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I don't think he was blindly stating it without any prior information. He said after it was confirmed (in this thread) that there are 23 plus extras. I don't think that will add up to 60 button presses as a standard thing without macros. And even among those 23 plus extras many sets will involve toggles and passives that won't need to be activated regularly or even on the bar.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings: Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Pain for you. Ok sure. I on the other hand prefer it. One of the most annoying, unfun, limitations for me is when a game goes "ok you have 20 viable skills. Which 4 do you want to use on this mission"
1) I liked CoH combat, read my post (my first main was a blaster full of attacks...).
2) The attacks you listed are not 1000, those are not even 10. You will not reach 30 even if you try to list all of your active powers, grey ones included (in my tray I permanently had the snow ball too).
CoH didn't have 1000 buttons to press, far from it, it's one of the first games that went "actiony", I'd say the true origin of your examples (GW2, ESO, NWO, BnS etc.).
You had fun because most attacks you used had meaning and different uses, from AOE to sniping to knockdown etc. Therefore you felt to decide when to use those.
I remember with my electric blaster, each situation got his power:
- one enemy escaping? If low hp I blasted him with both hands (high single damage, he is done). If high hp than block his feets with a circle of lightning.
- several enemies running away? Ball of lightning
- miniboss killing a mate running away? Tesla cage on the miniboss.
- need to grab one enemy in a group? The sniping bolt was there to one-shot or attract him.
Also another part of the fun surely came from the animations, amazing to watch which made us feel in an action movie.
You don't need 1000 buttons to get purpose and animations, nor City of Heroes had so many buttons as attacks and I was talking about attacks only. You could manage a tank with ONE bar of powers only if you wanted to (since those had so many toggles and passives).
In SWTOR or Archeage or FinalFantasyXIV you could never dream to use a char with one bar only, you need minimum four... filled with AOE attacks to randomly spam with few exceptions in-between.
Sorry but its not just a pain for me. its a pain for most people I've asked. you don't need to only use 4 skills but 30 is stupid.
Sorry to make you type so much. I was just responding with a bit of my own hyperbole in response to your "6 bars full of active skills and 60 buttons to press" comment which seemed completely out of place compared to your earlier comments and in direct opposition to Tannim's comment of [b]up to[/b] 23 powers.. If it was sarcasm or someone responded with your account without you knowing then I apologize for the misdirection and wasting your time because up til that point, I completely agreed with you.
- AR/Traps blaster lays a bunch of mines, zooms away, waits for tank to pull them and have you zoom back in to activate all at once, fps slideshow then big smile
- stay out of line of sight around a corner, use Wormhole to your position, Crushing field and Freezing rain along with your singularity and some Propel thrown in. Laugh at how powerless Lts and minions are to your might.
Any fears I had, Tannim has laid to rest. As [b]I've[/b] mentioned in previous comments, tab targeting + up to 23 powers + a little more movement (but still rooting to allow for better animations) sounds like a good formula to me, which is good since I was not donating to a twitch-based FPS or even action MMO(ala ESO, GW2, etc).
In short, I was fully aware of how many buttons CoH had and how many CoT plans to have but was put off by you telling a player how they should feel about the proposed structure.
[b][color=red]Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.[/color][/b]
Nobody is asking for only 4-5 skills. what people are asking for is PLEASE don't give us more than 25. becuase after that number it just becomes silly. the fear of it becoming a "twitch based game" which people so fear for some reason is unwarranted (unless MVM decides to make it so)
The power slots, travel power system (which is optional m), and your basic powers, and reserves have all been set.
There will be 23 power slots. Some archetypes could potentially have each of those be clickable powers but not all will be useful for every situation.
It is entirely possible to have some archetypes with builds that effectively have 4 powers they use actively and the others be toggles which are set-and-forget for the most part.
Here is the break down:
3 basic powers
4 optional trave power slots (with their own branch system)
Up to 5 Reaerves
23 Power Slots
Commanders will have additional basic pet commands.
In my opinion part of the depth of the game comes in how confgurable character builds can be. Some with many active powers, some with a few active powers which can be different depending on the situation and not used in every situation, and some that can be highly optimized. And alll can be viable.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Ok, so, I think the number of powers/twitch/rooting discussion is mostly played out because a) MWM has already stated where they are going to come down on these issues and b) most (not all, but most) seem to be happy with MWM's decisions.
So... what OTHER factors affect combat to make it awesome, and what are your thoughts on them.
For example--I loved the combat mobility created by things like Combat Jump, slotted Hover, and lunge/spring attacks. I also loved how attacks animated with movement so that I could, say, jump over a group of mobs and spin in the air and kick one while in the air before landing on the other side of the group.
Or how I saw an energy blaster target a mob who was then knocked into the air by the SS tank before the blaster's attack went off, and so the energy attack knocked the already airborne mob all the way across the room.
So epic. Playing CoH was often like watching a well choreographed action movie but you got to participate in the choreography.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Can you clarify exactly how many buttons we'll have for each character maximum? if its below 25 or 30 I shouldnt have a problem with it.
*gives two big thumbs up* Sounds good to me, as long as we can have multiple UI/Power Trays and are able to configure them in various ways to make sorting them a breeze.
Please do not limit the number of powers we can slot below the number of powers our characters know.
ZeeHero, I agree with your early statement that we shouldn't have to use a bazillion powers to be optimal - I have no truck with that at all. However, I do strongly disagree to any artificial limit on the number of powers we can slot. I don't want to impinge upon your desire for simplicity with optimization, however I also don't want you to impinge upon my desire to have all my options available to me.
The difference may be that I don't care whether all of my powers are optimal. I care whether they're fun and provide some variety. This is why WOW, TSW, and so many other MMOs have such boring combat - to me. Especially in a superhero game, I don't want my options artificially limited.
Now, if there are only so many powers my character can learn, which is what I understand Tannim to have communicated, I'm fine with that. I just don't want to be restricted to slotting less than that number in my power trays.
Formerly wyldhunt of CoH; Guardianite since I2.
Not to speak for a dev, but it's not that difficult to extrapolate given the numbers Tannim just listed in his post: At -MOST- 35 (not including UI elements devoted to Pets). But the devil is in the details:
The 3 basic powers: how useful the two basic attacks will be once you get a decent attack power chain going is anyone's guess - you might be able to remove them from the tray at a certain point. The Rest-equivalent will most likely be staying because faceplanting happens.
The travel power slots: I think most people will be maxing out one, though some might dip into a secondary for flavour or versatility. I think builds with 3 or 4 different travel powers will be comparatively rare.
The Reserves: These are basically this game's Inspirations/Potions/Scrolls - basically consumables. At least it's significantly less than CoH's 20 Inspiration slots at max level.
The power slots: We may eventually build towards 23 slots, but not all of those powers may be click powers. Some may be auto/passive powers (always on and no need to be on the tray), some may be toggles (which you can pretty much forget about unless they drop for some reason), some may be very situational, but in any case you won't likely have to shepherd all 23 in any given combat.
So at max level (and not including the Reserves) most people will probably be falling into the 20 to 25 range, with some possibly even less than that, some a few more. Sounds like a lot but that's less than 3 tray's worth of powers in CoH. Add on top of that the iconography of the power buttons meant you could tell exactly what the power was supposed to do at a glance, and you could arrange them how you would like (your favourite attack chain in tray 1, toggles grouped together, etc.) - it wasn't difficult to keep a handle on your powers. It looks like it will be much the same in CoT.
Oh I'd definitely want more than one travel power for most of my characters 2 would be the minimum.
On the topic of an artifical limit on the number of (in gameplay functional not RP) skills, this is a necessity. if there is a certain number of functional skills and if none of them are useless, using all of them will be required to perform at ones best. this is just the nature of the beast.
But if theres 23 slots total that really doesnt dip into the stupid territory that FFXIV is in, so I wouldn't mind that. 25 powers would make me happy in FFXIV yet we have over 30 which drives me crazy.
I wouldn't count Toggle powers as part of the 23. Toggle powers, at least in CoH, were powers you wanted to have on all the time. So you built your character to sustain them. You turned them on when you logged in and never touched them again, unless you died.
[
It isn’t possible to accurately quantify this. The number of powers you will need to track is dependent upon the AT, the primary, secondary, and tettiary choices and how many additional, optional additions you choose to use.
Technicallly speaking at the most basic difficulty and avoiding more strenuous content, a player could in theory, get away with only using 2 Basic Powers. It would be slow going and I doubt any fun over a long period of time.
Meanwhile you could have a build that will utilize every power from a primary, secondary, tertiary,and 5 resrrrves, but not all in every situation. Then there are reserves when available, several temporary and unique earned powers, 4 optional travel powes with a couple of tiered powers. As Insaid, then if you’re a Commander, several per commands on top of all of this).
The range of possibilities is literally 2 (but I seriously don’t recommend this), upwards of 50.
Again, not every power is used in every situation and each AT and each build can be optimized differently.
Splitting the difference you have something like 24. Which is an entirely theoretical number. There are just too many factors to consider.
I mean, if I were hard pressed to make a “minimalistic”, highly specialized build that didn’t use temp powers then perhaps something like 24 or so. That is with a couple being permanent and thus automatic, and around half bring toggles which are mostly set and forget, with several for situational use along with 5 Reserves and 1 optional travel power. Which boils down to around 12 powers that I would activiely track on a regular basis.
That isn’t a firm number either. It is a guess, an educated guess, but a guess none the less.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
There you have it. The number of powers you have to slot us entirely up to the player and how they want to build their character...
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
As is oft said on these forums by Devs and fans alike... options, options, options.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Still got my major worries on how something like that will affect the playability of the game but we won't know for sure till we see it at launch and if its a problem I'm sure adjustments will be made.
It worked well enough for the old game.
I played.a Master Mind with a full tray of inspirations (what was that 20 clickable uses?), 30 powers (regular and temp) along with 12 specialized scripted pet commands for combat.
I also had a character with a single target attack chain and separate AoE attack chain with 4 attacks in each, with mostly toggles that I never worried about for the rest of the powers and 3 utility powers.
Then I had a hero with 4 attacks, 3 utilities, and 4 clickable protections with several toggles. I hardly ever bothered with inspirations on that one.
Plenty of diversity and each were perfectly viable to play.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Inspiration management was kind of fun in that game. Do I keep 4 blues in case there's a Malta sapper or do I combine them to a purple to avoid the mez?
They dropped often enough that I always felt I could get what I wanted, when I needed, so long as I didn't go overboard.
Well it wasn’t a problem for most people that played COH for decade, so... yeah I’m not concerned in the least...
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
I have to disagree on that. I loved COH combat, much better than swtor or GW2.
SWTOR combat and GW2 combat were entirely different beasts and if you had to compare COH combat to one it would be closer to SWTOR.
I'd just like to say thank you to MWM for the amount of thought and time they've put into the design of this game. Every time Tannim talks about a system it shows how much 'under the hood' stuff has been planned and tested.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Yes and no.
CoH is very close to SWTOR combat at level 15-20. But when you reach level 40 SWTOR becomes a mess of milions of damage skills, at that moment CoH becomes closer to GW2 than SWTOR (and all the other tab-targets with all their spam of hundred of attacks).
I can't stand SWTOR at high level, but I also can't keep playing at GW2 either (it's the worse of the 3 imho, bad animations with no "impact feeling" play a big role there).
Instead I could play CoH forever, imho it was in the middle between full-tab-target and actiony-style; and CoT will be in the middle too apparently, which is great.
Regarding my hopes and desires for the combat,
I did like CoH combat and while there did feel like a bloat of buttons on some characters, on other characters you can remedy this with builds. Some characters could utilize more passive skills, some used toggles, others had duration buffs that you only have to use occasionally, etc. etc. In those regards, the bloat of buttons wasn't an "always pressing" ordeal but rather a "situational" ordeal. Like when you're waiting or preparing to go into a fight, you'll be applying buffs or using attack boosting skills....you're not using attacks at that point, you're using like 2-3 buttons. Then you charge into combat and now you're using a set of 4-8 different buttons. Things start to look hairy and you're looking at the 4-5 buttons on another tray you might try to use to help you out. Moral of the story is, at every possible moment, you're not pressing those 18 buttons but rather a portion of them as the situation changes. It only became a hassle for me when I swapped to a different character, they would invariably have a slightly different set of powers and arranged in a slightly different way that would be difficult to transition to if I hadn't played that character in a long time.
How CoT could change combat? Well, I'm personally flexible. If the combat is a carbon copy of CoH, sure. Haven't played a standard tab targetting animation rooting MMO in a while. Change it to be like Blade and Soul or GW2? Sure, I burnt out of those games primarily because of the lack of prominent build/character customization. Something completely different? Well, I'll give it a shot.
My primary hope is that they definitely learn lessons from the mistakes of CoH and make their mechanics flexible so the opportunities for creating new powers is not as confined. For example: spacial collision detection so maybe they could create powers like summoning a wall that can then block projectiles or even characters...or better attack movement mechanics so they won't have to jury rigg a teleport and PBAoE to simulate a shield charge attack. They need to look into the possible future of what they want to create and make sure the building blocks can be easily added.
Leo_G, check out the example powers under the character section in the navigation menu. One of the example Control Powers is a wall.
We will have tab-targeting with an optional hybrid model of active targeting with a soft and hard lock system. Not all powers will root you. Instead, your movement is decreased as you continue to attack until you either stop attacking or are rooted. Somempowers such as AoEs and upper tier powers will root.
Also, we can do more with the unreal engine when it comes to spatial collision detection. What it comes down to is the effect that can have on performance and how multiple people can use it (depending on what we want to do). Shield Charge for example was to be a straight line charge through targets. We can do that. But there are other things to consider for oerformance when things like that are done in a larger scale.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
This...
I tended to enjoy much more my characters that weren't quite so "clicky". I don't mind if they root, so long as the result is impressive :)
I'm getting long in the tooth, and my twitch skills aren't what they used to be.
In my experience, [url=https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Scrapperlock]Scrapperlock[/url] was most likely to occur on the characters that had enough "clicky" stuff to do that they never ran out of attacks to click ...
Since for a large number of us, Scrapperlock [b][i]was the whole point[/i][/b] of playing the game, being able to come up with a repeating attack chain that required the fewest number of buttons to click made a lot of sense (I liked to keep my attack chains down to 4-5 attacks before repeating if possible).
Q: What sound does a backpack EMP weapon make when it discharges?
A: Clickety-click.
Q: What sound does a mechanical keyboard make when a Player is experiencing Scrapperlock?
A: Clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click-clickety-click ... you get the idea ...
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Sabermetrics.
Make it so.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I had 4-5 chains of 4-5.
I had my melee boss killing single hard target chain, my minion mowing/aggro grabbing PBAOE chain, my hard target plus minions chain, my ranged AOE initial aggro grabbing (+ a little debuffing) chain, and just for fun my build up + fiery embrace ranged single target "pretend I'm a blaster for 10 seconds" chain. All laid out in ergonomic patters on my tray (bound in same patterns to keyboard) for nonstop but situational play.
So, as always options are best. If people who want one tray and 4-5 powers can do that while I have 4 trays with 20 powers, we all win.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Very much this. And this was for all my characters. I don't know if it was the variety in the powers we had available to us, the variety in the powers the enemies had, or some combination, but I never found combat in the old game to get repetitive the way it does for me in other MMOs. I absolutely loved the fact that we had powers that weren't used in an average fight, but were specifically situational. It felt very comic-book-like to me.
Actually, to be honest, although I had a range of chains as Empyrean did, they were pretty much just my opening salvos. Rarely did any chains occur after the first 15 seconds or so of combat. After that point, I was selecting powers based on the ever-changing situation.
Spurn all ye kindle.
While I'm also a big fan of "scrapperlock" (a term I'd never heard of until recently, and never had defined until today, so thanks Redlynne) I think the concern is when optimal play [i]requires[/i] those more complex button layout strategies. I never got that impression from City of Heroes, but I'll admit that very little of my play went above the 30s. As such, I think it's a fair concern to voice, in case the devs tended toward the more-is-better school of thought, so that multiple perspectives are considered.
~ DariusWolfe
Errant, TNT, Vibrant and Fluxion on Liberty
I am firmly in the "more powers is good" camp. DCUO and Neverwinter's 6 powers at a time max plan just turns me off (as does their mouse-driven movement, but that's another thread). Keep in mind, I started my MMO life on FFXI, on a PS2, with a controller, as a Whitemage with a scrolling list of 68 spell options, and kept my team alive. Pen and paper, I'm that guy in Hero system with a Multipower with 18 slots, and grumping about having to spend my XP on _skills_. I should screencap and show my LOTRO powerbars here at some point. :)
Yes that power mapped to shift-0 may not get played every session, but I know where it is, I know what it does, and it has a use, darnit!
Native of Triumph - Victory - Protector - Gladden - Dwarrowdelf - Tribble
Broad spectrum geek and Shadowy Advisor
Yes, my [u][url=https://www.deviantart.com/revanantmorituri]art gallery[/url][/u] is almost entirely screen captures. Tough.
Agreed.
I want power trays that are 12 slots wide, not 10 slots, so that I can do the following:
F1 F2 F3 F4 F5 F6 F7 F8 F9 F10 F11 F12
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - =
Then I can add modifiers of Shift+ and Control+ to those two trays and be able to address up to 72 different keyboard combos [i]as a standard feature[/i] of a common keybinding scheme that I'll be able to use across every single character I'm going to play.
Will I [i]need[/i] to use all of those slots?
Almost certainly not ... but I still want them available [i]just in case[/i] I find a use for them.
It's kind of like how there will be 10[sup]40[/sup] (or more) costume combinations I'll never ever think of using, but just because I'm not going to use all of them doesn't mean that's a good reason to throw them out of the costume creator. Having 72 addressable keybinds makes it a LOT easier to convenient ergonomic "groupings" of keybinds in configurations that are easy for my hand(s) to deal with on the keyboard, even if I'm not using all of those keybinds all the time on every character. Having that empty space available makes it easier to rearrange things to suit comfort and muscle memory, rather than needing a shoehorn to be able to fit everything into a much more limited set of options.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Ill have you know my keyboard has fully macroable keys throughout so its possible....maybe lol
For real though everyone, look at the differences in combat between Diablo and Path of Exile for an example of how you can have similar number of skills but one is more rewarding (at least feels that way)
Positioning and skill chaining are an important way of making it feel less monotonous, like you're more involved in the character and the combat you're facing. Its not simply "mash these 2 skills til they die"
20041004-20120910
I also think they're going with hexagonal power icons so the 12 slots would be nice symmetry :)
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