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Creation Creation Options

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JayBezz
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Creation Creation Options

OK. This turned into a HUGE wall of text of my Character creation Ideas. I'll be formatting this for days. Anyhow I really hoped to just give the broad strokes then let other posters post their ideas (and critiques)
Here goes:
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---TAB ONE: The Form---
Please Choose your Gender
Male /Female/ Other

Please Choose Body Model
Note: Body types include the masculine and feminine sliders (and "giant" types and furries too). Point is this is not restricted by your gender choice.

Choose your Passive Stance:
Heroic, Sexy, Fun, Serious, Beast, Regal, Alert
Note: changeable when out of combat

Choose Primary Role:
Tank, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Buffer, Debuffer, Pets

TAB NOTES: I left alignment out because I think this should be basically chosen through the tutorial. If you want to help the *Insert Faction* then they lead you on that beginning mission path.
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---TAB TWO: The Look---

Costume Creation
Passive Costume, Active Costume (activates in combat)
Note: Both costumes include aura options for passive (on all the time) and/or travel (on during travel power only)

TAB NOTES: We all know it'll be hella robust so I won't post the layers and every separate polygon.. Please include the ability to upload from the mobile character creator app on our account.
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---TAB THREE: The Feel---

Choose Animation Set
Ninja Combat, Street Fighting, Mighty, Head/Temple Touching, Archery, Pole Arms, Pistols, Rifles, Arm Blades, Single Blade, Dual Blade, Single Blunt, Dual Blunt, Whips, Mouth, Optics, Chest, Palms, Fists
Note: all animations work with all powers melee, ranged, cones, PBAoE, RAoE etc

Choose FX:
Shards (ice/crystals etc), Rays (laser beams!), Liquid, Flames, Radio, Bullets, Arrows, Kirby Dots, Sparks, Electric, Particles (clouds/poisons, etc), Stones, Winds, Lightshow, Darkness
Note: you can choose opaque or translucent versions of many of these as well as color. Even a Melee Player can use flames to provide an effect to his punches. You can choose secondary FX types during the leveling or maybe training/gear process.

TAB Note: In my vision of the game the way your character uses any "power" is as unique as the skills themselves. This means that for even flames the devs would design animations for sniper range, long range line of sight, long range AoE, Long Range single target clicks, basts maintains. This may seem at first like "more work" but it also sets the parameters for how much work each new Animation or FX Set will take to release. Most importantly this keeps the game expandable in the FEEL without redundant sets (Two powers that do the same thing like in Champions Online) or styles you can't use (Melee flames is possible and so is a flame sword as much as a flame archer as well as a someone who shoots flames from his mouth or eyes).
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---TAB FOUR: The Power---

Choose Primary Damage Type:
Physical (Piercing or Blunt), Thermal (Heat or Cold), Particle (Electric or Dimensional), Supernatural (Psychic or Magic), Bio (Poison or Vital).
Note: You can choose secondary Damage types during the leveling or maybe training/gear process. Objects that hit with heat damage burn. Objects that are hit with piercing damage bleed. Objects that are hit with Electric damage have electricity. Objects hit with magic damage have runes appear on them. etc. There are always tells to what you're getting hit by. For NPCs it will likely be straight forward but there's concern about other players using "Heat Gas that looked like Poision" well you'll know it burns when it lights you up in smoke.

Choose Primary Skill Tree/Archetype:
Each role will have at least 3 prebuilt archetypes. Your primary role will decide what is available to you. For instance for the debuffer there could be (Perception rebuff Tree, Mag Debuff Tree, and Movement Debuff tree) each focuses on a specific play style.
If you're ranged there's a sniper set, a long range AoE set, A mid range AoE set, A Long range line of sight set, a mid range repel/kite set, etc.. note that they're for play styles and not specific powers. The look tab tells you what it'll look like.

TAB NOTES: This would also be where you can choose the colors of individual skills. It's editable again later as well. In my model I'd rather have the devs give us archetypes with (most of?/all of?) the powers chosen for the player. As long as the Archetypes accurately represent the combat styles we come to expect and allow players to choose what skills their particular character wants to strengthen/enhance. I like having a skill tree of 10 or less powers but being able to swap them out with choices (a bit more restrictive than the CoH model but it keeps players honest on how points are spent (build parity/balance)
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--- TAB FIVE: The Titan---

Choose your Alias:
@Handle system. no locked names so be original and have fun.

Choose your Origin:
Bio-Science, Mutation, Magic, Technology, Natural

First/Last Name (optional)
Starting Morals Sliders (Law, Violence, Honor)
Bio

TAB NOTES:A FULL view of your character sheet. Showing all your choices along with a view of what the titan looks like. Also the First look at the in-game Character Sheet UI. Hopefully here you can see graphically how your character performs with Offense, Defense, and Utility). I don't know if there's stats or not but I hope all the data is shown on GRAPHS more than they are in data and numbers. This way I can click another character and see pretty easily how they're stacked for Offense, Defense and Utility (if they have their information marked as viewable)

PS I am a HUGE fan of the Hexagon Area Graphs like this:
http://howtowatchsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/big-three-wins-610x420.png
..
Wildstar has one that is great for Offense/Defense/Utility. Look at the character creator AMPs section:
http://www.ws-base.com/builds/generator/esper

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Overall notes: In my view the Secondary Archetype would be access to the first 7 powers of a second framework but you will never have access to powers 8-20. So you would be able to be a Sniper RDPS/Alpha Strike MDPS character you CAN but you'll only have the weak powers in the alpha strike MDPS archetype to use. When you hit level X you receive your second framework.

Somewhere around level XX you get to choose a tertiary framework but it entails frameworks like Leadership, Growth, Shinking, Stealth?, and other combat enhancers that majorly affect how combat works for your character. Leadership provides some buffs for your allies.. shrinking increases your ability to dodge and raises perception roll, Growth increases threat and HP.. all those cool secondary combat modifiers that aren't damage, buffs, debuffs.

I really like how in Wildstar you get 8 ranks of varying point value per ability and there are tiers in those where you get an additional buff. It encourages people who like to AMP UP a skill TO THE MAX but also makes players who space their abilities out better to have their own sacrifices. This means the enhancement comes automatically with leveling up instead of separately as they do in Champions Online making builds more predictable.

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PHEW ok wall of text done.. what do you guys think? I'm totally wanting to year your ideas and examples.

Edits and Thank you's:
@SummerHeat for your workflow analysis
@Lothic for expansion on costume shift model

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Lothic
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You've got some interesting

You've got some interesting ideas here and I do agree with a lot of them. I only have two quick concerns/questions for you at the moment:

1) In your Tab Two you mention Passive Costumes and Active Costumes. Are you envisioning complete control over these things (as in having completely separate costume slots for each) or is this going to be more like just being able to set different auras for each? If you're envisioning dedicated costume slots then you're basically suggesting we get double the number of costume slots we had before, which frankly wouldn't bother me at all. ;)

2) How does your "powers definition system" (mainly your Tab Four section) mesh with the fairly strict archetype scheme that's already been proposed by the Devs? It kind of looks like you're proposing a far more open-ended freeform system than I think we're going to end up with. I think we'll have plenty of power "appearance" options. I just don't think we're going to be able to fully construct powers (game mechanics wise) from the ground up by choosing elemental things like "primary roles" or "damage types". I think a lot of that will still be dictated by predefined powersets designed by the Devs.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

JayBezz
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

You've got some interesting ideas here and I do agree with a lot of them. I only have two quick concerns/questions for you at the moment:
1) In your Tab Two you mention Passive Costumes and Active Costumes. Are you envisioning complete control over these things (as in having completely separate costume slots for each) or is this going to be more like just being able to set different auras for each? If you're envisioning dedicated costume slots then you're basically suggesting we get double the number of costume slots we had before, which frankly wouldn't bother me at all. ;)
2) How does your "powers definition system" (mainly your Tab Four section) mesh with the fairly strict archetype scheme that's already been proposed by the Devs? It kind of looks like you're proposing a far more open-ended freeform system than I think we're going to end up with. I think we'll have plenty of power "appearance" options. I just don't think we're going to be able to fully construct powers (game mechanics wise) from the ground up by choosing elemental things like "primary roles" or "damage types". I think a lot of that will still be dictated by predefined powersets designed by the Devs.

Yes.. for 1) I do envision two complete costumes for players who want them. If you want to "Flame on" then you can. Have Colossus Armor? Cool. Just take out your sword/guns also cool.

for 2) I don't think every Primary Set would have Access to every Secondary set. NO Freeforming. I'm trying to follow the chart as they gave us, so Tanks would not have access to Ranged DPS sets (unless they release some later that can i dunno). But the main point I wanted to make is that access to the secondary sets "upper tier" is strictly prohibited and not chosen in the same was as CoH where you made the decision at character creation. Also my character is a pure debuffer role (no buffs or dps planned) so I would like her to be able to choose a primary control set and a secondary control set. This is the reason I described the skillsets the way I did.

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This seems a good place to

This seems a good place to express my hope that different costume slots will allow people to make significant changes to the body type. If I want a character who's 40 kgs wet as a human and a two and a half meter were-creature, or a three meter tall leprechaun, in another form then I should damn well be able to do that.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

This seems a good place to express my hope that different costume slots will allow people to make significant changes to the body type. If I want a character who's 40 kgs wet as a human and a two and a half meter were-creature, or a three meter tall leprechaun, in another form then I should damn well be able to do that.

My SG mate uses Rock Armor in combat and wants to "Grow Stones!". He likely also wants to use the actual growth tertiary set in the example I posted.

If you're a fairy (or insect) you can make a small combat version but it won't be the same as using the "shrink" tertiary set in my example.

Does that make sense?

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Right. It's not a question of

Right. It's not a question of increasing or decreasing the size of the current form by some percentage. As in the case of the Hulk, or even a Captain America before/after scenario, the changes are more significant than what the standard tailor allowed. However, I do see that a booster pack did eventually allow this in CoH. This is essentially my desire.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

This seems a good place to express my hope that different costume slots will allow people to make significant changes to the body type. If I want a character who's 40 kgs wet as a human and a two and a half meter were-creature, or a three meter tall leprechaun, in another form then I should damn well be able to do that.

For what it's worth (as Darth Fez pointed out) CoH allowed you to do this with the Superscience Booster Pack.

For example I had a waifish "gadget girl" type character who had one of her costume slots set up with the "Huge" body model that looked like a giant armored mecha robot. The working idea was that whenever she wanted to fight in a big battle she would jump into the robot suit (by technically switching costumes) and pilot it to victory.

So I figure since CoH allowed for this kind of thing I'd be shocked if CoT didn't.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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In the scenario I presented

In the scenario I presented above you could possibly play a placating controller be a shape shifter if the devs include a "in combat costume" that is just a skin of the enemy you're facing. It's a little more programming to have the polygons render all the time but if changing costumes is going to happen so frequently..

To me this also means the transition from In combat to Out of combat has to be longer timed so the server doesn't have to constantly ask itself which costume you're using. Basically the OOCombat costume would be temporary and the In-Combat costume would be the standard unless you stood still for like 30 seconds. I know they set the limit in Champions on Build/Costume switching at about 12 seconds but their engine doesn't handle as much info as I suspect CoT's will and it wasn't an EXPECTED behavior.

HMMM.. .thinking out loud.. should the second costume be a purchased add-on so not everyone on the server is doing it all the time.. possible yes.

Off Topic: I had a metamorph in CO and switching builds was great because it allowed me to change the Stats/Gear of my character as she changed from Rock to Stone to Metal. This was great but I found that it wasn't the same as "turning on in combat". I wonder if there should be a "build switching tank archetype.. "

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I had a thought along similar

I had a thought along similar lines: a costume that 'turns on' when in combat. Overall I believe it would be easier to keep this a purely manual shift or do it similar to how the worgen are handled in World of Warcraft: they shift to the wolfman shape for combat but require player input to go back to the human form. I never did much costume switching in CoH, particularly not on the fly, but I can't imagine that it would be much different to having a pre-defined key bind for switching between two particular costume slots.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

I had a thought along similar lines: a costume that 'turns on' when in combat. Overall I believe it would be easier to keep this a purely manual shift or do it similar to how the worgen are handled in World of Warcraft: they shift to the wolfman shape for combat but require player input to go back to the human form. I never did much costume switching in CoH, particularly not on the fly, but I can't imagine that it would be much different to having a pre-defined key bind for switching between two particular costume slots.

My experience in Champions left me disappointed in that regard and thats why I put it into the base crator. Whether it be taking out your weapon or morphing (steel skin, Armor, grow wings/hair/nails, etc) most superpowered people in comics can identify a change in the way the character actually looks when about to enter combat and when they are just standing around. Sometimes its just a small change like turning on an Aura.. sometimes it alot of small changes.. sometimes its a HUGE change.

In my head I think it's basic enough to provide at character creation but could see a case made for selling it or acquiring it later.. just if I wanted to be a pistol shooter, I don't want to wait till level X to be able to take my guns out of the holster.

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Anyone else have ideas of what their ideal Step to Step would look like?

I hear so many people in the roles guide saying I want to play a "Insert CoH Build Here" ... do you guys think you could recreate that CoH build experience using what I've posted? If not is there something I'm missing?

Do you prefer frameworks in the sense of CoH, CO and DCUO where "fire is fire" and the skills available are limited and defined for you? If so, why? If not why?

I worked hard to the tab order.. anyone think of anything placed in the wrong tab or have better ideas on how the progression should look like to you?

.. I really just started writing the OP and expected it to be a paragraph and in a 2 hour thought frenzy came up with that.. but I definitely think there's some options I have missed that players want at the inception of their character (not Travel Powers tho.. I think they'll require taste testing so you may get that at level 2, LOL)

Also I'm asking myself how "editable" a character should be. Based on my model there's not alot of "retcon" potential as many of the decisions are weaved with others. If I choose to make a "Jubilee" with "Heat Damage" but then decide I want "Particle Damage" how hard should it be to go back?

What if I want my "Sonic Scream" to be half "Particle Damage" and half blunt damage..? What if I want to do Cold/Piercing damage with Ice Spikes but also Blunt Cold damage with "Ice Wind"? What if I want to do a magic user who uses fire that's NOT supernatural damage but actual Fire Damage? What systems should exist for these and should they be hard to acquire exceptions or should they be just as attainable as the rule?

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Oh one thing I didn't mention is that your character's damage type defenses would be choosable as you level. You'd gain defense points and slot them in the defense type you want. If your character is "immune" to psychic attack you'll likely spend alot of points slotting supernatural damage defense. If you're more well rounded you can place the points in the slots of the 5 damage types of your choice. This also means just because you do electric damage doesn't mean you have to be electric damage proof.
This is necessary because player will choose their damage type. I personally welcome this change because even tho my character uses particle damage she uses technology that is not immune to electricity. She does however wear armor and has a brain that is hard for supernatural powers to affect.. and now the PvPers know exactly how to kill me.. LOL. But the point is they DON'T know how to kill you unless you tell them.. which I just did.

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Lothic
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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

In the scenario I presented above you could possibly play a placating controller be a shape shifter if the devs include a "in combat costume" that is just a skin of the enemy you're facing. It's a little more programming to have the polygons render all the time but if changing costumes is going to happen so frequently..
To me this also means the transition from In combat to Out of combat has to be longer timed so the server doesn't have to constantly ask itself which costume you're using. Basically the OOC costume would be temporary and the In-Combat costume would be the standard unless you stood still for like 30 seconds. I know they set the limit in Champions on Build/Costume switching at about 12 seconds but their engine doesn't handle as much info as I suspect CoT's will and it wasn't an EXPECTED behavior.
HMMM.. .thinking out loud.. should the second costume be a purchased add-on so not everyone on the server is doing it all the time.. possible yes.
Off Topic: I had a metamorph in CO and switching builds was great because it allowed me to change the Stats/Gear of my character as she changed from Rock to Stone to Metal. This was great but I found that it wasn't the same as "turning on in combat". I wonder if there should be a "build switching tank archetype.. "

Just to add some historical data to the costume part of the discussion CoH imposed a 30 second timeout for each full costume change. But interestingly enough it did not impose any timeout for switching between "SG mode" and "non-SG mode" of the same costume. Apparently since the SG mode feature only involved costume item colors it was deemed less demanding on server resources so with some clever costume item coloring you could effectively get a "poorman's costume change" instantaneously with that.

What will this mean for CoT and UE4? Who knows for sure. It's possible the new game will allow for full costume changes that won't require timeouts (or perhaps only very short 5-10 second timeouts). It will still be a requirement for the game to properly transmit all relevant costume data between player clients so even with this new system we might be faced with restrictions that would make the idea of quick "Passive to Active" costumes unfeasible. As JayBezz said there may have to be limits to how it works (like timeout timers or making it a pay-for feature) to reduce its impact to the system.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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While I suspect the release

While I suspect the release-cut power selection will be closer to CoH than Rift/TSW/CO, I do like how your proposal reads here. It answers the potential issues that Ancilliary ATs had to fill when the level cap was bumped (i see value in this type of character progression buildout). That said, such concept is more powers-design and levelup progression and not so much character creation so I'll reserve that critique for another thread.

Tab 1: I'd move origin to tab 5, since it's a small selection flag that I consider more tied to RP backstory than a critically impacting gameplay mechanic. if a player doesn't feel this choice has to be made up front it could allow a larger freeform of character concept instead of needing to back out to the beginning.

Tangent... Make the tabs re-orderable and even allow an account-based preferred order be saved? That could make it easier for players to hop in and start editing a costume or if she prefers start tooling around with power type options and other combos. It's not something easy to do later, but allowing for it up front could go pretty far for small quality of life features.

Tab 2: I'm absolutely fine with more costume slots even if it goes in the form of CO's "buy the extras" route. Also, I would like the option to save costume sets, import them from the phablet apps, or even store them on my local HDD to save/load. CO does this so that should be a no-brainer to me.

I could see tabs 3 and 4 somewhat tied together and reordered, however since one has a more direct dependency on the other based on the known design plan at this time.
Tab 3 becomes the Power tab, selecting my preferred role (defense, melee, ranged, support, cc), then my primary and secondary skill type, and then lastly the damage-effect type. This one tab is all the mechanic impacts of power selection, and none of the visual. It would/should feed into the design ideal that there will be minimal duplicate powers that even CoH had (redacted random tangent about teamwide 2 minute def/res/SB buffs) and give the player the ability to then enter Tab 4 with a list of abilities that are structured into a predefined character development order.

Tab 4 then becomes a style/feel tab. Would the feel tab have an option to start with an animation family (all powers shoot from my hands/rifle/eyes/etc.) and then customize it out further on a per-power basis? My main reason for this is to optimize character creation in the design phase to not require every player go through all 20+ powers to select what animation to use but also allow me to select a unique animation from the set if I want to cast say, an electric snipe power to instead be more like a literal lightning strike than shooting from my hands.

Tab 5: aside from moving the origin selection here this is everything I'd want to see, including the hexagon stat infographic.

“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams

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On the costume-change stuff.

On the costume-change stuff. Late in the game CoH designers came up with the A.C.C.A.H.U.D. and similar combat aruas. Either they had determined that to a very wide degree small changes to turn on or off auras and other effects. Something like Colossus activating a metal skin SHOULD fall under an aura effect and continue onto this, similarly to Bruce Banner's green skin when he hulks out. Aside from Captain Marvel's "My non-combat alter-ego is a 12-year-old and my combat form is this superman-like hero" I wonder how many combat effects could be simply modifiers like changing out one aura for another? It might be fairly easy in a release cut to hide or swap out individual elements without requiring a full costume switch as well like gun-in-holster hip option changes to holster-only hip option when in combat, or bare hands become vine-covered hands when in combat. I'd like to see what could be accomplished with a set of combat auras first.

I'd almost ask to optionally have my active-combat toggle abilities have a diminished effect when I'm not in combat (so I don't have to always look like a fluffy black rain cloud for example) further enhancing the impact of "entering combat" which feeds into making me feel SUPER.

“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams

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Good call on Origin. I think

Good call on Origin. I think that was one of the first things I wrote (before I was hit with a megacrit of "WallOfText") it makes more sense at the finishing stage along with the bio. I don't want players to think it has a major effect on the choices they'll see in the following tabs. Amazing feedback.

As for tabs 3 and 4, I separated them because they are separate servers. The combat server is affected by the damage selection and Role/AT selection while the Aesthetic "feel" of the powers are not. By piecing them out even a novice player will be able to understand there is now (unlike previous games) a staunch difference between the two.
I also put the visual before the database because I feel that players are more excited to SEE their character before they get to the boring stuff like "combat tables" and "stats" and "bios". Basically I wanted the experience to get the player to the "fun stuff" ASAP. Us power gamers love to see the character sheet but if it came first I don't know if most people would make it through the Character Creator before giving in to apathy.

I DO see the merit of choosing role before getting to the Casting Visuals tho. If you're a melee character you don't necessarily want to see the cast animations of what your character looks like using ranged attacks. Perhaps move Role to Tab 1? thoughts?

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In response to your next post -

Yeah but Stone armor that looks the same on everyone is blah. (not to mention there's no powerset specifically for it anymore). I don't want to be forced to have stone on over my clothes or vice versa. If I turn to water skin doesn't mean I want the whole character model turning to water. Just look at Emma Frost in Marvel Heroes.. why does the whole model turn to diamond including the skin? Ugh it's so ugly! LOL.

This is a simple solution that solves so many different "problems". It's not for EVERYONE.. but it also COULD be for everyone.. if it were offered I can't think of a single hero I would use that doesn't change in some way in combat even if the second costume is just to turn on an aura (flaming fists aura would turn my crappy martial artist int KEN MASTERS!). I saw a post somewhere about "pulling the mallet out of nowhere".. well now you don't have to.

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Additional thought to add to Costume tab.. choosing "bleed" could be red like blood or black like oil or yellow like pus.. but with piercing damage being based on the object being hit and not tied to the animation of the caster it's a great opportunity to allow players to color customize. Maybe when being burned the player can choose to "melt, burn or smoke".. As long as the behavior is predicable and universal I don't have a problem with a little more customization. (If you prick the robot, does she not bleed?!)

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I totally agree to that,

I totally agree to that, which is partly why I came up with the suggestion to customize the creation-tab sequence order on an account-wide basis. That way if I want to get right into character looks I can move all of that up front, but if I'm a min-maxer my playground is in the combat details. It also allows the power gamer that likes to go right to the character sheet up front, and hop to the character sheet after each selection before returning to make tweaks.

I agree and disagree that Tabs 3 and 4 are separate servers. The options for which animation families I can choose is directly impacted by my combat role choice, even though that's the only one that impacts both. Combat animations need to be normalized to fit inside a certain amount of time to change fluidly in the types like 1 second throw or .5 second jab or a 1.5 second single-target-heal. So, by animation families I mean "ranged attack animation groups" and "melee animation groups." Perhaps the role option must be selected before either tab are entered (in the idea that tab order can be rearranged). With a requisite of role for either and the tabs swappable, then it futher defines to a novice that the two are not tied together. I may be a bit scattered in that explanation...

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JayBezz
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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I DO see the merit of choosing role before getting to the Casting Visuals tho. If you're a melee character you don't necessarily want to see the cast animations of what your character looks like using ranged attacks. Perhaps move Role to Tab 1? thoughts?

summer-heat wrote:

Perhaps the role option must be selected before either tab are entered (in the idea that tab order can be rearranged).

Great minds Am I Right?! Gonna make your suggested changes to the OP

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Something tells me that Tab

Something tells me that Tab Three and Tab Four need to be turned around. It's not really easy to choose the feel of your powers until you actually select what your powers are...

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