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Discuss: How We Make the Costumes

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Shadow Elusive
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Discuss: How We Make the Costumes

I said Art would be this week, and I meant it. But I hadn't known it would have THIS much eyecandy. Hope you enjoyed.

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Not saying I've been stalking

Not saying I've been stalking this site all day.. but ... I've been stalking all day. But seriously:

"He said there's an update.. I said b**** WHERE?" LOL..

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They have to post the

They have to post the discussion thread first. ^_^

Edit: There it is!

And doesn't that armor look nice!

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It looks fantastic.

It looks fantastic.

I can't wait to get home to watch the videos!

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Looks great. I will have more

Looks great. I will have more detail available than I thought possible.

Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.

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Looking good!

Looking good!

A request... a red pulsating light going from side to side for that helmet. You know like the Centurions from Galactica. Face it such a thing would be cool with that helmet/head.

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Good Job all.

Good Job all.

Bob, if you're recording on a laptop or hardware that feels slug'ish, try these settings:

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VERY exciting update! Almost

VERY exciting update! Almost feel out of my chair at the copper/bronze-looking helmet, and quite impressed with the other options, as well.

This calls for hyperspeed!

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RottenLuck wrote:
RottenLuck wrote:

A request... a red pulsating light going from side to side for that helmet. You know like the Centurions from Galactica. Face it such a thing would be cool with that helmet/head.

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RottenLuck wrote:
RottenLuck wrote:

Looking good!
A request... a red pulsating light going from side to side for that helmet. You know like the Centurions from Galactica. Face it such a thing would be cool with that helmet/head.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of Gort!

Gort! Klaatu barada nikto!

-Wolf sends

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Thanks for the settings

Thanks for the settings advice Izzy.

The video was a last minute thought, intended to be 10 minutes or so, which went so very long, that I thought it would just be to show off internally.

I made the second smaller one last night (to try to have something shorter and more interesting) when I realized they were going to release a video. They released them both! LOL

So, there's a look behind the curtain of my "stream of consciousness" work method.

If you sat through the 43 minute one... WOW...super fans, we love you!

Did I mention I used to sit down to make a CoH character right after dinner, finally finish getting it how I wanted, then notice it was after midnight?

Lets fill our world with some Happy Trees!

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Alas, I had to leave for work

Alas, I had to leave for work, there wasn't time to watch either of them. But once I get home... ^_^

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Thanks for the presentation!

Thanks for the presentation! It looks to me like you're putting a lot of effort into giving us a huge variety of options which is fantastic. Updates like this give us a nice glimpse into the kind of depth and capability that we can hope to see in the Avatar Builder. I have a feeling that it's gonna blow our minds when it's ready for prime time.

You also have my respect for knowing how to navigate that UI...it's got more buttons and doodads than a space shuttle. O_O

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The technical stuff is a bit

The technical stuff is a bit above me, BUT that helmet is badass!

Favs: bronze and brushed gold!


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Question?

Question?

I skimmed the videos, so I may have missed this. But we as players will have many options for our coloring and texturing of these pieces, right?


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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Question?
I skimmed the videos, so I may have missed this. But we as players will have many options for our coloring and texturing of these pieces, right?

That is the goal.

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I assume there'll be color

I assume there'll be color options similar to CoH, and more textures.

How about changing the areas of customization. We see in the helm that there was a helm-visor-ear-earpeice and a visor-helm front-helmback-ear option, so would we expect a few options or would there be a more customized option (any "surface" e.g.)?


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BobMc wrote:
BobMc wrote:

Did I mention I used to sit down to make a CoH character right after dinner, finally finish getting it how I wanted, then notice it was after midnight?

And here I thought I was the only one who did that...

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Looks good, folks. Keep up

Looks good, folks. Keep up the good work!

desviper wrote:

How about changing the areas of customization. We see in the helm that there was a helm-visor-ear-earpeice and a visor-helm front-helpback-ear option, so would we expect a few options or would there be a more customized option (any "surface" e.g.)?

Yeah, I was wondering this (or something similar to this) as well. In that other game we had several parts to compose our character's final head appearance, like visors, earpieces, antennae, etc. Will the CoT AB work this way also, such that those earpieces we see in this update wouldn't be actually connected to the main helmet but would just be one of many optional additions?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Shiny happy helmets.

Shiny happy helmets.

Woohoo!

After that "SotG" post I was expecting big things from the art update, fully aware that I was probably setting myself up for disappointment based on little more than a gut feeling. I was thrilled to see that there was no cause for disappointment.

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Wolf Shadow wrote:
Wolf Shadow wrote:

RottenLuck wrote:
Looking good!
A request... a red pulsating light going from side to side for that helmet. You know like the Centurions from Galactica. Face it such a thing would be cool with that helmet/head.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of Gort!
Gort! Klaatu barada nikto!
-Wolf sends

Gort, Centurions, Kitt, or any such thing. We all know what we are talking about!

-------------------------------------------
Personal rules of good roleplay
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2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP

RottenLuck
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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

BobMc wrote:
Did I mention I used to sit down to make a CoH character right after dinner, finally finish getting it how I wanted, then notice it was after midnight?

And here I thought I was the only one who did that...

Wait that's not normal? Hmm seem to be a lot of us who done such. Then enter game, zone, then about an hour run to Icon (ingame) because something just wasn't quite right. I still do it just now with ICON.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Looks good, folks. Keep up the good work!
desviper wrote:
How about changing the areas of customization. We see in the helm that there was a helm-visor-ear-earpeice and a visor-helm front-helpback-ear option, so would we expect a few options or would there be a more customized option (any "surface" e.g.)?

Yeah, I was wondering this (or something similar to this) as well. In that other game we had several parts to compose our character's final head appearance, like visors, earpieces, antennae, etc. Will the CoT AB work this way also, such that those earpieces we see in this update wouldn't be actually connected to the main helmet but would just be one of many optional additions?

That is the plan. This is a first pass object, from here we begin figuring out how we can split it up. The ear pieces are obvious items we could split into their own thing.

Technical Director

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All entirely amazing well

All entirely amazing well done

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Cinnder wrote:
Looks good, folks. Keep up the good work!
desviper wrote:
How about changing the areas of customization. We see in the helm that there was a helm-visor-ear-earpeice and a visor-helm front-helpback-ear option, so would we expect a few options or would there be a more customized option (any "surface" e.g.)?

Yeah, I was wondering this (or something similar to this) as well. In that other game we had several parts to compose our character's final head appearance, like visors, earpieces, antennae, etc. Will the CoT AB work this way also, such that those earpieces we see in this update wouldn't be actually connected to the main helmet but would just be one of many optional additions?

That is the plan. This is a first pass object, from here we begin figuring out how we can split it up. The ear pieces are obvious items we could split into their own thing.

Outstanding. I'm thinking the time I spend creating a costume is going to be a LOT more than in that other game. Suddenly I'm even gladder that the AB will come out before the city is live.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Oh no ... There goes

Oh no ... There goes another year of my life. Making my first costume. And another year making my first powerset.

Thanks.

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Out of idle curiosity, what

Out of idle curiosity, what was actually done with the "visor" part? It is fairly clear from the blank that there is a solid surface there, not a pass-through hole, but it doesn't appear to be red, green, *or* blue in the "primary colors" image, unless it is a subtle blue tint -- but later images don't appear consistent with that, although it is clear that it has a fairly high reflectivity -- or at least that it *can*.

I ask mostly because coloring the visor is usually one of the first things folks look for. Although I also know better than most folks that it is simple enough to add later once the thing gets split up.

As for the classic "LED scanner" look... all I can say is that if it isn't trivial to provide, y'all are doing something wrong. :)

(simple masking and composition of the primary texture with another that covers only the visor section and is animated; pretty much an ideal candidate for a simple procedural approach by just setting your bands to mirror and driving them with sin(time) as the offset control value)


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The visor area is masked

The visor area is masked using black. If I recall correctly I grabbed the full color output pin, desaturated, then added rgb .999,.999,.999 (or some such), and then floored the result (which made everything 1 or over = 1, and anything under=0, then inverted. That left the original black areas as white with the rest black.

Not as easy as just grabbing the red output pin for a grayscale mask of red areas.

Once I had the mask for the black area I could treat it as any other material layer apply maps or vector parameters for color, metal, roughness, normal, emissive etc

The visor area is actually totally flat in the low poly helmet, with the visor shape and lip completely provided by the baked normal map from the hi rez mesh, the earpiece detail and wire is similar.

This is my test of concept material, I'm not really sure how much will survive the process of connecting well to UI, and data transfer of what a character is, or bringing graphics cards to their knees etc.

I often wish we were all in a building where we could just pop over to one another's cube. It's a long way to the nearest "cubicle" from my house. It is much farther for Carlos and Hellwreckage.

Lets fill our world with some Happy Trees!

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Anybody going to Worldcon

Anybody going to Worldcon this year?

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This looks like a job for SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSE!!!!!!!

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MUST.... GET..... COSTUME....

MUST.... GET..... COSTUME.... CREATOR......

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I'm loving the textures!

I'm loving the textures! Seriously cool. I really feel my costume will look "real" with the right graphics settings.

*sings* You make me feel. Mi-iiighty real! */sings*

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

That is the plan. This is a first pass object, from here we begin figuring out how we can split it up. The ear pieces are obvious items we could split into their own thing.

Awesome. An example of that some day in the future would be cool.

The textures look amazing. I can't wait to see the crazy stuff people will come up with.

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How are we coming along with

How are we coming along with faces and hair? next time can you toss in an example? Please and thank you!

and PS, this is way cool. Thanks for tossing us a preview!

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DeathSheepFromHell wrote:
DeathSheepFromHell wrote:

Out of idle curiosity, what was actually done with the "visor" part? It is fairly clear from the blank that there is a solid surface there, not a pass-through hole, but it doesn't appear to be red, green, *or* blue in the "primary colors" image, unless it is a subtle blue tint -- but later images don't appear consistent with that, although it is clear that it has a fairly high reflectivity -- or at least that it *can*.

Spoilers!

Quote:

I ask mostly because coloring the visor is usually one of the first things folks look for. Although I also know better than most folks that it is simple enough to add later once the thing gets split up.
As for the classic "LED scanner" look... all I can say is that if it isn't trivial to provide, y'all are doing something wrong. :)
(simple masking and composition of the primary texture with another that covers only the visor section and is animated; pretty much an ideal candidate for a simple procedural approach by just setting your bands to mirror and driving them with sin(time) as the offset control value)

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Looks awesome. I will get to

Looks awesome. I will get to create my necromorph killing machine extraterrestrial alien hunter with that armor.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

By your command ...

Doctor Tyche wrote:

By your command.

Coincidence?
Hardly. That's Imperious Leader talking, the second time ...


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Am I the only CoX'r that

Am I the only CoX'r that finds this update lackluster at best? Busting out 3ds or maya meshes and applying textures isn't ground breaking news. It took years to give us all the toonstume changes that we would spend hours tweaking. Just 1 man's opinion but all the rhetoric about robust and nonsense is wasted on ppl who don't know the difference anyway. The reason CoX was a success is because the users kicked much ass... How is bringing that community back together not a top priority? Most users understand that it's not going to be perfect in the beginning.

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Cognithrust wrote:
Cognithrust wrote:

Am I the only CoX'r that finds this update lackluster at best?...

I'm sorry but I have to disagree, these updates show the costume designing process which helps us to visualise what the end result may be like.

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Cognithrust wrote:
Cognithrust wrote:

Am I the only CoX'er that finds this update lackluster at best? Busting out 3ds or maya meshes and applying textures isn't ground breaking news. It took years to give us all the toon costume changes that we would spend hours tweaking. Just 1 man's opinion but all the rhetoric about robust and nonsense is wasted on people who don't know the difference anyway.

Well, in one sense its not, but thats not whats exciting. Its the part that MWM has just gotten over a decent speed bump and solved the problem of texturing the disjointed mesh limbs and making the pattern texture look seamless/unbroken going from one limb to the torso and so on. :)

Basically it means MWM can begin to make something allot similar, or more than, say this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=96&v=fC7OeXjDEKA

I'm just curious of Base Builder Props, like Book shelves and the like.. will allow us to make the book shelves slimmer or wider, shorter or taller, using Morph Targets, or some procedural method. :)
If I'm not mistaken, I might be, Houdini Engine might be able to do this, but.. ehhh... we might not be able to afford that just yet. :/

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Good Job all.
Bob, if you're recording on a laptop or hardware that feels slug'ish, try these settings:

Personally I would use something like OBS (100% free) or Xsplit (not free, although free if you can cope with limitations) to record with. Requires a bit more to set up, but is far more flexible and powerful, and allows hardware encoding with Nvidia and Intel Quicksync technologies (there is an additional version laying around somewhere for ATI hardware encoding), something which can help a LOT when it comes to this stuff.

It can also do the capture on the application level, instead of the normal monitor capture, so you are not showing off your desktop or anything else that you don't want to show (very handy),

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Cognithrust wrote:
Cognithrust wrote:

Am I the only CoX'r that finds this update lackluster at best? Busting out 3ds or maya meshes and applying textures isn't ground breaking news. It took years to give us all the toonstume changes that we would spend hours tweaking. Just 1 man's opinion but all the rhetoric about robust and nonsense is wasted on ppl who don't know the difference anyway. The reason CoX was a success is because the users kicked much ass... How is bringing that community back together not a top priority? Most users understand that it's not going to be perfect in the beginning.

CoH's costume creator system was relatively groundbreaking for its time back in 2004. One could easily make the case that a large part of that game's "kick ass community" came together back then because people were given a unique ability to customize their game characters in a way that really didn't otherwise exist at the time.

Therefore coming up with the best possible costume system (for the 2015-16 timeframe) is likely going to be one of the best ways to recreate such a great community for CoT and why it clearly needs to be a top priority. As the cheesy movie quote goes, "If they build it they will come."

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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"If we build it they will

"If we build it they will come" does summarize much of what we aim to achieve here. CoH already created the community, a community with a hunger for a certain kind of game. If we successfully build it, oh yes, they WILL come. The ones who always believed will try it first and say it, the word will spread, and they will come all right, no matter what they said before. There's no way they won't all try it, just in case it really is what they're hoping for. And if we've build it right then many of them will find it is. And they'll stay. You see where this is going.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

"If we build it they will come" does summarize much of what we aim to achieve here. CoH already created the community, a community with a hunger for a certain kind of game. If we successfully build it, oh yes, they WILL come. The ones who always believed will try it first and say it, the word will spread, and they will come all right, no matter what they said before. There's no way they won't all try it, just in case it really is what they're hoping for. And if we've build it right then many of them will find it is. And they'll stay. You see where this is going.

I see where it is going and I like it! I like it a lot!! I love the examples of the helmet and the possibility of mixing and mashing components. It will definitely be an all night adventure creating my first costume and getting all the peices just right!

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This might be asking for the

This might be asking for the moon, but is there any way that belts can be things that you'd stick your sword/club/cell phone/tricorder/whatever to when not in use? I like the utility belts CoX had but they were only for shoe, they were not "interactive". If sets like "double swords" came with options to store your swords on your back or in belt-mounted scabbards, that would be cool. Same with guns, tonfa, etc. The armpit holster for pistols would be cool too.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I like the utility belts CoX had but they were only for shoe, they were not "interactive".

Same with CO and DCUO, AFAIK.
If they could be interactive, it would make for, in the words of Mr, Sullivan, "a really big shoe."

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

This might be asking for the moon, but is there any way that belts can be things that you'd stick your sword/club/cell phone/tricorder/whatever to when not in use? I like the utility belts CoX had but they were only for shoe, they were not "interactive". If sets like "double swords" came with options to store your swords on your back or in belt-mounted scabbards, that would be cool. Same with guns, tonfa, etc. The armpit holster for pistols would be cool too.

While we like the idea, application may prove far, far too complicated in many cases (or simply mean doing the work five or six times for the five or six options for the Lord-knows-how-many different examples in the many many power options we shall have). We'll see.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Radiac wrote:
This might be asking for the moon, but is there any way that belts can be things that you'd stick your sword/club/cell phone/tricorder/whatever to when not in use? I like the utility belts CoX had but they were only for shoe, they were not "interactive". If sets like "double swords" came with options to store your swords on your back or in belt-mounted scabbards, that would be cool. Same with guns, tonfa, etc. The armpit holster for pistols would be cool too.

While we like the idea, application may prove far, far too complicated in many cases (or simply mean doing the work five or six times for the five or six options for the Lord-knows-how-many different examples in the many many power options we shall have). We'll see.

To expand on Shadow Elusive's statements:

As we had shown in one of our vids, it is possible, using the socket system, to place objects on the back and thus other places. One of the questions becomes what happens when a player has half a dozen powers and applies a different weapon skin to each attack. Where the 'realism' of the weapon placed at a body location goes out the window because the player holstered their weapon and triggered a new attack which calls a different weapon. Is the player forced to use the "golf-bag of weapons" because they wanted so many different hand held weapons? Do they have to have a different holstered location for every different rifle, hand gun, throwing knife, and sword, and...
Not to mention ensuring all the animations synch up appropriately, which again we have tools to make it possible but the extra work involved...

These and many other questions will need to be answered as we move along the design process. It may be we can't resolve it all before launch (hello hammer space). It may be we can but there will be certain limitations to what the player is allowed to do at first which may open up down the road. Which is why Shadow Elusive said "We will see".


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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

Radiac wrote:
I like the utility belts CoX had but they were only for shoe, they were not "interactive".
Same with CO and DCUO, AFAIK.
If they could be interactive, it would make for, in the words of Mr, Sullivan, "a really big shoe."

How about a Macro that calls one of the few Belt Retrieval / Placement emotes, combined with the casting of a power after? :)

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I tried Archeage, very

I tried Archeage, very briefly, and they had a way of dealing with it by having a set of dropdowns where you could set a display priority for items on your back.
For example, At "rest", you'd see my shield on my back. If I pulled my shield , you would see my sword . Pull the sword for the other hand and you'd see my bow on my back.
If I only pulled the sword or bow, but no the shield, you'd still see my shield o my back.

Depending on what abilities I used it could be pretty distracting or ridiculous ... arguably more so than pulling weapons out of my butt nowhere and returning them when not in use.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

As we had shown in one of our vids, it is possible, using the socket system, to place objects on the back and thus other places. One of the questions becomes what happens when a player has half a dozen powers and applies a different weapon skin to each attack.

HMM.. I would assume you can just limit the animation set choices.

Primary Set - Animation choice (from your fists)
Secondary Set - Animation choice (from a sword)

Choosing an animation for every individual attach chosen seems.. difficult to manage.

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Would it "make sense" to

Would it "make sense" to require that different weapons require use of different sockets on the character avatar? That way, if you INSIST on using a different weapon for each and every single animation, it is incumbent upon you (The Player) to figure out for yourself where you're going to pull all of that from. If the game engine only supports 5 sockets on the avatar, then that's how many different weapons you can pull out of those 5 sockets.

The ugly end of this is that you wind up needing to define the weapons as costume elements almost in their own right, and then define which Powers make use of that those specific costume elements. It starts becoming a really big mess of possibilities in a real hurry. I mean, let's even just try and DEFINE where the sockets might possibly even be.

Ankle/Calf Holsters (2) (small weapon)
Thigh Holster (2) (small weapon) -or- Hip Quiver (2) (archery ammo)
Waist/Belt Holster (4) (small weapons) -or- Slung Belt Sheath (2) (swords)
Chest (2) (small weapons/bandoleers) -or- Chest (1) (think P90 sling clip)
Underarm Holster (2) (small weapons)
Back (2) (large weapons) -or- Bow & Back Quiver (2, technically) (archery)
Upper Arm Sheath (2) (small flat weapons, like knives)
Lower Arm Sheath (2) (small flat weapons, like knives)

Now think about how ... ridiculous ... it would be to require the animation team to come up with draw/holster animations for each and every single one of those socket locations compatible with each and every single kind of weapon (guns, knives, bows, arrows, grenades, wands, shields, stuffed animals, etc. etc. etc. etc.). The sheer number of possible permutations gets VERY LARGE very fast, meaning LOTS OF WORK to make that work.

Now, all of that said, I could see the animation team deciding to take on such an idea in SMALLER CHUNKS, so as to eventually work their way up towards a greater complexity like that EVENTUALLY. So a socket for the back and maybe thigh/hip holsters, sheaths or quivers would be a more manageable "first pass" goal, but with an eye towards opening up additional sockets on the avatar models at a later date so as to spread out the workload over time. That might perhaps be doable. That way, you prototype the concept on the first revolution and then proliferate the concept later on in steps that can be achieved (maybe).


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Redlynne has illustrated the

Redlynne has illustrated the issues involved very well. Ironically, it's our dedication to flexibility that makes applying this so hard. We can easily provide you with lots of silly or interesting alternate animations to powers, because we can mostly just swap and tweak for large groups of them. Our engine allows us certain shortcuts that way. But if we want to allow for a more realistic appearance style of all those things....now we have a big problem. A really big, exponentially expanding one.

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I should clarify - among

I should clarify - among animations, there would be large groups within which relatively less new material would be needed to create alternates, as far as powers go. If you're blasting a stream of x, we can change what x is in many ways with relatively few adjustments elsewhere. I'm overgeneralizing here so don't assume too much of the animation teams based on this please :D

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Is it possible to evolve it

Is it possible to evolve it over time such that maybe a year after the game rolls out, you roll out a new "hard point" on the body, like say the under-arm holster, which accepts only the pistol gun options from that power set, then later maybe you allow people to store their daggers there or something? Or would that have to be wired to work with the daggers from the beginning?

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Outta my league Rad, but

Outta my league Rad, but sequential release is definitely not a strange concept to us. I think if that's all it takes it'll get done (but I doubt it is all).

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Ah yes, another issue -

Ah yes, another issue - clipping. The amount of additional design burden increases exponentially if we need to prevent massive clipping for every weapon wherever you holster it. Hammerspace is frankly preferable to that, AND less work. Hence its popularity.

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One of my other favorite

One of my other favorite games, Mabinogi, does indeed holster weapons. And it all clips. Horribly. Constantly.

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You could just have sheathes

You could just have sheathes as part of the costume that have options for guns, swords, whatever that is for multiple types of guns,swords, whatever. So it doesn't matter what the sword looks like. The sheathe will look the same for no matter what you pull out of it. So yea, it will be a sort of golf club bag of sorts but so what? It could just be an option for a costume with a tied animation to pull it out of the sheathe.

The only difficult part with this idea is clipping, the animation, and the speed of getting it out of the sheath to have it make combat sense.

But for the whole "unlimited choice" thing, you could just create costume options "for those who actually want a sword to be clipped onto them be a "Special Item". Something that they can get or win or even a temp power. Where this rare drop Costume "xyz" grants you this sword that can be attached, you can equip/unequip whenever you please. And have this special costume have attributes, these attributes can be enhancements as well as animations.

You can enhance the attack power and accuracy as well as have it do a multitude of animations either getting it out of the sheathe or/and attack animations. Having the costume slotted allows the user the choice of what they want it to do. So you give the player choices but also limit the amount of work needing done behind the scenes.

I think this would be an easy solution to the, but what about all their other swords, guns, etc? Just make it a special item that they have to attain, maybe a reward for a certain mission, whatever the case may be.

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Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

You could just have sheathes as part of the costume that have options for guns, swords, whatever that is for multiple types of guns,swords, whatever. So it doesn't matter what the sword looks like. The sheathe will look the same for no matter what you pull out of it. So yea, it will be a sort of golf club bag of sorts but so what? It could just be an option for a costume with a tied animation to pull it out of the sheathe.
The only difficult part with this idea is clipping, the animation, and the speed of getting it out of the sheath to have it make combat sense.
But for the whole "unlimited choice" thing, you could just create costume options "for those who actually want a sword to be clipped onto them be a "Special Item". Something that they can get or win or even a temp power. Where this rare drop Costume "xyz" grants you this sword that can be attached, you can equip/unequip whenever you please. And have this special costume have attributes, these attributes can be enhancements as well as animations.
You can enhance the attack power and accuracy as well as have it do a multitude of animations either getting it out of the sheathe or/and attack animations. Having the costume slotted allows the user the choice of what they want it to do. So you give the player choices but also limit the amount of work needing done behind the scenes.
I think this would be an easy solution to the, but what about all their other swords, guns, etc? Just make it a special item that they have to attain, maybe a reward for a certain mission, whatever the case may be.

The presumptions behind pretty much every statement in there is wrong, I'm afraid. All those justs are either what was always the big problem, or another big big problem. Anything that tries to tie user defined animations to actual power function is developers hell, bad bad bad idea. Animation needs to stay cosmetic, or two already large challenges will exponentially increase each others difficulty and compound throughout the life of the game. An all purpose sheath would be so god awful ugly nobody would use it, because it would have to be, to fit everything. And it wouldn't fit with almost any costume, either.

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Heh.. just do what

Heh.. just do what Ultraviolet does! ;D

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

An all purpose sheath would be so god awful ugly nobody would use it, because it would have to be, to fit everything. And it wouldn't fit with almost any costume, either.

One Size Fits All is a prescription for Satisfies None. Can you say "Frankenrifle" ...?

Now, as far as holsters or weapon sheaths or bandoleers go, I think it would be possible to get away with a limited grouping of options.

Pistol Holsters
Automatic type
Revolver type

Knife Sheaths
Slender Blade type
Broad Blade type

Sword Sheaths
Straight Sword type
Curved Sword type

Perhaps starting out with a simple "pick 1 of 2 options" for a holster/sheath type would be adequate to, again, prototype the effort with. You're not going for EVERYTHING, you're simply angling for proof of concept work. Set a goal that can be achieved and worry about the myriad possibilities later.

Now, as far as the actual animations for these things would go, I'd honestly recommend that the draw/holster animations not even PRETEND that they're aiming for "life like" realism. Disappear/reappear the weapon on its way towards/away from the holster/sheath. As far as the avatar animation is concerned, you're mainly just "waving the hand(s)" in the general vicinity of the holster/sheath and making use of Hammerspace™ for less than a second. Simply make the exposed hilt/stock/butt/handle of the weapon "appear" in the sheath/holster as part of the "wave the hand(s) thataway" animation so that it looks like the weapon is holstered or has been unholstered/readied.

Under the hood, all you're really doing is "duping" a prepared portion of the weapon to appear/disappear into the holster/sheath, not the actual entire weapon model itself. That keeps the weapon holster/sheath as having only two appearances ... either empty or carrying ... and it makes use of data that defines the appearance of the weapon so as to make everything match up (without clipping terribly from putting an object INTO an object "for real"). The actual WEAPON that appears/disappears in the hand does so as a part of the movement of "waving the hand(s)" in the direction of the holster/sheath in an appropriate way.

So if you remember the "reach behind and grab" animation used to pull/put a Broadsword or an Assault Rifle out of/into Hammerspace™ we saw in City of Heroes, you're essentially doing THAT as the animation for drawing/holstering. However, you're ... blending ... the beginning/ending of that with having a change of state on an already existing costume component that is permanently on the character.

Note that such a formulation would permit (and accept) NOT having such a weapon stowage location on the character, since the costume element would not be required for the animation to work. All you'd be doing is designing a costume part to work in a fashion that is ... complementary ... to a weapon draw/holster animation. Put the two pieces together with the right timing and people will "forgive" the fact that it's not EXACTLY right and perfect, since it'll be "good enough" to sustain the illusion of immersion.

Something like THAT might be workable. You basically have holsters/sheaths that have 2 states (empty or carrying) and those two states are set to be the inverse of whether the weapon is readied or not. Do a little fade in/fade out fakery as part of the animation sequence for drawing/holstering the weapon and call it a day. The "loaded" holster/sheath simply dupes a significant portion of its data details off the Weapon Costume Piece so as to "match" the visible portions of the weapon when the weapon is carried in the holster/sheath.

Over time, proliferate the number of options for types of holster/sheaths for weapons (including Shields) so as to better tailor the appearance of the sheath to the weapon type (wooden sheath for swords vs leather sheath, for example) as resources permit. Define the "socket" locations for where weapons can be "stored" on the avatar and simply use animations that mime putting/pulling weapons from those locations, again, proliferating the number of options over time as resources to do so permit.

Start small with a few limited items and options and then work your way out from there. Set goals that will not be impossible to meet in a reasonable amount of time, which can then be adapted and duplicated later for additional variations on the same theme.

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Shadow Elusive, may I assume that what I am saying at least SOUNDS plausible?


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It does in fact Red. It

It does in fact Red. It sounds like exactly the sort of faking it that is usually the better way to go. But 'sounds like' is all I'm good for. I pay attention, I've learned the mindset and have an instinct. But I'm not an animator or even modeler or coder or...anything.

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Ah ... but you're the

Ah ... but you're the Community Manager ... according to the little red tippy type in your signature. That means that you can TALK to people on the team. You can (*gasp!* *shock!* *horrors!*) COMMUNICATE and learn more on our behalf. Even if you don't know the answer personally, you can ASK and FIND OUT.

Nudge nudge.
Wink wink.
Say no moar!


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Ah ... but you're the Community Manager ... according to the little red tippy type in your signature. That means that you can TALK to people on the team. You can (*gasp!* *shock!* *horrors!*) COMMUNICATE and learn more on our behalf. Even if you don't know the answer personally, you can ASK and FIND OUT.
Nudge nudge.
Wink wink.
Say no moar!

Unreal 4 MAY have a magic shortcut to make all this possible after all. MAY. This would be applying on a much bigger scale than it is usually used. So we will be launching with hammerspace, and then slowly finding out how much it can work for. And that is definitely all I can getcha for now. You know we try hard to strike a balance between being transparent about our design goals and not making commitments we can't keep, or building up hopes we may not fulfill.

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To be fair, Shadow Elusive ..

To be fair, Shadow Elusive ... I'm not "fishing" for promises or commitments to developments or actions concerning the game itself and its production. At most, I'm asking you to pass a note/tap a shoulder and confirm that a message reached the correct people. If THEY want to say something about this subject, that's on them. All I'm really looking to you, Shadow Elusive, for is a simple "the right people have received the idea" response. Full stop.

Why?
Because I don't know if they read these forums. I don't know if they've read this thread.

One of the terrible failings I've seen too often in Community Management is a habit of not confirming that feedback has been received. It can create a sort of feeling that people are shouting into an empty room and not being heard (or worse, ignored). In the absence of any means of verifying that communications have "successfully" been transmitted and received (never mind ACTED upon), it is very common to resort to all kinds of ... magical thinking ... in order to find patterns and clues to try and figure out if the transmitted message ever "made it" or not. Without a way to KNOW, people start doing what amounts to reading tea leaves and entrails, looking for SIGNS that communication was in some form or fashion successful ... even if that communication was only One Way.

So please understand, Shadow Elusive, when I say that I am far less interested in learning what people you have no authority (or I presume, control over) *WILL DO* at some unspecified date in the far off future in terms of delivering functionalities and features. Instead, what interests me *now* is hearing what you HAVE DONE (either past tense or present perfect tense, take your pick) with regards to communicating this discussion with regards to bringing it to the attention of the people who'd have some say in perhaps making it happen.

Something as simple as "Message sent and received" will suffice quite adequately. The confirmation of receipt is what's important right now ... not the promises for something we won't see for at least a year or more (I'm thinking more).

Far as I know, confirming that communications have been received and forwarded where they ought to go for consideration should neither compromise confidentiality, nor put you on the hook for promising anything you couldn't deliver (or shouldn't) deliver. However, it will go a LONG WAY towards generating peace of mind and, dare I say it, TRUST in the entire team at Missing Worlds Media to receive that confirmation of message delivery.

So breathe easy, Shadow Elusive. I'm asking you to do what is probably one of the simplest and friendliest things you'll get to do as Community Manager, which I know is an endless and substantially thankless job, a lot of the time. Help me help you set a precedent that can be something you'll actually want to in the future, and which could become a habit that will actually assist you with "managing" our Community rather effectively in a gently proactive way.

Wha'dya say?

Don't make me pet da tiger ... ^_~


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Well. That was an unexpected

Well. That was an unexpected education. I don't expect to be Community Manager long term (I got a degree in Interior Architecture because I want to *make* stuff for a living, not talk), but for now, I appreciate the insight. I'm doing the job out of love and I want to do it right.

I don't watch most of the forums, but I watch the update response threads quite closely. And when it takes a direction I think certain people on the team should see, I certainly do make sure they see it. I brought this thread to their attention as soon as I saw where it was going.

Cabbit saw a full copy paste of your comment - that's when I learned about this magic shortcut thing, which I don't want to go into too much detail on because it's all vague and 'for the future' stuff (I really like to tell you guys what I can). Basically your idea is the sort of thing we'll consider after we've confirmed if Inverse Kinetic animation (there, you can go and google that) can do this or not.

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Oh, and I almost forgot -

Oh, and I almost forgot - Redlynne, the tiger is not for Community Managers. You release the tiger when being attacked from behind by men armed with fresh raspberries and you have no gun or 16 ton weight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piWCBOsJr-w

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Well. That was an unexpected education.

It's okay. You don't have to sugar coat it. I'm a Bad Influence™ on people. THIS I already know ...

Shadow Elusive wrote:

I don't expect to be Community Manager long term (I got a degree in Interior Architecture because I want to *make* stuff for a living, not talk), but for now, I appreciate the insight. I'm doing the job out of love and I want to do it right.

Which right there puts you a cut above the average. You're not afraid to "learn" things while on the job, or admit that you've learned them. That sort of "I'm a people too" leveling with your community members earns you a LOT of credit(s) in the faith and trust departments.

Shadow Elusive wrote:

I don't watch most of the forums, but I watch the update response threads quite closely. And when it takes a direction I think certain people on the team should see, I certainly do make sure they see it. I brought this thread to their attention as soon as I saw where it was going.

There's a difference between suspecting that an idea/topic/discussion has been forwarded on and knowing that it has been brought to the attention of people on the team to whom it might be relevant/useful. What *they* actually DO with it (if anything, ever) is an entirely different question and is basically THEIR responsibility. But a Community Manager who can "flag" stuff for people on the team to know about and look at (when/if they ever have the time to do so) and communicate "over the wall" to both sides ... community and internal teams ... THAT Community Manager is worth their weight in goodwill and RESPECT ... both inside and outside the production. And let me tell you, you simply cannot BUY that kind of resource with either money (or, I suppose, love) and it is one of the things that will allow you (or your successors) to fulfill the role you're in more effectively and successfully.

Shadow Elusive wrote:

Cabbit saw a full copy paste of your comment - that's when I learned about this magic shortcut thing, which I don't want to go into too much detail on because it's all vague and 'for the future' stuff (I really like to tell you guys what I can). Basically your idea is the sort of thing we'll consider after we've confirmed if Inverse Kinetic animation (there, you can go and google that) can do this or not.

ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED!


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Being community manager is a

Being community manager is a thankless task, because even when you have notified the correct people about X/Y/Z issue, the only person who the player base can directly comment/insult/feed back to is the Community Manager.

Understandably, developers are not always able to reply to the forums... if they do they get criticised for not working on what needs to be fixed, if they don't they get criticised for not paying attention to their main job. Which is why a lot of the developers tend to shy away from being an active person on the forums.

However, the community manager is in the exact opposite position. They *need* to be that lynch pin between the developers and player base. If anything, think of them as a firewall. They have to remove the vitriol from a comment, and filter it down to something that might still need fixing, something more suitable for developers to read. Even a badly written post might have a valid point, its your job to find that point.

Community Red Names are in the hated position of being "first line" defence for the developers, and also the messenger of news. Both good and bad.

Take a page out of Zwillingers book... whenever you have to deal with players, open up a text document and write in that exactly how you feel about the poster/topic at hand.

Then you edit out the stuff that you are not allowed to say.

Then you delete it.

Then you post up the clean edited, non angry/rude version.

Because whilst we might be a calm and collected player base, I remember Zwill saying that he had to do this each and every day (pretty much) for the CoX forums. And I understand why as well (having done the community manager thing on and off over numerous years).

And sometimes the players just need a target for their disappointment with X/Y/Z. I have seen a GM get sworn at by a particularly angry player ingame once... he was told to go "go and do his ^&*%^ing job and fix the game, not spend it playing the game". So the GM did his job and banned the player.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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This poster pretty much sums

This poster pretty much sums up what the job of being a Community Manager is like, especially for the good ones:

So ... THANK YOU, Shadow Elusive ... for being a part of the solution, and not a part of any problems.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Ashenfall
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Community Manager is not just

Community Manager is not just a thankless position but an _invaluable_ position. We handle such an invaluable person with care, 'cause just as in retail, whomever breaks the goods buys 'em. We cannot afford to lose our link to the players. :)

Trust me, the devs watch the Update discussions, so to see the player base reaction but they may not have the time to respond. Especially with this Update which we took a gamble with. This was the raw unadulterated goods straight from the Art Dept, no slick 'n fancy PR tomfoolery the other game companies put out. Transparency I believe the catch phrase is now. Transparency for a player base we regard as a community and not just as a customer base.

<.< >.> <.<

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Shadow's awesome. 'Nuff said

Shadow's awesome. 'Nuff said.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Disclaimer: remember that I'm

Disclaimer: remember that I'm not actively involved with most of this anymore. None of what I say should be taken as a statement that MWM has, can, or *will* do any particular thing. But I can certainly talk about the original vision for some of it, because a fairly significant chunk of it came out of my head.

The key to making any system that can cope with the levels of flexibility discussed here is found in a single pair of words: "emergent behavior".

Folks have talked about "emergent gameplay" a lot recently, in the gaming industry, but the thing that seems to go right over most people's heads is that if done right and done from the start, it is arguably *easier* to build a game with emergent gameplay than one without. It also mimics what good GMs do for tabletop, and what good *code* looks like when it really hits the combination of "elegant" plus "flexible".

And all it boils down to is this:

  1. Define what needs to be able to happen in abstract terms
  2. Define how those things relate to each other
  3. Define which of those things are relevant to anything you create
  4. Compose complex things out of simpler things

All of this boils down even further to "break things down into parts". As a rule the tricky part is understanding *what* parts to break things down into.

Want physics? You'll need the concepts represented in the three Newtonian laws of motion. And... remarkably little else, mostly in the form of "apply X to Y" or "read value Z and act on it".

Want the ability for costume pieces to be linked to power animations? Define the nature of "a power animation" and "a costume piece" (while not *quite* as trivial as they might initially seem, yes, these are actually relatively simple), and then define the concept of "some things may only be compatible with certain other things".

Example: plus or minus a fairly small amount of leeway, cross-drawing a sword, a knife, or a gun actually aren't all that different, motion-wise. If they're different enough, you split those into "cross-draw a small thing" and "cross-draw a large thing", or whatever other split makes sense once you start actually trying to work with it.

Hand grasp of the item being drawn? Let that be defined by what you're drawing; the actual arm motion is the same, plus or minus things like the mass of the thing being drawn -- which are best handled by given things mass and then letting the engine do a physics blending, so that your draw will have more "heft" if you're pulling something with a lot of mass out.

Sword and scabbard? Model the hilt, the outside of the scabbard, the inside of the scabbard, and the blade separately (but all with reference to each other, so they 'fit' correctly). When sheathed, it is just a single object built from the hilt and the scabbard exterior, since you can't see anything else anyway. When you trigger the 'draw' animation, swap that single object out for a "a sword" (hilt plus blade) plus "a scabbard" (interior plus exterior) at some point during the several frames of motion involved in "reaching for the hilt".

Projected laser dot? Just as you would with a real firearm, stick a light source on the thing. And so on.

Yes, some of them would need to be optimized due to costing too much when rendered separately. Even for those, if you *built* the things separately but properly, all you really have to do then is go into the 3D app and write a small script to export the firearm in both "with" and "without" projector / sight forms.

Some of this may sound familiar -- it should. Think "aesthetic decoupling". For power animations, that's simply composing animation segments together after selecting them based on what is needed for a given visual to make sense, and what available segments fit those requirements. Which is pretty much identical *in principle* (very different *in implementation*, mind you) to... building a body out of piecemeal selections in the first place.

In fact, they might just happen to interact with each other. Say, for example, "by default the draw-over-the-shoulder animations are not candidates for display unless there is a costume piece which is marked as being possible to 'draw' from that position". If the animation happens to specify that it only works with a one-handed weapon, then the two-handed draw animations would be disqualified as well. And so on, until you end up with a selection of possibilities that match what is actually possible to do without resorting to hammerspace, etc.

Again, as a last disclaimer: all of this is stuff from the original vision. What actually ends up happening, especially as reality forces things to get adjusted in all the various ways, may bear little or no resemblance to anything I've described. But "emergent usage" was always intended to be the primary operating mode of the system. Nothing else would ever have a snowball's chance of succeeding when you're trying to deal with the sort of flexibility folks expect these days.


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Interdictor
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

To be fair, Shadow Elusive ... I'm not "fishing" for promises or commitments to developments or actions concerning the game itself and its production. At most, I'm asking you to pass a note/tap a shoulder and confirm that a message reached the correct people. If THEY want to say something about this subject, that's on them. All I'm really looking to you, Shadow Elusive, for is a simple "the right people have received the idea" response. Full stop.
Why?
Because I don't know if they read these forums. I don't know if they've read this thread.
One of the terrible failings I've seen too often in Community Management is a habit of not confirming that feedback has been received. It can create a sort of feeling that people are shouting into an empty room and not being heard (or worse, ignored). In the absence of any means of verifying that communications have "successfully" been transmitted and received (never mind ACTED upon), it is very common to resort to all kinds of ... magical thinking ... in order to find patterns and clues to try and figure out if the transmitted message ever "made it" or not. Without a way to KNOW, people start doing what amounts to reading tea leaves and entrails, looking for SIGNS that communication was in some form or fashion successful ... even if that communication was only One Way.
So please understand, Shadow Elusive, when I say that I am far less interested in learning what people you have no authority (or I presume, control over) *WILL DO* at some unspecified date in the far off future in terms of delivering functionalities and features. Instead, what interests me *now* is hearing what you HAVE DONE (either past tense or present perfect tense, take your pick) with regards to communicating this discussion with regards to bringing it to the attention of the people who'd have some say in perhaps making it happen.
Something as simple as "Message sent and received" will suffice quite adequately. The confirmation of receipt is what's important right now ... not the promises for something we won't see for at least a year or more (I'm thinking more).
Far as I know, confirming that communications have been received and forwarded where they ought to go for consideration should neither compromise confidentiality, nor put you on the hook for promising anything you couldn't deliver (or shouldn't) deliver. However, it will go a LONG WAY towards generating peace of mind and, dare I say it, TRUST in the entire team at Missing Worlds Media to receive that confirmation of message delivery.
So breathe easy, Shadow Elusive. I'm asking you to do what is probably one of the simplest and friendliest things you'll get to do as Community Manager, which I know is an endless and substantially thankless job, a lot of the time. Help me help you set a precedent that can be something you'll actually want to in the future, and which could become a habit that will actually assist you with "managing" our Community rather effectively in a gently proactive way.
Wha'dya say?
Don't make me pet da tiger ... ^_~

Are the community managers to be eternal "messenger boys/girls" delivering suggestions to the appropriate developers? Not all ideas are of equal value - even when espoused by the same person. If it's an idea that a lot of people agree with - then great - it should get passed along. If they want to let you know they are looking into it (or even if it fits with what they already have planned) - even better. But to require receipt of message? I'm sorry Red - but this kinda looks more like ego-stroking than anything else.

And the "let me help you help yourself" tone of your post? You're kind of overdoing it there.

Izzy
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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Are the community managers to be eternal "messenger boys/girls" delivering suggestions to the appropriate developers? Not all ideas are of equal value - even when espoused by the same person. If it's an idea that a lot of people agree with - then great - it should get passed along. If they want to let you know they are looking into it (or even if it fits with what they already have planned) - even better. But to require receipt of message? I'm sorry Red - but this kinda looks more like ego-stroking than anything else.
And the "let me help you help yourself" tone of your post? You're kind of overdoing it there.

Yea, I got the same vibe.
Red has a number of good ideas, but as soon as someone tries to lessen her contribution, she gets a tad hostile. :P
We know this already. Nothing new. :{

Redlynne
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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Are the community managers to be eternal "messenger boys/girls" delivering suggestions to the appropriate developers?

Short answer: NO.

Slightly longer answer(s):
Is this task ONE of the things that Community Managers are well placed to perform? Yes.
Do the more successful Community Managers perform this service (in both directions)? Yes.

In other words, there's more to it than just that.

Interdictor wrote:

Not all ideas are of equal value - even when espoused by the same person.

Agreed.
Not even all of my ideas are "worthy" of passing along the food chain.

Bottom line: some do, some don't ... regardless of source.
Now, to be fair, some sources are more reliable for good ideas/analysis than others (go figure), but absent an invitation from someone on staff, there shouldn't be an expectation that Everything I Say Is Gospel Because *I* Said It. That way lies hubris, which brings its own baggage of dangers, mistakes and errors.

Interdictor wrote:

But to require receipt of message? I'm sorry Red - but this kinda looks more like ego-stroking than anything else.

When someone (on staff) says, "that sounds reasonable, but I'm not the one to judge" then the natural and obvious next step is to ask the person (on staff) saying that to tap the person on the shoulder who WOULD be responsible for that and give them a heads up. It is then only a courtesy for that person (on staff) to follow up and say, "message delivered" and then let the matter rest.

That's what Shadow Elusive did, and I applaud the effort of doing so. Not because it strokes my ego, even though I'm the first recipient of the gesture, but because I want to see this sort of thing become STANDARD PRACTICE in the future for what ought to be good ideas posted on these forums. Note that only a minority of those ideas will ever be mine.

I merely happened to be first. I have no intention of the being the "last" or the "only" person to ever receive such consideration from a/the Community Manager for City of Titans. I want EVERY Good Idea™ to receive the same sort of "thank you" note from either a Community Manager or other member of staff acknowledging that the idea has been received and brought to the attention of the "right people" on staff to have a look at it. That very simple level of interactivity both rewards and encourages the development of Good Ideas™ by the community at large and fosters a sense of inclusiveness that is both precious and rewarding.

Yes, I was first. Someone always has to be first. That's the way habits and patterns of behavior get started. I do NOT want to be the last, and I would absolutely hate being the "only" person to ever receive such acknowledgement.

So somebody else start posting great ideas that are even better than mine ... please. I'm all for a Meritocracy of Ideas.

Interdictor wrote:

And the "let me help you help yourself" tone of your post? You're kind of overdoing it there.

Hey, if you want to ride the High Horse, it's all yours. Have at it. I don't need it. I made my point, it has been accepted, and now EVERYONE will benefit from it henceforth, not just me.

Just because I chose a ... forceful and direct ... means of delivery for that point does not invalidate the point that I successfully made. I asked for something. I explained WHY I thought the request was reasonable. The request was accepted and granted. So why are you upset on Shadow Elusive's behalf? I'm not. I've already gotten my warm fuzzies and moved on, comfortable in the knowledge that I've made community interactions just that little bit better for all of us.

I mean, there's nitpicking and then there's ... whatever this is you're on about, which is complaining about a small improvement in community relations practices and communications. So you don't like HOW I went about doing it. Okay, that's fair. Just try not to get yourself entangled into a misunderstanding of WHY I went ahead and did this.

I'm not arguing with the results. Do you really want to? If so, why?


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Are the community managers to be eternal "messenger boys/girls" delivering suggestions to the appropriate developers? Not all ideas are of equal value - even when espoused by the same person. If it's an idea that a lot of people agree with - then great - it should get passed along. If they want to let you know they are looking into it (or even if it fits with what they already have planned) - even better.

I will just leave this here and let you decide on what an Online Community Manager needs to do, it pretty much spells it out:

Quote:

The origins of the (online) community manager take their root in the computer games industry with the advent of MMORPG (Massively Multiplayer Online Role-playing Games) back in 1995. Roles have expanded to include a wide variety of community management, social media, and both marketing and support roles. At the core, community management encompasses a little bit of each of these, while retaining its core tenet - ensuring open communications between the developer and community.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_community_manager

So yes, they are the 2 way messenger

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Realism aside, I'm of the

Realism aside, I'm of the camp that if you want 20 weapons, you can just deal with the performance effects :p


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