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Custom Models and Textures?

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TTheDDoctor
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Custom Models and Textures?

Hello, everybody! I know that a lot of you have some very unique characters, and some of them have iconic parts that are difficult to find (be it the exact look or something close) in-game. Some of you may even have special emblems or costume textures that you want to see on your superhero. I know that the Kickstarter page says that a hefty donation can give you such things, but what about the other pros who are good at design? Obviously the Kickstarter perks will still hold value for those of us who can't model or make HQ textures to save our lives, so why not?

[b]It goes something like this...[/b]

To model something, you would go to a mesh editor sreen or what-have-you and build your own custom parts/props/weapons from a list of morph-able geometric shapes. The process would be like 3D modeling, but more user-friendly.

To make textures, you would upload an image file from your computer to a costume part. Simplicity incarnate.

[b]...So, what do you think? Can we get away with this? Or at least the texture editor?[/b]

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Lothic
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I think it might eventually

I think it might eventually be possible for us to submit ideas for customized props or costume items (similar to how the Kickstarter things worked) that would be vetted/implemented by the Devs for eventual inclusion to the game. The main problem with people "uploading" textures to the game servers directly (assuming it'd even be practical) is that there wouldn't be any Dev oversight on what was pluged in, which (unfortunately) would lead to a lot of questionable/naughty content that'd have to be policed/banned by the GMs.

So I think what we'll see are options included in the in-game store for us to buy props or costume textures which will likely cost roughly the same amount as they did for the Kickstarter. Sure that would keep things like that expensive, but it'll at least give us the option to get things we wanted in a regulated and organized way with proper Dev oversight.

P.S. Now if you're just talking about client-only modding then it'll probably work like it already did in CoH. That's like you said relatively easy. Where the problems arise is when you try to take this suggestion towards being some kind of server-side mod that everyone could see.

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I agree with Lothic if

I agree with Lothic if players can make anything. Well just Google Spore creatures with save search off to see the results. Many Awesome designs, but many that are genitalia based.

For every good addition from players, there bound to be bad.

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I suggested this somewhere

I suggested this somewhere else.

I'd love to see a regular contest (maybe quarterly? at least annually) to design new patterns for the "leotard" skins. You know, the basic under-layer. If there was a mini-creator type editor that let us make the "flat map," then preview and tweek the geometry off-line. Of course, it would be subject to however many colors choices we would have, and need to be "splittable" into its components (gloves/boots/body/head/etc)

Then, they could be submitted to the dev team. The winner(s) would get exclusive use for a year(or something) then they get rolled out to the public. This would take some resources, admittedly, so there's no point in doing this too early on. But I think the resources necessary to manage the contests would be minimal compared to the benefits of getting new designs essentially for free on a regular basis.

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Such a contest could

Such a contest could certainly be useful and perhaps fun, although some care would need to be taken to discourage [url=http://forums.riftgame.com/general-discussions/news-announcements/425737-congratulations-winners-rift-concept-weapons-cloaks-contest-5.html#post4784292]shenanigans[/url].

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To clarify, it probably would

To clarify, it probably would be a good idea to keep custom pieces saved on the client. It would help clean up the server ROM/RAM/etc if it extracted custom textures and parts from the computer.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Regarding adult content and the like, I suppose that we could utilize a simple "Report Character" feature to weed out offensive designs, and maybe check boxes when uploading designs to ensure that naughty images aren't displayed according to the player's preferences. Obviously, it would be a hassle for mods to directly check them all, so maybe finding a way to block images/textures and having the game then proceed to censor/auto-replace offensive designs would work.

I've seen some games that are loaded with player models and have a nigh-spotless record despite regulation barely going beyond a report button, so perhaps what we would need is a mature community in order to bring this to light. We'll know just what players we're dealing with after launch...

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Scott Jackson
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For those who haven't yet

For those who haven't yet seen Everquest Next's reveal of their "Everquest Landmark" terrain and object builder, this intro video may be of interest. We could learn from their attempt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjvYIV4B5jg

The video doesn't give much attention to the selling of player-designed objects, or the contests by which their equivalent of CoH / CoT mission maps would be selected from the best player-created terrain regions. These were announced and discussed in greater detail in another video (about 27 minutes in).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDq2a3zy_6M

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AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

To clarify, it probably would be a good idea to keep custom pieces saved on the client. It would help clean up the server ROM/RAM/etc if it extracted custom textures and parts from the computer.

The problem with "keeping the customized costume data saved on clients to save storage space on the servers" is that it would be pretty much limited to only changing what you see on your own machine. This is basically how modding already worked in CoH. In order for other people to see them the data for your customized pieces would have to be transmitted in real time to every other person around you. That would be an utter nightmare server bandwith-wise.

The only practical way for people to add things to the game that everyone can see would be for people to sumbit new items to the Devs and have them officially vetted, approved and then patched into the game's baseline. This would distrubute your new items to every other player in the game automatically. Then when they run up to you in-game their client will be able to load up your items without having to transmit the unique data for your items across the servers.

The great side benefit of this is that by sending custom items through the official channel to be patched into the game the GMs will have complete oversight and be able to prevent any naughty/questionable content at the source.

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

Regarding adult content and the like, I suppose that we could utilize a simple "Report Character" feature to weed out offensive designs, and maybe check boxes when uploading designs to ensure that naughty images aren't displayed according to the player's preferences. Obviously, it would be a hassle for mods to directly check them all, so maybe finding a way to block images/textures and having the game then proceed to censor/auto-replace offensive designs would work.
I've seen some games that are loaded with player models and have a nigh-spotless record despite regulation barely going beyond a report button, so perhaps what we would need is a mature community in order to bring this to light. We'll know just what players we're dealing with after launch...

Yes there will be a way to "Report Character" for any offensive activity regardless if your idea for customized costume items happens or not. That will always be the final catch-all for anything that "devious" players manage to think up regardless of any safeguards the Devs establish.

As you say anything that will mitigate the GMs' workload would be beneficial because as we all know they always have enough to do. This is why it's far more efficent and safe for any player-submitted content to be vetted and approved for inclusion into the game BEFORE any problems arise. Sure that might mean it'll take longer for any new items to get patched and distributed out to all players, but frankly I'd much rather have the control centralized at the start rather than it be a chaotic free-for-all that would arise if players were allowed to directly upload content themselves.

While I admire your faith in your fellow man the sad truth of the matter is that even if 99% of the playerbase would be "mature" enough to handle this responsibly it'll be that 1% who'd run amuck and ruin it for everyone. I'd just prefer to keep the Genie in the Bottle so to speak and leave it up to the Devs/GMs to have full control over what gets uploaded to the game for everyone to see.

Bottomline I'm not against people submitting their customized costume items for inclusion into the main game. I'm just against it happening without proper filters/controls from the beginning. If you still want to see something "questionable" you can always stick to client-only modding so that you can see it without subjecting it to others.

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TTheDDoctor
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Scott, I think that has more

Scott, I think that has more application to player bases than objects and textures. Nevertheless, such a concept could potentially be rigged to work as the piece/prop/weapon editor if done right. I can tell that would be pretty feasible...

Lothic, I think that right there would patch it in. Good thinking.

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Agreed, though depending on

Agreed, though depending on brush sizes and available materials, the presenter in the second video seemed to imply that smaller objects could be created and sold, and the buyer(s) could then assemble objects / building components / terrain segments into larger structures (also sellable). Player-created textures or costume pieces weren't mentioned, and that seems like the biggest opportunity for CoT to innovate. Since they're dealing with a voxel system and we'd be using more traditional UE4 design methods, there's not much we could copy from the design side of Landmark. Still, their GMs will face similar challenges, and the successes and failures of their player trading market can supply us with a case study, as did Second Life.

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Just wait and see

Just wait and see

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Scott Jackson wrote:
Scott Jackson wrote:

... the successes and failures of their player trading market can supply us with a case study, as did Second Life.

It's interesting that someone brought up Second Life as a reference for this. One of the things I always wished CoH could have was the sheer freedom to have as many player generated costume items as Second Life allows. In fact it's such a big thing there that many people run in-game businesses selling their items that translate into real world money that they actually make a real life living with.

The double-edged sword of that vision of utopia is that an overwhelming amount of the player generated content in Second Life is geared toward, how shall I say, the "fetish" community. Basically a huge amount of the player generated content there is sex/erotica/porn oriented. Now I actually don't have a problem with that - human nature is what it is. But if as you say Second Life can serve as a "case study" for what could happen if CoT actually allowed this degree of freedom I think it's clear the Devs would have to specifically decide if they wanted to open the flood gates on that element entering their game. Considering they still want to try to keep CoT a "family/teen" game I simply don't think they would like to see CoT go down the same path Second Life quickly did.

So (again) the obvious compromise solution for CoT is to have player submissions controlled and vetted by the Devs/GMs before they get patched into the game. Not only would this keep the most extreme/offensive content in check but it'd serve as an efficient method to have the approved content get patched and distributed to the entire playerbase. As far as what content would then be "allowable" by the GMs goes I think some relatively racy things will still show up. For instance I'd think things like fishnet stockings and thigh-hi ballet boots would make it through. But this would likely keep out obviously/overtly questionable things like "sex toys" and/or "nude" items.

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Or limit the creation

Or limit the creation/submission to those with a pay-once, let's call it license for lack of a better term. If you make something vulger, infringing, racist, etc, you lose your license.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Or limit the creation/submission to those with a pay-once, let's call it license for lack of a better term. If you make something vulger, infringing, racist, etc, you lose your license.

Sure as a player I'd have no problem with a "permit to create custom content" system like that.

While it might allow a greater degree of freedom than the "GM vetting before release" idea the obvious downside is that makes the job of GMs having to respond to and police the playerbase for offensive content that much harder. If you think the GMs who'll be responsible for CoT are going to be up to that challenge then I'll be looking forward to that. You'd be placing a good deal of faith in the overall "maturity" of the playerbase. While I suspect most people would "behave" (especially if the up-front one time fee is high enough) it'd come down to just how wild/naughty that last 1% would turn out to be.

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I believe vetting before

I believe vetting before allowing player created costumes into the wild is the best approach. Any number of people are going to assume that new costume pieces in the game came from MWM, or were introduced with MWM's blessing, in any case. Even if there is some guarantee on how quickly submissions will be reviewed, these would require as immediate response than a "I just saw a Dr. Ballgag and his Stark Towers (and I don't mean Tony)" report. Perhaps go with the approach of accepting the ten best submissions in a six month period, possibly in multiple categories.

The issue I can see with a license/permit approach is that these tend to imply that submissions will be accepted so long as they follow the rules.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

I believe vetting before allowing player created costumes into the wild is the best approach. Any number of people are going to assume that new costume pieces in the game came from MWM, or were introduced with MWM's blessing, in any case. Even if there is some guarantee on how quickly submissions will be reviewed, these would require as immediate response than a "I just saw a Dr. Ballgag and his Stark Towers (and I don't mean Tony)" report. Perhaps go with the approach of accepting the ten best submissions in a six month period, possibly in multiple categories.
The issue I can see with a license/permit approach is that these tend to imply that submissions will be accepted so long as they follow the rules.

The CoT Devs have already started the ball rolling with the "GM vetted before release" concept with the way the several special Kickstarter perks (i.e. Fashionista) are going to work. It would seem like if that goes well then it wouldn't take much more effort to include a cash shop method to buy new "Fashionista-type" custom items once the game has launched. This scheme could even be expanded so that the players themselves could have a second option to be responsible for actually doing the work to create the digital items themselves before submission for inclusion into the game. This would provide two different avenues for custom items to find their way into the game. Dev created items could still cost more (i.e. $3,000 Fashionista based) or much less (say $50 each) for items that were directly player created. This would ensure only serious players were involved and keep the GMs "in the loop" to prevent ALL objectionable material, not to mention be a great cash source for MWM.

Now the obvious appeal of a "buy a permit to become a registered custom item creator" system would be that it would allow those players interested in creating a bunch of customized items more freedom to toss things out continuously and it might even lead to players being able to start in-game businesses to sell their products to other players. But even if it that happens (without initial GM vetting) they are still going to have to work out the issues of how those digital items are going to be distributed to players. Will all items have to be submitted to the Devs anyway just to get them patched into the game's baseline? Will they be able to store the data of these customized items on individual client machines and deal with unique custom data having to be transmitted real time to other players as needed?

As appealing as it sounds it simply seems like the "buying permits to create custom items" method would be far more problematic from an implementation point of view. And that's not even addressing the need to police offensive content AFTER it's already been released to the wild rather than catching it BEFORE it's released via the GM vetting concept. Obviously I don't know as much about the "behind the scenes" aspects of this as Doctor Tyche does, but given what little we do know it would seem vetting before release would be the easier, better choice for CoT. I'll be interested to learn more about what Devs have in mind to address these concerns.

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A T-shirt for the former WWE

[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kmreErghD0Q/TthHtjM6z2I/AAAAAAAAAHA/ikqQiSzBM4U/s1600/carashirt.jpg[/img]

A T-shirt for the former WWE wrestler Sin Cara, that eventually got pulled. It was on sale for just a few days before the WWE realised their mistake.

And this is something that an *experienced* company screwed up on. Can you imagine the problems that would happen (especially in an MMO where the delivery is *instant*) where something got released, people buy it, and then you pull it from sale, and refund those players. Even if it is something as innocuous as this, people WILL get upset over it.

Tell a lie. It did happen in The Secret World (just google up The Secret World Mankini for more information), and people got upset over something that they paid money for, getting taken away from them.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
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4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

A T-shirt for the former WWE wrestler Sin Cara, that eventually got pulled. It was on sale for just a few days before the WWE realised their mistake.
And this is something that an *experienced* company screwed up on. Can you imagine the problems that would happen (especially in an MMO where the delivery is *instant*) where something got released, people buy it, and then you pull it from sale, and refund those players. Even if it is something as innocuous as this, people WILL get upset over it.
Tell a lie. It did happen in The Secret World (just google up The Secret World Mankini for more information), and people got upset over something that they paid money for, getting taken away from them.

This is a good point. What if a bunch of items got made and sold by a player with a valid "customization permit" turns out to be bad/wrong/illegal for whatever reason, even if that reason is not entirely obvious to anyone at the time. Sure the GMs might be able to revoke that player's permit AFTER the fact, but by then the damage would already be done and they'd potentially piss off a bunch of players who might not even be aware that what they bought was bad.

I realize that setting things up to require the GMs to have to pre-approve every single new item that gets custom created for the game would impose an annoying bottleneck that would likely slow down the potential total amount of new items coming into the game. But frankly I think I'd rather have to suffer that than worry about all the potential long term shenanigans that could happen by allowing things to pour into the game without initial oversight. At the very least it might catch things like your bad T-shirt example before it hits the general playerbase.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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Sometimes there is a real

Sometimes there is a real problem, sometimes it is inadvertent, and sometimes people just see what they want to see. Even if a week of public review were added, there's no guarantee that something wouldn't slip through. I think the benefits outweigh the risks, so I would still like to see player creations make it into the game, if it is practicable.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Sometimes there is a real problem, sometimes it is inadvertent, and sometimes people just see what they want to see. Even if a week of public review were added, there's no guarantee that something wouldn't slip through. I think the benefits outweigh the risks, so I would still like to see player creations make it into the game, if it is practicable.

Fair enough - no review process is foolproof. But if a GM looking at something for 5 seconds could catch 98% of the problems before they were approved for release to the "wild" so to speak I'm all for it. Besides how likely would it be for a GM to miss an obvious sex toy, "nude" costume item or swastika?

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One thing that is worth while

One thing that is worth while to take note of as well... and this happened with Trion (Rift/Defiance developers).

Lets just say that allowing the players to do it themselves (especially if they are getting a cut of the profits for example), can lead to infringement by the playerbase to get something beneficial for themselves.

[url=http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/05/05/rift-concept-art-contest-tainted-by-copycat-design/]More news here[/url]

This is quite possibly why most companies tend to do stuff themselves, and *rarely* out source to the player base.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Lothic
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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

One thing that is worth while to take note of as well... and this happened with Trion (Rift/Defiance developers).
Lets just say that allowing the players to do it themselves (especially if they are getting a cut of the profits for example), can lead to infringement by the playerbase to get something beneficial for themselves.
More news here
This is quite possibly why most companies tend to do stuff themselves, and *rarely* out source to the player base.

Exactly. I haven't even mentioned the potential for people to try to sneak out IP infringing items like Superman "S" chest logos or Spider Man textured bodysuits. There were plenty of those done up as CoH client-only mods - there's absolutely no reason to think people won't try to slip those into CoT by any means possible. Sure the CoT GMs could quickly ban/revoke privs for those people involved in this kind of naughtiness, but that kind of thing, even if it's only in the game for a few moments, could open us up for lawsuits from the big comic book companies. Marvel legally "harassed" CoH for this kind of nonsense - again why couldn't it happen with CoT?

I simply don't see a "problem free" scenario from any version of this that doesn't include GM approval/oversight BEFORE player-created content is released to the general playerbase.

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Nearly all MMOs have a chat

Nearly all MMOs have a chat obscenity filter option that is on by default, plus reporting tools; that's been good enough to handle an environment where it's far easier to create and distribute potentially offensive text, and where there's no financial penalty (loss of "permit" fee) for the Terms of Service (ToS) rule breaker in a free-to-play game.

For costume piece creation, the risk is already reduced by the fact that more tech skill and effort is needed to generate a piece. Combine that with a permit system and reporting, and risk drops further. As a final layer of protection, add a few custom costume filter options that give players control over their in-game experience:

> View player-created costume pieces? (Y/N, default Y)
----If MWM wishes to "approve" player-created pieces via contests or some regular review process, those pieces would be viewable by all by default, and could be included in official patches to reduce lag from on-demand patching. Alternately, if MWM doesn't want to include them in official patches, but still wants to highlight great costumes (like "featured AE missions"), a player could toggle this option off to save bandwidth, in which case a basic costume would appear instead. A player would see any custom pieces in their own costume regardless of this setting.

> View player-created costume pieces that have not passed review? (Y/N, default N)
----All newly-created pieces are marked "unreviewed", similar to player-created missions in most games. Toggling warns that you accept the risk of seeing material that is offensive, beyond the game's T rating, or a copyright violation. Unreviewed pieces could be traded in a marketplace, but with that same warning to any buyer. A player would see any custom pieces in their own costume regardless of this setting.

> View player-created costume pieces that have been marked with a ToS violation? (Y/N, default N)
----If a report is received for ToS violation, and MWM representatives review and deem it so, flag it this category. These pieces would only be viewable by players who are already using them or who have toggled this option to see them on others. Severe violations and copyright claims would be immediately replaced by a generic piece until resolved; the permit-holder could be given a chance to appeal or fix the issue, similar to what Youtube does and what CoH did for AE ToS violations; delete if the appeal/fix fails. After [n] strikes, a permit is revoked.

The scheme can be tilted toward flexibility / fairness / control / safety; for example I left the door open for smart ToS regarding trading limitations (e.g. "pieces marked offensive cannot be traded on the market", "unreviewed piece trading is buyer-beware, non-refundable, and limited to 10 TitanCoins per item").

I simply wanted to point out a reasonable framework that doesn't require upfront review of everything (similar to what Youtube, CoH AE, and other content hosts use), while still offering MWM reasonable defense against copyright lawsuits, and protecting players who wish to be protected. Freedom and personal protection can coexist in many ways, from requiring upfront approval, to something like this, to more unofficial methods like modding and third party packs. I don't yet have a strong opinion on the best approach.

I'll bow out of the discussion and let the good Doctor reveal the actual plan when the time is right.

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Scott, I think you've finally

Scott, I think that does it. That really helps to elaborate on, refine, and streamline the policing and review process!

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plus, to go a step further,

plus, to go a step further, you can have a waiting period for costume designers to become eligible to submit their work... a few months? Much like the Global Channel Spam prevention measure in CoH. ;)

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Scott Jackson wrote:
Scott Jackson wrote:

Nearly all MMOs have a chat obscenity filter option that is on by default, plus reporting tools; that's been good enough to handle an environment where it's far easier to create and distribute potentially offensive text, and where there's no financial penalty (loss of "permit" fee) for the Terms of Service (ToS) rule breaker in a free-to-play game.
For costume piece creation, the risk is already reduced by the fact that more tech skill and effort is needed to generate a piece. Combine that with a permit system and reporting, and risk drops further. As a final layer of protection, add a few custom costume filter options that give players control over their in-game experience:
> View player-created costume pieces? (Y/N, default Y)
----If MWM wishes to "approve" player-created pieces via contests or some regular review process, those pieces would be viewable by all by default, and could be included in official patches to reduce lag from on-demand patching. Alternately, if MWM doesn't want to include them in official patches, but still wants to highlight great costumes (like "featured AE missions"), a player could toggle this option off to save bandwidth, in which case a basic costume would appear instead. A player would see any custom pieces in their own costume regardless of this setting.
> View player-created costume pieces that have not passed review? (Y/N, default N)
----All newly-created pieces are marked "unreviewed", similar to player-created missions in most games. Toggling warns that you accept the risk of seeing material that is offensive, beyond the game's T rating, or a copyright violation. Unreviewed pieces could be traded in a marketplace, but with that same warning to any buyer. A player would see any custom pieces in their own costume regardless of this setting.
> View player-created costume pieces that have been marked with a ToS violation? (Y/N, default N)
----If a report is received for ToS violation, and MWM representatives review and deem it so, flag it this category. These pieces would only be viewable by players who are already using them or who have toggled this option to see them on others. Severe violations and copyright claims would be immediately replaced by a generic piece until resolved; the permit-holder could be given a chance to appeal or fix the issue, similar to what Youtube does and what CoH did for AE ToS violations; delete if the appeal/fix fails. After [n] strikes, a permit is revoked.
The scheme can be tilted toward flexibility / fairness / control / safety; for example I left the door open for smart ToS regarding trading limitations (e.g. "pieces marked offensive cannot be traded on the market", "unreviewed piece trading is buyer-beware, non-refundable, and limited to 10 TitanCoins per item").
I simply wanted to point out a reasonable framework that doesn't require upfront review of everything (similar to what Youtube, CoH AE, and other content hosts use), while still offering MWM reasonable defense against copyright lawsuits, and protecting players who wish to be protected. Freedom and personal protection can coexist in many ways, from requiring upfront approval, to something like this, to more unofficial methods like modding and third party packs. I don't yet have a strong opinion on the best approach.
I'll bow out of the discussion and let the good Doctor reveal the actual plan when the time is right.

As AAlbusUUmbra said you've definitely offered some interesting ideas to address some of the concerns here.

To be clear while I think the "GM review all player generated content before release" concept is the most comprehensive way to deal with this issue I've already acknowledged it has its drawbacks. While it's obvious that Internet services like YouTube could not operate with an upfront review policy I still believe it would be workable for CoT because unlike YouTube we would probably only be dealing with perhaps a few dozen/a hundred or so submissions a day instead of literally millions. But I'll grant you even with our much smaller scale of submissions there would still likely be some delay (a few days?) imposed by the review process.

In general I agree there needs to be a reasonable balance struck between player creativity and overall content control. While you've suggested some features to do this what you've proposed would definitely take a good deal of effort on the part of the CoT Devs to implement. I would be extremely surprised if the semi-complex features you've suggested here could be in place by the time CoT launches. Despite its faults the "GM review before release" scheme would probably be a simpler, more direct approach. Basically speaking if player created items have been pre-approved by the Devs you don't really need all the Y/N flags/switches you're proposing here. We aren't going to be dealing with the sheer volume of incoming content that sites like YouTube does so it might not be practical to "solve" our problems with their huge volume oriented methods.

I accept that this is a non-trivial issue to account for no matter how it's dealt with. I hope in the long run something like this will allow creative players to produce tons of new content for the game. But I'd honestly rather err on the side of conservatism at least when it comes to preventing/mitigating content that that's obviously offensive or potentially IP infringing. There's no point in allowing player created content to flow freely when, without proper oversight, it could easily ruin the game in multiple ways not the least of which might be litigation from big third party companies. As I mentioned before Marvel sued CoH over its costume creator back when CoH didn't even allow for player generated server-side content - imagine how they could sink their teeth into CoT if it did in any shape or form.

As you say I'm very interested to see how Doctor Tyche and the rest of the CoT Devs will handle this issue. I simply hope that whatever scheme they come up with will be clear, simple and adequate to the task at hand.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

...we would probably only be dealing with perhaps a few dozen/a hundred or so submissions a day instead of literally millions.

I have to ask, were you envisioning these submissions to be of a sort that MWM could introduce to the game with little to no effort, or concept art that MWM's art department would have to realize? If it is the former, your numbers seem wildly optimistic.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Lothic wrote:
...we would probably only be dealing with perhaps a few dozen/a hundred or so submissions a day instead of literally millions.
I have to ask, were you envisioning these submissions to be of a sort that MWM could introduce to the game with little to no effort, or concept art that MWM's art department would have to realize? If it is the former, your numbers seem wildly optimistic.

I've already talked about this difference in an earlier post on this thread. There's an obvious big difference between players who create the digital content themselves and submit it for review versus players who pay for the Devs to create a suggested item (akin to the Kickstarter Fashionista perk). There would be a huge price difference for that too - the Devs would likely charge a large extra premium for the Fashionista styled submissions.

For the sake of argument let's say on any given day the GMs receive 50-100 player created submissions and 2-3 player suggested Fashionista styled orders. That seems reasonable again given the likely price differences involved. Remember that even the player created ones will likely cost a non-trivial amount to be included in the game. Now depending on how they'll operate it might take a few days/weeks for those player created ones to get validated, approved and patched into the game. On the other hand it might take several weeks/months for the ones the Devs themselves would be creating for the Fashionista orders.

Whatever the actual number of submissions end up being there'll be far, far fewer than something like YouTube typically gets per day. I think it's a bit of overkill to think that we are going to have to worry about -that- many people submitting ideas regardless, epecially if they are priced at a price point that would keep the GMs/Devs of this game from getting overwhelmed with submissions. Exactly how many people can afford Fashionista's $3,000 price point? (I'm not assuming the post-launch Fashionista will cost $3,000, but I suspect it'll be roughly that exclusive at any rate).

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Lothic wrote:
...we would probably only be dealing with perhaps a few dozen/a hundred or so submissions a day instead of literally millions.
I have to ask, were you envisioning these submissions to be of a sort that MWM could introduce to the game with little to no effort, or concept art that MWM's art department would have to realize? If it is the former, your numbers seem wildly optimistic.

It would have to be the latter due to how the system is designed.

Let us use an example we all know, a gun.

To work, the gun would need to be centered to the core skeletal rig. It would need to have its mesh redone to mirror the in-place engine expectations for polygon placement. It would need to have bones added for socketing. It would then need to be animated against every single potential animation the player may need to put it through. Its texture would need to be materialized to work with the system in the engine.

The list goes on.

This is not a likely scenario due to how the engine is being set up. In order to grant the flexibility to the players, we had to sacrifice the flexibility in how components themselves are designed and built. We felt that this was a good trade-off. By controlling the asset chain, we could open up the options for the players, by having dynamic alternate animations, emission points, etc. This means that letting players make props and models, however, is not likely in the cards due to the demands on the asset chain.

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Thank you for that

Thank you for that clarification. I imagined there might be problems of that sort, especially with matching pieces to animation.

As a layman I probably assume the whole process for creating a costume that could be put into the game with relatively little work would be more difficult than it is (even if these problems did not exist), although I have no doubt that even then there would be players who would manage it.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Darth Fez wrote:
Lothic wrote:
...we would probably only be dealing with perhaps a few dozen/a hundred or so submissions a day instead of literally millions.

I have to ask, were you envisioning these submissions to be of a sort that MWM could introduce to the game with little to no effort, or concept art that MWM's art department would have to realize? If it is the former, your numbers seem wildly optimistic.

It would have to be the latter due to how the system is designed.
Let us use an example we all know, a gun.
To work, the gun would need to be centered to the core skeletal rig. It would need to have its mesh redone to mirror the in-place engine expectations for polygon placement. It would need to have bones added for socketing. It would then need to be animated against every single potential animation the player may need to put it through. Its texture would need to be materialized to work with the system in the engine.
The list goes on.
This is not a likely scenario due to how the engine is being set up. In order to grant the flexibility to the players, we had to sacrifice the flexibility in how components themselves are designed and built. We felt that this was a good trade-off. By controlling the asset chain, we could open up the options for the players, by having dynamic alternate animations, emission points, etc. This means that letting players make props and models, however, is not likely in the cards due to the demands on the asset chain.

Well this seems to render the whole avenue of "players directly generating costume content for submission into the game" relatively moot. You could have mentioned that a long time ago and saved us all the effort of speculatng how you would be handling all of that. ;)

So is it reasonable to conclude that there will in fact be a "post-launch Fashionista" style plan in place where players can submit orders for customized items to be created by the Devs for inclusion into the game? Again we know that the Kickstarter Fashionista perk cost $3,000 - would a post-launch equivalent to this cost a similar amount of money?

I realize that you probably can't answer specifically about this yet - but it doesn't hurt to keep poking you until some nugget of info pops out... j/k ;)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:
Lothic wrote:
...we would probably only be dealing with perhaps a few dozen/a hundred or so submissions a day instead of literally millions.

I have to ask, were you envisioning these submissions to be of a sort that MWM could introduce to the game with little to no effort, or concept art that MWM's art department would have to realize? If it is the former, your numbers seem wildly optimistic.

It would have to be the latter due to how the system is designed.
Let us use an example we all know, a gun.
To work, the gun would need to be centered to the core skeletal rig. It would need to have its mesh redone to mirror the in-place engine expectations for polygon placement. It would need to have bones added for socketing. It would then need to be animated against every single potential animation the player may need to put it through. Its texture would need to be materialized to work with the system in the engine.
The list goes on.
This is not a likely scenario due to how the engine is being set up. In order to grant the flexibility to the players, we had to sacrifice the flexibility in how components themselves are designed and built. We felt that this was a good trade-off. By controlling the asset chain, we could open up the options for the players, by having dynamic alternate animations, emission points, etc. This means that letting players make props and models, however, is not likely in the cards due to the demands on the asset chain.

Well this seems to render the whole avenue of "players directly generating costume content for submission into the game" relatively moot. You could have mentioned that a long time ago and saved us all the effort of speculatng how you would be handling all of that. ;)
So is it reasonable to conclude that there will in fact be a "post-launch Fashionista" style plan in place where players can submit orders for customized items to be created by the Devs for inclusion into the game? Again we know that the Kickstarter Fashionista perk cost $3,000 - would a post-launch equivalent to this cost a similar amount of money?
I realize that you probably can't answer specifcally about this yet - but it doesn't hurt to keep poking you until some nugget of info pops out... j/k ;)

We have a plan in place, and I think you will like it. Just keep an All Points Bulletin open and Reload often for when it comes up.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Again we know that the Kickstarter Fashionista perk cost $3,000 - would a post-launch equivalent to this cost a similar amount of money?

Like a true forumite, I am not going to allow incoming facts to get in the way of some baseless speculation.

My assumptions are that any costume (pieces) submitted by a player will, if accepted, be made available to everyone through the store, and that the submitter's reward will be the credit and seeing their costume realized. Since there is no exclusivity, no guarantee that the submission will be accepted, no time frame for when the submission will be available, and given that the costume will generate some revenue, the cost for submission need not need to be anywhere near that carried by the KS Fashionista perk. In other words, it casts Doctor Tyche's idea of having a license for submissions in a new light (besides serving to gate content of questionable taste and quality).

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

We have a plan in place, and I think you will like it. Just keep an All Points Bulletin open and Reload often for when it comes up.

Well considering that CoH only allowed for client-side modding if CoT manages to offer ANY kind of system for players to get server-side costume/prop customizations it's going to be a great improvement.

I understand the engineering limitations you mentioned that would tend to preclude allowing for player developed items, but even if there were no technical hurdles I still contend there would have been the problems of policing all of that content which might have made it too difficult to allow just on those grounds alone.

You can be assured people like me will be paying attention to any official news on this topic. I already have several ideas for some items/costumes I'd eventually like to get and I'd likely even be willing to pay premium prices to get them assuming the system will be geared to accept Fashionista-styled orders.

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Wow, the fact MWM is

Wow, the fact MWM is considering a way to implement player created costumes is incredible. I do some very basic levels of 3d modeling and know to just learn the ins and outs of making something as simple as a shoe can take a long time. Even the most simple of modeling programs are filled with stuff someone would have to learn in order to begin using it.
Does anyone have an example of how another game used this idea? (my search fu is weak).

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Again we know that the Kickstarter Fashionista perk cost $3,000 - would a post-launch equivalent to this cost a similar amount of money?
Like a true forumite, I am not going to allow incoming facts to get in the way of some baseless speculation.
My assumptions are that any costume (pieces) submitted by a player will, if accepted, be made available to everyone through the store, and that the submitter's reward will be the credit and seeing their costume realized. Since there is no exclusivity, no guarantee that the submission will be accepted, no time frame for when the submission will be available, and given that the costume will generate some revenue, the cost for submission need not need to be anywhere near that carried by the KS Fashionista perk. In other words, it casts Doctor Tyche's idea of having a license for submissions in a new light (besides serving to gate content of questionable taste and quality).

Well jumping on the loaded assumption that we'll be getting some kind of system that will allow players to "order/suggest" new items from the Devs I'll start by assuming it'll work in a similar fashion to what little we do know about - the Kickstarter Fashionista Perk.

To begin with I have never been a fan or PERMANENT exclusivity for anything in a MMO. But to be honest I actually don't mind the "1 year or 4 Issues" concept MWM came up with for many of the Kickstarter perks. Maybe they could even gear it so that the cost of getting one of these done might be cheaper if you specifically allow it to be a public option from the start instead of having any period of exclusivity. This is a minor point to me either way.

As far as how much these things should actually cost I agree they might not need to be as expensive as the Kickstarter Fashionista, but I still would expect them to be relatively expensive if for no other reason than to limit the total number of orders the Devs get. They might be able to handle a few dozen of these here and there but if they get thousands of orders they'll never get them all done. I also agree that it could take a random number of weeks/months for individual orders to be completed. No problem with that.

That leaves the "license for submissions" idea. That one admittedly has me a bit confused under this scheme. Would that mean that we'd first have to pay for the "privilege" of being able to order customized items? Wouldn't the cost of placing an order be enough of a "gate for questionable taste and quality" in and of itself? Would that mean if I accidentally submit an order for something the Devs didn't approve of once they could bar me from ever attempting to order again? Obviously I don't have enough info on this point to understand what good this could be for.

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Wow, the fact MWM is considering a way to implement player created costumes is incredible. I do some very basic levels of 3d modeling and know to just learn the ins and outs of making something as simple as a shoe can take a long time. Even the most simple of modeling programs are filled with stuff someone would have to learn in order to begin using it.
Does anyone have an example of how another game used this idea? (my search fu is weak).

Well an obvious example of this is what they allow for in Second Life. Basically "players" of Second Life are given nearly unlimited access to code/script anything they want to have. It's really the core foundation of what Second Life is all about.

As far as a "for profit MMO" like CoT goes I can't really off-hand think of another one that lets its players directly code costume items, mostly for the reasons against it that have been discussed in this thread. Maybe EQ Landmark will allow for it but I'm not entirely sure of that. *shrugs*

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

That leaves the "license for submissions" idea. That one admittedly has me a bit confused under this scheme. Would that mean that we'd first have to pay for the "privilege" of being able to order customized items? Wouldn't the cost of placing an order be enough of a "gate for questionable taste and quality" in and of itself? Would that mean if I accidentally submit an order for something the Devs didn't approve of once they could bar me from ever attempting to order again? Obviously I don't have enough info on this point to understand what good this could be for.

I was working with the idea that submissions would be just that: submissions for consideration. Like sending a demo tape to a studio or an entry into any kind of contest. The only thing that could reasonably be guaranteed is that the submission will be considered. To an extent the license would work as a 'serious inquiries only' hurdle (as well as a potential deterrent against insalubrious submissions).

For the aspect of placing an order, I agree, KS Fashionista would appear to be a good benchmark for expectations. In either case, since the costume will ultimately be created by MWM artists there is no question that checks will be in place against offensive subject matter ("I feel kinda dirty when I draw this. Wait a minute...").

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Lothic wrote:
That leaves the "license for submissions" idea. That one admittedly has me a bit confused under this scheme. Would that mean that we'd first have to pay for the "privilege" of being able to order customized items? Wouldn't the cost of placing an order be enough of a "gate for questionable taste and quality" in and of itself? Would that mean if I accidentally submit an order for something the Devs didn't approve of once they could bar me from ever attempting to order again? Obviously I don't have enough info on this point to understand what good this could be for.
I was working with the idea that submissions would be just that: submissions for consideration. Like sending a demo tape to a studio or an entry into any kind of contest. The only thing that could reasonably be guaranteed is that the submission will be considered. To an extent the license would work as a 'serious inquiries only' hurdle (as well as a potential deterrent against insalubrious submissions).

I see what you're saying - I still just don't see the net advantage the Devs would gain from such a scenario. Let's say this "license" costs any player $10. Why does my willingness to pay this $10 make my suggested ideas any more valid or serious? Again I think the fact that actually "ordering" one of these items (that for the sake of argument might cost $100) would be enough of a "serious inquiries only" hurdle to this. If I'm willing to spend $100 on something I'm probably pretty serious about my intent and not likely to do it just to fool around.

Darth Fez wrote:

For the aspect of placing an order, I agree, KS Fashionista would appear to be a good benchmark for expectations. In either case, since the costume will ultimately be created by MWM artists there is no question that checks will be in place against offensive subject matter ("I feel kinda dirty when I draw this. Wait a minute...").

Right. A key benefit of MWM doing all the creation work for these items is that the concern over "questionable player content" making its way into the game is an automatic non-issue.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I see what you're saying - I still just don't see the net advantage the Devs would gain from such a scenario.

The intent with that scenario is to throw the gate wide to maximize submissions from players. There are obvious pros and cons to such an approach, and the potential workload of going through all the submissions may easily outweigh the benefits. If placing orders à la KS Fashionista remains possible it would likely behoove MWM to restrict that approach to contests (perhaps once or twice per year).

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Lothic wrote:
I see what you're saying - I still just don't see the net advantage the Devs would gain from such a scenario.
The intent with that scenario is to throw the gate wide to maximize submissions from players. There are obvious pros and cons to such an approach, and the potential workload of going through all the submissions may easily outweigh the benefits. If placing orders à la KS Fashionista remains possible it would likely behoove MWM to restrict that approach to contests (perhaps once or twice per year).

Sure if the Devs get a thousand suggestions a day for new costume items there'd be no hope that many of them would even get read much less implemented. But if instead of "suggestions" they just got say 5 direct orders for specific items a day then they could easily sift through them for approval and queue them up for creation.

The Devs are always going to get plenty of "suggestions" regardless. I really don't think that my paying say $10 for a "license" to offer suggestions is going to guarantee that anything I suggest would be any more worthy of attention than anything else.

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IIRC, Pirates of the Burning

IIRC, Pirates of the Burning Sea had a player-submission-and approval system, but the details that I recall were sketchy.

There's always some fear that you could get so flooded with "junk" content that too much dev time is wasted sorting through the crap to find the good stuff. A small submission fee (as I saw above) serves to reduce the spam. Another way is to crowdsource the filtering-- submissions can be reviewed by peers and voted upon. Submissions that get a certain threshold of votes get flagged for dev review. On the downside, these places tend to become junkyards demonstrating the "time to cock" effect if anyone can submit for free. You'd need to crowdsource those with a 'report' feature as well.

You also would have to set acceptable limits. I recall that in the user-created-content nirvana/hell that was Second Life there were some hairstyles that were so poly-count-excessive that they'd lock up lesser PC's. Some people will want excessively high-def textures and some will be lamenting that they can't access zone X because of the lag they encounter.

Next, be sure to consider intellectual property issues. On any game mod site, you can see people that submit outfits copied from game x or game y. The devs would need something rather ironclad legally to protect themselves in the chance that a user submission wasn't entirely original.

I've seen proposals for how MMO-like games could have entire "distributable player-made-mod packs" tossed around by people with actual time in the industry, so these are ideas that are actively discussed (and have been for some time, since the last dev-related confrerence I'd have overheard this at was a half decade ago) but something seems to prevent these ideas from making them to the real world

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Sony do it for Planetside 2,

Sony do it for Planetside 2, Everquest 1 and 2 and Free Realms.

[url=https://www.planetside2.com/player-studio]Sony Player Studio page[/url], just so you are aware.

It is also worth noting that not everything that is submitted gets included, but those that *DO* make it in, the players get a cut of the money from the store (apparently).

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Sony do it for Planetside 2, Everquest 1 and 2 and Free Realms.
Sony Player Studio page, just so you are aware.
It is also worth noting that not everything that is submitted gets included, but those that *DO* make it in, the players get a cut of the money from the store (apparently).

Yup that's pretty much what I figured. Its a great option for those few who already have some skill in that area but its not going to be for anyone who just has an idea of a costume and wants to fiddle around.
I can actually see the forum posts now...
'Looking for artist to make my super cool mix between homer simpson, spawn and a head of cabbage costume, I can pay 2 ticket stubs from when I saw Pauly Shore in 'Othello 2: Moor of a Good Thing.'
It's a great option and would love being able to submit a costume but damn.. so few players will ever use this even if they wanted to.
(Disclaimer: Entirely my opinion. Not to be taken as fact. Is a direct response to the quote and not based on the way the good doctor explained)

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Sony do it for Planetside 2, Everquest 1 and 2 and Free Realms.
Sony Player Studio page, just so you are aware.
It is also worth noting that not everything that is submitted gets included, but those that *DO* make it in, the players get a cut of the money from the store (apparently).

I should give SOE more credit than I do. While there may be some complaints about the approval process, its still a notable element. IIRC, they hosted Pirates of the Burning Sea when it first came out, so I wonder if they were inspired by that model. They've shown a willingnes to experiment, have kept games online well past population thresholds of other games, and for titles that DO shut down, they're rather tolerant of fan emulators (SWGEmu) and letting the original developers buy back the game and continue hosting it on their own (Pirates of the Burning Sea).

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It is a shame that, generally

It is a shame that, generally speaking, SOE seem to be rather trigger happy when they DO shut games down, generally announcing them in groups at a time.

And to be fair about SWG, it is going back to *previous* version of the game that they were not even selling when SWG finally did close down (in fact the game changed *considerably* in just one patch/expansion to be called an entirely different game).

So for them, I believe that they would be more inclined to say that it is a problem for Lucasfilm to contend with, even if the work DID start whilst SWG was up and running. It is also worth noting that the private server for SWGEmu *do not* provide a link for you to download the game. That is for you to find (or if you own a copy of the game, like me, I can patch up from that). Also, any money that they DO receive is fully accounted for and made public as to where it gets spent for the server hosting.

If anything they are trying to keep this as above board as possible, where the only real worry would be from Disney/Lucasfilms now (it is their IP of course).

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Evidently this Monday has me

Evidently this Monday has me on a necromancy kick. Since this is the first thread I found that discusses player created costumes: [url=http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-06-01-lego-mmo-development-dogged-by-dong-detection-software]dong detection[/url]!

Obviously MWM has fewer concerns in this respect than does a huge, international brand like Lego, but it does highlight the moderation concerns.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Evidently this Monday has me on a necromancy kick. Since this is the first thread I found that discusses player created costumes: dong detection!
Obviously MWM has fewer concerns in this respect than does a huge, international brand like Lego, but it does highlight the moderation concerns.

I could see where a LEGO based MMO would be the absolute nightmare in terms of what the Devs would have to do to try to moderate/police naughty imagery coming from player submitted content. After all the entire point of LEGO is to provide for a system that allows its users/players to construct anything they want. At least a game like CoT would be far more limited in scope to things like costumes and chest logos. It's not like the point of CoT would be to create EVERYTHING in the game like it would be in a LEGO game.

Suffice it to say I doubt the CoT Devs will ever have to worry about automated "dong detection" filters, especially assuming anything that's ever player submitted would first reviewed by human GMs regardless.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Suffice it to say I doubt the CoT Devs will ever have to worry about automated "dong detection" filters, especially assuming anything that's ever player submitted would first reviewed by human GMs regardless.

Oh, it'll happen. There will always be some darned combination of base parts. Though rather than going the "dong detection" route, I'd hope they could just use "NSFW flagging" on bases, where dongs get reported by players (screenshot and coordinates in the report) in bases and investigated by GMs as possible. Because it's worth it if we can get custom art in there.

Did Minecraft do any dong detection?

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I do not believe that the

I do not believe that the Minecraft people ever concerned themselves with it. However, they needn't do so for the same reason that it's less of a concern for MWM: neither is dealing with a product (a toy, as it were) that's essentially targeted at children. You can imagine the uproar if some helicopter parent sees something that looks like a penis (or other "offensive" anatomical feature) on their child's computer screen. Nor is Lego in a position to be able to state, "Dude, that has only the vaguest resemblance to a penis. Chill out."

All that said, Lego Worlds is now available on Steam early access. Perhaps they've had a DD breakthrough.

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Suffice it to say I doubt the CoT Devs will ever have to worry about automated "dong detection" filters, especially assuming anything that's ever player submitted would first reviewed by human GMs regardless.

Oh, it'll happen. There will always be some darned combination of base parts. Though rather than going the "dong detection" route, I'd hope they could just use "NSFW flagging" on bases, where dongs get reported by players (screenshot and coordinates in the report) in bases and investigated by GMs as possible. Because it's worth it if we can get custom art in there.
Did Minecraft do any dong detection?

There's a difference between being clever enough to arrange a handful of "non-interlocking" base parts to create naughty images and a system which literally provides parts intended for building things. To put it into toy terms it's much easier to build a phallus-shaped object with LEGOs (and by extension virtual LEGOs inside a computer game) than it is to build one by arranging a bunch of random dollhouse parts or star wars action figures.

Basically it'll be enough for players to report other players for naughty imagery they manage to create with a bunch of random SG base parts. There will be no need to develop some kind of automated base scanner software that will be able to parse through the locations of all base items and deduce whether there could be something inappropriate about them relative to certain 3D points of view. That would be ridiculously overblown and practically impossible even if MWM had multiple millions of dollars to work with.

Even your idea of custom posters/paintings/art for SG bases would likely have to fall under GM vetting before they're allowed into game because the idea of them wasting effort to impose automated AI-based checkers for such things is also extremely impractical.

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Dunno if this is the right

Dunno if this is the right thread to post this, that being said: I have been playing heavily modded skyrim and the one feature that I like the most is the SKSE file mod that lets you customize the model of your character. Now for those who are not familiar with it, I can change the characters face from the vanilla to anything I want. Change their size, arms etc. So I am asking will there be such a feature in game to allow me to look completely different from anyone or will it just be default and it is mainly textures on costumes and the like?

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All 4 Mutants wrote:
All 4 Mutants wrote:

Dunno if this is the right thread to post this, that being said: I have been playing heavily modded skyrim and the one feature that I like the most is the SKSE file mod that lets you customize the model of your character. Now for those who are not familiar with it, I can change the characters face from the vanilla to anything I want. Change their size, arms etc. So I am asking will there be such a feature in game to allow me to look completely different from anyone or will it just be default and it is mainly textures on costumes and the like?
All 4 Mutants

There's a basic difference between the type of character mods you can do for a game as "client only" and the kind of mods which would be viewable by anyone else across a MMO server. Since Skyrim was a single-player, non-server based game every mod possible for it was by default a client only type mod. Since you were only modding your copy of the game you obviously had no way to affect anyone else's gameplay.

CoH also allowed for "client only" mods even though many people didn't actually realize it. The game allowed you to change some things like costume textures and audio files, but it was no where near as flexible as what you could do in Skyrim. For instance as far as I know there was no way to change the actual character models like you were describing.

Even if CoT allows for the same kind of modding that CoH did there would still be the issue with the limitation that none of those mods would be viewable by anyone else across the game servers. You might decide to mod the texture of a certain costume item to something else locally on your computer but everyone else would continue to see it as the default item loaded into their machines unless specific players also modded their own clients in the exact same way you did.

So modding in a game like this boils down to whether or not you cared if anyone else could see your unique mods or not. If you want your characters to look a certain way on your screen and don't really care if everyone else just sees a weird mishmash of default costume items when they look at you then you'll be fine.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

All 4 Mutants wrote:
Dunno if this is the right thread to post this, that being said: I have been playing heavily modded skyrim and the one feature that I like the most is the SKSE file mod that lets you customize the model of your character. Now for those who are not familiar with it, I can change the characters face from the vanilla to anything I want. Change their size, arms etc. So I am asking will there be such a feature in game to allow me to look completely different from anyone or will it just be default and it is mainly textures on costumes and the like?
All 4 Mutants

There's a basic difference between the type of character mods you can do for a game as "client only" and the kind of mods which would be viewable by anyone else across a MMO server. Since Skyrim was a single-player, non-server based game every mod possible for it was by default a client only type mod. Since you were only modding your copy of the game you obviously had no way to affect anyone else's gameplay.
CoH also allowed for "client only" mods even though many people didn't actually realize it. The game allowed you to change some things like costume textures and audio files, but it was no where near as flexible as what you could do in Skyrim. For instance as far as I know there was no way to change the actual character models like you were describing.
Even if CoT allows for the same kind of modding that CoH did there would still be the issue with the limitation that none of those mods would be viewable by anyone else across the game servers. You might decide to mod the texture of a certain costume item to something else locally on your computer but everyone else would continue to see it as the default item loaded into their machines unless specific players also modded their own clients in the exact same way you did.
So modding in a game like this boils down to whether or not you cared if anyone else could see your unique mods or not. If you want your characters to look a certain way on your screen and don't really care if everyone else just sees a weird mishmash of default costume items when they look at you then you'll be fine.

Fair enough, using Skyrim mod example was a bad choice. But the idea was still along those lines, I have found that ESO's character creator which kinda comparable to SKSE mod in Skyrim. I mean you can change the eyes, alter ears, cheek, neck size, forehead and so on. Do you think we will see that here?

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All 4 Mutants wrote:
All 4 Mutants wrote:

Fair enough, using Skyrim mod example was a bad choice. But the idea was still along those lines, I have found that ESO's character creator which kinda comparable to SKSE mod in Skyrim. I mean you can change the eyes, alter ears, cheek, neck size, forehead and so on. Do you think we will see that here?
All 4 Mutants

Any kind of "modding" ability we have in CoT will of course depend on what the Devs can/will allow.

Having said that based on everything the CoT Devs have told us so far we will likely have quite a bit of control over how we can modify our characters' shapes using the in-game character creation GUI tools. We might not get millions of sliders, but I'm sure it'll be far better than the handful of slider controls we got in CoH. It's probably safe to say we'll have decent control over everything you mentioned (eyes, ears, cheek, neck size, forehead, etc.) and more.

Remember that one of the original notable strengths of CoH was its character/costume creation system. If CoT is going to have a serious chance to make it as a "spiritual successor" of CoH then we'll have to assume we're going to get as much character creation freedom as possible.

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