Actions with more permanent results are based on choices made during story through play, not by animations. It is also why the term defeat is used as it is agnostic and allows the player to interpret their actions in general. As a game reaching for a wide audience which ranges from children to elderly we must also be aware of video game ratings and avoid the resulting "real world simulation" of literal interpretation of the use of various visual effects like fire, guns, edged weapons and more.

There are more reasons why choosing a damage type is not being done on the player level other than the possibility of Fotm builds. If the animations drive the type of effect on characters, both player and non-player, there can be rather large ramifications. From constant costume swaps to negotiate content on the fly, to other players beneficial effects hampering the over-all effectiveness of a character based on the animation used. "Fotm" for pve can be more of a disaster once players figure out not only optimal attack chains of a given set, but optimum damage type to pair with those chains if its possible to choose damage type based purely on animation, we need time to tune the environment based on live play, our base power design and simulations get us our expected results, but live play will reveal the strengths and weaknesses of design - that is for live player builds both offensively and defensively and how npc interactions occur. There is also the matter of set design itself, if damage type is chosen by animation, then the base power set has to be designed to be damage agnostic which actual serves as a limiter on what a set can be designed to do mechanically. Instead of our example of designing a Bunring Set with damage over time, we have to make sure all animations that are applicable have a damage over time effect to use and when arguments come up as to whether a fire animations should cause more damage over time because it burns over time over ice, while ice has to have some cold theme effect to slow the target, now we begin to tread into territory that animation drives all the effects of a power from damage to non-damage effects, its a slippery slope when it comes to fundamental design of powers.

That being said, we do recognize that players may want to alter their damage type down the line through play, which is where the concept of Power Set Augments came into play where an Augment can be slotted into the Power set that changes a portion of a damage type of the set to another damage type.

With my sword I use the flat of the blade (too fast for you to see) to deal subdual damage so I don't kill I defeat (knock unconscious).
With my AR I use rubber bullets.
With my claws I attack so fast and with such savagery that I don't actually hit you, instead my attacks wear down your willingness to fight over time and you submit.
Or I do hit you but at the end I don't use the full force of my attack and you crumple to the ground in pain, but still alive.

All of the above are defeats.

But if you are a really bad person then I will turn my blade and use the sharp edge, use lethal ammo or actually hit you with my claws.

Let me try to break this down to hopefully clarify a few things.

In the game, enemies are defeated. Defeated is agnostic as to whether they are dead or not. That leaves what defeated means up to the player. This is the general case.

There will be points where choices are made, those choices will dictate the alignment of the character. The alignment system deals with a combination of alignment and "morals". This covers the spectrum of hero to villain and lawful to unlawful - it is multi-axis in that its possible to be an unlawful hero (hello vigilante). When it comes to these more specific choices, some of them may be permanent as a result - such as death of an npc. To be clear I'm not in the Comp dept so I don't know what the exact choices they are providing, but I assume based on conversations that I'm not far off base here.

Further more, player actions will also dictate their status with parituclar factions. Alignment is factored into this, but it may be possible there are say, police - the general faction whom an unlawful hero is disliked by, but a few particular NPCs who are let's shall we say, more inclined to support such a type of person. Its not all black and white, but lots of grey involved here.

If the desire is to take on other players in an attempt to defeat (for a purpose), that is something called pvp.
But truth to be told there has to be fuzzy lines here since this is a T for Teen MMO that also wants to provide distinction in actions of the player to determine alignment. So yes in general its defeat and you the player must hand wave away any judgement of what you see another player doing, you have no idea if their defeated opponent is dead or arrested only that it is defeated hence your character only knows that the opponent

As with any medium a certain amount of suspension of disbelief is necessary. Yes you will see people shooting lasers, bullets, using huge menacing weapons, apply suspension of disbelief and your judicious reasoning so that it makes sense for you as a player.

When it comes to most video games, MMOs in particular it shouldn't be approached with the mind set of how do I bend the system to suit my needs, but I how do apply my needs to work within the system.

oOStaticOo wrote:

Supposedly the missions you get will somewhat be determined by the alignment you have. If you are evil then you will have missions to rob banks and set fires to buildings, if a "good aligned" person decides to join you on your robbing and burning spree then that will deduct "good" points from them and slide them further towards the evil scale. If a bad guy decides to join you on a mission to clean up the streets and protect the citizens, then that will add points to their good scale. I'm sure there will be some way for the devs to distinguish the different alignments amongst the hero or villain populace to allow people to determine whether or not they will want to team with such individuals.

Kind of off topic, but kind of not at the same time... This alignment and choice system could add a really interesting dynamic to grouping. Say you're in a group and you guys are presented with a choice at the end of a mission weather or not to kill a villain. Half the group chooses to kill him and the other half chooses to turn him into the authorities. Rather than using SWTORs method of pretty much rolling a dice which is totally lame and immersion breaking, the team divides and fights each other. For RPers this could be cool because your hero/villain can develop new team mates or enemies this way. BTW, I'm in favor of the alignment system. It would add some pretty cool story and mission options that the devs could explore and I don't think it would be redundant at all.

Perhaps what may help is rereading through some of the updates that pertain to this dicussion:
About Alignment: [url=https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/629385]Beyond Good and Evil[/url]

Context for the lore on Titan City's Law: [url=https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/812507]Law and the Superhero[/url]

Alignment and your character's story: [url=https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/642943]Choose Your Own Adventure[/url]

And some history which details how the citizens at times viewed all costumed peoples as "vigilantes" and "heroes" at other times: [url=https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/648915]Ephesus Lecture Series - History Of Titan City Overview[/url]

To summarize, your alignment is based on your view of your character, it can affect the flow of the narrative of your character's story within the game based on choices you make for your character, alignment can also affect how certain factions within the game react to you (in general), but you may be able to affect your standing with certain factions outside the scope of your alignment.

TheMightyPaladin wrote:

Beyond Good and Evil I had already read.

The alignment system tracks three aspects of your character's actions, which are absolutes and not interpretations..
1) Lawfulness vs. Lawlessness: This is how your actions compare to the law, such as whether you steal or not, whether you invade someone's home or lair without probable cause, etc. These are simple yes or no statements.

2) Level of Violence: This is how quick you are to revert to violence as your course of action. If you tend to resort to violence first, you trend towards the violent side, while if you seek out the non-violent methods to resolve a situation, you will trend towards the non-violent side. This is an absolute measurement, simply answering the question of "Did you seek out a non-violent situation, or did you jump straight to violence without seeking out the non-violent solution.

3) Honorability: This is tracking the amount of trustworthiness that the character has, based on how they have acted. Such as keeping promises, betraying your allies, or relying on lies and other falsehoods. This is an absolute measurement based on whether or not the character maintained the trust of the NPC through their actions.

While each of these measurements are, in any particular single incident, an absolute, they do not, in a single incident, throw you to one end of the spectrum or the other. They are a scale, where one action will push you one position towards the appropriate end of the spectrum. No one incident will cause you to go from a completely lawful status to a totally lawless status, but instead will shift you only slightly. NPC perception will be based on where you are along each of these spectrums. The TCPD will maintain their relationship with you despite one or two actions of an illegal nature; however, if you make a habit of it, they will become suspicious, and lose faith in their ability to trust you to follow the law, and therefore will likely be less willing to provide you with options to work with them.

TheMightyPaladin wrote:

Law and the Superhero was interesting and gives me the feeling that superheroes are in a sense deputized.

Heroes are required to follow the statutes of the Constitution of the United States, as well as the laws of the State and the City. They are not legally deputized as a blanket statement. Some heroes are deputized, and work closely with the TCPD, while others are not. Those heroes that are not deputized are required to follow the laws regarding "Citizen's Arrest", as that is all that they are.

TheMightyPaladin wrote:

Choose your own adventure simply confirmed what I already suspected about how the alignment system is intended to work.

This is intended to clarify how the actions of the player character will affect their perception by the NPCs throughout the city. Depending on what you choose to do in certain situations (such as winning or losing a fight with a boss or other NPC), other NPCs may see you in a different light. If you lost to them, you may be viewed as weaker, less reliable to be able to do what needs to be done; if you won, you may be feared by certain NPCs, and embraced by others. Whether or not you choose to engage in the fight at all could affect your alignment, as could choosing to arrest the NPC prior to a total defeat.

TheMightyPaladin wrote:

Ephesus Lecture... Was unevenly written, it seemed to skip from colonial times to the industrial revolution then gave needlessly specific details about a few recent events
it didn't really tell me anything I needed to know.
One thing that it made very unclear is this: is the phenomenon of superheroes something that's mostly centered on this city? or are other cities equally supered up? The lecture seems to suggest the former but the court precedents cited in "Law..." were all from other cities across the country suggesting the latter.

As specified in the title of the update, this is an overview that is part of a series of lectures that comprised one full course as part of the history curriculum at a the local university, Ephesus University; this is also known as the "first day of class". As such, it doesn't contain every detail that would be explored during that series, only the key events, none of which happened in the time frame that you referenced as "missing."
With regards to the prevalence of supers as it compares to the prevalence in other locations around the world, the lecture also states:
"As superpowered heroes became an accepted, even popular, feature of Titan City life, so did super-crime. [...] People lost faith in authority figures, and that included superpowered heroes. Meanwhile, the superpowered community itself changed. The appearance of grim, dark vigilantes who regularly blurred the line between heroism and villainy confused and troubled the public. By the late 1990’s, the newly coarsened superpowered community had turned inward, focusing on its own rivalries and concerns.
Hurricane Atlas changed all that. [...]We know them today as the “Atlas 33”; those who held the line the longest against the murderous Rex. That battle resulted in the death of Titan City’s favorite son, American Star, after more than a century of crimefighting.
American Star’s former protege, Harriet E. Ross, took up his sword and carried on his mantle as the heroine Anthem. She soon founded a new team of Paragons, carrying this hallowed name into the new century. At present, the superpowered community is larger, more varied, and more diverse than ever."

Given this level of acceptance, historical as well as present, supers are more prevalent in Titan City. However, there are supers around the world, they just don't have the level of acceptance as they do in Titan City, mostly due to the effect of American Star and his actions in pursuit of upholding the law and equality in justice .

TheMightyPaladin wrote:

Ultimately nothing I saw really changes my feelings about the alignment system (that it's a very risky waste of time) but it does seem to be pointless to argue against something that appears to be getting set down in stone already. I just hope it won't ruin the game.

I am sorry you feel this way. If you are set in this belief, so be it. That is your choice. I hope my clarification of certain aspects of this system will make you less set in your decision, but I understand if it is not. Perhaps once you are able to play the game, you might change your mind. If not, again, that is your choice.

I hope that this clarification will aid others in their understanding of the alignment system, and therefore more able to make an informed decision in that regard. If not, again, that is y'all's choice.

Please let me know if there is further clarification that you desire, and I will answer to the best of my abilities, and within the limits of our NDA. I would prefer such communication be sent by PM, as I may not check this thread very often.

And that'll teach me for replying to a thread after only reading the first half of it (in my defense, the posts started getting long).

ConundrumofFurballs answers my question and more informative links to more information. As well as a thought out reply by our legal friend who basically shares similar points of view as the devs.

I'm going to leave my post as is but express that distaste for a feature isn't a bad thing or that criticism should be avoided but the sentiment you started out with was unnecessarily heavy handed.

So where does one lie on the scale of TCPD working with your character when they're a government spook given a license to kill? :o "You're first action is violence! You do illegal things, but given permission by the government to do so! We're still your buddies!" right? :p

TheMightyPaladin wrote:

I do however have questions:
If a player doesn't like the way things are going because he's made some bad choices, can he delete his character and remake him to get a clean slate?

A deleted character is essentially gone from the game. A recreated character with the same name and global ID is starting over again, clean slate. A sort of player imposed self-retcon if you will.

TheMightyPaladin wrote:

I can imagine a few types of characters who could justify their actions enough to see themselves as heroes while the rest of the world sees them as villains. But I'm curious about how these characters would work in the game.
1) Robin Hood. This character is not a freedom fighter like the Robin Hood of legend, but he commits crimes for profit and gives the majority of his money to the poor.
This one is almost certainly the easiest one to do but the question is, do we get "Good" points for giving away money? and will it be possible to give away so much that we become good guys in the public view despite being bank robbers or drug dealers?

Robin Hood-eque character alignment would be something along the lines of Lawless-Nonviolent-Honorable.
In the setting of his story he would probably have positive faction standing with the Villagers faction, negative faction standing with Prince John's faction, Sherif of Nottingham faction, and many of the various House factions if it were done by family / house per faction rather than a nobility in general faction.

TheMightyPaladin wrote:

2) The Punisher or Steel Head. Clearly can't work because we don't have killing damage no point asking about him, just sayin.

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1421914688&x-yt-cl=84503534&v=SDbINMm-d60&feature=player_detailpage#t=168]Killing is a choice[/url]. That is it may come up as a possible decision with permanent results (the NPC no longer appears in your character's narative). As one of our comp devs cited above, there will be choices at points in your character's narative where you the player can choose a nonviolent resolution or violent resolution (I wouldn't exclude the possibility of death here as well). Outside of the narative choices, the general "defeated" status is purposefully ambiguous - players can decide for themselves if NPCs are dead, injured, subdued, or whatever.

A Punisher-esque character alignment would be Lawless-Violent-Honorable.

I'll skip the rest becaue they are more along the lines of character-based story themes than something concrete enought to specify alignment toward (I could apply alignment but its not necessary at this point to me).

The alignment meters have variances between Lawful - Lawless, Nonviolent - Violent, Honorable - Dishonorable. For example, both the Batman and Punisher might qualify as Lawless, Violent, Honorable, they may diiffer in where they stand within the various meters of Law, Violence, and Honor.

Thus far the distinction between Hero, Vilain, Vigilante, Scoundrel, and Unknown are player set labels and serve as to set up intial common opinion of the character. Through play the alignment system and standing with various factions will help paint the broader picture of what your character stands for who likes and dislikes that stance.

TheMightyPaladin wrote:

Frankly I would be very surprised if you can handle any of these characters or any other villain motives more complicated than getting money or obeying orders from some overlord.
Please surprise me.

While I don't know all the possible story paths possible, more than once it has been stated here on the boards by one of our devs that it isn't a joke when it's been said a player can try to take over the world. I also know we place a heavy importance on player agency - we want players to feel like their character is the star of their story, not the lackey, gopher, or underling of one of the game's NPCs.

TheMightyPaladin wrote:

It trivializes their deaths because when it stops you to ask about This person, the clear message is that this is the person who matters. those other people were nobodies.
Even if you do kill everyone all of the time the game doesn't care. You'll never get prosecuted for their murders.
Also how do you expect to keep a T rating when the game stops to ask you explicitly if you want to kill someone?
And another question. Is the computer ratting us out?
If I decide to do something that effects my alignment, could I keep it a secret. If I got away with it, is there any chance that later some investigator might expose my crimes.
I mean if a hero can see himself, very differently from how the world sees him, couldn't it work doth ways. Why not a character everyone thinks is good because he's gotten away with his crimes?

That's a wee bit more immersion that I care for. Before you know it, every NPC will have a Myers Briggs Personality Test score that dictate their motiv operandi. :/

As long as i can "Hunt, go Kill, Skulls" I'll be content. :)

[url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Kill_Skuls]Go. Hunt. Kill Skuls.[/url]

Segev wrote:

You will be free to team with people of various alignments or not, as you desire. If you feel that Vigilante McKillemall is engaged in unacceptable murder, do not team with him. This is a role-playing decision.
Regarding Batman being a dangerous vigilante...
According to the Adam West Batman Movie, Batman and Robin are duely deputized officers of the law. So depending on your canon...

And post-crisis, in the Man of Steel mini-series that retold Superman's origin, Supes was explicitly deputized by Metropolis' mayor in order to arrest Luthor for endangering the people on my yacht by hiring mercenaries to test Superman.

TheMightyPaladin wrote:

Actually he didn't hire mercenaries, he told his security to do nothing and didn't alert the authorities when he knew a terror attack was iminent.
As for the mayor deputising Superman it seemed to be clearly for this one purpose and not something that would remain in effect after.

Ah, I think you are right there, MP. Although given Superman's regular interactions with the MPD, I would not be surprised at all if the mayor made the deputization permanent. Superman was pretty highly thought of.