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Death of a Game - City of Heroes

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Interdictor
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Death of a Game - City of Heroes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YahAati0d2c

Looked around and didn't see this posted on the forums. Had a couple small mistakes in the history (or things might have been glossed over a bit for brevity), but still an interesting watch. Ah - nostalgia.

Ysangard
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Nice video.

Nice video.
Thanks Interdictor

notears
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Huh... you know that

Huh... you know that explanation of why NCsoft cancelled the game really put things in perspective. They weren't doing that well in the western world, and they wanted to focus on their Korean market, and they had to cut something. I guess it was easy to point them out as being this boogeyman of MMOs and paint a picture of them all being inept big wigs that cared more about money than people because we needed an answer at the time, and that made the most sense, to transmit all this fear and sadness into hate and aim it all at one company.... they had to chop off a hand to save the body and CoX was that hand. They didn't have the time to find someone else to buy it. Personally? I think we should forgive them...

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Much nostalgia.

Much nostalgia.

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Halae
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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Huh... you know that explanation of why NCsoft cancelled the game really put things in perspective. They weren't doing that well in the western world, and they wanted to focus on their Korean market, and they had to cut something. I guess it was easy to point them out as being this boogeyman of MMOs and paint a picture of them all being inept big wigs that cared more about money than people because we needed an answer at the time, and that made the most sense, to transmit all this fear and sadness into hate and aim it all at one company.... they had to chop off a hand to save the body and CoX was that hand. They didn't have the time to find someone else to buy it. Personally? I think we should forgive them...

Near as I can tell, people were conflating NCSoft and Nexon at the time, which is why so many people related to CoH lambasted Korean market practices. Nexon has a long history of buying out games, loading them up with an incredible amount of pay-to-win bull, and then abandoning the game in question when it hemorrhages players so that they can use the profits they made from that game to buy out another game. I understand it's not an uncommon practice, but Nexon is the company that codified it, and since NCSoft is another Korean company people weren't looking at the facts and insulting NCSoft about it.

I feel it was a bad idea on their part just let the game die without selling it to somone, and I don't know what they were thinking, but that also means I don't know the reasons they had behind it. The trick is that people - particularly corporations - are intelligent enough that there's generally reasons for the sorts of things they do. To assume that there isn't isn't looking at the big picture.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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I wonder if there will be

I wonder if there will be cinematics like that in CoT ? :) Where we'll see famous heroes to admire like Miss Liberty, psychée or Captain idontrememerhisname ^^

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Lin Chiao Feng
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I'll keep things civil and

I'll keep things civil and hold my comments. Though I would point out that an executive that can't plan ahead enough to sell something instead of taking it as a total loss is incompetent. (Unless, of course, there were outside incentives, e.g. tax deductions, that made sale a worse option.)

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As I play armchair

As I play armchair quarterback on the "Why did they kill COX?" question, I think the decision came from the sum total of a number of smaller issues, not any one major problem.

1. Given the mindset of the people who owned it, the options on the table were basically either kill it or keep it. I don't believe the theory that selling it to someone else was ever seriously considered. I don't know much about Eastern culture and mores, but selling your business to someone else so that they can then, in theory, run it better than you did and make more money is something to be avoided for the public shame factor alone. If you think it's POSSIBLE that such could happen, you either keep the game and make that money yourself or kill it and cut your losses, you don't show everyone how incompetent you are by selling it to someone else and watching them make a good run of it. On the other side of that coin, if you sell it and the buyer doesn't make money and it still dies, you've now gained a reputation as a seller of "bad" intellectual property and future partners and buyers will be wary. It's like in sports trading a player you know is not as good as their name recognition would suggest for a bunch of draft picks. The person who gets the draft picks is usually the winner of that trade, long term, and the team that gets the aging star always feels the sting of "we've been had", or at least they hear that sentiment from their fans. So selling out is a no-win scenario, you're either selling a star player who is worth keeping or you're selling damaged goods to whomever is dumb enough to offer you value in return for it, and in either case you lose something. The WORST case scenario woul dhave been if they had sold out to some crappy company that tried to twist the playerbase's "udder" for eery last cent they could until it truly died. I'm at least happy THAT didn't happen.

2. Its my guess that the plan all along had been for the game to run for 5-10 years then be replaced by CoX2, which they made sure they legally retained the rights to. I mean, graphics were a lot better in 2012 than they were in 2004, and the game would have needed a big upgrade in that department, which would only have been accomplished by making of CoX2. The only problem was, CoX, although profitable, was not making enough money to justify investing in CoX2. CoX was paying for itself and a little extra, but not enough extra to make a CoX2.

3. Revenues were still in the black, but they were decreasing over time. I think the game made less money overall after it went F2P than it had been making as a sub-only game in it's first few years. That's not a good sign. It's better to kill it BEFORE you get to the point where you're operating it at a loss as opposed to after.

4. The idea of opportunity cost came up in the video, but I personally don't buy that. I mean, if they had retained the services of the vast majority of the people responsible for making and maintaining CoX, then I could see it. As I understand it, the whole CoX team was just axed, weren't they? As such, there was no opportunity cost, everyone making COX was either making COX or gone, it's not like they needed those people in other areas making other games. The only opportunity cost was that the upper level execs needed to think and talk about CoX now and then, which was probably part of their workday they felt wasn't worth it.

5. They wanted the other games they were launching at the time to be be smash hit successes right out of the gate, as any company does. Since many gamers don't play more than one game at a time, killing CoX made sense insofar as it gave the gamers one less option at a time when they really wanted GW2 to be widely adopted by the fans of MMO games. While alienating a lot of CoX fans, many of whom were like "NOT BUYING NCSOFT EVER AGAIN", they were still "getting out of their own way" in the sense that the gaming public at large, many of who thought CoX was dead before it actually died, no longer had any reason, officially, to buy or play CoX. For the new players coming up into the market, this meant less competition which in turn meant more people buying GW2, in theory.

6. To NCSoft, it had become their "The Ramones". To explain that, The Ramones were a punk band of the 1980s which though wildly popular in some countries, never gained AS MUCH popularity in the US as they had worldwide. Oddly, this band which had cut its teeth playing Bowery bars in NYC like CBGB's couldn't quite hit "superstardom" in their own country, despite being THAT big in some others. Just as the US audience never really appreciated The Ramones, at least not while they were touring and making records, the Korean gamer audience never really liked CoX that much, and ultimately it was Korean business people making the decisions. So despite how much we all loved CoX, they just didn't get it. It's easier to kill a project when you personally don't get why other people like it so much.

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I had always been under the

I had always been under the impression that it was because NCSoft took a huge hit on their quarterly reports (due largely to the marketing push for GW2), and knee-jerk offered up CoX as a sort of sacrificial offering to assure stockholders they were "taking action" to counter that deficit.

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Responding to Radiac:

Responding to Radiac:

1. I strongly believed that there was a "someone will lose face if they sell it, that's why they're twisting the knife" factor at the time it was happening. Almost certainly they weren't serious about selling it, or they would have said something in a press release (nothing drives up bids like buyers thinking they've got competition). (There's also the logistical issue that the servers and account infrastructure were NCSoft property, not Paragon's, and would have required nontrivial work to transfer.)

2. The game got a significant graphics upgrade in COH: Freedom. It was really noticeable in Praetoria. The devs frequently bragged about their "Type-R Coders" on the team. But everyone still had mitten hands.

4. Paragon wasn't told until August 31 that the axe had fallen, and that was their last day and their dev access, even on the forums, were locked out. There were job fairs held over the next couple days. That dev team was dissolved super fast; they didn't do that when Tabula Rasa was axed* at the end of November 2008. Positron mentioned that this wasn't something they expected, and he had just approved an art package for the next issue the day before.

5. They were handing out free accounts for Aion with the shutdown of Tabula Rasa. Goes to pattern, Your Honor.

6. Same with Tabula Rasa. When they killed it, they cut ties with the Garriotts (Richard's brother had been brought on to manage their North American efforts, not just Tabula Rasa) and even issued a false statement from Richard Garriott along with the shutdown announcement while Richard was in Kazakhstan in quarantine before his Soyuz trip.

So yeah, I don't expect a non-Korean property to ever fare well in NCSoft's hands. And I'm thoroughly not interested in Korean MMOs.

* That took three months (servers went down for the last time at the end of February 2009) and the devs stayed on more or less until the end. They even took some in-development work and pushed it out hotfix-style before the last day, and some devs that had already left came back for the last day to spawn mobs all over the place for folks to shoot and have one last big party on the New York map.

[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

4. Paragon wasn't told until August 31 that the axe had fallen, and that was their last day and their dev access, even on the forums, were locked out. There were job fairs held over the next couple days. That dev team was dissolved super fast; they didn't do that when Tabula Rasa was axed* at the end of November 2008. Positron mentioned that this wasn't something they expected, and he had just approved an art package for the next issue the day before.

I seem to recall their Twitter account announcing a power set unlock code giveaway that very morning.

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Radiac
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SisterSilicon wrote:
SisterSilicon wrote:

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
4. Paragon wasn't told until August 31 that the axe had fallen, and that was their last day and their dev access, even on the forums, were locked out. There were job fairs held over the next couple days. That dev team was dissolved super fast; they didn't do that when Tabula Rasa was axed* at the end of November 2008. Positron mentioned that this wasn't something they expected, and he had just approved an art package for the next issue the day before.
I seem to recall their Twitter account announcing a power set unlock code giveaway that very morning.

WAs it a power set, or the Kirby Dots effect? I seem to remember those two things happening in fairly short timeframe, the Kirby Dots thing and the big shutdown announcement.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

3. Revenues were still in the black, but they were decreasing over time. I think the game made less money overall after it went F2P than it had been making as a sub-only game in it's first few years. That's not a good sign. It's better to kill it BEFORE you get to the point where you're operating it at a loss as opposed to after.

If you go by the financial reports, they had the initial spike for F2P conversion, but the following quarter, it had dropped to about the same level as *pre* F2P, if not a bit lower.

If I remember correctly, the Player layout breakdown at the time of closure was (according to Mercedes Lackey when she posted over on the Titan Network forums) was 40K subs, 20K premium (former sub/F2P players), 40K F2P players.

Pre F2P, you could estimate that there were about 50-60K subscribers (earnings/sub cost).... so I guess that can tell you as to how many people stopped/still played/bought stuff on F2P account (to make it a premium account)

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