Announcements

Please do not use Photobucket to host your images on this site. They will not appear for other users but instead will give an error image and a directive to go to:
http://photobucket.com/p500/
For these images to show up it would require us to pay a premium account fee of $399.00 USD/year or our users to set up paid accounts of $99/year for this service to view these images.
We will be removing all linked images to that site and we suggest you use https://imgur.com/ or other similar site instead.

Watch this space for important information on planned twitch streams, updates and more

A daring contrary view to raiding

7 posts / 0 new
Last post
Nadira
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 2 days ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/01/2014 - 13:25
A daring contrary view to raiding

Clicking around the interwebs I found this miniseries by somebody who dares to question the status quo of MMOs when it comes to raiding. Agree or disagree, he raises some issues that any developer should think about before deciding on the final progression structure of their new game.

part 1
part 2
part 3

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Online
Last seen: 3 min 59 sec ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
Thanks for the post. I've

Thanks for the post. I've read up on all of these articles as they were published. Personally, I don't see an issue with "raids" but there a bunch of caveats by what I mean as "raid".
Traditional raiding is consists of many of the points brought up by the writer of those articles. It can devide the player base in numerous ways. It cattle-herds the player base through the funnel of the raid content in order to adequate progress to the next set of content. It is also typically the advent of "end game progression".

Instead, let's approach a raid for what it does at its base: provides a place for large-scale, multi-group combat. This can be done dynamically like in GW2, or strigently like in WoW.

With the definition of large-scale, multi-group combat as the basis then events can be a "raid", multi-story-arc-missions can be a raid. As long as we avoid some of the larger issues with player-base segregation with the typical raid being the funnel for progress, including the rewards from such being the part of the requirement for the necessity in continuing progress, I think its ok to provide raids in one or more forms, not as the writer states where it needs to go, it just needs to change.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
Nadira
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 2 days ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/01/2014 - 13:25
Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Thanks for the post. I've read up on all of these articles as they were published. Personally, I don't see an issue with "raids" but there a bunch of caveats by what I mean as "raid".
Traditional raiding is consists of many of the points brought up by the writer of those articles. It can devide the player base in numerous ways. It cattle-herds the player base through the funnel of the raid content in order to adequate progress to the next set of content. It is also typically the advent of "end game progression".
Instead, let's approach a raid for what it does at its base: provides a place for large-scale, multi-group combat. This can be done dynamically like in GW2, or strigently like in WoW.
With the definition of large-scale, multi-group combat as the basis then events can be a "raid", multi-story-arc-missions can be a raid. As long as we avoid some of the larger issues with player-base segregation with the typical raid being the funnel for progress, including the rewards from such being the part of the requirement for the necessity in continuing progress, I think its ok to provide raids in one or more forms, not as the writer states where it needs to go, it just needs to change.

I am not sure if I entirely agree with the writer of those three articles either, but he brings up some good points about the hidden cost and pitfalls of the traditionaly raiding endgame.
One of the things I liked most about city of heroes was that it almost entirely lacked that pressure. There was the hami raid and it was a lot of frustration mixed in with a lot of fun to do that every now and then. But equally fun was the occasional rerun of the invasion event when somebody completed that event in the warzone. And just hanging out in the Pocket D, or playing through another set of missions you somehow managed to overlook previously with a new out of the box alt.
Compare that to a game like SW:TOR, where there is a lot of pressure to do raids, or pvp. Or better yet pvp-raids (not that they have managed to implement those but it is almost a given that Bioware are working on it). Playing a character through all story chapters to level 55 (soon 60) is fun, but after than you realise that doing it again is not nearly as awesome. A lot of effort has gone into creating a narrow path to the end of the game, and not much into providing alternatives. Sure, there are hardmode missions (exactly the same you already did but with nastier enemies), a few raids and PvP battlegrounds. But that is like playing through a game all the way to the end only to be told. Great, now that you are here, we have this entirely different game that you are actually supposed to have been playing all along.
CoH allowed you to do what you wanted how you wanted it, and I like that lack of pressure a lot more I must say. I sure hope that City of Titans will keep intact that aspect of its beloved precursor.

oOStaticOo
oOStaticOo's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
Joined: 10/24/2013 - 06:21
Yeah, I'd really like to stay

Yeah, I'd really like to stay away from the traditional "Raid" definition. I've had my fill of raids in WoW that just aggravated the crap out of me. I don't want to have to worry about having specific powers, specific gear, or a specific gear rating to be able to perform the "Raid". I like the Task Forces CoH had and the fact that you could overcome the Archenemy without having to worry about having specific builds or ATs. Now designing them to have a unique way in which they can be performed optimally is fine, as long as it is still possible to defeat it without having to have specific requirements.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

Empyrean
Empyrean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 57 min 49 sec ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/16/2014 - 07:51
I agree with Static and

I agree with Static and Nadira that lack of pressure in general and lack of pressure to do raids is something I loved and now (that I've played other games) miss about CoH. I do have to admit that when CoH introduced raids with Pretoria and Dark Astoria, they were more fun than any I've played in other games--exactly because of the lack of "gear/power/team makeup" pressure that Static mentioned.

Even in CoH, the "everybody get ready cause this guy does this at this point in the raid" dynamic was annoying, but I think they've got that covered with Momentum. From what Tannim said and from what's been said in general, I don't think we have much to worry about. This won't be a WoW clone :).

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
Empyrean]<p>I agree with
Empyrean wrote:

I agree with Static and Nadira that lack of pressure in general and lack of pressure to do raids is something I loved and now (that I've played other games) miss about CoH. I do have to admit that when CoH introduced raids with Pretoria and Dark Astoria, they were more fun than any I've played in other games--exactly because of the lack of "gear/power/team makeup" pressure that Static mentioned.

However at the start, until everyone *knew* the mechanics of the iTrial, and/or had over "incarnated" it, I was involved in *numerous* iTrial "failures", where we actually didn't complete it.

And those ones were not "fun" in the slightest. Probably because they were so short, it could be very hard to do a "regroup and reattempt the boss" in the time limit before they failed. Which meant restarting it from the very beginning.

The thing is though, I am *not* against raids... I do believe that they have a place for the players that want them. I do believe that there should be *some* way for "non raiders" to get stuff *on par* with those who do not do it.

I do also believe that if there was "exclusive" non raiding rewards out there, that those who did raids, they also stood a chance to get it from the "raid" (even though it is provisionally a "non raid" reward).

For me, if you are going to try to make it equal, it goes in *all* directions. So that there will always a be a *chance* of someone getting that super awesome enhancement from *not* doing the content that it is designed for (CoX example would have been a PvP IO dropping just totally randomly from a normal mob)

Quote:

Even in CoH, the "everybody get ready cause this guy does this at this point in the raid" dynamic was annoying, but I think they've got that covered with Momentum. From what Tannim said and from what's been said in general, I don't think we have much to worry about. This won't be a WoW clone :).

The thing is that the *original* Hamidon did stuff at various HP levels (yellow bloom anyone?), so it wasn't exactly *strange* for CoX, but because not everyone did Hami Raids, they wouldn't have necessarily known about it.

Although if the enemy boss do do anything based on any form of "resource" that they work on, can I call you a Wildstar clone? (even though I am sure that WoW has also done this, and several other games out there)

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Empyrean
Empyrean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 57 min 49 sec ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/16/2014 - 07:51
Ah, I did try to run the

Ah, I did try to run the original Hami stuff, but my computer at the time couldn't handle it, so I didn't know :P. By the time I had a good enough computer, they'd changed the raids. And I just threw the WoW clone comment out there because that's a typical comment people throw around a lot.

I get your point though. Nothing is really new under the sun, and if it's fun it's fun, no matter the mechanic. And, in the comics, often a team would go in "with a plan" to get the bad guy to the point where he'd do this so that they could do that to beat him.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)