sash-Ringing, the Trash-Singing, Mash-Flinging, The Flash-Stringing, Ringing, The Cr-Crash-Dinging?

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