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Discuss: The Advice We're Listening To.

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JWBullfrog
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Discuss: The Advice We're Listening To.

In future posts, we hope to share more of the videos, articles, and other things that we've found useful or inspiring during development of City of Titans. But, for now, enjoy.

All Purpose Frog

Wait until you see the... nope, that would ruin the surprise.

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Yeah, I saw this yesterday,

Yeah, I saw this yesterday, and was nodding along the entire time. It's not new information for me, but it should at least calm the naysayers somewhat.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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That channel is really good

That channel is really good for more than just devs. It's given me a good insight on how to judge games in general, and their development process for the few that gives such details out.

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I want to link back to that

I want to link back to that video every time someone asks 'Why can't they just show us X' from now on.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch

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Darth Fez
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It's primarily a case of lack

It's primarily a case of lack of exposure, I think. If we were able to see game development shows akin to all the renovation or DIY house shows, the reaction would probably be different. I doubt anyone would consider moving into a house that's only 70% done and there's a big question whether the sewage line is up to code.

... and then realize that the house they're talking about? That's the one everyone is getting. Absolutely, positively can't live without a bathtub? Well, guess what?

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TitansCity
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I must say it's a

I must say it's a interresting video. And, i recognize the drawing style ^^ The same as the kickstarter drawing style !
But, it's not about CoT and its development unfortunately. I'm disappointed, i must admit. If i would like to have information about games developpment, i probably could find what i want (and in my native langage). Really, i follow the game, not the games developpement in general and i don't know why MWM find this interesting to put this as an "update"... moreover, we wait 3 weeks instead of the usual 2 weeks to have an update which is , from my point of view, not an update :x
And, when i read : "In future posts, we hope to share more of the videos, articles, and other things that we've found useful or inspiring during development of City of Titans" i wonder "why ?". No, really, why ? don't you have enought subject to create regular updates instead of using some articles or video that people could find from themselves if they want ? It's the game "we" are interested in, not the work of some other. (i must precise i'm speaking for my own ^^).
I am disappointed (and also because i can't give this news to the french community. more than the half will not understand what the video says even with the automatic translation).


Suivez l'avancement du jeu City of Titans en Français sur https://titanscity.com
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Brutum
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Is this an update?

Is this an update?

Puny Heroes.

TitansCity
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Instead of one of our normal

Suivez l'avancement du jeu City of Titans en Français sur https://titanscity.com
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Brutum
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I hope it's not.

I hope it's not.

Puny Heroes.

DesViper
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Brutum wrote:
Brutum wrote:

I hope it's not.

Eh, It's a press release ;)

I wouldn't call this an update, it's not on KS


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Brutum
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I would hope so, because it's

I would hope so, because it's just some youtubers video and it doesn't tell me anything going on with the actual game.

Puny Heroes.

McJigg
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Brutum wrote:
Brutum wrote:

I would hope so, because it's just some youtubers video and it doesn't tell me anything going on with the actual game.

It's a video that came out recently that clearly explains why we're not shown as much as we may like. They thought it was relevant to followers of the game to better understand how the game is formed and why they can't 'just show some combat' or other features often asked about.

It's not about CoT directly, but it's relevant to anyone following a game in development.

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It is this weeks update.

It is this weeks update. Well, it takes place of this weeks update, officially.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

avelworldcreator
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It's not on the front page

It's not on the front page you notice. That's where official updates are posted. No, this is just a hard-to-place informational posting. The is a second video done by Extra Credits that speaks about "Early Release" games and is referred to in this one. It's also relevant. I'm more surprised it wasn't posted along this one. I can post the link to that if necessary.

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The video pretty much

The video pretty much explains why there isn’t an update.

It’s like, super meta.

Catherine America
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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

The video pretty much explains why there isn’t an update.

It’s like, super meta.

Lol...right? That's exactly what I thought.

Producing "routine" updates/demos for clients?
Folks not on the producer/develop side often have no idea...

(Currently developing the Sapphire 7 Initiative)

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It explains why 'real'

It explains why 'real' updates only happen once a month. In-between we'll often release bits of graphics that naturally cropped up during development we think you'll like, sure. But in this case, we really wanted to promote this video, for the reasons many here have stated.

--------------------------

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Dark Cleric
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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

The video pretty much explains why there isn’t an update.

It’s like, super meta.

Should we start a tracker for how many times this video is linked, by devs or forumites, whenever anyone asks about updates?

EDIT: SARCASM

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

Brutum
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I feel like everything in

I feel like everything in this video I've already heard get repeated by people on these forums a thousand times over by now. Not that this was made for me. At least it's not an actual 'update' though, I guess.

Puny Heroes.

Planet10
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It is important for people to

It is important for people to understand the cost (in this case: effort & time) of Frankensteining a demo together with enough guard rails and polish for a public release (like an E3 demo or those old teaser cds you used to get in gaming magazines). That is essentially what the Extra Credits video is talking about >> using resources to produce something that is not going to be the end product. The other component that was not talked about was the messaging required to frame the user experience when outsiders get their hands on that product. It can help shape the public perception of many things (faith in the product/studio, desire to become an advocate to support or trash the game), so making every effort to guide the user to your desired result is important.

Now, what the Twitch streams have shown us are dev environments. Essentially just whatever modules necessary to work on (and showcase) the features that the dev was working on at the time. They were not builds of the game in the public's understanding of what a game looks like normally. IIRC, Dr.Tyche announced that all of the modules/components/resources were compiled together for the first time back in late summer (august?) in order to create what we would recognize as the first build of the Character Creator (avatar builder). That is still not a complete build of the game, but it is enough to create a costumed character.

What Warcabbit demoed to ooglymoogly could be considered to be an example of what the Extra Credits video talked about. Was it necessary to publicly demo? Maybe yes or no, but it was important for devs to share their excitement about the progress and they wanted to involve the community in some way. I am glad they were able to make that meetup happen, it showed a good amount of progress and got the community whipped up (good & bad). But to get back to the EC video topic, this demonstration of the CC took time and effort away from the dev team to produce a usable product that users will not see in the game's released form. MWM was going to create this type of build regardless just to verify the integration process, so cost in those terms is probably negligible. The more relevant cost is in exposure (the good & bad) that MWM minimized by having a team member present to guide the discovery process. I would argue that the cost was worth it given the nature of the CoT project.

Now to talk directly to Shadow Elusive's quote.

Shadow Elusive wrote:

It explains why 'real' updates only happen once a month. In-between we'll often release bits of graphics that naturally cropped up during development we think you'll like, sure. But in this case, we really wanted to promote this video, for the reasons many here have stated.

The updates that showcase a video are most likely what Shadow Elusive is talking about here. It does take time & effort to produce these videos (planning out what to show, how to show it, recording them, editing them, uploading them, maybe run things past legal or the braintrust). What I would caution against is using the Extra Credits video topic as an excuse to communicate less often with the community. The community understands (or should now understand given this thread topic) that we will not get big shiny videos or demos every couple weeks or every month, but it also should not stop altogether. We appreciate the effort, and we also have to honor the cost that MWM incurs when they release these updates.

Keeping the community in the loop keeps the dream alive.

"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Keeping the community in the loop keeps the dream alive.

This.

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It's also Historical,

It's also Historical, considering how many times Forumites have quoted or linked Extra Credits videos to 'instruct' MWM on how to do the job.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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The video is accurate and

The video is accurate and should be considered. But there is one angle it doesn't touch. There is a cost that CoT will bear more than almost any other gaming company because of its nature; unpaid and volunteer. That cost is linked to the timetable. While we have to keep in mind the valid points from the video, there is a cost that comes along with it in the form of potential future player burnout and loss of that future income. Despite the video being true and accurate, the team can't follow it's advice 100% if they want to keep enough of their fans to be financially viable. Their development time is going to be drastically longer than nearly all other games so if they keep reminding us of the video and that we shouldn't be asking to see things...valid or not people will leave for that very reason. Unfortunate as it is people look at the 6 years of past development and need to SEE things to keep going; juggling that while trying to enforce the views from the video is going to be nearly impossible from here on out. Missing the FALL 2018 date was a big hit, and if they use this video to, perhaps even rightfully, justify pushing it off to maybe FALL 2019 or even Winter 2020...even if that is what is best for development that is not going to be what's best for the financial viability of company IMO.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

Unfortunate as it is people look at the 6 years of past development and need to SEE things to keep going...

This is true, but it's also beyond MWM's control. My understanding is that they're largely on track with where most game developers would be. The thing that most people don't seem to realize is that the typical games are announced is well after development has begun. Unfortunately they see that Wildstar was announced in 2011 and launched in 2014, so those six years look like a really long time. They don't bother to learn that development on Wildstar began in 2005.

People who 'leave' can always come back. If they don't, they don't. It is what it is. Should CoT not succeed, I doubt MWM wants it to be because they didn't deliver the best game that they could create.

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As a compromise, I'd suggest

As a compromise, I'd suggest more updates that are about the 'rules' of the game. Things like Momentum, Augs & Refs, Alignment & Reputation, subscription rewards, etc. The sort of stuff Tannim often posts in threads to try to clear up misconceptions and wild surmise. We've had past updates on some of these, but I suspect there is more to say about all of them, and perhaps aspects that have become more defined since they were last discussed. While these obviously still take time and effort to create, they could at least avoid requiring the extra effort of making videos and pulling together separate threads of code in different states of readiness.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

As a compromise, I'd suggest more updates that are about the 'rules' of the game. Things like Momentum, Augs & Refs, Alignment & Reputation, subscription rewards, etc. The sort of stuff Tannim often posts in threads to try to clear up misconceptions and wild surmise. We've had past updates on some of these, but I suspect there is more to say about all of them, and perhaps aspects that have become more defined since they were last discussed. While these obviously still take time and effort to create, they could at least avoid requiring the extra effort of making videos and pulling together separate threads of code in different states of readiness.

Personally I like those kinds of updates more than those that show of "shinies". While I'm not a theorycrafter I like to know the "limits" or capabilities of the game before entering it.

For the next one my vote would be for props and power aesthetics. I think that is the biggest area left in terms of planning a character that hasn't had a "What we can do" type post.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Personally I like those kinds of updates more than those that show of "shinies". While I'm not a theorycrafter I like to know the "limits" or capabilities of the game before entering it.

For the most part this is true. If you understand what it is you are looking at and what it takes to generate those shinies, that in & of itself can be informative of the progress. The gap between those two experiences can be something as simple as prefacing the video with the technical aspects of what you are about to view, why it is important and what to ignore (due to incomplete code or generic backfilling by the engine).

"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit

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An update once a month may

An update once per month may even be too much for this kind of project in my opinion, but it's the best choice: so the devs feel that after 3,5 weeks of work they need to show something, it makes them be regular even if they work a few hours per week.
A weekly update is absurd imho, they don't work full time so to show us the results of 3-15 hours of work for example doesn't make any sense (it could even slow some of them down too much, even if the video only takes one hour it may represent the 10% of the weekly work of that person, counterproductive).

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ThunderCAP wrote:
ThunderCAP wrote:

An update once per month may even be too much for this kind of project in my opinion, but it's the best choice: so the devs feel that after 3,5 weeks of work they need to show something, it makes them be regular even if they work a few hours per week.
A weekly update is absurd imho, they don't work full time so to show us the results of 3-15 hours of work for example doesn't make any sense (it could even slow some of them down too much, even if the video only takes one hour it may represent the 10% of the weekly work of that person, counterproductive).

You are overthinking it. A weekly update can be as simple as a text message stating "we are still moving forward and are currently working on server infrastructure and animations, no setbacks this week and war cabbit had a pastrami on rye. He said it was very good" no graphics, shinies or explosions. just saying we are still alive and on target. you dont even have to say what the target is. We had a lot of interest when there was something to look forward to, things have slowed way down with nothing to wait for. That is a problem in that after a while, you stop being part of the conversation in gen chat of other games as a game to be interested in.

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When I have to write a

When I have to write a Facebook post for my work it takes 30 minutes, due to avoiding errors and thinking of what to write and how to write it and the purpose.
I think you're underestimating time's flow, like you just write an SMS to your wife and it takes a few seconds but it's not like that when it's your work at stakes and time passes very fast.
"Wait me for dinner, I'm coming" That takes a few seconds. A work update that's going to be read by hundreds of peoples (and that you know are going to judge you) doesn't.
I didn't say it takes 1 day, I said 1 hour, and they work few hours per week, the risk that they need 5-10% of the time for the update is very real imho.

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Let's not forget that they

Let's not forget that they may need to run any update past two or three people. Suddenly even a "We're OK!" post becomes a process. And "no setbacks this week" may need confirmation from people who may not get back to them until next week.

As we've heard from Shadow Elusive on a few occasions, the way MWM is required to operate isn't without its frustrations. Not the least of which is volunteers suddenly going incommunicado.

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The alternatives seem to be

The alternatives seem to be no communication other than that of once every few months like valium online, ship of heroes which has a timeline ending in June of last year or maybe every couple of weeks we get a single picture to look at. We are already past 1 month after end of fall 2018, I wasnt talking about in depth interviews, just a "hey we are still working" If that is so needing of in depth meeting then we may not see a game for another 2 or 3 years.

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How long it takes someone to

How long it takes someone to consume material is a superminority fraction of the amount of time+tools+tech manuals it takes to create/produce/proof such material.

Speaking just for myself, a post that can take under 10 minutes to read can easily take an hour (or few!) for me to compose and proof.

Developer time is a FINITE resource.
Time spent "here" is time not being spent on "getting stuff done" that NEEDS doing (as opposed to merely "wants" doing).
This produces the Tyranny Of The Schedule phenomenon that pretty much any game developer (or engineer in almost any discipline) ought to be familiar with when it comes to collective projects.

Just because it's possible to read a post in 5 minutes, doesn't mean it only "costs" 5 minutes of developer time to produce that post ... so Be Careful What You Wish For.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
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ivanhedgehog wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:

The alternatives seem to be no communication other than that of once every few months like valium online, ship of heroes which has a timeline ending in June of last year or maybe every couple of weeks we get a single picture to look at. We are already past 1 month after end of fall 2018, I wasnt talking about in depth interviews, just a "hey we are still working" If that is so needing of in depth meeting then we may not see a game for another 2 or 3 years.

Why do you need them to tell you they're still working on it every week? Stop being a child.

The Altruist, Invulnerability/Super Strength Stalwart.

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alltrueist wrote:
alltrueist wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:

The alternatives seem to be no communication other than that of once every few months like valium online, ship of heroes which has a timeline ending in June of last year or maybe every couple of weeks we get a single picture to look at. We are already past 1 month after end of fall 2018, I wasnt talking about in depth interviews, just a "hey we are still working" If that is so needing of in depth meeting then we may not see a game for another 2 or 3 years.

Why do you need them to tell you they're still working on it every week? Stop being a child.

First of all, going from regular updates to total silence would (justifiably) worry those following the project, as that historically heralds a major setback or even total failure for a project. Just a “still working on it” kind of update is incredibly useful. Because as far as we (and you) know, they aren’t working on it.

Secondly, calling someone a child is uncalled for and says more about you than the person you’re insulting. There’s no need for an ad hominem attack like that in a civil discussion.

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So in summary - Games in

So in summary - Games in development are dramatically different from the final release. Wow, what a revelation.

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I'd agree getting a sterile

I'd agree getting a periodic, cut-n-paste "We're still working on it" message would be kind of pointless if they literally didn't bother to tell us anything else with such an "update".

But it doesn't seem like it'd asking too much for someone at MWM to write a quick couple of summary sentences per week that would be informative in some kind of positive way with quick little nuggets of digestible info. Something like "This week we managed to create several new costume sets" or "This week we finished up a new city zone map". No real in-depth details needed - just enough to make it "seem" like progress is being made would be enough for me.

Sure I like big data dumps (with vids and pics) as much as anyone. But on the weeks where there's nothing like that to show getting -anything- at all would still be nice.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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alltrueist wrote:
alltrueist wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:

The alternatives seem to be no communication other than that of once every few months like valium online, ship of heroes which has a timeline ending in June of last year or maybe every couple of weeks we get a single picture to look at. We are already past 1 month after end of fall 2018, I wasnt talking about in depth interviews, just a "hey we are still working" If that is so needing of in depth meeting then we may not see a game for another 2 or 3 years.

Why do you need them to tell you they're still working on it every week? Stop being a child.

I agree with Lothic and Atama. Even something as small as "Just cleaned up some code this week" is better than silence.
Remember, this was a kickstarter project with hundreds of thousands of dollars invested. Regular communication isn't an unreasonable request.

PR Team, Forum Moderator, Live Response Team

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alltrueist wrote:
alltrueist wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:

The alternatives seem to be no communication other than that of once every few months like valium online, ship of heroes which has a timeline ending in June of last year or maybe every couple of weeks we get a single picture to look at. We are already past 1 month after end of fall 2018, I wasnt talking about in depth interviews, just a "hey we are still working" If that is so needing of in depth meeting then we may not see a game for another 2 or 3 years.

Why do you need them to tell you they're still working on it every week? Stop being a child.

I had a reply for you but you cant discuss anything like an adult so you arent worth it. Come back when you can have an actual conversation.

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Let's get a bit civil again,

Let's get a bit civil again, okay?
No need for uncalled offenses in any sort of way. Just be cool and have a normal discussion.

Tech

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