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Currency Alternatives

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chase
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Currency Alternatives

Alternative "Currency"
Background You Can Skip
I'm going to avoid the use of our illustrious predecessor's "inf" and instead use the generic MMO term "gold" for the most part here.

A game's currency is often its primary reward. it's also one of the first things to go awry in a game's economy. Within months of release, the flood of currency into the game changes many dynamics- whether its the upper-level character that earns more in one hour than the lowbie earned in one day using that money to create an endowment for his alts or marketplaces with increasingly overinflated prices. Economists have even coined the term "MUDflation" to characterize the unique rapid inflation dynamic of MMOs. Game companies have contracted with real academic Economists to address this issue and fared no better.

Oftentimes, a game's currency gets to the point that you don't want to use it for new rewards in new releases. We saw that in CoH, where Vanguard merits were introduced to purchase rewards associated with the rikti content- an alternate form of "currency" for that region's reward so you can't just bring in your large gold loot and get everythign without going through the content. Incarnate content-- another form of currency-- architect tickets, etc. Each compartamentalizes the reward for a new system to prevent the painfully overinflated original currency from dominating the system.

Sometimes there's an 'exchange rate' of sorts... at least in one direction, and often at very steep rates (buy salvage with the architect tickets, sell salvage for inf, spend your excess Vanguard merits on an incarnate salvage, deconstruct that salvage to a generic piece, etc)

Game companies have brought in Economists to help them curb mudflation before, but not with any significant success. I'd rather not pretend that we can do it better than those professionals- assume that all the old mudflation problems will happen, along with all the social and gameplay and reward-based issues that they bring about.

-------------------------------------

So, I'm tossing out a curveball that even I feel is kinda heretical:

why saddle ourselves with that known system and wait until things go bad to try to tack a new system on top of it? Start early!

Compartamentalize "currency" rewards right off the bat.

If we're going with the "it's not money, its inf... err... street credit we're earning" (whatver we are calling it), then fine: make the street cred have a limited range (a single zone or a few zones of a common level, tops). Imagine it as "vanguard merits" on steroids- you get credit fitting to the context of your actions.

As you progress through the city, you have to otherwise make a name for yourself in each neighborhood. The inf... Cred earned there is exerted there (buying rewards in that zone, or trading in the market using that currency for that zone's reward.

Ridiculous? oh yes.

Does that hinder trade? Possibly- but it would also mean that the entry-level zones use currency earned only in the entry-level areas, preventing a bunch of level 50's from easily driving up the costs to far above what a latecoming player would expect to earn in his first 20 levels.

What about the classic institutions in MMO's, like player patronage giving lowbies bling? They'll be ineffective and new institutions will have to arise.

Does it challenge old expectations? Certainly, and many "who moved my cheese" moments will ensue. We're used to the way things are everywhere else, along with the kludgy institutions that have grown into the MMO/MUDspace to try to patch together the old system.

Are you insane? Yes... I plead the "twinkie defense"-- Sugar High. Cinder left the bowl of candy for trick-or-treaters too close to my work desk today.....

we can stick with a system that has a lot of very predictable, known problems and live with those problems or we can break expectations and barrel through a glorious bunch of new and exciting challenges!

Thoughts? Comments? Smart Remarks?

Argus
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It's not heretical. It's not

It's not heretical. It's not a bad idea at all. A lot of games have multiple currencies with different rewards now.

Some have diamonds (gems, or whatever) can be earned in game or purchased with real world money. An auction house allows player to player trade. However, the use of this currency is usually limited to specific things. Other currencies are used to represent in game action (karma, marks, merits, cred, etc) which have specific uses.

What ever currencies are used, CoT needs to avoid having too many different types. Once you get more than a handful it gets not only confusing but annoying.

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"What about the classic

"What about the classic institutions in MMO's, like player patronage giving lowbies bling? They'll be ineffective and new institutions will have to arise."

Why should they be ineffective at all?

Posit: We use the system you describe, breaking each character's career up into 5 areas of 10 levels each (just for the sake of argument). I run my new toon through all the level 1-10 content and earn 100k in Gold (consider this a typical amount with no Market workings of patronage). No let's say that for whatever reason I only choose to spend 50k of this. Reasoning doesn't matter...maybe I'm frugal. Maybe I was in a great team and we leveled so fast I didn't have time to spend it...whatever.

So why can't I mail this to my brand new lvl 1 that I made up yesterday (who may not be so frugal or may not find a great team)? My lvl 10 character will now be earning lvl 11-20 swag soon anyhow so why bother dumping a bunch of cash on him? Why can't I repeat this every ten levels until I hit 50?

The point is your system still works just in a different way. Patronage will be tiered but it will still happen. Stuff earned by a 50 will be useless to a new toon and the earning potential of a toon within the same range won't be unlimited.

My main complaint with the Market has always been that level 50s with more cash than patience can drive up prices whether they mean to or not, making some early stuff out of a lowby's reach. Your system, if implemented, might just solve this problem as well as limiting inflation. A new toon would only have to compete with other new toons for Gold and Marketing. Sure, a lvl 50 can still flip stuff on the Market. However he will no longer be compelled to by stuff dropped at lower levels to craft with.

I'd like to see this tested during Alpha/Beta.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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There is an alternative I'm

There is an alternative I'm surprised no MMORPG has never employed before, at least to no great degree. That is, to eliminate currency in its entirety. Make it a barter market. Of course, you would either have to envision a complex workaround to make it so there can still be NPC vendors, but the way I see it, NPC vendor costs have always been a matter of money sinks. If you make everything you get from NPCs free, you remove that irritating grind. If you make it so you will only ever need commodities to trade with other players, it removes all need for any sort of money sink and eliminates the threat of inflation. It is natural that after a while the market will decide what is the commodity people trade in, but that commodity will be consumable, it will be, in all likelihood, the commodity needed in the vastest quantities for crafting. That means as soon as someone farms it, it will be consumed. If anyone stockpiles it, the value will plummet and people will decide on a new commodity to trade in. It's a wonderful system. Maybe not the most thematic for this sort of game, but as far as MMORPG economic systems go, I think it is the best alternative that hasn't been tried yet.

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Desperado wrote:
Desperado wrote:

There is an alternative I'm surprised no MMORPG has never employed before, at least to no great degree. That is, to eliminate currency in its entirety. Make it a barter market. Of course, you would either have to envision a complex workaround to make it so there can still be NPC vendors, but the way I see it, NPC vendor costs have always been a matter of money sinks. If you make everything you get from NPCs free, you remove that irritating grind. If you make it so you will only ever need commodities to trade with other players, it removes all need for any sort of money sink and eliminates the threat of inflation. It is natural that after a while the market will decide what is the commodity people trade in, but that commodity will be consumable, it will be, in all likelihood, the commodity needed in the vastest quantities for crafting. That means as soon as someone farms it, it will be consumed. If anyone stockpiles it, the value will plummet and people will decide on a new commodity to trade in. It's a wonderful system. Maybe not the most thematic for this sort of game, but as far as MMORPG economic systems go, I think it is the best alternative that hasn't been tried yet.

The bartering system *has* been used in other MMO's... Asherons Call used it apparently (well, that was more because the currency you earned was worthless, but the items you picked up/crafted/traded were more valuable.

It might not have been planned from directly, but that is what apparently happened.

Warcry article about it

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Desperado wrote:
There is an alternative I'm surprised no MMORPG has never employed before, at least to no great degree. That is, to eliminate currency in its entirety. Make it a barter market. Of course, you would either have to envision a complex workaround to make it so there can still be NPC vendors, but the way I see it, NPC vendor costs have always been a matter of money sinks. If you make everything you get from NPCs free, you remove that irritating grind. If you make it so you will only ever need commodities to trade with other players, it removes all need for any sort of money sink and eliminates the threat of inflation. It is natural that after a while the market will decide what is the commodity people trade in, but that commodity will be consumable, it will be, in all likelihood, the commodity needed in the vastest quantities for crafting. That means as soon as someone farms it, it will be consumed. If anyone stockpiles it, the value will plummet and people will decide on a new commodity to trade in. It's a wonderful system. Maybe not the most thematic for this sort of game, but as far as MMORPG economic systems go, I think it is the best alternative that hasn't been tried yet.

The bartering system *has* been used in other MMO's... Asherons Call used it apparently (well, that was more because the currency you earned was worthless, but the items you picked up/crafted/traded were more valuable.
It might not have been planned from directly, but that is what apparently happened.
Warcry article about it

It also worked out this way in Diablo II. Gold was pretty much worthless, so people traded items based on how many Stones of Jordan they were worth.

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I have to say, something

I have to say, something between (or combining) Chase and Comicsluvr's ideas would be amazing. I've been in many MMOs and faced the problems we all have with economy and unrealistic inflation, and this idea seems a very sound one. It allows for higher levelled characters to 'bling out' lower levels, while at the same time not prejudicing newbies against the game because of all the things they -can't- do due to over-inflated costs of materials/gear/cosmetic items etc.

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I like the idea, but one

I like the idea, but one problem I see with changing the currency every "X" levels is that you may not be able to afford anything in your level range until you're almost out of it and on to the next currency... depending on the prices of your "gear"... this would make it especially hard for a player newly breaking into the highest level range, because those who've been there a while would easily be able to inflate the max-level market to where it could take months for a newbie to acquire the cash needed to get equipment or whatever.

The ability to up-convert currency may soften the blow slightly, but it wouldn't evaporate the problem. I suppose having NPC vendors (which is probably a given) could alleviate some of the issue at least. I think the biggest problem would be changing to "Y" currency after "X" level, and being able to acquire level-appropriate gear, boosts or what have you. figure a stable way around that and it could work pretty well.

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CEO of Phoenix Rising

CoX: @Mystic Cross ; @Pareidolia // CO: @Deadman-X ; @Citymystic // CoT: @Cross ; @D.A.Cross

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

My main complaint with the Market has always been that level 50s with more cash than patience can drive up prices whether they mean to or not, making some early stuff out of a lowby's reach. Your system, if implemented, might just solve this problem as well as limiting inflation. A new toon would only have to compete with other new toons for Gold and Marketing.

In my view this could make using the market a pain.

1. When listing or looking for items, people would have to double-check to be certain that they have the currency they want.
2. Even with a somewhat punitive exchange rate, an active higher level character (especially at the level cap) will still have more buying power than anyone in a lower level range.
3. It splits the market between currencies, since there will be people who will post lower level items for higher level currencies. A lot of people are likely to prefer buying a level 20 item with their level 50 currency than bother with the extra step of converting their level 50 currency to level 20 currency, first. Also, as people get close to or reach level 20, they may want to set themselves up for the next currency range and so begin listing all their current level range items for currency in the next level range (especially if there is no means to exchange lower level currency into higher level currency).

The same is true for purchases from any NPCs. Every time someone wants to buy something for a low level alt they'd first need to exchange the currency. To me all this would very quickly begin to feel like I'm working in currencies exchange instead of playing a MMO.

I feel that the game would also have a hard time avoiding the implication that some heroes can't buy anything certain parts of the city because "we don't serve your kind here".

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I thought this has a bit of

I thought this has a bit of potential, if we use gold for buying consumables and other quick use readily available items, then use (Titan coins), which could be % drop chance or mission rewards to buy your bling/enhancements, similar to SWTOR planetary commendations. Combined with a conversion rate, which could bridge that level change gap.

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I'm hoping for less in the

I'm hoping for less in the way of number of currencies, not more. Money that you can only use at a certain level that becomes useless so you need to send it to someone or give it away, use it or loose it. Items you can only by with the right level currency. I understand that there will be multiple currencies in a game like this but adding more to it in this way sounds like a royal pita to me.

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Hube2 wrote:
Hube2 wrote:

I'm hoping for less in the way of number of currencies, not more.

I was wondering if anyone was going to mention this. Although I don't necessarily agree with the philosophy, the old forums had a very good share of people who complained about having "too many currencies" in the game. We're already seeing that in the "List of things I don't like about City of Heroes" / "things that City of Titans can be improved on" list.

And ya know, I'm not really sure if having Hero (XXV) saving the first 80 percent of the city over a period of months is going to be washed away with a "Hey, what've you done in MY voting distract pal?" attitude from the last 20 percent.

It just occurred to me that the idea of having parts of the city cut up like the modern voting distracts would be the worst idea ever. I'm glad no MMO would do it.

J

EDIT Oh, I left out the part where I comment on the part you left out. You don't actually talk about the effects of the 'problem of inflation' past bad and really bad and you I'm not really sold on the "proof" you cite. Also, do you have an example of problems relating to inflation people would actually care about? I'm not really sold on the "lots of level 50's can make things more expensive for beginners" in a game of thousands, tens of thousand or more. After all, City of Heroes had a set price from NPC's for small inspirations (temporary stat powerups and health/ stamila, for non City of Heroes players). They never changed and yet I could buy medium and sometimes larger inspirations for cheaper than that. At worst it's a bit of power creep, but hardly a game changer.

But back to your comments.

Quote:

We saw that in CoH, where Vanguard merits were introduced to purchase rewards associated with the rikti content- an alternate form of "currency" for that region's reward so you can't just bring in your large gold loot and get everything without going through the content. Incarnate content-- another form of currency-- architect tickets, etc. Each compartmentalizes the reward for a new system to prevent the painfully over-inflated original currency from dominating the system.

First the Architect Entertainment (the mission creation system for those not familiar with City of Heroes) did NOT introduce tickets to replace INF, the generic term for currency for all three parts of the game. You still got your INF. They introduced it to replace random drops (enhancements and a few other things) that the game wasn't giving you.

So basically they're giving you coffee and a doughnut instead of coffee and a muffin and you're arguing they changed the muffin to a doughnut to avoid giving you more coffee, and I suddenly wish I'd had breakfast this morning.

Not to be rude here, and I really hope it doesn't seem that way but where's your source for the belief that the new currencies have anything to do with inflation? Past it fitting your beliefs I mean.

I was with City of Heroes for the introduction of those rewards. If they simply used INF to pay for them, wouldn't that INF basically be drained from the game as it would be going to NPC's, who are notorious INF hogs?

And yes, you mention the opposite of that - people with billions of influence saved up (possibly stolen from old grandma's, but who am I to judge?) ready to buy up the new content as soon as it hit streets. But that sounds more about exclusivity for the new rewards than inflation. Especially for non tradable rewards.

But how does that not occur under this system anyway, especially with top end item? Once I hit the level cap, how am I not bringing in scores of in-game currency, enough to buy any new item which can be purchased with it? Do you then introduce new currency for the new content in classic MMO style *on top of* a different type of currency for every neighborhood in the game?

I propose Halloween events drop candy dust as the currency and I hope I am the first to suggest this! *hopeful smile*

If we have level 25-30 heroes with their ability to get more from friends or to sell to higher levels in the game because "Your money's worthless to me, son, I'm a level 40," isn't that also encouraging less legitimate overseas operations to come here trying to sell the level 25's of the game hordes and hordes of currency cheap? Possibly after farming them.. somewhere? Somewhere generically 'bad.'

Can my level 40 get ANYTHING hunting in a zone for a level 20? Obviously we pretty much need a sidekick/ exemplar system to let me 'match' the level of a friend at that level. So .. I'm simply forced to go back to each zone and play through it for separate influence for my weird collection needs? Wouldn't that just seem like a huge artificial hassle to the average 'in and out' (burger) MMO'er?

On top of that, if there is anything in the real-world store related to increasing or buying currency, it's going to look like the 'neighborhood influence' is just part of a larger money grabbing scheme. "Going to a new neighborhood? Either farm it for new influence for any goodies sold here for the first 2 or 3 levels, or give us some cash to buy things here so you're not gimped."

(That's using the definition of 'gimped' as non optimal, mind you. Which is unfortunately a very common use of it in MMO'ing.)

Hmmmm. I think that's it. I have to give you credit though. Asking yourself "Does it challenge old expectations?" is a very nuanced way of saying "Isn't the main and only problem with your idea is it's too brilliantly original?"

No just kidding. But I totally should start doing that with my own ideas.

J

Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
COT: Mission tips writer, studying Cinema 4D animation program

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A part of me likes the idea

A part of me likes the idea of having local currency specific to a zone, and global currency that can be used city wide. Anything you do that would earn money rewards in the game might provide a majority reward in local currency, a minority reward in global currency. Local currency represents a kind of "what have you done for/to me lately?" attitude among the populace most familiar with you. Global currency represents more of a "yeah, I've heard about you" attitude, reflecting those that know OF you but don't really know you.

The problem is that we haven't REALLY solved the problem of multiple currencies by doing this. All we've done is shift the terminology. Player's would have separate currencies for each zone (as local currency) and still another on top of that for global currency. Based on what we know so far from the Kickstarter stretch goals, the Devs have up to 20 zones in mind. If each zone has its own local currency and a global currency on top of that, that's 21 different currencies right there.

This further begs the question, "what's the point of the difference between the these"? If the player has lots of currency in Zone A, and less currency for Zones B and C, why bother buying anything in Zone B or C? Why not just go back to Zone A and buy everything there? There would have to be a reason to want to build currency somewhere else than for Zone A.

I'm not sure how to fix the currency issue, but that's partly due to use being in the dark about some details about the Devs have in mind for the game's economy.

Flafty of the Guardian Server

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Desperado wrote:
There is an alternative I'm surprised no MMORPG has never employed before, at least to no great degree. That is, to eliminate currency in its entirety. Make it a barter market. Of course, you would either have to envision a complex workaround to make it so there can still be NPC vendors, but the way I see it, NPC vendor costs have always been a matter of money sinks. If you make everything you get from NPCs free, you remove that irritating grind. If you make it so you will only ever need commodities to trade with other players, it removes all need for any sort of money sink and eliminates the threat of inflation. It is natural that after a while the market will decide what is the commodity people trade in, but that commodity will be consumable, it will be, in all likelihood, the commodity needed in the vastest quantities for crafting. That means as soon as someone farms it, it will be consumed. If anyone stockpiles it, the value will plummet and people will decide on a new commodity to trade in. It's a wonderful system. Maybe not the most thematic for this sort of game, but as far as MMORPG economic systems go, I think it is the best alternative that hasn't been tried yet.

The bartering system *has* been used in other MMO's... Asherons Call used it apparently (well, that was more because the currency you earned was worthless, but the items you picked up/crafted/traded were more valuable.
It might not have been planned from directly, but that is what apparently happened.
Warcry article about it

Funny you should say that. Even though I no longer play it, I'm a big fan of Asheron's Call for many reasons, but it didn't really have that element after pyreals were made 0 burden. Although alternative currencies in that game are prevalent, the main form of trading is in MMD Notes, which are effectively pyreals that reduce packspace. With regard to Diablo II, like Asheron's Call, they still had an original currency. I think the best economic system for a MMORPG is no currency whatsoever, make it a barter market by its very nature. I'm not sure it would work with the theme of City of Titans, especially as I don't know what their crafting market looks like, but it is the best system that has never been done before.

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I like the idea of one

I like the idea of one currency "Titan Dollars" its a game why make it more complicated?
there are always gonna be people that horde or save or spend but with one currency "Titan Dollars" then everyone has the same chance . its what we do after is what matters

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The idea of a strictly Barter

The idea of a strictly Barter system has merits and I'd like to see it explored. However one of the issues that might arise is buying stuff NOT used directly on toons such as Base items. Now if the Base Vendor is willing to take 4 Jonas Hooks (a cheap, common Magic drop) for a sofa then that might work. He might want 5 Cyclop's Eyes (a rare Magic drop) for the Megacomputer though.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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graff wrote:
graff wrote:

I like the idea of one currency "Titan Dollars" its a game why make it more complicated?
there are always gonna be people that horde or save or spend but with one currency "Titan Dollars" then everyone has the same chance . its what we do after is what matters

I've never understood why having multiple currencies was complicated to begin with.

But why have them, multiple reasons. First they can be a way to allow people of any level range to contribute equally. Prestige did this, basing the amount gained by an individual dependent on challenge and not level. It can also tie specific rewards to specific efforts, such as the Vanguard merits rewarding you for punching Rikti in the face. It can offer an alternative way to acquire items, like the AT tickets and merits. It can be used to stop players from jumping the gun on day one, this is why the incarnate threads were introduced for going beyond the alpha slot.

One you have just one kind of currency players will find the way they most like to earn it and run with that method. To a lot of people this is a bad thing. Multiple currencies help discourage this.

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

One you have just one kind of currency players will find the way they most like to earn it and run with that method. To a lot of people this is a bad thing. Multiple currencies help discourage this.

I can agree with that, but I haven't seen a good reason yet to introduce level specific money or zone specific money. Exactly what problem would this solve?

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Oh, I don't agree with level

Oh, I don't agree with level/zone currency, I was just explaining why having multiple currencies in and of itself is not a complicated or bad thing.

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AmbiDreamer wrote:
AmbiDreamer wrote:

Not to be rude here, and I really hope it doesn't seem that way but where's your source for the belief that the new currencies have anything to do with inflation? Past it fitting your beliefs I mean.

No insult taken. Several years back I was in the field of using game engines for trainng purposes for the DoD, including the interest if virtual world tech. This led me to be a participant in conferences and roundtables for a few years, talking to a few devs & even one or two of the economists they had worked with. Introducing a new "currency" for exchanging new rewards was the standard fare.

Also, IIRC, on the official boards, one of the devs used precisely the scenario of "using the hoarded inf to buy all the rewards" as one reason for the introduction of vangard merits, etc.

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

Posit: We use the system you describe, breaking each character's career up into 5 areas of 10 levels each (just for the sake of argument). I run my new toon through all the level 1-10 content and earn 100k in Gold (consider this a typical amount with no Market workings of patronage). No let's say that for whatever reason I only choose to spend 50k of this. Reasoning doesn't matter...maybe I'm frugal. Maybe I was in a great team and we leveled so fast I didn't have time to spend it...whatever.
So why can't I mail this to my brand new lvl 1 that I made up yesterday (who may not be so frugal or may not find a great team)? My lvl 10 character will now be earning lvl 11-20 swag soon anyhow so why bother dumping a bunch of cash on him? Why can't I repeat this every ten levels until I hit 50?

You're right, your level 10 could still significnatly influence the market or even "trade down to an alt, but the impact a level 10 can introduce will be signifcantly less (and the rate of growth significantly lower). Recall how CoH, your inf reward went up per level, so a level 50 could earn in 1 hour what would take even a level 10 days to earn.

I tend to translte "gold" to "time" a lot here, as time is a valuable commodity to the psyche. A level 50 character sees very little reason NOT to give away (or frivolously spend) 100,000 inf. That can be made up in a mission or two. A level 10 may not see money like that for quite some time. Because of this, level 50's in the same economic playground as the level 1 through 10's could wreak significant havoc, as it isn't just about what they've saved up while leveling, but how much incredibly more they earn in such a short time.

Now, when talking market dynamics, we have to be particularly careful that the tier's not so low that the time spent within those tiers is too small to generate enough random drops (or interest in random drops). That was one problem with CoH's first "tier" of the market system came close to having. The "supply" of much off the level 10-20 stuff, was somewhat low because you'd level significantly faster through those 10 levels than (for example) 30-40). Demand was somewhat lower as well, since if you KNEW you'd be breezing through those levels, why waste the inf? What should have been a tier for educating new players into the system became the tier for characters with so much inf to burn that they didn't care if they were going to breeze by or not.

Part of that might be mitigated if we get rid of the "pure player market" as others have mentioned and have some sort of alternative dev-controlled seeding method for the market (if an asset is unavailable for x minutes/hours, or is available but priced above a certain threshold, introduce a new one at the threshold rate)... as others have mentioned elsewhere.

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

The idea of a strictly Barter system has merits and I'd like to see it explored. However one of the issues that might arise is buying stuff NOT used directly on toons such as Base items. Now if the Base Vendor is willing to take 4 Jonas Hooks (a cheap, common Magic drop) for a sofa then that might work. He might want 5 Cyclop's Eyes (a rare Magic drop) for the Megacomputer though.

Yeah, barter systems are interesting. Rather than an auction house, you have a bulletin board:

"Have 4 jonas hooks. willing to trade for 2 Cyclops eyes."

Barter tends to take longer per transaction, though- any haggling is unlikely to be realtime and it may take time for someone with matching needs to find and respond to your post. Many times, you'd be willing to take something different, so maybe it'd function more as

"Have 4 jonas hooks, willing to tade for
2 cyclops eyes. OR
1 harpy bone OR
23 greeble feet.
"

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Okay, barter is neat, but it

Okay, barter is neat, but it just doesn't Work that well. It's the whole reason that Every civilization develops currency. That currency might be shells, or rocks, or cigarettes, feathers, disks of metal, or cheap bits of jewelry, or paper IOUs.

You see, maybe you want to buy that Mega-thruster, but all you have to trade is 'greeble-feet'. The guy with the Mega-thruster says, "I can't even use your greeble-feet. Get those smelly things out of here!" So you have to spend six days, trading greeble-feet for hex-nuts, because the market for hex-nuts is very unstable and maybe you had to go out and collect more greeble-feet because some of the ones you had got spoiled. Then you go back to the Mega-thruster guy and he says, "Hex-nuts! Exactly what I need! I'll give you a Golden Torso for all of the hex-nuts you have. What... Mega-thruster? Oh, I sold that yesterday."

Currency is much easier.

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Right, but, that isn't really

Right, but, that isn't really important because Jim with his mass farming spiraling the market into inflation buys the mega-thruster, as there is only one, way before anyone who doesn't abuse mechanics/play 60+ hours a week. What happens in the barter system is, hypothetically speaking, feathers does become the main form of currency, so the guy selling Mega-Thrusters will say he wants Hexnuts, but, if he has any sense, he'll also put a cost of feathers that he'll accept because then he can go and buy his own Hexnuts, or spend it on something else.

Why is having feathers as the main tradeable commodity better than having a static currency? Because 1) feathers are the main ingredient in all crafting recipes so they are consumed swiftly, there is no doubt about that, everyone needs feathers and everyone is consuming feathers all the time, so an artificial sink (sinks are for flawed economic systems) is unnecessary because the game disposes of feathers as quickly as they are farmed. Additionally, if someone finds an exploit or creates some kind of massive surplus of feathers, stockpiling or whatever, the value of feathers will drop, and people will start trading metal disks instead, at least until the value of feathers levels out.

A barter system behaves the same way as a currency system except it's just better and solves all the problems with MMO economies.

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Why not make it essayer to

Why not make it essayer to establish the true value of the currency make all but the rarest crafting components purchasable with a reasonable price based on the level that can use it. Also don't do crafting ranks based on doing it over and over as that is biggest reason that the economy in mmos gets thrown off as you have 1000 people trying to sell 100 of object X each with only a small pool of buyers. I was a engineer in WoW and I found that even if I was trying to sell the best scope in the game nobody would buy it because all the other hunters of that level were engineers too and building their own scopes. So although having your craftsmen make a ton of stuff to increase the skill is good in a small player pool when the pool is flooded then player made stuff becomes almost useless and only drops have any value. But if the majority of craft items have a set price then people can figure that if chemical X cost 5 whatever, and mysterious compound J costs 10 and to craft a mutagen compound from them you use 3/5 then you know that the item is worth 65 in materials. Now people can grind mobs for those materials to save some money but most people who want to craft will most likely just grab what they need from a vendor and build it. Now I haven't looked into what the crafting system will be like in the game and never did much of it in CoX but however its done it will be the biggest factor in the economy of the game.

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Desperado wrote:
Desperado wrote:

Right, but, that isn't really important because Jim with his mass farming spiraling the market into inflation buys the mega-thruster, as there is only one, way before anyone who doesn't abuse mechanics/play 60+ hours a week. What happens in the barter system is, hypothetically speaking, feathers does become the main form of currency, so the guy selling Mega-Thrusters will say he wants Hexnuts, but, if he has any sense, he'll also put a cost of feathers that he'll accept because then he can go and buy his own Hexnuts, or spend it on something else.
Why is having feathers as the main tradeable commodity better than having a static currency? Because 1) feathers are the main ingredient in all crafting recipes so they are consumed swiftly, there is no doubt about that, everyone needs feathers and everyone is consuming feathers all the time, so an artificial sink (sinks are for flawed economic systems) is unnecessary because the game disposes of feathers as quickly as they are farmed. Additionally, if someone finds an exploit or creates some kind of massive surplus of feathers, stockpiling or whatever, the value of feathers will drop, and people will start trading metal disks instead, at least until the value of feathers levels out.
A barter system behaves the same way as a currency system except it's just better and solves all the problems with MMO economies.

Of course, I could just make the game's defined currency an ingredient in every crafting element, give it sufficient in-game sinks to drain it from the game, and make its drop rate low enough that its use and consumption would effectively match feathers.

When economists examined this, they found that the barter economy item was usually rather subject to mudflation as well- the degraded speed of transaction helped mitigate the speed of inflation. Farmers moved to the locations of the drops for the new currency item, if they were predictable, and dominated these markets- and it was mostly their hoarding that kept the apparent circulation of these seem so stable. Eventually, they'd purge their reserves, flood the market, and create moments of such hyperinflation that people look to other assets to be the new currency.

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COH is the only MMO I played

COH is the only MMO I played consistently, so the COH currencies seem "normal" to me. I thought the multiple currencies were ok -- kind of interesting, and some interconvertibility was a positive.

My question is this -- why does a level 50 get more gold for killing a level 50 enemy than a level 1 gets for killing a level 1 enemy? I can't see a reason for it.
It's just the way we played in COH.

If we did away with this idea, inflation would be suppressed for sure. Even if we just limited the scale up from level 1 to level 50, inflation would be significantly suppressed. We would still need sinks, though, of course.

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Consultant wrote:
Consultant wrote:

COH is the only MMO I played consistently, so the COH currencies seem "normal" to me. I thought the multiple currencies were ok -- kind of interesting, and some interconvertibility was a positive.
My question is this -- why does a level 50 get more gold for killing a level 50 enemy than a level 1 gets for killing a level 1 enemy? I can't see a reason for it.
It's just the way we played in COH.
If we did away with this idea, inflation would be suppressed for sure. Even if we just limited the scale up from level 1 to level 50, inflation would be significantly suppressed. We would still need sinks, though, of course.

Good question. Most MMO's use that model, along with much of the MUDs that preceded them.

Part of this is probably related to the way other games work- where you get bigger rewards for fighting bigger enemies near the end of the game. Part of it is tied to the fact that higher-level loot also requires more money, so the reward rate needs to be adjusted upward to address it.

You are right, though. If the higher-levels didn't earn disproportionally more inf/gold than the lower levels in the same timeframe, there wiould be significantly less money available to taint the late-user experience and mudflation would grow at a notably low rate. Whether that would be "fun" reward or not would be something to investigate.

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chase wrote:
chase wrote:

Consultant wrote:
COH is the only MMO I played consistently, so the COH currencies seem "normal" to me. I thought the multiple currencies were ok -- kind of interesting, and some interconvertibility was a positive.
My question is this -- why does a level 50 get more gold for killing a level 50 enemy than a level 1 gets for killing a level 1 enemy? I can't see a reason for it.
It's just the way we played in COH.
If we did away with this idea, inflation would be suppressed for sure. Even if we just limited the scale up from level 1 to level 50, inflation would be significantly suppressed. We would still need sinks, though, of course.

Good question. Most MMO's use that model, along with much of the MUDs that preceded them.
Part of this is probably related to the way other games work- where you get bigger rewards for fighting bigger enemies near the end of the game. Part of it is tied to the fact that higher-level loot also requires more money, so the reward rate needs to be adjusted upward to address it.
You are right, though. If the higher-levels didn't earn disproportionally more inf/gold than the lower levels in the same timeframe, there wiould be significantly less money available to taint the late-user experience and mudflation would grow at a notably low rate. Whether that would be "fun" reward or not would be something to investigate.

Eve Online *semi* skirts this, in a roundabout fashion. But that is more because the NPC's that you kill all have a set reward value, and so whilst you can increase the amount you get back for mission rewards, via skills that you can train, the *base* amount is the same for a day 1 character and a 10 year old vet, if they both attempt the same mission.

((And the increase is a 25% pay increase *tops* for payment reward))

But a more experienced character can take on the tougher missions which give a better payout and if you team up with another person, the mission reward gets split between all in the fleet (and a standings increase as well with the corp that it was run for etc etc). And then there are the salvage/loot stuff as well which can be sold on the market as well, which can help the newer player earn cash as well.

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Consultant wrote:
Consultant wrote:

COH is the only MMO I played consistently, so the COH currencies seem "normal" to me. I thought the multiple currencies were ok -- kind of interesting, and some interconvertibility was a positive.
My question is this -- why does a level 50 get more gold for killing a level 50 enemy than a level 1 gets for killing a level 1 enemy? I can't see a reason for it.
It's just the way we played in COH.
If we did away with this idea, inflation would be suppressed for sure. Even if we just limited the scale up from level 1 to level 50, inflation would be significantly suppressed. We would still need sinks, though, of course.

You know, I never really though about it. I just sort of accepted it as a RPG thing. I even commented on how the prestige system worked to equalize SG contributions from the entire level range, I never though of applying it to player cash.

Now, high level players could probably still generate more cash/hour based on fighting larger and/or more difficult spawns, but even then it would help to lower inflation. The one thing you would have to look at is if money sinks are going to scale with level (like buying/improving boosts). A level 50 damage boost may cost more than a level 5, but the difference shouldn't be as great as it would be with scaling rewards.

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Yeah, at higher levels your

Yeah, at higher levels your daily upkeep was correspondingly greater; you'd have to pay hundreds of thousands for enhancements that only cost a few hundred at the low levels.
And since your character was a total putz without enhancements, you were pretty much forced to comply.

Still, maybe if enhancements still cost $100 at 50th level but you could only use them if you were comparable, you could keep low level rewards for defeating enemies. However, if you fought enemies even a couple levels lower than you, you would get absolutely nothing.

And being a digital world, there would still be an unlimited amount of feathers, metal discs, shells, etc., also. you're just coming up with different names for currency.
If it cost you x gold, x feathers, and x silver pearls to make a boondoggle, then that's still a money sink.

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snate56 wrote:
snate56 wrote:

Yeah, at higher levels your daily upkeep was correspondingly greater; you'd have to pay hundreds of thousands for enhancements that only cost a few hundred at the low levels.
And since your character was a total putz without enhancements, you were pretty much forced to comply.
Still, maybe if enhancements still cost $100 at 50th level but you could only use them if you were comparable, you could keep low level rewards for defeating enemies. However, if you fought enemies even a couple levels lower than you, you would get absolutely nothing.
And being a digital world, there would still be an unlimited amount of feathers, metal discs, shells, etc., also. you're just coming up with different names for currency.
If it cost you x gold, x feathers, and x silver pearls to make a boondoggle, then that's still a money sink.

No, no, because importantly, currency is the only thing being traded. If it's feathers and metal discs and every time other item in the entire game, then it can constantly fluctuate and the market is more entertaining and more sustainable. Also, it isn't a sink if it's an inherent element of the game that feathers are needed and so they are wanted. Currency is just traded. The only time it's needed is inevitably in post-launch, artificial sinks to curb inflation because nobody can stop trading in currency when it's ridiculously inflated. You can do that with resources instead of currency.

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See, I never saw the problem

See, I never saw the problem with low level salvage costing rather more inf than a low-level character could earn by fighting NPCs. Why? Because that low level character was also earning salvage from fighting NPCs! So, sure, you couldn't afford to pay buy-it-now prices for a luck charm... until you'd sold one at buy-it-now prices, and then you were good to go. That was what made the market approachable for a new character: that there were common low-level drops that a high level character would still want, and would pay for.

What I don't want to see is stuff like the incarnate threads mess, where a prior currency is rendered all-but-useless.

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Consultant wrote:
Consultant wrote:

My question is this -- why does a level 50 get more gold for killing a level 50 enemy than a level 1 gets for killing a level 1 enemy? I can't see a reason for it.

Well costs go up, and you've got more powers to slot to be effective. Although you could easily argue it wouldn't have to cost more if level 50's weren't making more.

I don't think that's as much "how we played in City of Heroes" as "how we play in most MMO's and video games." Including most single player RPG's from the NES era. D&D too right? I wonder if it has something to do with giving a sense of advancement from the old pen and paper days; making thousands of gold a second instead of a couple gold a day. Or .. whatever.

What I found even stranger than your example, though, is if a level 50 exemplars down to team with a level 1, and a citizen thanks one of you, the level 50 gets a ton more influence than the level one. Several times over in fact. To the point if the level 50 got all of the 'thank you' rewards and gifted the level 1 just half of one 'thank you' reward, the level 50 would probably get more than if the level one got all the citizen rewards for a couple hours.

... That sounded a lot simpler in my head.

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