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Discuss: How a Tree Can Make All the Difference (map optimization)

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Shadow Elusive
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Discuss: How a Tree Can Make All the Difference (map optimization)

Here we go. It's your second glimpse of the test zone, and let me remind you that we have at last reached a stage where everything you see is ours, instead some central subject being ours and everything else being UE4 stock background (I did get tired of always needing to find places to insert reminders as to which parts of the video we could actually take credit for).

Read/watch the update here: http://cityoftitans.com/content/how-tree-can-make-all-difference-map-optimization

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We'll be reborn yet.

We'll be reborn yet.

Puny Heroes.

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That test zone looks pretty

That test zone looks pretty damned good, if I do say so myself. Makes me want to meander along and have an Aether Pirate pinnace fall into the street in front of me.

"It's time for... Emergency Pants!" *zip*

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Well done! This update makes

Well done! This update makes me optimistic on two levels. First, the city is beautiful, and the movement seems smooth. Second, you are identifying in game problems, successfully troubleshooting them, and being transparent about it. Kudos to the devs and managers involved.

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I'm really impressed with

I'm really impressed with what I'm seeing. The test block looks wonderful, and it's great to see the animation issues being identified and dealt with swiftly.

On a purely secondary note, how many people were hoping the character would start flying when the soundtrack began to pick up? I think that's the hallmark moment I'm waiting for. When the character first flies over a completed city section. Here's hoping... :)

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Thanks for the update.

Thanks for the update. Refreshing look under the hood

From the look of the background behind that retaining wall, I suspect that if the avatar flew too high you'd be able to see the zone hanging in mid-air like Ouroboros =)

Lay your hands on me
While I'm bleeding dry
Break on through blue skies
And take it high

Shadow Elusive
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Well yeah, that's one reason

Well yeah, that's one reason it's the *Test* zone, there's not that much of it. I believe that will have changed by next month though, at least in some ways. It's all prep for making the real zones, we're learning as much as we can now, get the max for our efforts when we finally go all out.

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I wasn't trying to say that

I wasn't trying to say that you weren't putting in the proper effort. The game is looking great and, if anything, might be ahead of where I'd expect it to be

My brain is just wired for puns. Even visual ones. Forgive my weird sense of humor

Lay your hands on me
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Break on through blue skies
And take it high

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This explains so much. I

This explains so much. Every time I went to my friend's house, things seemed a little off. I'd park my car at the curb, then suddenly I'd be on his neighbor's lawn. He'd open the front door, then he'd be in the bushes. Things have been much better since he got rid of that Douglas Fir in the backyard.

But seriously, that map is beautiful. I tried to picture villains standing along the streets and heroes slinging fire and energy blasts from the sky as Odo jogged along. This game is gonna look great, and I think us ex-CoX players will feel right at home in our awesome new city.

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Yep.. looking really good. :)

Yep.. looking really good. :)

I'm wondering how the bright effects will be handled... like powers with a Snow white look, in brightly lit zones. :)
Just dont make it bright white? ;D

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*blinks* Did I sound offended

*blinks* Did I sound offended? It was an accurate observation from someone who seemed to appreciate it for what it was overall.

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Problem identified and

Problem identified and resolved. Well done!

So is Doug Laczvyr going to be a temporal-powered villain? ^_^

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
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the test block is looking

the test block is looking durn good for sure!

ALL of you at MWM are doing a superb job, keep up the awesome work!

Izzy
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Seems like Unreal Engine 4 is

Seems like Unreal Engine 4 is very city friendly: https://youtu.be/e_SNKCiPl3k?t=3m40s
;)

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This is the first look I've

This is the first look I've had at the game and I am impressed. The graphics are coming along well, I can hardly wait to actually play. It's also good to know that the Devs are paying close attention to fix the bugs asap. I think COT will go over well, I told my hubby and a few others about and they are very interested. Since COH/V went down we just couldn't find another game that was as fun to play. Its great to know that you guys are developing another superhero game similar to COH/V. Thanks guys !!!

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Once again proving the maxim

Once again proving the maxim ... If it isn't tested, it's broken.


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What kind of rig is running

What kind of rig is running this? It looks pretty good but it seemed to cough a bit towards the end when Odo and the camera got into the trees along the wall

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

What kind of rig is running this? It looks pretty good but it seemed to cough a bit towards the end when Odo and the camera got into the trees along the wall

Same one as ever, a basic two-gen old Mac Mini.

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This is the kind of update I

This is the kind of update I want to see. The actual construction of the world. The lore posts are nowhere near as necessary because if the missions are designed properly, we'll learn that stuff in game.

SEZ

Tatter

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I watched this video three

I watched this video three times already and every time I see more things I like. You did a wonderful job so far and I am fully convinced that I will feel right at home in Titan City. Thank you for sharing this!

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+1 to everything everyone's

+1 to all the good stuff everyone's said. Exciting update!

Ok, I'll bring the first stupid question to the table. Since you brought up trees...

Do you have to draw every tree and then duplicate them throughout the city?

I know in CoH I often thought "oh, THAT tree again" when I saw one of the handful of identical trees scattered throughout the zones.

Can you procedurally generate trees so that they aren't a finite number of repeated clones.

Obviously I barely know what I'm talking about and this is a stupid question, and if you can't do this it's not a big deal, I was just thinkin...

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Apparently there's this

Apparently there's this program called SpeedTree, which is for quickly creating trees and flowers and from the sound of it most kinds of flora. Most likely this also enables us to have more variety.

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Sweet.

Sweet.

Edit: Holy crap. I looked SpeedTree up and it was used to, among other things, make the vegetation for Pandora in the movie Avatar.

Yeh, that should work :P.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Dat city.

Dat city.

Puny Heroes.

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*whistles* Damn that's

*whistles* Damn that's looking good. I am looking forward to seeing how the zones look in the future.

Formerly known as Bleddyn

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So aside from the city

So aside from the city looking wonderful, two things I now have to add to what I want to see in the game when it goes live...

Douglas the Fir: Sentient tree supervillain who uses slows and snares :)

The mannequin rig you use to run around would make a really neat series of robots/androids/whatever to work in industrial places, actually use as mannequins in storefronts, stuff like that where you can put it in as a reminder of "this is where we came from" without it being out of place in the environment.

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Starhammer wrote:
Starhammer wrote:

The mannequin rig you use to run around would make a really neat series of robots/androids/whatever to work in industrial places, actually use as mannequins in storefronts, stuff like that where you can put it in as a reminder of "this is where we came from" without it being out of place in the environment.

That would give me the Willies! Pun intended! ;D

Aside from that, If Avengers: Age of Ultrons can do it..

HELL.. why not! ;)

Hmm.. i wonder... how many times has Black Widow had to recharge those glow sticks... and is Thor tired of Widow rubbing them against him so much? :{
If I only knew that, i could finally learn How Many Licks it takes to get to the center of a T... ahhh.. you already know! ;)

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Once again, I think you've

Once again, I think you've done exactly what you always said you wanted to: you've captured the spirit of our old City while making it fresh and new. I could definitely call this place my new home, and that's just the rough test zone. Well done, MWM!!

I like Starhammer's idea of keeping Odo in the game as a kind of 'historical easter egg.'

Zerohour wrote:

What kind of rig is running this? It looks pretty good but it seemed to cough a bit towards the end when Odo and the camera got into the trees along the wall

I suspect that was not PC coughing so much as an artefact of user input. Correct me if I'm wrong, MWM, but it looks like the camera was being mouse-controlled, and any apparent jerkiness was due to the old pick-up-and-replace-mouse-to-scroll-more paradigm. (That's how I played CoX, and I suspect any recording of my game would look similar.) Also I think Odo actually gets stuck on a tree branch at one point.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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As long as MWM doesnt forget

As long as MWM doesnt forget to build the game with bite sized tutorials in mind. :)
ex: Extra Credit goes into this a bit more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCPcn-Q5nKE

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I love seeing these kinds of

I love seeing these kinds of updates; Great work so far! :E being from a support background I'm very familiar with the process of elimination, it's good to know that 'it's the last thing we tried' doesn't just happen to me! :D

Can't wait for that Electric feeling ;)

Fusion - (Fusion Reacta, Victory) (@Fusi) - Electrical Blaster

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I love the look! I hope it

I love the look! I hope it will run well on my machine!! :-o

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Starhammer wrote:
Starhammer wrote:

Douglas the Fir: Sentient tree supervillain who uses slows and snares :)

Didn't we just get done dealing with that guy back during Christmas, what with beards and such?

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Being a math/computer

Being a math/computer computer geek, I found that update just plain fascinating. Thanks guys!

Oh, and you know what IT LOOKS FREAKING GORGEOUS!!!1!!!!one!!111!!!eleventyone!!!1

With great power, comes the need for great heat sinks

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Starhammer wrote:
Starhammer wrote:

So aside from the city looking wonderful, two things I now have to add to what I want to see in the game when it goes live...
Douglas the Fir: Sentient tree supervillain who uses slows and snares :)
The mannequin rig you use to run around would make a really neat series of robots/androids/whatever to work in industrial places, actually use as mannequins in storefronts, stuff like that where you can put it in as a reminder of "this is where we came from" without it being out of place in the environment.

+1 Odo MUST have a place in game just for us who hung out here on the forums for months and years watching him run around with great anticipation....that was our anticipation BTW, not his.

With great power, comes the need for great heat sinks

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Stutty wrote:
Stutty wrote:

Starhammer wrote:
So aside from the city looking wonderful, two things I now have to add to what I want to see in the game when it goes live...
Douglas the Fir: Sentient tree supervillain who uses slows and snares :)
The mannequin rig you use to run around would make a really neat series of robots/androids/whatever to work in industrial places, actually use as mannequins in storefronts, stuff like that where you can put it in as a reminder of "this is where we came from" without it being out of place in the environment.

+1 Odo MUST have a place in game just for us who hung out here on the forums for months and years watching him run around with great anticipation....that was our anticipation BTW, not his.

The mannequin in the tailor shop, if nothing else.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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If I can make just one

If I can make just one request of any developer: When you start doing more optimizations please make it possible for players to have more control of draw distance and fog distance unless it's a zone meant to have poor visibility. CoX really had some very beautiful areas that you simply couldn't appreciate because they had to limit your viewing distance to make them playable. Log into icon sometime and turn off fog and look at how beautiful even the older zones like independence port and the Abyss is. Especially the waterfall area where you fight the hamidon. That something you can never truly appreciate without dev controls because you're limited to 200% view distance.

Optimization is cool and I'd rather wait longer to play if it meant not having these same stupid restrictions because of trees or whatever the real problem was in cox.

In these pictures normally all you'd see is blurryness from grey fog and you couldn't even see the other side of the pit without flying towards it.

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Quote:
Quote:

Turned out that somehow during the creation process for the Fir, one of the settings was off with the result being that the Douglas Fir, in addition to being ideal for being decorated in anticipation of celebrating whatever winter holiday your family enjoys, was sporting a huge, and I mean gigantic, mathematical error within the mesh. Nothing the human eye could see, but hidden within the polygons of that conifer was a glitch that drove video cards insane.

I do hope that you've created or acquired a utility that will let you more automatically check the resources each art asset uses. Debugging whole scenes when you've added umpteen objects will quickly become unmanageable. And this case, with a single object that was horribly wrong, is the easy one. Imagine adding an asset that causes a 10% performance hit instead of 1000%. And then multiple that 10% by 100 different objects and your whole scene is slow, but without a single point of failure.

You need something that takes a single asset and directly measures the resources it uses. Ideally, it should be provided by the engine you're using; if not, ask/request/demand/beg them for one.

Kickstart Backer # 771

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They had a psychic flash with

They had a psychic flash with that evil Christmas tree.

Like Starhammer said, we HAVE to have an evil Douglas Fir ingame--as... an Eden Corp GM!!!

It can spray out pollen that slows everyone. That way fighting it would be like a lagfest :P.

And Odo too somewhere :).

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Makes me wonder ... if Odo

Makes me wonder ... if Odo was a costume option in the Avatar Editor, how many Players would make an Odo knockoff PC?

As for actually making use of Odo within the game, beyond being a storefront dummy ... I recommend making Odo an NPC who appears in the Welcome To Titan City tutorial. Odo could explain certain functions/actions that the PC needs to accomplish as a part of the learning process of the tutorial. That way, Odo gets "officially" immortalized into City of Titans.

Sure, Odo is no Coyote ... but then again, he isn't trying to be.

Another possible place to deploy Odo as an NPC would be on a dance floor in a club somewhere. You'd only need 1 Odo, and you could even name him Odo. That way, you'd have an active, as opposed to static, Odo doing emotes rather than just standing still or doing idle animations.


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Great update, thanks for

Great update, thanks for sharing that with us.

BTW, did anyone else want to squeee for glee upon reading: "the Douglas Fir ... ideal for being decorated in anticipation of celebrating whatever winter holiday your family enjoys" !

I will so put these in my base, decorated oh yeah, for the winter holidays! Huzzah!

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

They had a psychic flash with that evil Christmas tree.
Like Starhammer said, we HAVE to have an evil Douglas Fir ingame--as... an Eden Corp GM!!!
It can spray out pollen that slows everyone. That way fighting it would be like a lagfest :P.
And Odo too somewhere :).

You mean like: http://cityoftitans.com/content/12-days-devmas-day-13

Sound Lead, Bullpen Writer

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No no no ... you mean

No no no ... you mean something MORE LIKE THIS.

Who knew that Doctor Tyche got a cameo in The Christmas Invasion?

Go on then ... raise yer 'ands. Who knew?


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I've been lurking since there

I've been lurking since there was somewhere to lurk. This update is finally pulling me out of the shadows. This is the best update I have seen so far. I had a dream just last night and realized I want to play even when I'm sleeping. This morning I found this in my inbox. What a treat. I love the idea of randomized trees and other elements, but please keep this in mind, "Done is better than perfect". If it takes too long, I would rather have our little playground back, redundant trees and all. Really this is beautiful. I can't wait to play it and wish I had time to contribute more than just $$$. Please keep up the good work. I can't wait to play with my children.

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And keep in mind, even if we

And keep in mind, even if we can't do "randomized trees" today does not mean we cannot later. Once we identified the Douglas Fir as the issue, took under a minute to swap it with a replacement.

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Unless its a forest,

If its a forest, randomized trees are Ok. If ther's a badge/plaque/etc.. that i need to find in the forest..
..then a Different looking tree would be Nice to make it stand apart from its surrounding trees.

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You guys are doing an amazing

You guys are doing an amazing job. Keep up the great work and by the looks of things I am confident in the people working on the project will give up a great game. May the legend of City of Heroes and the New amazing City of Titans live on.

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Hero_Zero wrote:
Hero_Zero wrote:

"Done is better than perfect". If it takes too long, I would rather have our little playground back, redundant trees and all. Really this is beautiful. I can't wait to play it and wish I had time to contribute more than just $$$. Please keep up the good work. I can't wait to play with my children.

Ah HZ, so many of us agree with you, but the reality of reality is that it cannot be rushed too much. Those rampaging Douglas Firs and as yet undiscovered mildly woogedy hedgerows and prickly pears wait like undiscovered monkey grass to bog the birth of the child we so anxiously await. It's such a delicate balance between release too early, scaring the fans away, and release too late to get "meh who cares."

Pardon, I'm going to watch the video again :: giggles with glee ::

With great power, comes the need for great heat sinks

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2nd double post for the day:

2nd double post for the day:

After watching the video four times, I realized, holy crap that score is nice!

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Yeah, I noticed that too. Is

Yeah, I noticed that too. Is it Hellwreckage?

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Stutty wrote:
Stutty wrote:

2nd double post for the day:
After watching the video four times, I realized, holy crap that score is nice!

Yep.. my only fear is.. the Melody will be drowned out.
Extra Credit delves deeper into game Melodies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKgHrz_Wv6o

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Starhammer wrote:
Starhammer wrote:

So aside from the city looking wonderful, two things I now have to add to what I want to see in the game when it goes live...
Douglas the Fir: Sentient tree supervillain who uses slows and snares :)

Oh, we can do better than that. The Arbor Rangers!

Doug: The tall, cool leader.
Oak: The big tough guy.
Pine: The nerd.
Redbud: Token female
Weeping Willow: the emo guy.

Bristlecone: The aged mentor.

And they all merge to form Sequoia!

________
This looks like a job for SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSE!!!!!!!

Composition Team

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Yeah, I noticed that too. Is it Hellwreckage?

Yes, another Hellwreckage original.

Technical Director

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Sweet.
Edit: Holy crap. I looked SpeedTree up and it was used to, among other things, make the vegetation for Pandora in the movie Avatar.

Why yes. Yes, it was.

As a minor point: the trees in the video either weren't hooked up to certain bits of the engine, or those bits weren't turned on yet (which would make sense given that they are more of a 'fancy' thing, higher graphical cost for prettier results).

As for what those bits might be, well, I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. Suffice to say that the trees are nice enough, but what the video focused on doesn't actually do much to truly "show them off." Or to put it another way: you ain't seen much, yet. More than "nothing", but there's still plenty more in store.


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Pleonast wrote:
Pleonast wrote:

Quote:
Turned out that somehow during the creation process for the Fir, one of the settings was off with the result being that the Douglas Fir, in addition to being ideal for being decorated in anticipation of celebrating whatever winter holiday your family enjoys, was sporting a huge, and I mean gigantic, mathematical error within the mesh. Nothing the human eye could see, but hidden within the polygons of that conifer was a glitch that drove video cards insane.
I do hope that you've created or acquired a utility that will let you more automatically check the resources each art asset uses. Debugging whole scenes when you've added umpteen objects will quickly become unmanageable. And this case, with a single object that was horribly wrong, is the easy one. Imagine adding an asset that causes a 10% performance hit instead of 1000%. And then multiple that 10% by 100 different objects and your whole scene is slow, but without a single point of failure.
You need something that takes a single asset and directly measures the resources it uses. Ideally, it should be provided by the engine you're using; if not, ask/request/demand/beg them for one.

UE4 slices, dices, and even juliennes the statistics for you. It does, however, require you to have some experience in practical debugging to not just be overwhelmed by the number of places you might have to check, but after a bit you learn enough to make reasonably educated guesses at "that looks like a lighting problem" or "those particle systems over there are built inefficiently"... at which point you bring up something like, oh, the "lighting complexity" mode that renders the entire world as a "heatmap" style based on the lighting complexity of a surface rather than on what that lighting calculated.

Frequently that's enough to quite simply spot the culprit, as long as you pick the right view / tool set. For overall performance, it is closer to traditional optimization than true debugging: you crunch through a whole bunch of numbers, exercising what you're interested in, and look for the places you can reduce resource usage because some shader is being called millions of times and shaving two instructions off of it actually adds up when you're talking about rendering frames in (small) fractions of a second.

But as Knuth says: premature optimization is the root of all evil. Let reality *tell* you where the time is going, rather than trying to guess. And we're just now starting to get to the point of having anything assembled in one place that is complex enough to actually show much impact from inefficiency, even something as severe as this.

Of course, one way to look at it would be "the engine is good enough that it takes this much in it before even serious problems actually cause results this severe"...


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Noyjitat wrote:
Noyjitat wrote:

If I can make just one request of any developer: When you start doing more optimizations please make it possible for players to have more control of draw distance and fog distance unless it's a zone meant to have poor visibility. CoX really had some very beautiful areas that you simply couldn't appreciate because they had to limit your viewing distance to make them playable. Log into icon sometime and turn off fog and look at how beautiful even the older zones like independence port and the Abyss is. Especially the waterfall area where you fight the hamidon. That something you can never truly appreciate without dev controls because you're limited to 200% view distance.
Optimization is cool and I'd rather wait longer to play if it meant not having these same stupid restrictions because of trees or whatever the real problem was in cox.

As pointed out elsewhere, even if we end up needing to have to have some degree of this at launch as a mitigation of things, that doesn't mean it will last forever.

That said, sight-line buffers around each launch zone are certainly something we have maps of, in order to see what parts of the rest of the city we have to build out far enough to at least, well, be there when you look.

And fog really is so tacky these days; if you're over a city, atmospheric haze and lensing / blurring caused by temperature layering in the air (the giant version of 'heat shimmer') are much more realistic obscurement techniques. :)

And slightly more seriously, the actual problem the "fog of war" is attempting to account for is usually the fact that trying to load the details necessary to *render* the amount of stuff that far out there is really non-trivial; 55 degrees of visible arc (or 75, or 95, or whatever) for the 100 meters in front of you have a whole *lot* less in it than the same 55 degrees of arc measured across an interval from 500m to 600m.

UE4 just so happens to have a system build in that can at least attempt to compensate for that issue (they call it "Massive LOD" and it boils down to a backdrop texture that is generated based on the actual geometry within the game), but we haven't assembled anything yet that was even close to big enough to trigger it kicking in, so it hasn't been tested (by us, Epic has tested it rather thoroughly, I suspect).

Edit: typo correction


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DeathSheepFromHell wrote:
DeathSheepFromHell wrote:

And slightly more seriously, the actual problem the "fog of war" is attempting to account for is usually the fact that trying to load the details necessary to *render* the amount of stuff that far out there is really non-trivial; 55 degrees of visible arc (or 75, or 95, or whatever) for the 100 meters in front of you have a whole *lot* less in it than the same 55 degrees of arc measured across an interval from 500m to 600m.

For folks playing the home game, volume varies with the cube of range, so to go from 100 m to 500 m means you have to render 125 times as much volume. (And if any of that is movable, the server has to tell your machine where it is...)

Anyway, I'm wondering if there's an MWM-written "quality degradation" system in place for the various models, to reduce their poly counts as they get farther away? Or is this a feature provided by UE4?

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Anyway, I'm wondering if there's an MWM-written "quality degradation" system in place for the various models, to reduce their poly counts as they get farther away? Or is this a feature provided by UE4?

If i recall, different Levels of Detail (LOD) could be set for an in world 3D object. The farther that 3D object is from you, the lower and lower the mesh quality becomes, for those that dont know. I'm guessing you might already know this Lin. ;)

I have to check but UE4 might also use Culling to check if a 3D object should be skipped when the Drawing happens, like Car Seats inside of a Car if you dont have a clear Line of Sight to them. :)

Allot of people dont know this, but 3D engines (to my understanding) draw things in sort of layers.. like in Photoshop.
It tries to always draw object from furthest away, to the closes being drawn last... so.. if the closer object is transparent in any way, it just doesnt draw anything at that spot... and the object that was far away shows through. Sorta like Layers.

Of course this is just me oversimplifying it.. but you get the Idea. :)

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Quick question: will the

Quick question: will the speed at which Odo moves in the video be pretty much our standard movement speed in the game? I.e., to use CoX terms, the default speed between Walk and Sprint, leaving aside any travel powers?

If so, I'm pleased.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

If i recall, different Levels of Detail (LOD) could be set for an in world 3D object. The farther that 3D object is from you, the lower and lower the mesh quality becomes, for those that dont know. I'm guessing you might already know this Lin. ;)

I knew the concept, but didn't know the terminology.

Izzy wrote:

Allot of people dont know this, but 3D engines (to my understanding) draw things in sort of layers.. like in Photoshop.

That's basically an advanced form of the painter's algorithm, where you would draw the most distant things first, and then closer things later so they overwrite the more distant pixels. (Compare and contrast with the Z-buffering.) IIRC modern systems use both (you need Z-buffering to make polygons clip through each other properly, and the culling algorithm is similar to the painter's algorithm).

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Wow great work guys! Love

Wow great work guys! Love seeing little updates like this.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Quick question: will the speed at which Odo moves in the video be pretty much our standard movement speed in the game? I.e., to use CoX terms, the default speed between Walk and Sprint, leaving aside any travel powers?
If so, I'm pleased.

Yes, that is the base running speed.

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Submitting a big like to this

Submitting a big like to this update. The MWM project team work is definitely keeping with the spirit of CoX.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Cinnder wrote:
Quick question: will the speed at which Odo moves in the video be pretty much our standard movement speed in the game? I.e., to use CoX terms, the default speed between Walk and Sprint, leaving aside any travel powers?
If so, I'm pleased.

Yes, that is the base running speed.

Point of note: so far as I'm aware, the folks deciding much of that haven't actually decided on any particular speed yet. It is just the default speed of movement in the engine, which is trivial to adjust.


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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Izzy wrote:
If i recall, different Levels of Detail (LOD) could be set for an in world 3D object. The farther that 3D object is from you, the lower and lower the mesh quality becomes, for those that dont know. I'm guessing you might already know this Lin. ;)

I knew the concept, but didn't know the terminology.
Izzy wrote:
Allot of people dont know this, but 3D engines (to my understanding) draw things in sort of layers.. like in Photoshop.
That's basically an advanced form of the painter's algorithm, where you would draw the most distant things first, and then closer things later so they overwrite the more distant pixels. (Compare and contrast with the Z-buffering.) IIRC modern systems use both (you need Z-buffering to make polygons clip through each other properly, and the culling algorithm is similar to the painter's algorithm).

The engine combines pretty much all of these techniques, along with some others to boot. LODs are used to decide what even makes it into the rendering thread work area, and at least a fast-cull algorithm then runs against the results to trim out anything that is completely irrelevant -- which includes anything "facing away" unless two-sided textures (a.k.a. "backfaces" in some software) are enabled.

Z-buffer and painters fill are two of the most prominent, but there are a bunch of others as well, such as Z-sorting rules for use with hair sheets, or specialized controls for dealing with things like surfaces that are translucent *and* their material is refractive *and* they're at weird angles to the viewer (think of a green glass soda bottle, for example).

And probably some I don't even know are going on, frankly. UE4 is really pretty amazing on that front, and while our artists are good, the engine is a lot of the reason that things look *so* good this early in the process, because it removes a lot of the 'finish' work that otherwise takes a lot of time (and usually several years of professional experience to acquire the skill to do, *after* a full course of training).


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Something I happened to

Something I happened to notice in the vid, that really bugs me in other games, is the significant scaling issue between Odo and the Buildings(Particularly the doors to the buildings.) Now, I have no idea if Odo is suppose to be the average human height for the game, or if he happen's to be a freaky giant. So I'm not questioning anything at this point. Just wanted to say, keep an eye on how things scale to our Characters. Champions Online has some HORRIBLE scaling issues that drive me insane.

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Cooltastic wrote:
Cooltastic wrote:

Something I happened to notice in the vid, that really bugs me in other games, is the significant scaling issue between Odo and the Buildings(Particularly the doors to the buildings.) Now, I have no idea if Odo is suppose to be the average human height for the game, or if he happen's to be a freaky giant. So I'm not questioning anything at this point. Just wanted to say, keep an eye on how things scale to our Characters. Champions Online has some HORRIBLE scaling issues that drive me insane.

+ at least 100, maybe 1,000

Farkakte scaling bugs me constantly in games.

Creates a constant flaw in naturalness of look and feel that tugs at the threads holding immersion together.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Yeah, I hated the

Yeah, I hated the ridiculously small airfields in CoX, and how most of them had a building or terrain at the end of the runway. But then again, big airport runways are a couple of miles long, which would take a minute and a half to traverse at 90 MPH.

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Neutropolis even featured a

Neutropolis even featured a teeny tiny airfield that was partially under a bridge and which ended in water. Even though it had multi-engine fixed wing business planes parked on the ground around it, the only thing you could safely fly in/out of there would have been a helicopter.


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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Yeah, I hated the ridiculously small airfields in CoX, and how most of them had a building or terrain at the end of the runway. But then again, big airport runways are a couple of miles long, which would take a minute and a half to traverse at 90 MPH.

A proper international airport is, quite literally, fully half the size of the *entire* city as currently planned (i.e. "until we finish both launch and non-launch zones and need to expand further").

As for the other scaling issues, all I can say is "we'll do what we can", but when it comes down to it, playability has to trump realism; if it were otherwise, we'd be building a simulator, not a game. That doesn't mean that we won't do everything we reasonably can to prevent the two from coming into conflict, but there are always going to be *some* situations where having to pick one at the cost of the other simply isn't avoidable. The real test of skill is how well you can make people forget that when they're not looking specifically for it.

Besides, at least in CoV the airfields were almost universally access points for VTOL fliers, anyway. If they'd just skipped putting small planes in the hangar area they'd have been fine. :P


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As a separate sidenote, I

As a separate sidenote, I would also like to point out just how much of a PITA it is to try to work out interior geometry for buildings that allows for both "eye-level view from a minimum-height character" *and* "over the shoulder trail cam for a max-height character" without one or the other (or usually both) getting vertigo, constant camera collisions with the building, strange clip-through issues, the ability to "spy out" stuff on the other side of a supposedly solid wall, etc.

Thankfully, the ongoing level of incidental / collateral damage to the city structures means that most of the places that oddly-sized folks are likely to be found have had to have at least one and often multiple significant repairs done, leading to an easy excuse for ADA/APA compliant access ways...


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DeathSheepFromHell wrote:
DeathSheepFromHell wrote:

A proper international airport is, quite literally, fully half the size of the *entire* city as currently planned (i.e. "until we finish both launch and non-launch zones and need to expand further").

Which is why I hope there simply won't be an airport in-game.

DeathSheepFromHell wrote:

Besides, at least in CoV the airfields were almost universally access points for VTOL fliers, anyway. If they'd just skipped putting small planes in the hangar area they'd have been fine. :P

This. And I figure MWM isn't going to make the same botch. Just having helipads in some places is more than enough.

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Which is why I hope there simply won't be an airport in-game.

No one likes Sea Crafts? :<

Taxi too. ;)

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At least two of the dev are

At least two of the dev are pilots; we've had internal discussion about airport layouts. Still not sure if there will be one inside the 'normal' city, and if it is it will have to be small and with a too-short runway, but we'll at least be able to avoid some of the sillyness that shows up in other games. May even have a working VASI :-)

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Beamrider wrote:
Beamrider wrote:

At least two of the dev are pilots; we've had internal discussion about airport layouts. Still not sure if there will be one inside the 'normal' city, and if it is it will have to be small and with a too-short runway, but we'll at least be able to avoid some of the sillyness that shows up in other games. May even have a working VASI :-)

Hehe.. i'm not a pilot, but i googled this and though it was a funny rhyme.

Quote:

As the saying goes,

Red over White, you're alright. (on glidepath)
Red over Red, you're dead. (too low)
White over White, you're out-of-sight (too high)

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I'm thinking a full-sized

I'm thinking a full-sized airport will fit quite nicely over there on the western border, with the terminal just inside the playable area, and the runways and all the rest being behind the invisible wall. Sort of like how much of Millennium City (and Windsor, Canada, to the south of the border) is visible but not accessible in CO.

Until the game expands out around it, that is. ^_^

Speaking of Millennium City, I just mapquested Detroit and found DTW is (according to the scale) about 5 kilometers across. And well beyond the playable area found in CO. So no airport in the mapped area isn't too crazy of an idea.

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Which is why I hope there simply won't be an airport in-game.

No one likes Sea Crafts? :<

Taxi too. ;)

I raise you a Caspian Sea Monster.

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Ohhh.. https://youtu.be

Ohhh.. https://youtu.be/Wy0UNvL37vo?t=1m55s
it could carry 1000 people? :o

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Ohhh.. https://youtu.be/Wy0UNvL37vo?t=1m55s
it could carry 1000 people? :o

Not comfortably...

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Dragonflight wrote:
Dragonflight wrote:

I'm really impressed with what I'm seeing. The test block looks wonderful, and it's great to see the animation issues being identified and dealt with swiftly.
On a purely secondary note, how many people were hoping the character would start flying when the soundtrack began to pick up? I think that's the hallmark moment I'm waiting for. When the character first flies over a completed city section. Here's hoping... :)

That's a beautiful thought. Reviewing the footage I can now imagine an advertisement starting with Odo jumping off a building. Just as he begins to fall the music picks up, he morphs into a caped hero, and takes flight.

I had a similar thought when he was running and the camera was to the side. For a moment I thought I was about to see "Super Ninja Run".

I can't wait to play.

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Hehe.. i'm not a pilot, but i

Hehe.. i'm not a pilot, but i googled this and though it was a funny rhyme.
Quote:
As the saying goes,
Red over White, you're alright. (on glidepath)
Red over Red, you're dead. (too low)
White over White, you're out-of-sight (too high)

Ahh, yes, that's an old one (VASI's are very old-school technology). Was also wondering about putting in a VOR ground station, just because they look like a 1950's supertech gadget.

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Cowboy VOR/DME serving DFW

Cowboy VOR/DME serving DFW Airport.

Google Maps street view of the Cowboy VOR.

Always thought this thing looked like a Ground Based Stellar Converter out of Master of Orion II.


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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Izzy wrote:
Ohhh.. https://youtu.be/Wy0UNvL37vo?t=1m55s
it could carry 1000 people? :o

Not comfortably...

Well, it is Soviet. Comfort is not the priority, results are.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Izzy wrote:
Ohhh.. https://youtu.be/Wy0UNvL37vo?t=1m55s
it could carry 1000 people? :o

Not comfortably...

Well, it is Soviet. Comfort is not the priority, results are.

A US proposal for a sorta similar vehicle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Pelican

________
This looks like a job for SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSE!!!!!!!

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Me want Hover Bike :( video:

Me want Hover Bike :( video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpko3CPHonQ

No wait... I rather have the in game Dr Tychee use Showmanship to make his entrance with Music style:
https://youtu.be/lx_vWkv50uk?t=43s

Think of it as taking control over the electronic things in the environment, either to Scare or to Delight! ;D

I guess a little like Electro's music from the Amazing SpidarMan 2, but actually show the music source as electronic devices in the environment. ;)

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Great progress team!

Great progress team!
I couldn't help but notice the texture of the walls and rooftops. I see you are not ignoring the physical objects in the game by allowing interactions. The leaves shaking on impact was perfect, i would like to see how you handle impact on a a car or building.

It also looks like you are paying attention to natural body mechanics, plus physics. Could we possibly see contact between the characters, similar to a football game.... Enabling bumping, grappling, pushing, etc.

Keep doing what you're doing, great formula. Congrats on the feature in Massively Overpowered!

RAN Ink

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Izzy wrote:
Ohhh.. https://youtu.be/Wy0UNvL37vo?t=1m55s
it could carry 1000 people? :o

Not comfortably...

Well, it is Soviet. Comfort is not the priority, results are.

Well, if we're talking about Soviet gear, the Antonov An-225 Mriya has always been my favorite...

And even though it's huge, you can park it on the grass because the landing gear is so over-specced.

The old Saturn video game Gungriffon used these to airdrop mecha.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

And keep in mind, even if we can't do "randomized trees" today does not mean we cannot later. Once we identified the Douglas Fir as the issue, took under a minute to swap it with a replacement.

Well put and perhaps one of my unspoken points. As best I recall COH was released without an auction house, map (or at least it needed a ton of work), sidekicks, exemplars, flashback (anyone remember Cavern of Transcendence Trial in Hollows without those last 3?), ninja run, and on and on. The important thing was that it was playable and fun. We played and lived through the updates as the game came of age. Even the ones we didn't like so much... I still miss my fire/ice tank and 6 slotted abilities. Anyway, I can't wait to play and to see how this game evolves over time.

"THE TITANS ARE COMING! THE TITANS ARE COMING!"

jsnforce
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Hey, so this is my first post

Hey, so this is my first post since checking back in on this project. I don't know what I'm seeing as far as progress, but the quality looks amazing. I'm currently tolerating Champions Online but the game is a shadow of what was promised and that's a damn shame. I need Titans to be awesome, and it's looking like I won't be disappointed.

whiteperegrine
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welcome back, jsnforce. :)

welcome back, jsnforce. :)

Kiyori Anoyui
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I hope the updates from now

I hope the updates from now will be more like this, it was so awesome looking at the in-dev game and the current status, everything is so beautiful!

One question though, why are the trees so small?? xD
(I know that these won't be in the final product and are merely for testing)

The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One

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whiteperegrine
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Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

One question though, why are the trees so small??

Doc T's latest hairbrained scheme to take over the world.

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