The conundrum of Super-PvP

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Empyrean
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The conundrum of Super-PvP

First, let me say I only dabble in PvP because it's there, so I am SINCERELY asking these questions of those of you who are more experienced PvPers to hopefully spur good, useful conversation for the consideration of the devs. I'd like to like PvP more, and I'd like to see MWM-CoT knock PvP out of the park because that will help the overall success of the game and give us more to do--and maybe get me in there mixing it up with y'all :).

So, taking Superhero games into account, from what I hear people seem to feel like DCUO does the best job of all three full-fledged Superhero MMORPG's (though if there's anything we can learn from Marvel Heroes, which I haven't played and know nothing about, then awesome.)

I've noticed that DCUO has different GEAR and even BASE STATS (Toughness vs Devense) for PvE and PvP, and I wonder if that's the key to having both PvE and PvP work in a game--keeping them separate enough that they can be separately balanced when and how needed.

Of course, the problem with that is that you go into PvP on your favorite Hero or Villain that you know like the back of your hand and he/she now plays all not-quite-right and wonky, which is a bit of a turn-off. But fighting mobs of PvE AI minions is different from fighing another hero or Villain played by a live human being, so maybe that's unavoidable if you want BOTH to be good.

Again, I'm asking those of you who are more experienced and knowledgeable and talking about the very base mechanics of PvP and how it relates to PvE here, not what kind of PvP games and match-types, but how the basic PvP should work so that it doesn't end up becoming about as useful to the game as the appendix or a hole in the head.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Psycho Jas
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Don't have PvE and PvP work

Don't have PvE and PvP work as two different bodies within a game. I will guarantee that it would be a big factor in preventing new players from wanting to participate in a PvP system thats making their character act differently to how it does in PvE.

We saw how CoX attempted to separate the two, in an entire issue that was directed in generating new player interest in to PvPing and we also saw how that failed.

In my opinion if this game by launch is still hoping to work in the spirit of CoH, then it would be in the developers best interest to let former CoH PvPers advise and guide them, and listen to us when we say something isn't working right, or wont be a good idea during testing periods. So often thats what CoH did wrong with their attempts at handling PvP.

Don't just interlink issues aimed at PvE with PvP. CoH PvP in its prime was just so easy to get into. Especially when considering the popularity of a low level zone like Sirens Call at the time, you really only needed to level a character to whatever the minimum level requirement was buy some enhancements and call it a day. (most more competitive PvPers would also accolade each toon) Take that to how it was in its final stages was just ridiculous. If your main interest was PvP and only played the game for PvP like many many people I knew you had to do all of this for your character of choice to even be viable in RV you had to; Level from 1-50(PvE) spend anywhere between 10-50+billion inf on IO's(PvE) Fully Accolade (PvE) and of course the introduction of incarnates, t3 of Alpha and Interface would be the minimum, many would T3 at least, alpha, interface and destiny. Again PvE.

A solution to this of course would have been to allow a form of micro transaction, a one time buy for all the accolades, enabling any character who goes into a PvP zone would be fully accoladed without having to go through the PvE process every single bloody time to get it. Disabling huge game changes that will have a massive impact on PvP such as incarnates until it is tested by a trusted PvP community to say wether or not it's ideal to include it in PvP.

Whichever path CoT takes in terms of gear I hope they follow in the footsteps of a game like TF2. Very very very rarely are drop items better than the stock weapons that any f2p, brand new player has at their disposal. The use of different weapons is situational/down to preference. Another road they take is little additions to weapons, such a kill/killstreak counter, cosmetics and so on.

On one of the other PvP related posts in this forum Silit links a post that really details what went wrong with CoH, and the problem PvP had in terms of its forced relationship with PvE. It's worth a read.

Empyrean
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Psycho Jas wrote:
Psycho Jas wrote:

Don't have PvE and PvP work as two different bodies within a game. I will guarantee that it would be a big factor in preventing new players from wanting to participate in a PvP system thats making their character act differently to how it does in PvE.
We saw how CoX attempted to separate the two, in an entire issue that was directed in generating new player interest in to PvPing and we also saw how that failed.
In my opinion if this game by launch is still hoping to work in the spirit of CoH, then it would be in the developers best interest to let former CoH PvPers advise and guide them, and listen to us when we say something isn't working right, or wont be a good idea during testing periods. So often thats what CoH did wrong with their attempts at handling PvP.
Don't just interlink issues aimed at PvE with PvP. CoH PvP in its prime was just so easy to get into. Especially when considering the popularity of a low level zone like Sirens Call at the time, you really only needed to level a character to whatever the minimum level requirement was buy some enhancements and call it a day. (most more competitive PvPers would also accolade each toon) Take that to how it was in its final stages was just ridiculous. If your main interest was PvP and only played the game for PvP like many many people I knew you had to do all of this for your character of choice to even be viable in RV you had to; Level from 1-50(PvE) spend anywhere between 10-50+billion inf on IO's(PvE) Fully Accolade (PvE) and of course the introduction of incarnates, t3 of Alpha and Interface would be the minimum, many would T3 at least, alpha, interface and destiny. Again PvE.
A solution to this of course would have been to allow a form of micro transaction, a one time buy for all the accolades, enabling any character who goes into a PvP zone would be fully accoladed without having to go through the PvE process every single bloody time to get it. Disabling huge game changes that will have a massive impact on PvP such as incarnates until it is tested by a trusted PvP community to say wether or not it's ideal to include it in PvP.
Whichever path CoT takes in terms of gear I hope they follow in the footsteps of a game like TF2. Very very very rarely are drop items better than the stock weapons that any f2p, brand new player has at their disposal. The use of different weapons is situational/down to preference. Another road they take is little additions to weapons, such a kill/killstreak counter, cosmetics and so on.
On one of the other PvP related posts in this forum Silit links a post that really details what went wrong with CoH, and the problem PvP had in terms of its forced relationship with PvE. It's worth a read.

Thanks for your suggestions and ideas about what could work for CoT PvP. I did read Silit, and I agreed with most of what he said too. I personally like the idea of not separating the two also, but I'm not that experienced with PvP, so...

Silit clearly outlined what CoT shouldn't do, which is helpful, but even after you rule out all of the mistakes that CoH made, there are still a tremendous amount of possibilities left as to what exactly they could and should do, and other mistakes that could be made.

So, what should be the fundamental approach to make CoT a PvE game with GOOD PvP rather than, like CoH, a PvE game with borked PvP. Or is that even possible? Developers seem to really struggle with it in general.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Radiac
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*Disclaimer, I'm not a PVPer*

*Disclaimer, I'm not a PVPer*

Good PVP in an MMO like this one is basically just FPS. The more RPG elements you try to introduce like classes, levels, gear, accolades, etc the more unfair and imbalanced the PVP becomes, and it becomes that AFTER adding the problem of making PVPers have to grind out a lot of PVE content (which we can assume they don't want to have to do) in order to get those unfair imbalancing perks that they can get in PVE.

PVE gaming is all about crafting a character and having fun exploring the missions and maps and solving little puzzles, and so forth. In PVP it's all about winning and losing. For example, the most annoying and frustrating part of DnD, for the competitive people I know, is the fact that it is not a game where the players compete against each other. There's no winning, or if there is its unsatisfying in that you don't get to publicly stomp your opponent into the dirt and gloat about it to his face during/afterward.

I think PVP should be a mode where you flip a switch on your toon and he then get's to use his "PVP build" which contains all of the gear that he wants for PVP, without having to do any PVE for it, you just GET the gear you want, free. The obvious caveat being that all PVP gear is available free to all PVPers and cannot be traded or used in PVE at all. PVEers get treasure, PVPers just get a toolkit that allows them to build their toon any way they want.

As I've said in other posts, I think PVPers SAY they want fairness and balance, but what they ACTUALLY want is a rules set that THEY will be one to find the tragic flaw in first, thus allowing THEM to exploit that and dominate FOREVER, thus making them THE WINNER. Because you know these people will optimize everything out to the Nth degree until they manage to find some kind of loophole. The PVP metagame is basically just that, try to find the uber build that has the broken combo in it, etc.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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*Obligatory declaration

*Obligatory declaration poster does not consider himself a PvPer.:)

One of the funnest PvP memories I have from CoH was between I6 and I7 on Victory server. I have no idea if it was organized or spontaneous but basically the call went up in all the zones that there was a BIG fight in Bloody Bay. It was massive with what seemed like about 40 folks in there pounding away. It was a blast even for novices because no egos were bruised when they lost against massive numbers of enemies. It felt FUN and chaotic and lasted all of about a half hour each time.

Ah good times. And while I have little opinion about how the mechanics "should" work, at those time the initial CoH mechanics seemed to work pretty well.

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:

*Obligatory declaration poster does not consider himself a PvPer.:)
One of the funnest PvP memories I have from CoH was between I6 and I7 on Victory server. I have no idea if it was organized or spontaneous but basically the call went up in all the zones that there was a BIG fight in Bloody Bay. It was massive with what seemed like about 40 folks in there pounding away. It was a blast even for novices because no egos were bruised when they lost against massive numbers of enemies. It felt FUN and chaotic and lasted all of about a half hour each time.
Ah good times. And while I have little opinion about how the mechanics "should" work, at those time the initial CoH mechanics seemed to work pretty well.

If I remember right, I think those early pvp mechanics appealed to the non-pvpers really well and got us involved a bit. It was the pvpers who didn't like it.

I did a bit of pvp back then and liked it, but I stopped at whatever issue made it all strange. I guess that was after they tried to fix it for the pvpers.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look into the abyss, the abyss also look into you, -Friedrich

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Good PVP in an MMO like this one is basically just FPS. The more RPG elements you try to introduce like classes, levels, gear, accolades, etc the more unfair and imbalanced the PVP becomes, and it becomes that AFTER adding the problem of making PVPers have to grind out a lot of PVE content (which we can assume they don't want to have to do) in order to get those unfair imbalancing perks that they can get in PVE.

I'll mostly repeat myself, here, so please bear with me.

In essence, I agree. Real PvP is about a player bringing his best game to the fight. Injecting PvE into the experience by creating a need to 'gear up' in order to be competitive in PvP (by obtaining the best boosts, accolades, or whatever else) takes away from the true PvP experience.* For me, there is a world of difference between knowing that I am doing poorly at PvP because I haven't invested in learning good PvP skills (or I'm just bad at it) and knowing that I am losing because the other people have superior gear. Bottom line, all such decisions should be made with the intention of keeping the barrier to entry as low as possible.

This applies to instanced PvP, where strict rules can be applied (or even artificial rules, such as no travel powers).

I expect that those who want to be able to squeeze out every last advantage will be able to do so in open world PvP. I believe that most people understand that anything goes in open world PvP, so why not allow them to bring every last temp power, accolade, etc. that they can scrounge up?

Psycho Jas wrote:

A solution to this of course would have been to allow a form of micro transaction, a one time buy for all the accolades, enabling any character who goes into a PvP zone would be fully accoladed without having to go through the PvE process every single bloody time to get it.

I see the attraction in this kind of solution, particularly if it applies to the account, but this is the truest form of pay to win.



* Here even large words like 'real' and 'true' are, of course, subjective.

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My PvP experiences derives

My PvP experiences derives from playing several different MMOs. It is understood that this is a spiritual-successor of City of Heroes, but that does not mean we shouldn’t learn from other MMOs.

Balance
It’s not possible to completely balance everything for both PvE and PvP, hence why the systems are sometimes separated. Abilities should still function the same way however values may differ between the two areas. This is so you will not have to “relearn” your character and so some abilities do not make PvP combat absolutely hopeless. A mesmerize spell should still mesmerize, differences may be found in the durations of the two. A monster will not complain about being two-shot-killed by a single player, an enemy player absolutely will complain though.

If there is an attempt to balance everything for both PvE and PvP, then I believe the most appropriate approach would be to offer counter tools for everything. The best counter (As in, there should be multiple ways to counter, some more effective than others) may not always reside within your own character – it could be available through the aid of another player.

If a player wanted to alter the duration of a mesmerize effect, then he should be able to do at least one or a combination of the following: Alter resistance within Equipment or Build, use an Ability, use a Buff, use an Item, use a Debuff, Interrupt the enemy, break line-of-sight, or perhaps some other unmentioned method. None of the above alone should be the sole decider of effectiveness. Skill comes into play once players understand the various counter tools available and how to utilize them together.

In the event where something is deemed “too powerful” and there are no counter measures available – that is where a nerf might be appropriate. Before taking the nerf route, consider whether you could alter (or implement) something else to serve as a counter measure, also consider who else may be inadvertently affected by a change – such as its use in a PvE scenario. In the event where something is still deemed too powerful despite the use of counter measures – then it may also be appropriate for a nerf. Such as the combination of Buffs (on yourself), Debuffs (on the enemy), and decent Resistances (on yourself) still hopelessly leaves you two-shot-killed by another single other player. If the only counter options available are not up to par with the rest of the game, consider boosting those first.

Players are generally more pleased to hear about a “boost”, a “nerf” generally has a negative connotation. It becomes weaker than it previously was.

“Perfect Balance” is not possible at all, unless we’re playing in a game of mirrors. Like the board-game of checkers. Balance in indifference is possible. In other words, slight imbalances level out other slight imbalances. For example, one class may be easier to consistently play well whereas another class can perform slightly better at the cost of being slightly more difficult to play.

Standards of Entry
If there necessities are required to compete then allow the option to obtain those necessities through that content at a reasonable price. The moment you are required to endure content from one aspect of the game in order to be somewhat competitive in another starts a problem. Such as the cases of where Experience, Equipment, and special Endgame content (that influences gameplay) can only be obtained through PvE becomes required to PvP. These things raise the bar so high it calls for an immense time-investment the average player just cannot afford to undergo.

To avoid setting standards too high, I suggest breaking content into three categories: PvE-only, PvP-only, and PvE&PvP. It’s unfavorable to split them, but it keeps time-requirement investment low. There is a slight upside; it creates more “goals” for players to fulfill, without needing to fulfill them all at once in order to compete.

My idea is to keep the general gameplay the same in both PvP and PvE aspects. Some rewards that are exclusively obtained and used under one category should not have influence on the other. They should also only be slightly beneficial – in other words, not a complete deciding factor of success or failure.

PvE&PvP Basics, Necessities
This is where the main features of your character should be kept the same under both systems. You shouldn’t need to completely “relearn”, “regear” or “respec” your character to jump between the two areas. Levels, Equipment are necessities for both systems, so offer those rewards under both systems that can also transition into each area.

Under this category, if you so desire, you can: PvE to PvP … or ... PvE to PvE … or … PvP to PvE … or … PvP to PvP.

Minimum requirements should be easy to obtain under both systems at a fair price. If one system becomes significantly easier, than it becomes unfair to the other. So, if it takes about one afternoon to scrap together a simple minimum requirement suit in PvE, then make it take about an afternoon to acquire the same suit in PvP. Keep the bonuses the same to allow easier transition when switching between the two systems.

PvE-only
This especially applies toward Endgame content expansions. Should there ever be an event (Like Incarnates from City of Heroes) where completely new abilities are introduced, require a significant time-investment, and can only obtained in PvE content, than only make it useable in PvE content.

Should these abilities be useable in PvP, then bump it to the “PvE&PvP” category; you should be able to acquire those abilities through PvP content as well. There should also be a time-investment compensation for “raising the bar of standard” in both aspects of the game.

PvP-only
This applies mostly toward PvP rewards. Nobody ever wants to be rejected from a PvE raid “Because you are not PvP-Rank X with these abilities.” So disable PvP rewards that influence gameplay in PvE zones. The moment gameplay-influencing rewards are allowed to exist in both areas, then you should be able to obtain them in both areas. There are players that do not wish to participate in PvP, so do not force it upon them.

Should these abilities be useable in PvE, then bump it to the “PvE&PvP” category; you should be able to acquire those abilities through PvE content as well. There should also be a time-investment compensation for “raising the bar of standard” in both aspects of the game.

Accommodating New Players
As more new content is implemented, the standards begin to rise up, thus taking longer to catch up with the masses. Veteran players endured the content one piece at a time; newer players must acquire it all and learn it all at one time. As newer content is implemented, please consider accommodating new players (this also applies to new alts) by making it a tad faster to get through older content.

Psycho Jas made a fair suggestion for this, (as long as they already endured the content at least once)

Quote:

A solution to this of course would have been to allow a form of micro transaction, a one time buy for all the accolades, enabling any character who goes into a PvP zone would be fully accoladed without having to go through the PvE process every single bloody time to get it. Disabling huge game changes that will have a massive impact on PvP such as incarnates until it is tested by a trusted PvP community to say wether or not it's ideal to include it in PvP.

Learning PvP through PvE
One of the most difficult transitions players undergo after PvE, is having to learn how to PvP. Fighting land-bound Hellion Thugs are certainly not going to prepare you for Player vs Player combat.

What if as you progressed through the PvE content, monsters became a little less predictable? What if some common PvP tactics were slowly infused into monster AI? So far, City of Titans seems to be going in the right direction on this. Making these slight adjustments could not only make PvE a little more fun and challenging, but they can also subliminally teach players some tactics to better prepare them for Player vs Player combat.

A few characteristics of PvP:

Kiting
“Keep some distance between you and your opponent(s).” (Commonly mistaken with simply, running away from the fight.) As a Caster fighting a Melee class, you should never allow your opponent to get close enough to perform his combat abilities. So you attempt to maintain some range that is close enough so you can still perform a spell while also being far enough so your opponent cannot hit you in melee range.

Pushing
(The opposite perspective of kiting) “To keep your opponent(s) as close to you as possible to perform melee functions and/or interrupt the opponent. Monsters usually have this mastered by default.

Assisting
Multiple players attempt to focus and kill one target. Usually monsters randomly pick targets, or Taunt completely eliminates this threat in PvE. Allow some monsters to “focus” a target, immune to taunt effects, thus encouraging players to resort to other counter tactics.

Using Terrain to Advantage
Players will certainly stand on elevated platforms to rain on those below, such as a Caster being positioned on the second floor with a view of the base floor to cast upon.

Crowd-Control Use
An attempt to string out the most value of Crowd-Control as possible. Such as using Sleep on a Tank, ignoring that sleeping tank, and pursuing another team-member. Usually when monsters have such abilities, they break them immediately, completely eliminating its effect.

If a monster attempts to flee and has access to Crowd-Control abilities, they should use them as they attempt to run away. Not hopelessly run and do nothing when they could do something about the player striking their backside.

Team-Emphasis
More focus on helping others. Monsters should be granted some defensive abilities, such as giving buff, heals, and resurrection to aid other monsters. This should help players recognize that some monsters should be given priority to kill or Crowd-Control over others.

Ambush
You can’t be prepared for all battles. Make some monsters roam throughout missions, or give some stealth abilities. Perhaps even have zerg swarms.

Travel-Powers
Your enemies will certainly have them, give some monsters these capabilities.

On your feet!
Standing still for an entire battle will rarely ever occur in Player vs Player. With a combination of the above tactics, players should adapt to moving non-stop during battle. This could also be enforced by the environment, such as a room filling with lava as you fight.

Ultimately, I would hope more complex monster AI would help better prepare players for Player vs. Player combat. The typical MMO rarely provides you with challenging PvE simulations that can help teach PvP fundamentals.

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The previous post is

The previous post is marvellous.

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1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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To reduce the traditional

To reduce the traditional grind and limited flexibility associated with gearing up multiple builds (PvP and PvE, solo and team, and even different playstyles within those categories), two major steps forward have been taken by a small number of games. For CoT, I suggest doing both:

1. The Free Testing Build - Provide a way to obtain all "enhancements/gear" for free for testing purposes and even for limited, instanced gameplay (specifically, certain PvP scenarios where this is flagged as acceptable by the participants or designed as a feature to encourage new PvPers and experimental playstyles).

2. Shared Inventory for Builds - Start with CoH's build system but improve it with aspects of the STO Loadout system, which allows enhancements/gear to be shared across all builds on that character. If build#1 requires 4 identical XYZ enhancements and build#2 requires 3, you don't need to possess 7...you only need 4, the maximum in use at a time. There are options for how to best implement this sharing programatically, such as giving the player a painless way to store all enhancements which they want to reserve for current and future builds along with an interface for slotting and saving builds, or STO's (less intuitive?) method of storing enhancements in many places (the individual builds/loadouts, inventory, character bank, account bank) and having the system retrieve or dump items from everywhere, sometimes imperfectly, when a previously saved build is activated. Reasonable cooldowns or limitations on build switching can be applied, of course.

wyruzk
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answer to pvp is to make

answer to pvp is to make everyone equal, with automatic max enhancements, whatever... for the duration of the pvp
pve-pvp is another story, if that were allowed, like wow cross-faction pvp in worldmap, basically pvp-e
so, variety of pvp options
1. no gear, just costume
2. pve gear, random pvp encounters
3. pvp max, automatic max gear, pick from various presets, custom preset selection of gear, addons, wahtever
4. pvp p2w, players with the 'best' gear/stuff win, usually
5. pvp random, each player gets random stuff/gear

and whatever else... more options = better game

\`|'/

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PVPers, the ones I know, tend

PVPers, the ones I know, tend to be motivated by the desire to be the winner, be the best, prove it, rub your nose in it, and wave it around in everyone else's face that they won and they are "teh uber". For this reason, I think, PVPers didn't like Siren's Call/Warburg/Recluse's Victory style PVPVE zones, because there was no real end. It was like a big party that people came and went from at will. What PVPers wanted was a contest with a clearly defined end when the winner(s) would be recognized for winning and the losers would feel the agony of defeat.

If CoT really wants to give PVPers what they want, it needs to have PVP in which there are winners and losers and perhaps even prizes or some kind for the winners. Whether it be some form of influence, or free costume unlocks, or free cash shop credit for winning, or something. What PVPers want is to prove they're the best and the recognition and rewards for doing so. To win publicly and to acquire the spoils of victory so that they may wear such on their chest as a badge of honor, and as a way to impress others and intimidate future opponents.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Maybe what we need is a form

Maybe what we need is a form of Trial or Task Force that pits two teams against each other. You jump in the queue or talk to the contact, and when it begins, you go to a map and and have to fight the environment and the other team until one team achieves victory, in whatever way they have to (click glowwies, get the most frags in a set time period, capture the flag, be king of the hill at the end, etc). I'm sure the CoX Arena was something like this, but what I'm talking about is not some generic "go tot he arena and schedule a match , pick a map, etc" thing but rather a specific content thing, like a Lambda Sector or a Keyes Island where two teams enter, interact with the PVE content and with each other, and only one team wins at the end.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Another thought that occurred

Another thought that occurred to me: officially sanctioned tournaments in PVP.

Magic Online does this, you go to the cash shop and buy one or more "Event Tickets" (which are traded by the players as a surrogate currency, like prisoners use cigarettes) and you can use them to join magic online tournaments. The entry fee pays for the prizes that the winners get (and some probably goes to the game devs I guess).

So in a CoX-like game it might be something like a deal where you can buy tickets in the cash shop and then spend them to join a PVP event which has prize(s) for the winner(s). Prizes could be stuff like a free month of VIP, or cash shop credit, costume unlocks, etc.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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I don't want to come off as

I don't want to come off as rude, but for the love of god, whatever you do, don't separate PvE and PvP too much from each other (especially with gear). Some people say to keep it separate because the two play differently. But when I want to play differently, I usually just roll a new character. Here's what I'm trying to get at; doesn't it infuriate you when you try to PvP with your PvE character, and you get dominated not because of a lack of skill, but a lack of gear?

Although I think DCUO is fun and all, something I didn't prefer about it was the dedicated PvE/PvP gear sets. PvE had Defense (great against mobs) while PvP had Toughness (great against players). But the thing is, I wasn't a dedicated PvP player. I'd just PvP in random bursts, then continue my questing. When I got to the level cap, I had to face all these people with full PvP sets, and it was a major turn-off.

What I'm suggesting is that you use the same stats for PvP and PvE. But, wouldn't that mean PvP players would have to PvE to stay competitive? Now here's my idea; you know how a lot of MMOs have some form of PvP currency? Maybe you could implement that, and the gear you could buy would just be the basic kinds of stuff you can find in the PvE world (you should make the cosmetics you unlock from them different from the PvE gear. That way they could feel different from a PvE player. Hey, maybe that could even tie-in with the path system!) But then wouldn't the people who have acquired raid gear and such be way more powerful than them? You could have two different things maybe; save up enough PvP currency for either high grade gear, or lockboxes maybe (which could drop random pieces of gear for the potential of the best gear. This could simulate random boss drops).

Anyways, don't ever make the player feel penalized because they spent too much time in PvP on one character, and vice versa. I don't want to have two characters for PvE and PvP, or two sets of gear specifically for PvE/PvP. Let them feel safe switching from one to the other. I want one character. One character that I can take with me wherever I go in the game. Whether it's a bad neighborhood, an alien planet, or an arena where superpowered beings dish it out, I want my character to be able to stay true to him/herself.

Thank you for reading!

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PoisonIvan wrote:
PoisonIvan wrote:

I don't want to come off as rude, but for the love of god, whatever you do, don't separate PvE and PvP too much from each other (especially with gear). Some people say to keep it separate because the two play differently. But when I want to play differently, I usually just roll a new character. Here's what I'm trying to get at; doesn't it infuriate you when you try to PvP with your PvE character, and you get dominated not because of a lack of skill, but a lack of gear?
Although I think DCUO is fun and all, something I didn't prefer about it was the dedicated PvE/PvP gear sets. PvE had Defense (great against mobs) while PvP had Toughness (great against players). But the thing is, I wasn't a dedicated PvP player. I'd just PvP in random bursts, then continue my questing. When I got to the level cap, I had to face all these people with full PvP sets, and it was a major turn-off.
What I'm suggesting is that you use the same stats for PvP and PvE. But, wouldn't that mean PvP players would have to PvE to stay competitive? Now here's my idea; you know how a lot of MMOs have some form of PvP currency? Maybe you could implement that, and the gear you could buy would just be the basic kinds of stuff you can find in the PvE world (you should make the cosmetics you unlock from them different from the PvE gear. That way they could feel different from a PvE player. Hey, maybe that could even tie-in with the path system!) But then wouldn't the people who have acquired raid gear and such be way more powerful than them? You could have two different things maybe; save up enough PvP currency for either high grade gear, or lockboxes maybe (which could drop random pieces of gear for the potential of the best gear. This could simulate random boss drops).
Anyways, don't ever make the player feel penalized because they spent too much time in PvP on one character, and vice versa. I don't want to have two characters for PvE and PvP, or two sets of gear specifically for PvE/PvP. Let them feel safe switching from one to the other. I want one character. One character that I can take with me wherever I go in the game. Whether it's a bad neighborhood, an alien planet, or an arena where superpowered beings dish it out, I want my character to be able to stay true to him/herself.
Thank you for reading!

Since PvP was a small part of CoH and we presumably WANT to encourage wider PvP participation by getting the general PvE population involved as much as possible, wouldn't it make sense to, as Poison said, leave the mechanics the same in PvE and PvP so that the larger population of PvEers will have the build and skill they have developed in PvE to use in PvP?

I think it would be nearly impossible to make a great PvE game where you can also PvP from level 1-max and beyond by only doing PvP, but making a game where you have to PvE to PvP well is a turn off to the minority of hard-core PvPers, yet it should help get the PvEers more involved in PvP. I know I PvP'd more back when it was that way in CoH. I stopped when they differentiated PvP and PvE too much.

Now I can see how this could upset the hard-core PvP people, but, realistically, will CoT EVER appeal to the hard-core PvPers if we build it as a spiritual successor to CoH? If not, what's the point in alienating the general population of PvEers from PvP to satisfy the small group of PvPers?

And I'm not trying to be a weenie :P, I'm really asking. Which is the right way to go?

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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The reason I'm for a limited

The reason I'm for a limited segregation between PvE and PvP mechanics is to allow MWM to tweak the one without impacting the other. If there is an easier or better way to achieve this, I'm all for it. In addition, there are some PvE mechanics that do not work well in PvP (CC being a contentious example).

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Some things (again, with the

Some things (again, with the disclaimer that I personally have no real interest in PVP):

1. If you're going to have PVP, you want good, fun PVP for everyone, not crappy frustrating PVP. Whatever the PVP experience is, it needs to be fun and to be an attractive option to new players and long time vets alike. I don't think it will work if it ends up being a thing that only the 5year+ veterans can hope to compete in due to gear needs, accolades, etc.

2. PVP that is not attractive and fun and exciting for people who self-identify as PVPers will not work. You have to satisfy your core constituents first, or else it will fail. Making PVP with a focus on the non-PVPer in mind is like saying "We need to make a steak dinner that's attractive to vegetarians, that way more non-meat eaters will like or mostly-meat product and we'll expand our diner base." It doesn't work. Making a PVP rules system that is supposed to primarily appeal to guys like me (who don't generally look for or want to do PVP) seems like a recipe for disaster. The PVP system should appeal to the PVPers, at the very least. Anyone else you get is gravy.

3. PVE play and PVP play are fundamentally different animals to have to optimize powers and comboes for, no matter how you slice it. When you're doing a PVE mission, you don't like it when you can't seem to hit anything but you don't mind when they can't hit you. In PVP, one person's "NoGetHitsu" is always going to be someone else's "WTF?!?!? This game sucks *RAGE QUIT* ". The game will simply play differently in one regime than it does in the other, no matter what. Therefore, your "I want one character" request is, by the very nature of PVP and PVE gaming, not possible in my opinion. No matter what they do with the PVP, no matter what type of toon you make, you will end up needing different gear for optimal PVP play versus optimal PVE play. The fact that the two play modes are fundamentally different basically guarantees that. If you don't mind losing in almost every quasi-competitive PVP experience you ever have you might be able to leave your gear and power selections alone and just use the PVE mode stuff. I don't think people will do that, in general, because nobody likes to lose in PVP, and if they don't care about winning and losimg then they;re not really engaged in the PVP experience anyway, they're just going through the motions.

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I would use SPvP from GW2 as

I would use SPvP from GW2 as a good example. Set everyone to equal and then let them choose their specialization from there. This gives enough customization to be fun, but if you realize your build sucks you can change it for free. Enhancements can be picked up to modify the standard PvP gear that everyone starts with and winning in SPvP could grant you more options to better enhancements or gear based on a token reward system. That's how I personally like to PvP. It's more fun for the casual player but is still be fun for the hardcore PvP'er.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Structured_PvP

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Ravonos beat me to it. It is

Ravonos beat me to it. It is certainly a good place to look for ideas.

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If the opening PvP message

If the opening PvP message counts as a game mechanic, then I have a suggestion. I would include in it something like "Remember, in PvP a 'fair fight' means you die half of the time."

My hope here is to pre-empt some of the negative impact of dying in PvP and thus make it friendlier for new folks. Once folks realize that death is a natural byproduct of PvP it make it much easier to explore and enjoy.

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Speaking solely for the

Speaking solely for the interests of the entirely-PvE crowd, one reason I would vote for some separation of PvP and PvE comes from the fact, as some have pointed out above, that balance is far more important in PvP than in PvE. (Essentially, mobs don't complain if your powers pwn them.) The problem I have seen in other games where PvP is integrated from the start is that all power sets start to feel kinda samey because they are so balanced. I don't want the devs to be hamstrung by a strict parity requirement whenever they have an idea for a new power set.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:

If the opening PvP message counts as a game mechanic, then I have a suggestion. I would include in it something like "Remember, in PvP a 'fair fight' means you die half of the time."
My hope here is to pre-empt some of the negative impact of dying in PvP and thus make it friendlier for new folks. Once folks realize that death is a natural byproduct of PvP it make it much easier to explore and enjoy.

Lol no, your opponent can still be a better than you resulting in no deaths but the fight will still be played under fair rules. And in CoX's case of how PvP worked especially in arena dying was a huge negative impact as the winner of a match would be the one who killed the other the most.

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If it comes to a choice

If it comes to a choice between having PvE and PvP work the same and having them both work WELL and be fun, we will probably go with "works well and is fun". ;)

Hopefully we won't have to make that choice.

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kitsune9tails wrote:
kitsune9tails wrote:

If it comes to a choice between having PvE and PvP work the same and having them both work WELL and be fun, we will probably go with "works well and is fun". ;)
Hopefully we won't have to make that choice.

'Hi! I am Kitsune9tails and I am Assistant Director of Composition. That means I am deeply involved in developing the writing and Lore for our game. I also help wrangle the localization and editing'

In the CoT behind the scenes does that equate to also having a say on the mechanics and relationship between PvE and PvP?

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Not in and of itself, no. :D

Not in and of itself, no. :D

Consider any ramblings from me on the subject my personal opinion. There will be formal announcements on mechanics and such as we become ready to announce such things.

That said, I am sure that the people who do have a say in such things can see the forums. So bring those ideas!

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kitsune9tails wrote:
kitsune9tails wrote:

Not in and of itself, no. :D
Consider any ramblings from me on the subject my personal opinion. There will be formal announcements on mechanics and such as we become ready to announce such things.
That said, I am sure that the people who do have a say in such things can see the forums. So bring those ideas!

Going with the "Bring those ideas!" directive, here are things I think would be good:

1. Separate PVP build and PVE build for our toons, switchable at will or whenever needed.

2. PVP not dependent on PVE-acquired swag in any way, everyone gets to use the same toolkit of gear, which cannot be bought or sold or used in PVE, etc.

3. Trials, TFs, and other "launchable" instanced map content that can be done team versus team (or even toon versus toon).

4. Officially sponsored PVP events/tournaments, which are pay-to-enter and which award recognition and prizes of some real value to the winners (t-shirts, cash shop credit, etc). The more exclusive and publicly displayable the prizes are the better. For example, shirts you can't buy, you can ONLY win them, and maybe it says "Winner of the ThusAndSuch Tournament, date, event title, competition category, etc.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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While what you said was

While what you said was factually true, I think you missed the actual point of my post. My proposed message is aimed at those stunningly new to PvP, and is aimed at overcoming the jarring psychological break from PvE to PvP.

To elaborate in CoH PvE a player would solo against 3 minions and wipe them out with ease. Death was rare and often avoidable and players got used to that as the expectation.

THEN came missions inviting them to the PvP zones (The ones with the warnings I'm suggesting a change for.). And they try out some PvP. We all know what happens next. The new player dies. Repeatedly.

This wasn't the expectation PvE prepared them for! The ego then steps in and tries to preserve the player's self image built up through PvE. And very rarely is this expressed as a broadcast "Hey what am I doing wrong?" because according to PvE nothing was done wrong. Sadly much more often we get a meltdown in broadcast and PvP loses another potential player and the devs lose another reason to develop for PvP.

The problem was psychological, so the solution was also.

I don't mind if folks don't agree, but I hope this better explains what I was aiming for.:)

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:

The problem was psychological, so the solution was also.
I don't mind if folks don't agree, but I hope this better explains what I was aiming for.:)

I agree on this one, which is why in Eve Online, they introduced some AI into the PvE missions (originally with the Wormhole content IIRC, then into Incursions, and now I believe that they have rolled it out into the PvE missions, but tuned accordingly), where the NPC's would do similar tactics to what top end PvP groups were doing... ie focussed firing on targets, the ability to switch targets not necessarily according to "aggro levels" etc and so on.

They also changed the *NPC mob composition" in a few instances so that the tactics were the same, and with a couple of exceptions tried to make the NPC mobs as *close* to "player equivalents" as possible.

This meant that if you got hosed in a mission with a 500million ISK ship repeatedly[1], you would die to the same tactics in a PvP environment.

It worked, and for me, I felt that it was a good introduction to PvP, where there was little difference between PvE and PvP experience. So if you were going to complain by saying "That is unfair, I shouldn't have lost against the NPC's", the reply would be "Well in PvP, the same would have happened", or "learn to fly better and *this* is how you do it". I know that most of the VETO corp (PvP corporation/alliance tend to do this with their "victims", giving advice IF it is asked for. But just launching into a tirade against them, you will be treated with scorn.

However, it *does* require a certain mindset for the players, where they are aware that "Risk = Reward" is in play. The more risk there is, the larger the reward. This also meant that unless you were *seriously* organised, you couldn't necessarily take on the harder content without necessarily having a team involved. And yes, there were level 4 missions where I had to seriously change up what I was flying/equipping on my ship to be able to stand a chance of doing it.

And whilst people think that Eve was "spreadsheets in space", to me, I never experienced the same rush as doing a Level 4 mission, being low on shields/amour and *just* squeezing the win out of the hat. In CoX, because of the lack of serious death penalty/ease of getting back into the play. Hell, even being in 0.0 space and getting caught by a few "invaders" and trying to last as long as I can, waiting for friends/allies to come to the rescue was a rush as well (I still cannot believe that my Raven lasted as long as it did... ).

[1] I have had this happen to me, along with the skill point loss for loosing the Tech 3 ship >.<. Remember, in Eve... don't fly what you cannot afford to replace.

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2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:

While what you said was factually true, I think you missed the actual point of my post. My proposed message is aimed at those stunningly new to PvP, and is aimed at overcoming the jarring psychological break from PvE to PvP.
To elaborate in CoH PvE a player would solo against 3 minions and wipe them out with ease. Death was rare and often avoidable and players got used to that as the expectation.
THEN came missions inviting them to the PvP zones (The ones with the warnings I'm suggesting a change for.). And they try out some PvP. We all know what happens next. The new player dies. Repeatedly.
This wasn't the expectation PvE prepared them for! The ego then steps in and tries to preserve the player's self image built up through PvE. And very rarely is this expressed as a broadcast "Hey what am I doing wrong?" because according to PvE nothing was done wrong. Sadly much more often we get a meltdown in broadcast and PvP loses another potential player and the devs lose another reason to develop for PvP.
The problem was psychological, so the solution was also.
I don't mind if folks don't agree, but I hope this better explains what I was aiming for.:)

I get what you're saying and its cute, but I still disagree. I do not believe the problem lies in the shock of suddenly dying multiple times during the transition from PvE to PvP because you didn't receive a preemptive warning, it's just the feeling of dying and losing and feeling useless, regardless if you were told this would be the case before hand or not.

The majority of PvE'rs especially from CoX don't like difficult content. There was absolutely nothing challenging to do in CoX in terms of PvE. Even the supposably hard trials in the end of the game became a joke through 24 or however many teammates running around with t4 incarantes.

If a brand new person is turned away from PvPng because of his first oh so horrific traumatic experience then he just wasn't suited for that type of gameplay in the first place.

TL;DR: online carebears go away

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Psycho Jas wrote:
Psycho Jas wrote:

Impulse King wrote:
While what you said was factually true, I think you missed the actual point of my post. My proposed message is aimed at those stunningly new to PvP, and is aimed at overcoming the jarring psychological break from PvE to PvP.
To elaborate in CoH PvE a player would solo against 3 minions and wipe them out with ease. Death was rare and often avoidable and players got used to that as the expectation.
THEN came missions inviting them to the PvP zones (The ones with the warnings I'm suggesting a change for.). And they try out some PvP. We all know what happens next. The new player dies. Repeatedly.
This wasn't the expectation PvE prepared them for! The ego then steps in and tries to preserve the player's self image built up through PvE. And very rarely is this expressed as a broadcast "Hey what am I doing wrong?" because according to PvE nothing was done wrong. Sadly much more often we get a meltdown in broadcast and PvP loses another potential player and the devs lose another reason to develop for PvP.
The problem was psychological, so the solution was also.
I don't mind if folks don't agree, but I hope this better explains what I was aiming for.:)

I get what you're saying and its cute, but I still disagree. I do not believe the problem lies in the shock of suddenly dying multiple times during the transition from PvE to PvP because you didn't receive a preemptive warning, it's just the feeling of dying and losing and feeling useless, regardless if you were told this would be the case before hand or not.
The majority of PvE'rs especially from CoX don't like difficult content. There was absolutely nothing challenging to do in CoX in terms of PvE. Even the supposably hard trials in the end of the game became a joke through 24 or however many teammates running around with t4 incarantes.
If a brand new person is turned away from PvPng because of his first oh so horrific traumatic experience then he just wasn't suited for that type of gameplay in the first place.
TL;DR: online carebears go away

CoH was... pretty much a carebear game, in a good way. PvE fun oriented and focused on story and creativity with a nice, polite, respectful, supportive community. Not just another excuse for pwning and crap-talking that happened to have a Superhero skin. It would be strange for a spiritual successor to go in a very different direction from that.

Maybe that means that CoT will never be popular with hard-core PvP gamers, and, if so, maybe that's just ok. But it would be great if we could find a way to preserve what was great about CoH and improve and expand PvP too.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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The best introduction to PvP

The best introduction to PvP isn't in an open zone, it's with one or more friends or willing mentors in an instance. The newbie gets a learning experience and can grow into PvP, maybe get build advice and learn tactics against an opponent who's willing to not go all out until the newbie's had some practice...same as in real life martial arts and other competitive sports.

If that type of learning experience is available and newbies are pointed toward it (rather than open zones) by the game and the community, PvP will get more attention outside of those who are either already skilled & geared for it and the very few players who don't mind losing almost continuously as a PvP newcomer.

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Scott Jackson wrote:
Scott Jackson wrote:

The best introduction to PvP isn't in an open zone, it's with one or more friends or willing mentors in an instance. The newbie gets a learning experience and can grow into PvP, maybe get build advice and learn tactics against an opponent who's willing to not go all out until the newbie's had some practice...same as in real life martial arts and other competitive sports.

If that type of learning experience is available and newbies are pointed toward it (rather than open zones) by the game and the community, PvP will get more attention outside of those who are either already skilled & geared for it and the very few players who don't mind losing almost continuously as a PvP newcomer.

I agree on this one

Empyrean wrote:

CoH was... pretty much a carebear game, in a good way. PvE fun oriented and focused on story and creativity with a nice, polite, respectful, supportive community. Not just another excuse for pwning and crap-talking that happened to have a Superhero skin. It would be strange for a spiritual successor to go in a very different direction from that.

Maybe that means that CoT will never be popular with hard-core PvP gamers, and, if so, maybe that's just ok. But it would be great if we could find a way to preserve what was great about CoH and improve and expand PvP too.

Gangrel good point if add npcs in pvp help out carebears i mean newbs.

whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look into the abyss, the abyss also look into you, -Friedrich

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Personally I found the

Personally I found the biggest issue of PvP in CoX was the fact it wasn't twitch based. With no twitch combat a very large amount of the PvP skill comes from the powers you choose, or character build. Sure you have some limited level of skill in when to activate a certain power. But all PvP ...from first person to RTS is about defeating an opponent quickly and not really about a sustained combat. There was no real way to influence an opponents ability to damage you other than power choice (including the gear that influences it).

What I am saying is in CoX what powers you had was more important than how you used them. Please understand that I am not saying that CoX PvP was all about build just that build played the most important role.

This is why a game like DCUO may have a better PvP experience than CoX or CO. Its twitch based. If CoT went that route I think its PvP would fair better than CoX's did.....but that's an entire system that would need to be built and balanced so I think is out of reach right now.

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Personally I found the biggest issue of PvP in CoX was the fact it wasn't twitch based. With no twitch combat a very large amount of the PvP skill comes from the powers you choose, or character build. Sure you have some limited level of skill in when to activate a certain power. But all PvP ...from first person to RTS is about defeating an opponent quickly and not really about a sustained combat. There was no real way to influence an opponents ability to damage you other than power choice (including the gear that influences it).
What I am saying is in CoX what powers you had was more important than how you used them. Please understand that I am not saying that CoX PvP was all about build just that build played the most important role.
This is why a game like DCUO may have a better PvP experience than CoX or CO. Its twitch based. If CoT went that route I think its PvP would fair better than CoX's did.....but that's an entire system that would need to be built and balanced so I think is out of reach right now.

This is not to argue with you, your post just made me think of some things. I am not enough of a PvPer to know whether PvP NEEDS to be twitch-based to be fun either to existing PvPers or non-PvPers, but I wanted to make one comment.

One thing I liked about CoH was that when the emphasis moves away from twitch, it moves towards strategy (how you build and generally play your Hero/Villain) and tactics (how you combine powers and approach a particular situation or fight). Then, of course, there's always some amount of the twitch element in actually enacting your strategy and tactics in gameplay or otherwise you'd just set your toon on auto and watch it fight with your arms crossed.

This, to me, made CoH combat more cerebral. I can do fine in twitch combat with practice, but the jumpiness of it gets tiring and boring in it's own way. I enjoyed creating a build strategy and then tactically applying it to different situations, with just enough twitch that how I played mattered but wasn't the main determinant. That made play very interesting and fun without being too intense to also be RELAXING.

I used to log on and do 4/8 radios and AE missions set to high heaven to have fun and RELAX. I really miss that. Other games just don't have that feel. Now, whether that can or can't apply to PvP is for someone else to answer. But I would put forth that just because PvP ISN'T generally done that way doesn't mean that it can't or shouldn't be. It may well be that the current PvP conventions are just one way of doing it, and not necessarily the only good or best way for our community and game.

Another possibility is that--since this playerbase in general doesn't prefer typical Sword and Sorcery MMORPG PvE conventions like Armor and grinding (I say generally because it seems from these forums some do but most don't), maybe they won't prefer hardcore PvP conventions but would prefer something that would be considered a bit "carebear" to serious PvPers. But then I think the chance that CoT will be a hit with serious PvP gamers is pretty non-existant--so maybe a different way of going about it for this playerbase is warranted?

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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[quote=Empyrean
Empyrean wrote:

This is not to argue with you, your post just made me think of some things. I am not enough of a PvPer to know whether PvP NEEDS to be twitch-based to be fun either to existing PvPers or non-PvPers, but I wanted to make one comment.
One thing I liked about CoH was that when the emphasis moves away from twitch, it moves towards strategy (how you build and generally play your Hero/Villain) and tactics (how you combine powers and approach a particular situation or fight).

Gadzooks.
I inadvertently implied that I wanted twitch gameplay in PvE.
No, No, a million times NO.

When I said

islandtrevor wrote:

This is why a game like DCUO may have a better PvP experience than CoX or CO. Its twitch based. If CoT went that route I think its PvP would fair better than CoX's did.....but that's an entire system that would need to be built and balanced so I think is out of reach right now.

I was speaking directly of the PvP element which is why I added the 'entire system to be built' part...to show the twitch PvP would be separate from the more familiar style gameplay of CoX in PvE.
Sorry for not being clear on this one.

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I've played CoX for over 7

I've played CoX for over 7 years. I'm new to the forums, yes, but I have been eyeing this group's progress for some time. I'm both a PvE'er and PvP'er. I PvPed in CoX for an obscenely uncountable amount of hours, and in other mmo's for nearly as long.
Why not have a PvP system like Pokemon? Bear with me.
In the wonderful world of Pokemon, it is almost impossible to have imbalance. Fire is lethal to grass, grass to water, and water to fire. To have the best pokemon team, you need to encompass as many pokemon with different types on your team as possible.
Why not use this system of balance in PvP? Have one powerset have the advantage over another.
Here's a scenario for you:

Let fire be lethal to ice. A villain with fire abilities enters the warzone, arena, whatever. An ice-powered hero is flying around in the zone, making his rounds. The fire villain spots the ice hero, and she engages, and blasts the --- out of him. He hibernates, or does his thing, whatever he can to survive. Hibernation ends, and, little did she know, but ice hero has a water secondary set. Her secondary set is darkness, so it isn't very helpful in this situation. He uses his water moves, and they have a pretty decent fight.

Let each powerset have strength over another, and a weakness under another.

/endrant

Hope this could be of some help to you. I very much so miss CoX, and wish you all the best in your mission to create something just as worthwhile.

Battle Cry:
Freeze sucka!

Aliases: Italian-o, Italian, Hotel Desk Guy, Z-Bra

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Ice Generator wrote:
Ice Generator wrote:

I've played CoX for over 7 years. I'm new to the forums, yes, but I have been eyeing this group's progress for some time. I'm both a PvE'er and PvP'er. I PvPed in CoX for an obscenely uncountable amount of hours, and in other mmo's for nearly as long.
Why not have a PvP system like Pokemon? Bear with me.
In the wonderful world of Pokemon, it is almost impossible to have imbalance. Fire is lethal to grass, grass to water, and water to fire. To have the best pokemon team, you need to encompass as many pokemon with different types on your team as possible. .

You may not know this but appearance is going to be divorced from the power set. If you want to know what I mean check this out
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/645893
A power will not be classified as 'fire' for example so a simple fire beats ice dynamic is not exactly easy to make.

Even if it was, consider the character who used both fire and ice....how do you apply this mechanic to them?

It's an interesting idea but I just don't think it can be applied easily to CoT.

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I always thought, if a PvPer

I always thought, if a PvPer wasn't willing to work their way up through the PvE for levels, MMOs weren't the game for them.

Want to just be max level? FPS and Fighting games work for that! :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I always thought, if a PvPer wasn't willing to work their way up through the PvE for levels, MMOs weren't the game for them.
Want to just be max level? FPS and Fighting games work for that! :p

Funny.

Seeing comments of PvE'rs sprinkled about these forums, post how much they loathe PvP and would like to be able to avoid it at all costs. How would those PvE players feel if they were required to participate in PvP in order to reach the end-game? (I can already hear the screams of agony.)

If you can obtain (almost) everything you need for PvP through PvP, there would probably be little-to-none complaints. But when an MMO creates a gate where (almost) all of your necessities can only be found in PvE content, it's completely unfair. You are required to become a hardcore PvE'r in order to reach the game you have been wanting to play. The casual player certainly won't have time to endure all of those trials unless the developers create compromises or more content directed toward them.

I personally enjoy both PvP and PvE aspects of games, more-so on the PvP side. Do you have any idea how infuriating it is when you have to dedicate at least a month of casual PvE leveling just to: Try the PvP aspect of a game? Discover you dislike the PvP aspect of the game? Discover you dislike the character you're playing in PvP? Discover you're leagues behind in skill because there was little-to-none PvP access to practice in while leveling?

You shouldn't have to be the maximum level in the game just to play in PvP.

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1) Invention origin

1) Invention origin enhancements don't work in PVP zones because of the alien radiation leak which interferes with them. They will behave like a generic regular enhancement if you wear them in pvp zones, and will lack any special IO effects.

2) But you can pre-set your character to slot and use enhancements specifically for use in those zones with a separate pvp 'build'. Which is designed for compensating for the weakened enhancement benefits (for example, you can slot more recharge or accuracy, to replace missing IO global buff benefits, etc.). This should be an easy thing for a player to put together with minimal game currency (think, buying regular enhancements for a build).

Some IO types might be preferable in some parts of a pvp build, just because they split stats (like an accuracy/dmg split enhancement), which would make partial-IO builds of interest and fun to min-maxers. But the use of these IO's would confer no game changing advantage over a regular cheap enhancement build.

Otherwise all powers work the same. You don't want to be mezzed? have high defense or play a class with mezz resistance, or get it from a pool power. You don't want people running away before you can finish them off? get some snare powers, or - movement speed debuffs, or be fast enough to catch them, etc. Most of the things they tried to 'fix' in CoH pvp, already had fixes in the power sets. Frankly, as a big time fan of controllers, I stopped PVPing when they decided to make CC work differently (massively nerfed) in pvp. But I'm sure the same applied to some who built up hit&run fast attack builds, or spent a lot of time and effort getting huge cc resist, etc.

Pool powers should be tailored to help people of all powerset choices to bridge gaps in their build to get involved in pvp style gameplay or pve style gameplay respectively. If someone chooses a powerset which is strong in one form of game setting, but weak in another, power pools should be tailored to help them branch out and at least be 'passably effective' in the powerset's non-optimal setting. This could be about pvping vs pveing, or about soloing vs grouping, the pool powers should help people to make their powerset choices 'passably workable' in their chosen game play setting.

Lets keep accolades, but add some PVP-zone accolades, which require the PVE'er to spend as much time in PVP zones as the PVPer has to spend in PVE zones, to get a full accolade set. Remember, accolades were never game-breaking benefits, but for those who just have to have that extra 10% benefit... it's there. But make it so that accolades give min-maxers and achievement completionists, a reason to mingle across the pve/pvp divide.

I agree with pvp simply being "better" when the playing field is fairly even, so that build concept, and player skill, are allowed to shine without massive pvp grinding for gear (or pvp grinding for gear). All GOOD pvp games, are designed around a concept where the brand new player, is reasonably competitive, as long as they play competently. Generally MMO-PVP fails in this regard, because it favors a strongly gear-stacked system against the undergeared player, which results in an ego-inflated 'old guard' of PVPers who think it's wonderful that they can stomp all the n00bs so easily, but eventually they all quit the game when nobody comes to pvp zones to get stomped anymore. Then they start begging the devs to let them go kill n00bs in all the pve zones, or contrive a game mechanic to force some pve lambs to come to their slaughter... Which is to say that the gearing in MMO's tends to foster a badly twisted concept of what makes for good pvp in a video game. MMO's tend to have very poor pvp because gear, level, and team balance, gets in the way. If you want good pvp, make gear and level very minimally meaningful, and strictly control team balance.

Battlefield is good pvp. Hawken is good pvp (just played that all night). I have never PVP'd in an mmo all night, cuz they suck for pvp. In a good pvp game, you can install the game, and go shoot the top-scoring enemy in the face and beat him, if you're quick and a little lucky. Good pvp is skill-based, and I think in an MMO like CoH, that skill extended to one's build design. With so many build options in CoH, build design made pvp a truly intricate experience, and it worked best (I think) when the powers worked just like they do in PVE. The only serious negative from pve, was the effect high-grind, high-power gearing had on pvp... namely, the IO's. They introduced a situation which forced pvp'ers to play way more pve than they ever wanted to, and discouraged pve'ers from entering pvp against super-geared opponents. Making powers work different in pvp only increased the divide which kept the game population from trying/enjoying pvp.

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Please note that I am a hard

Please note that I am a hard-core PvEer and I tend to despise PvP. Probably because I want to do my own thing and don't want to be worried about someone coming along and killing me while I'm minding my own business.

If you want to look at the worst design for PvP, look at WoW. On a PvP server (which I joined since I had friends who were there - and they went there since, at the start of WoW, all the PvE servers were constantly full) it was really tough to level a low level character. You could be out trying to level around level 20, and someone who is level 50+ can come along and one-shot you, and then continue to kill you just because they can. If some-thing like this is implemented then I can see high level Villains camping outside the low-level hero hospital waiting for you to come out.

Even on the PvE servers, in your home territory, people from the opposite faction frequently come along and kill the quest givers and you have to wait 5-10 minutes for them to re-spawn so you can turn in your current quest and get the next one in the chain. I think this is absurd. A level 5 quest-giving NPC in a starter zone should NOT be flagged for PvP.

You may want to have a free-for-all PvP server, but you won't find me there. And those who join this server early will be able to wreck havoc with anyone else who joins it.

Mageman's Rules:I love my wifeI miss CoXWhen in doubt, refer to rule 1

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DeepThought wrote:
DeepThought wrote:

Lets keep accolades, but add some PVP-zone accolades, which require the PVE'er to spend as much time in PVP zones as the PVPer has to spend in PVE zones, to get a full accolade set. Remember, accolades were never game-breaking benefits, but for those who just have to have that extra 10% benefit... it's there. But make it so that accolades give min-maxers and achievement completionists, a reason to mingle across the pve/pvp divide.

Considering CoX's PvP became was who can kill the other person the fastest, and the way to do that was damage spam the other persons HP, then yes Accolades were game-breaking benefits.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I always thought, if a PvPer wasn't willing to work their way up through the PvE for levels, MMOs weren't the game for them.
Want to just be max level? FPS and Fighting games work for that! :p

I always thought that people like you who try to be funny end up being seriously un funny.

Ice Generator
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About the previous comments:

About the previous comments:
"Please note, that theres nothing more irrelevant than a PvE'rs thoughts on PvP, especially after they say they despise PvP."
I agree with Jas on this.
Also Mageman, not to dish out hate, but complaining about being killed in PvP when you made the decision to join a PvP server is your fault alone.

My comment:
I'd like to start with the fact that I am glad that PvP is being given thought here, regardless of how serious the thought is. I don't speak for everyone who enjoys PvP, but personally, on a PvP server in any MMO, I am totally aware of the fact that I could be killed on sight. This does not discourage me from questing, doing missions, exploring etc.

On the contrary, it makes my gaming experience all the more thrilling when I am challenged or even ambushed by another player or players in open world combat. I want to go back, find them, and whoop the ---- out of them, out of a sense of fun and excitement. I don't get angry that my questing is interrupted. I get happy that the arguably monotonous questing has been interrupted by an explosive, variable-filled scenario that couldn't possibly have ever been pre-written. But I do hope that PvP servers aren't being called into question altogether. That debate would be kind of pointless in my humble opinion.

Want a quick fix to stop the deaths of quest-giving NPC's? Look at SWTOR. They made such NPC's unattackable.

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Aliases: Italian-o, Italian, Hotel Desk Guy, Z-Bra

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Ice Generator wrote:
Ice Generator wrote:

About the previous comments:
"Please note, that theres nothing more irrelevant than a PvE'rs thoughts on PvP, especially after they say they despise PvP."
I agree with Jas on this.
Also Mageman, not to dish out hate, but complaining about being killed in PvP when you made the decision to join a PvP server is your fault alone.

So in a discussion about PvP, with a leaning towards drawing more people in, those who don't like PvP are not to be considered?
Then you go on to say its his own fault for joining a PvP server. Seriously its a discussion about PvP and he gave an example of what he doesn't like and your response is 'your fault alone'.
Its thinking like this that is going to hurt PvP the most.
And just to go on record...I like PvP but I doubt I will engage in it in CoT because of the reason I already said. When I see statements like this it makes me even less interested in PvP.

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Ice Generator wrote:
About the previous comments:
"Please note, that theres nothing more irrelevant than a PvE'rs thoughts on PvP, especially after they say they despise PvP."
I agree with Jas on this.
Also Mageman, not to dish out hate, but complaining about being killed in PvP when you made the decision to join a PvP server is your fault alone.

So in a discussion about PvP, with a leaning towards drawing more people in, those who don't like PvP are not to be considered?
Then you go on to say its his own fault for joining a PvP server. Seriously its a discussion about PvP and he gave an example of what he doesn't like and your response is 'your fault alone'.
Its thinking like this that is going to hurt PvP the most.
And just to go on record...I like PvP but I doubt I will engage in it in CoT because of the reason I already said. When I see statements like this it makes me even less interested in PvP.

As my previous comment was deleted by some overzealous moderators across this board, I'd like to change my approach and to just ask you kindly, if it's not too much of a hassle, really could you please spare a moment out of your undoubtedly busy life to explain to me why you believe those who hate PvP would even have an opinion on it (clearly not a constructive one or of use to anyone) or even believe that they should be considered in the over all design process of PvP when those who hate PvP at its very core are never going to participate in it or have a positive influence into the life of the game.

And I quote: 'its thinking like this that is going to hurt PvP the most.' I would like to - in as civil of a manner as possibly - to counteract this statement as I believe it is false in any which way you look at it. The kind of thinking that will hurt PvP the most is the kind that goes through some of these asinine people who contribute to these kinds of threads by starting off a paragraph with 'I hate PvP, BUT...' or 'I have no experience in PvP, and probably will keep it that way, BUT...' etc... etc...

AND I quote: 'When I see statements like this it makes me even less interested in PvP.' - I'm sorry you feel like this, really truly. I would like to say, from the bottom of my enormous heart that this will be a huge loss to the future PvP community of City of Titans. I can't even begin to imagine just how big of an asset you would have been to any future organised PvP events.

Thank you for taking your time out to read this and hearing my opinions, I am truly touched and moved by your care, and everyone else's.

Have an unbelievable day islandtrevor72.

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Psycho Jas
Psycho Jas wrote:

As my previous comment was deleted by some overzealous moderators across this board, I'd like to change my approach and to just ask you kindly, .

No

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Psycho Jas wrote:
As my previous comment was deleted by some overzealous moderators across this board, I'd like to change my approach and to just ask you kindly, .

No

aka shutdown lol w/e i run things most nights on PL badwater, 35 killstreak on a soldier come at me, never mind.

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Folly wrote:
Folly wrote:

If you can obtain (almost) everything you need for PvP through PvP, there would probably be little-to-none complaints. But when an MMO creates a gate where (almost) all of your necessities can only be found in PvE content, it's completely unfair. You are required to become a hardcore PvE'r in order to reach the game you have been wanting to play. The casual player certainly won't have time to endure all of those trials unless the developers create compromises or more content directed toward them.

I agree completely with this. If a player is only or more interested in PvP than any other aspect of the game then they should be able to enjoy it from day one. Give em xp, gear drops whatever in pvp....but none of that xp, gear or whatever should transfer back to PvE. Make it a separate system of leveling.
It probably wont bring anyone new into PvP though.

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It's my belief that while PVP

It's my belief that while PVP and PVE can both be done by any one person, there are types of people who are primarily interested in the PVE/RPG/co-operative aspects of the game and then there are those who are primarily interested in the PVP/competitive/smack talking/vindictive side of gaming. I think most people, in their heart and soul, fall into one category or the other but aren't truly interested in doing both things well.

The people I know who really enjoy PVP are playing to win, or more precisely playing to make the opponent(s) LOSE, because what they really want is to publicly aggrandize and glorify themselves while simultaneously denigrating and dominating the opponent(s). It's a "competitive people" versus "non competitive people" issue, I think. Most PVPers IMO don't really care what powers they have to take or what their toon's backstory is, they just want to build the toon that wins the most and loses the least. I think appealing to both player types (and I do believe they're separate types, even if many people lean one direction but aren't wholeheartedly one thing and not the other) you need to make two very different games.

Whatever the answer is, if CoT is going to have PVP I think it should appeal to PVPers first and everyone else second. I don't think this is a situation where you can try to expand your PVP customer base by making it more appealing to self-identified non-PVPers. If anything I think you'll get more PVPers jumping in from the general gaming public if you make it the most appealing PVP experience it can be to the PVPers. Trying to do otherwise, in my opinion, is almost as unproductive as trying to design a bicycle that more lobsters will want to ride.

I think the combat numbers and mechanics have to be different, or at least heavily modified for PVP versus PVE. I don't know if having a PVP server is the answer, or if not that, PVP zones. I don't know what the answer is in terms of the problems of the gear grind and mezzes and NoGetHitsu defense buffs, etc. I don't think trying to get the inherently non-PVP-oriented people (like me) involved in PVP (which many of us have no great interest in) is worth bothering to try to do. I think it's generally better to make a PVP experience that PVPers will thoroughly enjoy and a PVE experience that PVEers will thoroughly enjoy, and if the one thing ends up not appealing much to the other group, well, that's probably expected and you probably can't do much about it anyway. Just my opinion.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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The problem I have with PVP

The problem I have with PVP is that inevitably, you'll get some jerk who feels like making everyone else miserable. This high level supe will camp out in some lower level zone and pick off anyone that comes near. Will something like that happen every time? No, but it happened often enough to me in CoH to turn me off from ever entering a PVP zone completely.

Now I could have alerted the in-game mods or called for another higher level supe to clear the area, but I'm here to play the game, not wait for help (yes, I realize some of you may consider that part of the game) that may or may not come.

If CoT is going to be one massive server, with multiple zones, then each zone should be duplicated. One for PvP, one for PvE. If there are going to be multiple servers, then some servers should be designated as PvP and others designated as PvE and regardless of which way the devs go, each zone should have PvP limits. Under no circumstance can you attack another player more than three levels beneath your own level.

Just my two inf.

-Wolf sends

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

It's my belief that while PVP and PVE can both be done by any one person, there are types of people who are primarily interested in the PVE/RPG/co-operative aspects of the game and then there are those who are primarily interested in the PVP/competitive/smack talking/vindictive side of gaming. I think most people, in their heart and soul, fall into one category or the other but aren't truly interested in doing both things well.

I agree that people primarily have one side they like more than the other....but I am all for them making a PvP system that is appealing to the hardcore PvP'r AND still brings in new players.

Radiac
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I think the new players you

I think the new players you want to focus on trying to attract, from the PVP content side, are the "new to this game" players who would self-identify as PVPers from the outset. I think if the PVE content attracts PVE-interested players and the PVP content attracts PVPers, you can't lose. Whether or not any of the PVPers try the PVE or vise versa probably doesn't make you any more money (if that's the reason for it in the first place) and while it may be nice to get both player types to try both modes, they really only NEED to enjoy their chosen mode.

And as to Wolf Shadow's point, I think there are some people who want nothing more than an environment where they can be a jerk to some poor unsuspecting person without that person being able to do anything about it. To dominate, laugh at, mess with, and otherwise crap all over other players and get away with it, laughing about it all the while. This is not the type of player I want to make a game for. I want to make a game where there is PVP that PVPers want to engage in, but I don't want a game that allows and encourages a-holes to be a-holes. For what it's worth I think the devs have been pretty clear that they will not force anyone into un-wanted PVPing, and I take those comments to mean that this sort of thing (what Wolf Shadow described) won't happen. Even in CoX the respawn points in the PVPVE zones were "safe" from spawn camping, for the most part.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I think the new players you want to focus on trying to attract, from the PVP content side, are the "new to this game" players who would self-identify as PVPers from the outset. I think if the PVE content attracts PVE-interested players and the PVP content attracts PVPers, you can't lose. Whether or not any of the PVPers try the PVE or vise versa probably doesn't make you any more money (if that's the reason for it in the first place) and while it may be nice to get both player types to try both modes, they really only NEED to enjoy their chosen mode.

PvP is a way to have people continue to keep playing....or add money

syntaxerror37
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Wolf Shadow wrote:
Wolf Shadow wrote:

If CoT is going to be one massive server, with multiple zones, then each zone should be duplicated. One for PvP, one for PvE. If there are going to be multiple servers, then some servers should be designated as PvP and others designated as PvE and regardless of which way the devs go, each zone should have PvP limits. Under no circumstance can you attack another player more than three levels beneath your own level.>

Single server is what they are going for, but with multiple shards running. PvP would be it's own shard and you would have to choose to enter. As for a high level character attacking lowbies in the PvP shard. I don't know what their plan exactly is. They could institute a level range limitation, could auto exemplar you down to the area's level range, or they could go with a separate PvP build which is auto leveled to the cap.

-----------------------------------------
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I believe the relevancy of

I believe the relevancy of people who don't like PvP inserting their input into the thread is so that the Devs have something to go off of what not to do to the game that will also hurt the PvE players. You have to have both sides of the coin. If you just build a game for PvP'ers from the beginning then you'll have the issues WoW had at it's beginning stages. I know a lot of people that quit because they didn't like the fact that their lowbie character they were trying to level up kept getting killed by PvP'ers. While I agree that if PvP done right can be a good thing, most of my experiences have been PvP done wrong. It's a lot easier to build a game for PvE than it is for PvP because everybody is different in regards to how PvP should be done, how "FAIR or BALANCED" it is, and how people react to PvP. This is why I push for PvP to be separate from PvE. So we don't have to worry about PvP and PvE being "UNFAIR or UNBALANCED". Build separately with separate rules for each. Make it so you can level up in PvP by playing in arena games, or getting xp for each PvP'er you kill. Give it it's own Boosts or Enhances so you don't have to grind through PvE to get the ones you want.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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I like the "auto-exemplar

I like the "auto-exemplar everyone in the PVP zone to the same level" idea. That's how CoX did it with are3as like Warburg, etc. I think it makes the devs' lives a little easier knowing what the capabilities of the players in the zone will be. If anything, I think it might be a good idea to restrict access to such zones to only those toons which are at that level cap or higher, or else issue a warning to any lowbies trying to get in.

As for the grinding, I think if leveling to 50 (or whatever the cap will be) is as fast as it was in CoX (the later years), then that by itself isn't the problem. The problem is needing high-end, rare PVE gear to be competitive. I mean anyone can get a toon to level cap in a few days, but having to farm for salvage etc is what the PVPers really want to bypass. So XP for PVPing? Sure if you want it, but what about the gear issue? I say give everyone a "PVP Mode" button that only works in PVP zones etc and in "PVP Mode" you get access to as many of all the best stuff as everyone else. It's a toolkit, no gear grinding needed, just use what you want. This gives people the freedom to try out builds which they might later want to use in PVE if they're so inclined and you could include some kind of MIDS type interface to help the PVPers (and everyone else) tweak their builds. The only difference is that in PVP you get to actually HAVE all 5 copies of your best blast power enhancement set and in PVE you have to grind for that stuff.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I like the "auto-exemplar everyone in the PVP zone to the same level" idea. That's how CoX did it with are3as like Warburg, etc. I think it makes the devs' lives a little easier knowing what the capabilities of the players in the zone will be. If anything, I think it might be a good idea to restrict access to such zones to only those toons which are at that level cap or higher, or else issue a warning to any lowbies trying to get in.
As for the grinding, I think if leveling to 50 (or whatever the cap will be) is as fast as it was in CoX (the later years), then that by itself isn't the problem. The problem is needing high-end, rare PVE gear to be competitive. I mean anyone can get a toon to level cap in a few days, but having to farm for salvage etc is what the PVPers really want to bypass. So XP for PVPing? Sure if you want it, but what about the gear issue? I say give everyone a "PVP Mode" button that only works in PVP zones etc and in "PVP Mode" you get access to as many of all the best stuff as everyone else. It's a toolkit, no gear grinding needed, just use what you want. This gives people the freedom to try out builds which they might later want to use in PVE if they're so inclined and you could include some kind of MIDS type interface to help the PVPers (and everyone else) tweak their builds. The only difference is that in PVP you get to actually HAVE all 5 copies of your best blast power enhancement set and in PVE you have to grind for that stuff.

I spoke to much of this in the PvP section thread. Check it out.

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"So in a discussion about PvP

"So in a discussion about PvP, with a leaning towards drawing more people in, those who don't like PvP are not to be considered?" - islandtrevor72
Why do PvE'ers need to PvP? If a person wants to PvP, let them, but if they "despise" PvP, then they should not try to influence a system that they will have nothing to do with.

"It's my belief that while PVP and PVE can both be done by any one person, there are types of people who are primarily interested in the PVE/RPG/co-operative aspects of the game and then there are those who are primarily interested in the PVP/competitive/smack talking/vindictive side of gaming." -Radiac
Quite frankly, that statement is extremely insulting. Since when has PvP become about smack talking and vindictiveness? Granted, you'll see a smack talker, vindictive person in PvP every once in a while, running their mouth and making themselves seem like fools. This does not mean that PvP is or should be discolored by these types of people. There are arguably negative stereotypes about people in PvE as well, but none these stereotypes should not be given any relevance to a serious conversation about improving a game's mechanics.

"I think most people, in their heart and soul, fall into one category or the other but aren't truly interested in doing both things well." -Radiac
I have to disagree with you again, here. I ran with an entire community of people who both frequently PvE and PvP'd on SWTOR.

"And just to go on record...I like PvP but I doubt I will engage in it in CoT because of the reason I already said. When I see statements like this it makes me even less interested in PvP." -islandtrevor72
I'm all for having newcomers to both PvE and PvP. The thing is, if you're going to be so easily influenced to abandon an idea such as PvP completely, then, without trying to sound too accusatory, you probably weren't very interested in the system to begin with.

"I believe the relevancy of people who don't like PvP inserting their input into the thread is so that the Devs have something to go off of what not to do to the game"-oOStaticOo
Sadly, this was the very problem with the Dev's approach to 'fixing' CoX PvP to begin with. Let's not make the same mistake here, please. "What not to do to the game" in relation to PvP should be heard from PvPers. If people who PvE want to comment and suggest improvements to PvP, I say let them if they deign themselves to step foot in a zone enough to know what they are actually talking about. You wouldn't want a person who does nothing but PvP having major influence in the say of what things affect PvE over the experience of someone who knows PvE like the back of their hand?

That being said, a person who doesn't really know PvP can really probably only provide information that would get a powerset nerfed. This happened in CoX. I don't speak out of thin air. I've played CoX PvE and PvP for the majority of 7 ish years, and the PvE and PvP of many more MMO's to boot. I'm not saying that people who don't PvP should not get a say in what they want, but the opinion of someone with such very little experience in these matters may in fact prove more harmful than helpful.

/endrant

I do hope that no one takes dire offense to the comments posted above. I seek merely to find truth, and to dissuade opinions that are harmful to the progression of our beloved new game.

Thank you

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Thank you for the reply, Ice.

Thank you for the reply, Ice. And I'm not being facetious when I type that. The more opinions we get on this I think the better. That said, I stand by what I wrote, which is pretty much the way I see things, and it's okay with me if not everyone agrees with me. But in your post you didn't really weigh in on the issue at hand, which I believe was this:

As a PVEer and PVPer, what would you want from CoT to make both enjoyable without forcing either one upon anybody?

Would you try to make PVP more palatable to people like me who claim to hate it (which is one idea that's been floated here), or would you write me off as a non-PVPer at the core (like I would) and just make a better PVP experience for the PVPers who want it?

Do you think there are ways we could make PVE more enticing to the PVPers who say they just want to do PVP? Should we even try to do that?

Do you personally want to have to grind out PVE content in order to get influence, merits, rare salvage and recipe drops, etc or would you prefer a separate PVP system that avoids that?

This is the kind of stuff I think the devs could use input on from as many people as possible.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Ice Generator wrote:
Ice Generator wrote:

Why do PvE'ers need to PvP? If a person wants to PvP, let them, but if they "despise" PvP, then they should not try to influence a system that they will have nothing to do with.

So the game will grow, so those who are prone to avoid PvP may decide to participate, because if for no other reason than to make sure the two stay separate. If someone has a thought on the subject you don't have the right to tell them their voice does not matter.

Ice Generator wrote:

I'm all for having newcomers to both PvE and PvP. The thing is, if you're going to be so easily influenced to abandon an idea such as PvP completely, then, without trying to sound too accusatory, you probably weren't very interested in the system to begin with. .

Well if you don't take the time to read a thread then you will probably wont understand a persons position. I gave my reasons why I am not interested in the PvP this game is geared up to offer. You don't have to agree with them but they are just as valid as your reason for wanting to participate. MMO PVP has had a history of mixing PvE elements in with the PvP elements. My disinterest in engaging in this games PvP does not mean I won't or shouldn't speak to that fact.

Ice Generator wrote:

That being said, a person who doesn't really know PvP can really probably only provide information that would get a powerset nerfed. This happened in CoX. I don't speak out of thin air. I've played CoX PvE and PvP for the majority of 7 ish years, and the PvE and PvP of many more MMO's to boot. I'm not saying that people who don't PvP should not get a say in what they want, but the opinion of someone with such very little experience in these matters may in fact prove more harmful than helpful. .

And there it is. That is not the only thing a non-pvp'r can bring to the topic. The truth is everyone posting here, both PvP'r and PvE'r, are posting about their experiences in PvP. That is how they view it. You can learn as much about a topic by the negatives as the positives.
So I say let them say what they want and maybe, just maybe you will learn something.

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I PvP'd in CoX before they

I PvP'd in CoX before they had travel suppression. When Kiting somebody was the way to win. I played before they nerfed Energy Melee. When that pretty much was the only powerset to take for PvP. I PvP'd when Bots/FF with TP Foe was the way to destroy your opponent. I've done PvP. I know that generally speaking most people will look for that one trick pony that will guarantee their win. So my comments about PvP shouldn't be invalidated because you think I'm strictly a PvE'er. I've witnessed the forum discussions about PvP break down into a whine fest about how powers need to be balanced. I've seen them gripe and complain about their one trick pony being nerfed and taken away, all in the name of "balance".

I respect your opinion that PvP'ers should be the ones suggesting what needs to be done with PvP. I also agree. However, I agree with a stipulation. That stipulation is that PvP is separated from PvE. If want your PvP your way, why can't others have their PvE their way? If the two don't intermingle with each other than neither side should be able to gripe and complain about the other side. PvE won't have to worry about powers being tinkered with because PvP'ers are taking advantage of a certain power making it unfair in PvP therefore causing it to be nerfed in the name of balance. PvP won't have to worry about PvE'ers crying because somebody came along and decided to destroy them in mid quest trying to level up.

I find that this attitude that nothing a PvE'er has to say should be taken into serious consideration as belittling. You assume that we have no idea what we are talking about here. That we've never PvP'd. That we aren't true PvP'ers. You don't know that, and to assume so is a huge mistake. Don't pretend to know my past history with MMO's regarding PvP. If PvP is separated from PvE then I will gladly leave the PvP'ers to determine the fate of PvP. However, if it is mixed in with my PvE then you can bet your sweet ass I'm going to try to input my .02 inf to try to keep PvP from doing anything that will greatly affect my PvE experiences.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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Remaining on the discussion

Remaining on the discussion at hand is a wise decision, Radiac. I believe that PvP is PvP, no matter how you slice it, and the competitive environment that is PvP will always be just that. People who enjoy such competition, no matter what they call themselves, will PvP. Those who enjoy the story based content will PvE.
"I think if the PVE content attracts PVE-interested players and the PVP content attracts PVPers, you can't lose." -Radiac
Couldn't have said it better myself.
People who don't enjoy the competition of PvP, won't. No manner of story injection into the PvP realm can help that.

That being said, there are in fact ways to help people who are newcomers to PvP, (whether they are new to MMO's in general or have simply never given much thought to PvP)
transition into the often extremely fast pace world of competitive PvP. Even if a player doesn't want to get too competitive, there are ways to make PvP easier to transition to.

Have a beginner's bracket. Depending on how PvP is going to be implemented in this game, there are various ways to do this. I would prefer to have numerous ways to PvP.
1) Queing for PvP instances is priority one. SWTOR needs to be looked at for this type of PvP. Gear is rendered pretty much useless in these instances until the max level, when PvP gear can be purchased.
2) Two, is for there to be select zones scattered throughout the world that are PvP enabled. As spaced out, level wise, as Bloody Bay, Siren's call, etc. These zones should have story content though, but be considered extremely dangerous in the lore. Such 'warzones' will give players a taste of PvP, without getting too competitive. In other words, they are just for fun alone, and not competition. Against players, gear should again be rendered basically useless here.
3) Competition comes into play in the third method of PvP - the arena system. Have it be random que, guild v guild, or the like. Don't touch the stats of these characters. Let the player's hard work that went into building their character be tested here.

Or you can give each character a PvP rank. When a character ques for instance PvP, they are only queing with players in their bracket, in their skill level. That rank can either increase or decrease depending on their success rate.

Also, it should be just as easy to level up and gear up in PvP as it is in PvE in my humble opinion.

Hope this helps

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Ice Generator wrote:
Ice Generator wrote:

Two, is for there to be select zones scattered throughout the world that are PvP enabled. As spaced out, level wise, as Bloody Bay, Siren's call, etc. These zones should have story content though, but be considered extremely dangerous in the lore. Such 'warzones' will give players a taste of PvP, without getting too competitive. In other words, they are just for fun alone, and not competition. Against players, gear should again be rendered basically useless here.

Im confused, you want content in a pvp zone as a way to bring new people in? That was the biggest problem CoX had with zone PvP. It will lead to all the same issues people are talking about now. I just don't think this is a good idea.

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Carebear STARE!

Carebear STARE!

There seem to be a couple different attitudes about PVP; an exclusive one, where the quality of the PvP experience is prized above 'converting' PvE players, and the opposite: an inclusive one where getting a variety of new players to play and enjoy PVP is worth some 'carebear' aspects.

Just a subjective observation.

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Ice Generator
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"Im confused, you want

"Im confused, you want content in a pvp zone as a way to bring new people in? That was the biggest problem CoX had with zone PvP. It will lead to all the same issues people are talking about now. I just don't think this is a good idea." -Islandtrevor72

Could you be more specific? "All the same issues" is a bit vague. I fail to see problems with this if there is instance PvP and the other systems to which I referred in my previous statement.

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

If PvP is separated from PvE then I will gladly leave the PvP'ers to determine the fate of PvP. However, if it is mixed in with my PvE then you can bet your sweet ass I'm going to try to input my .02 inf to try to keep PvP from doing anything that will greatly affect my PvE experiences.

This. And that stands even if PvP and PvE areas are completely divorced in the world but PvP still affects PvE in areas like power set design or even the market. I believe that's why the OP wanted to bring the two "sides" closer together rather that cause an ideological divide.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Ice Generator wrote:
Ice Generator wrote:

Could you be more specific? "All the same issues" is a bit vague. I fail to see problems with this if there is instance PvP and the other systems to which I referred in my previous statement.

Man, this is why you need to consider what a PvE person says when he discusses PvP...
One of the major complaints the non-pvp'r has is that they were in the PvP zone for the content or rewards and were interrupted by PvP'rs. Now you can think that player is silly for thinking he can just go into a PvP and avoid encountering players or not. You should at least consider the 'content' lure into PvP is a bad idea.

Edited to include...
Zone PvP was not where the hardcore PvP'rs resided in CoX...it was the arena. Sure they dabbled but it was as you said for fun.
The ones who spent a lot of time in PvP zones were the type of PvP'r you do not like to be group with. The player who delights in having an advantage over another and rubbing their nose in it.
This is a major reason why the players who may like PvP never give it a try and because their first experience was zone PvP that was pretty much filled with these players.
Of course there are always exceptions to every generalization.

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WHY ARE PEOPLE GETTING SO

WHY ARE PEOPLE GETTING SO UPSET AND INSULTED BY LOSING ON AN ONLINE GAME? ARE YOU GUYS SERIOUS? EVERY TIME I READ 'UCH THESE JERKS IN ZONES ALWAYS BELITTLE ME WHEN I LOSEEEEE! I LOST 90-6 AGAINST WARE.BAD OVER 3 GAMES AND I DIDN'T SHED A SINGLE TEAR :'(

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Quite a bit of over

Quite a bit of over-generalizing going on here about the types of players who partake in Player vs. Player combat. Not all of us share the same crude personality as some describe – playing for the sole purpose of making other players miserable. Nor are personalities are as blatant as black and white, or good versus evil. In fact, personalities are just as varying as the rainbow.

There are players who play dirty. There are players who play fair. There are players who will escort those in need. There are Zergers. There are Soloers. There are Duelers. There are Small-Mans. There are Elite Groups. There are Adders. There are Stoners. There are Trolls. There are Roleplayers. There are odd players who create a play style and build so obscure – it works. There are even players who will assist an opposing faction being grieved.
Do not assume we are all out preying on less fortunate players.

I have met guilds that were considered “elite” while at the same time “well respected”. They were not vengeful and they did not prey on numbers lesser than their own, unless provoked.
I have seen guilds that were the complete opposite. Pillaging every town and killing every enemy player. Sometimes forming armies to obliterate everything in sight.

Player vs. Player is fueled by rivalry. Players are going to be competitive, some of them may lose their temper. As delicately as I can put it, you can't be deeply offended by the actions of other players in any game. It's understandable that not everyone can handle the vulgarity of some PvP players. Please bare in mind - we're not all evil.

Copy Pasted from another Forum Post I made:

Quote:

What is Open-World Player vs. Player? Chaotic Fighting.
A world bound by (almost) no rules. Players may fight anywhere, at any time, with any group composition, with any numbers, with any play-style. You can play dirty, you can challenge yourself and take on larger numbers than your own, you can flee, you can add fights, and you can even zerg! It’s the unknown factor that makes this such a thrilling experience.

How is it any different from an Arena? Arranged Fighting.
Arenas are bound by rules players create before engaging in combat with the key factors being: fairness and equality. Fights can be customized by factors such as numbers, classes, group composition, and maps of preference. Once the requirements are met, players are teleported into a secluded area to have their brawl. Sometimes there are objectives. There is no such thing as breaking rules, outnumbering enemies, and adding fights – you always know who you are up against and you can choose your battles.

Please understand, there is a difference between the two battlefields. Not all of us enjoy playing under the same battlefield, hence why I suggest allowing players the various options to choose from.

In Open-World Player vs. Player, should one play-style be disallowed, or unavailable, the scales tip a little bit. Much of this world is counter-balanced by other play-styles, by the players themselves, so no one play-style becomes too powerful. When there is a low population, there are less varying players available to combat, thus allowing the few enemies lurking about to have an easier conquest to domination. Which may sometimes lead to the crude egos some players encountered. How can we minimize those effects from happening? Keeping the population active is a start. So there are always combatants available, and you are not always encountering the same player(s).

As a side thought, I believe, it’s not fair to completely dismiss all of the PvE players’ thoughts. Some of them do bring up valid arguments that should probably be taken into consideration. However, they should not be the main focus to build the PvP aspect around.

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Ultimately there are two

Ultimately there are two things that can be done to encourage participation in PvP, both of which have been mentioned in this thread.

From the developers: keep the barriers to entry as low as possible (i.e. don't require new players to go through a grind just to be on an even playing field).

From the players: hold some kind of (ideally regular) 'introduction to PvP' event to show the basics to those who are not familiar with PvP and/or the game.

Past that it is, for the most part, a question of leaving the chips to fall where they may.

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Folly wrote:
Folly wrote:

There are players who play dirty. There are players who play fair. There are players who will escort those in need. There are Zergers. There are Soloers. There are Duelers. There are Small-Mans. There are Elite Groups. There are Adders. There are Stoners. There are Trolls. There are Roleplayers. There are odd players who create a play style and build so obscure – it works. There are even players who will assist an opposing faction being grieved.
Do not assume we are all out preying on less fortunate players.

The problem is the way CoX used lures for PvP zones meant a great many player only had contact with those who represent the less than friendly PvP'r. You can say to those people apples are good but if all they have ever seen and eaten is the rotten apples then they are just not going to agree.
I am more for finding a way to introduce players to friendly competitive PvP, while limiting the effect the aggressive confrontational PvP'r can have on them.
Here I posted this in the other thread but I will drop it here so you can see my idea....

Basically my opinion on how to treat PvP is treat Zone PvP and Arena PvP different.

Zone PvP-To advance you earn xp and gear much as you would in PvE. It doesn't matter if you are level 50 or 1 your first time in a PvP zone you are a gearless level 1 PvP'r. The reverse is also true, If you spent all your time in a PvP zone then your gear and xp is useless in PvE.
As a level 1 PvP'r you are restricted to the starter PvP'r zone. As you gain levels in PvP you can either advance to the next PvP zone or stay in this one, but you won't be able to use powers or gear beyond the zone limits. I would say you can still gain xp (this may cause PvP leveling exploits) but it would be up to the devs how to deal with that issue.
This gives the hardcore PvP'r a home. A way to advance without having to waste time in PvE and gear that was made with PvP in mind. It also gives a way for a new PvP'r to enter PvP without the traditional culture shock you usually get (to an extent at least). The new PvP'r can be eased into the system without having to deal with other players who have a distinct advantage in gear, level or power selection. It does have the major drawback where someone who is level 50 can't use that same character at the same power level in PvP and so may not bother with it at all. Thats where splitting PvP zone and Arena comes in.

Arena PvP- To go with the PvP zone separation there should obviously be a way for people who want to PvP with their favorite character without having to level and gear up all over. In my idea arena combat will have many optional flags. A flag for PvE only gear/level, a flag for PvP only gear/level and a flags for any variation (IE PvE level and PvP gear). Flags for earning PvP xp and gear and flags for not earning them (again this can lead to exploits the devs would have to consider). This allows those who like to dabble in PvP to set up a match where they can use their PvE character and decide right there what they consider fair in terms of balancing the match.

There is also the added benefit of alting (which the devs have said to be a goal for them). While each character could have both a pvp build and a pve build, most PvP'rs will tend to create a specific character with specific powers for PvP....so alting.

My idea tends to not be popular though.

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If there is going to be this

If there is going to be this hard of a split between the PvE and PvP (and the dabblers), I *hope* that there is *right from level 1* multiple builds for the character (if enhancements are going to be like CoX where once you slot them, you could only replace them with another enhancement whilst destroying what was in there) or the ability to *easily* respec between "PvE and PvP" orientated abilities (without a cost)

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

If there is going to be this hard of a split between the PvE and PvP (and the dabblers), I *hope* that there is *right from level 1* multiple builds for the character (if enhancements are going to be like CoX where once you slot them, you could only replace them with another enhancement whilst destroying what was in there) or the ability to *easily* respec between "PvE and PvP" orientated abilities (without a cost)

Of course. You could not have a system like this without two builds....well you could but in the end it would mean that gaining a level in PvP erased you PvE progress.

Fireheart
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I may just be a clueless

I may just be a clueless PvEer, but I don't see why you would need a different build/gear to PvP.

Be Well!
Fireheart

islandtrevor72
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I may just be a clueless PvEer, but I don't see why you would need a different build/gear to PvP.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Well, as I said you wouldn't in my suggestion. You can use your PvE'r in the arena without changing anything....you would just then be able to match your opinions of fairplay much easier in an arena than in a zone where anything goes.

But why a hardcore PvP'r would want separate builds is because the dynamic of a player opponent is different than a npc opponent. A power's duration, activation time, recharge ect all have a different importance than in the PvE game. For example look at a couple of powersets from CoX, ice blast and energy blast.

Energy blast had slower animation (generally) than Ice Blast. This meant that you were standing still longer with Energy blast that with Ice. Standing still in PvP opens you up for different types of attacks, the PbAOE, the assassin strike, melee attacks ect. You can be punished while rooted in an animation fairly easy in PvP while in PvE being rooted in animation is not as dangerous, avoiding an npc is much easier.
There is also the secondary effects in both powers. Energy with KB and Ice with -recharge and -spd. Being hit with a power that uses KB can knock you down, but it is a very short duration (in most cases) and as a player you have many options to limit this effect with the use of inspirations or power selection (like acrobatics). -recharge and -spd is a stackable persistent effect that has a lot fewer way to mitigate. The danger of being hit by either of these in PvE is smaller due to the npc's not being opportunists. In PvP a player will seize the advantage as much as possible.

Hope that helps you understand.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I may just be a clueless PvEer, but I don't see why you would need a different build/gear to PvP.
Be Well!
Fireheart

If they build this game right from the start with PvP in place, there shouldn't really need to be. But it's always nice to have the option. (Providing that the way powers work don't change between PvE and PvP)

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Here's what I think they

Here's what I think they should do:

1. Create, as I've described, a switch the toggles you between "PVP mode" and "PVE Mode" which shifts your power spec and slotting and enhancements to whatever build you've selected for that mode. In PVP mode, you can access a set of PVP-only enhancements that are yours to use, free and clear, no cost, no grinding and use them to build your toon for PVP any way you want. I envision the building process as having a MIDS-like interface that tells you all the numbers you want to know, etc and the build you end up arriving at can be applied to PVP Mode or, if you actually have hte PVE swag, you can set it to be your PVE Mode build. You could even use the same build for both if you really want to. In PVP mode you'd be using copies of the same sort of gear that's available in PVE and/or different stuff that's PVP-only. While you're in PVE mode, you have to grind for gear and use what you've found, bought, crafted, etc to fill out your desired build. This not only frees the PVPers from having to grind a lot of repetitive PVE content for merits and drops, it also gives the PVEers a way to play test builds that they haven't yet invested the time and money into grinding for.

2. Have ONE public, free-for-all, PVPVE zone and make it one that requires people to be at the level cap to enter. Give it safe-zones where people respawn and can load up on insps, etc without getting ganked five seconds after respawning. Basically, like Recluse's Victory, though maybe not with the same exact zone game attached to it. Having multiple zones that function like this only spreads out the PVPers into more different areas and makes the zones themselves less well-attended overall. Having only one such zone assures better population of that zone by the people who want to do that.

3. Have Arena PVP where people can play your usual PVP type game in instanced maps. 1 on 1, two-person-teams, you can set level cap, you can set all sorts of PVP rules like number of frags to win, etc.

4. Have specific, team versus team PVP trials and task forces that pit one team against the other. I envision this as feeling something like Marvel's Secret Wars storyline of the 80s, but there could be various different ones for different levels, different size teams, etc. There's even the possibility of having a competitive trial where two teams compete side by side but can't attack each other. Like "First team to find and click all the glowwies, then defeat their AV wins" or whatever.

5. Have company-sponsored PVP tournaments or other such events that reward the winners with some kind of public recognition on the game website and real world stuff like T-shirts, cash shop credit, etc, because PVPers love glory and prizes.

This leaves some questions unanswered:

Q1. Is there some value in having PVP recipe and enhancement drops (which I'm advocating getting rid of entirely), or does the requirement that there be at least one other person to PVP against make such things so much harder to get that it's bad to have that? I can see people wanting to PVP to get better PVP swag, if such exists, so maybe we need to make the PVP mode have all PVE-style gear available for free and then have PVP Mode gear be the really hard to get stuff that you have to get via random drop upnon defeating someone in PVP, advancing to some level in a tourny, completing a PVP trial and winning, etc to get.

Q2. Why would anyone go to a PVPVE zone and get involved in Recluse's Victory-style PVPVE fights if there isn't some possible reward for it like Warburg Nukes and jellomen etc? Do these types of zones need that sort of unique draw to get people to go there? The reason people went to different zones in CoX was because missions sent us there or because we wanted to street sweep for XP etc. If no PVE mission or contact sends me to the PVPVE zone, why would I go there, just to do PVPVE? That seems insufficient to prompt anyone to go to a specific place and do a specific thing. Maybe we need PVP Mode Enhancements for this reason.

Q3. Can we fund these sponsored PVP events or is the cost prohibitively high?

This is as far as my thinking takes me, I know not everyone likes these ideas, but I really am trying to find a system that gives the various stake-holders what they want to entice them to play the game and (ideally, for me) pay a sub for it.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Fireheart wrote:
I may just be a clueless PvEer, but I don't see why you would need a different build/gear to PvP.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Well, as I said you wouldn't in my suggestion. You can use your PvE'r in the arena without changing anything....you would just then be able to match your opinions of fairplay much easier in an arena than in a zone where anything goes.
But why a hardcore PvP'r would want separate builds is because the dynamic of a player opponent is different than a npc opponent. A power's duration, activation time, recharge ect all have a different importance than in the PvE game. For example look at a couple of powersets from CoX, ice blast and energy blast.
Energy blast had slower animation (generally) than Ice Blast. This meant that you were standing still longer with Energy blast that with Ice. Standing still in PvP opens you up for different types of attacks, the PbAOE, the assassin strike, melee attacks ect. You can be punished while rooted in an animation fairly easy in PvP while in PvE being rooted in animation is not as dangerous, avoiding an npc is much easier.
There is also the secondary effects in both powers. Energy with KB and Ice with -recharge and -spd. Being hit with a power that uses KB can knock you down, but it is a very short duration (in most cases) and as a player you have many options to limit this effect with the use of inspirations or power selection (like acrobatics). -recharge and -spd is a stackable persistent effect that has a lot fewer way to mitigate. The danger of being hit by either of these in PvE is smaller due to the npc's not being opportunists. In PvP a player will seize the advantage as much as possible.
Hope that helps you understand.

lmaaaaaaaooo stacking -spd lmaooo never mind buddy

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Here's what I think they should do:
1. Create, as I've described, a switch the toggles you between "PVP mode" and "PVE Mode" which shifts your power spec and slotting and enhancements to whatever build you've selected for that mode. -SNIP-
2. Have ONE public, free-for-all, PVPVE zone and make it one that requires people to be at the level cap to enter. -SNIP-.
3. Have Arena PVP where people can play your usual PVP type game in instanced maps. -SNIP-
4. Have specific, team versus team PVP trials and task forces that pit one team against the other.-SNIP-
5. Have company-sponsored PVP tournaments or other such events that reward the winners with some kind of public recognition on the game website and real world stuff like T-shirts, cash shop credit, etc, because PVPers love glory and prizes.
This leaves some questions unanswered:
Q1. Is there some value in having PVP recipe and enhancement drops -SNIP-.
Q2. Why would anyone go to a PVPVE zone and get involved in Recluse's Victory-style PVPVE fights if there isn't some possible reward for it like Warburg Nukes and jellomen etc? -SNIP-.
Q3. Can we fund these sponsored PVP events or is the cost prohibitively high?

1-Its a good idea, and I think its would fit fairly well to what MWM is planning.

2-I think a single zone will be limiting. Part of a pvp zone is that there is an overall goal you can work towards. If you try and stuff too many goals in one zone it becomes difficult to make the goals separate enough that you can participate in the ones you want. If you have one goal then the others are ignored. If you rotate the goal then a person needs to be able to play at that time to participate in what he wants to. There is also the fact that one zone with a level requirement alienates those who want to participate in PvP without being required to play the PvE game.

3-I agree, arena is a fundamental aspect of PvP. It is where the players decide completely what type of PvP they want to engage in, and with more flags for controlling the combat the players can decide what is fair in terms of game play.

4-I would love this. Balancing would obviously need to be considered, a way to find an even skill level matchup to avoid the 'pub stomping' aspect but overall a very good idea.

5-Sure. It doesn't exactly say new players join us to me but its a way to give the PvP'rs a reward that has no tangible in game effect. Not sure about the cash shop credit though. Until we see exactly what MWM will be selling in the shop I would be wary of purchasable powers/gear.

Q1-I believe there is. Dividing gear into PvP only and PvE only is a way to maintain balance. As I said before with a PvP gear reward the devs can design it with PvP in mind and not need to worry about its effects in PvE. The reverse is also true.

Q2-Well I think there should be rewards for PvP. They should be in the form of XP, pvp gear, pvp costume sets ect. I just don't think that PvP rewards (other than cosmetic) should transfer into the PvE game. A reward can be the nuke or shivan but those should not be used in PvE. If they want a way for a player to use them in PvE then there should be a PvE way to get them.

Q3-I have no idea. It would depend on things like the amount of involvement MWM had and how often they were offered.

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I think that if more zones

I think that if more zones were setup (similar to the Guild Wars 2 auto exemping) with different style of objectives it could get interesting. A zone for example could be a "capture the flag" style of map, another could be a King of the Hill style game play etc etc.

And for more variety, you could also add these game styles into the arena as well.

Quote:

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2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
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4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Mageman wrote:
Mageman wrote:

If you want to look at the worst design for PvP, look at WoW. On a PvP server (which I joined since I had friends who were there - and they went there since, at the start of WoW, all the PvE servers were constantly full) it was really tough to level a low level character. You could be out trying to level around level 20, and someone who is level 50+ can come along and one-shot you, and then continue to kill you just because they can. If some-thing like this is implemented then I can see high level Villains camping outside the low-level hero hospital waiting for you to come out.

The problem of PvPtards whose personal measure of their worth in PvP is how fast/often they can gank an opponent who has no viable method to defend themselves, and has no chance to even inconvenience the ganker, is endemic to MMOs, and with some games generates additional asshattery in the pursuit of this goal. For example, in SWTOR, PvP flagging is 'contagious' -- buffing a character flagged for PvP flags you for PvP, and there are a number of ways that someone who is flagged for PvP can force someone from the opposite faction to involuntarily flag themselves for PvP (at which point the PvP jerk ganks them).

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srmalloy wrote:
srmalloy wrote:

The problem of PvPtards whose personal measure of their worth in PvP is how fast/often they can gank an opponent who has no viable method to defend themselves, and has no chance to even inconvenience the ganker, is endemic to MMOs, and with some games generates additional asshattery in the pursuit of this goal. For example, in SWTOR, PvP flagging is 'contagious' -- buffing a character flagged for PvP flags you for PvP, and there are a number of ways that someone who is flagged for PvP can force someone from the opposite faction to involuntarily flag themselves for PvP (at which point the PvP jerk ganks them).

I get your point, there is a subsection of PvP players who will abuse the system. Just as there are PvE subsections who abuse that system. Calling them tards or jerks is just not helpful.
It's obvious you are not a fan of those type of players, is there a way you think will limit their ability to impact you negatively while not limiting the players who enjoy PvP and are not that type of player?

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I just want to say that I

I just want to say that I have no interest in pvp.

please keep pve powers away from pvp, if fireball or iceball is not fair in pvp then dont please ruin it in pve.

city did this to us with energy melee set t9 and i left game.

Peace and Love!

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I started this thread because

I started this thread because I thought discussion about something that CoH evidently never quite got right--and that many MMORPG's seem to find difficult--would be good for the game. In following this thread, I have been amazed at what a complex and in some cases surprisingly emotional topic this is.

I only PvP'd a few times at different times in CoH history--not enough to have really been aware of the different "phases" CoH PvP went through. I never had a "bad" experience with PvP, probably because I usually play very carefully built damage-tanks, so I never felt "ganked" or "pwned" even when I lost because they always had to work for it. When I did get really "ganked" or "pwned" it was usually two or more working together, so that took the sting out of it. But that's the extent of my PvP experience in CoH.

I tried PvP in Champions and did fairly well (won as many as I lost over all), but didn't find it as fun as PvE and eventually just stopped. Sadly, PvE didn't stay fun in Champions due to lack of development on any level. The poor game was just abandoned.

I never tried PvP in DCUO, which is odd, because it probably has the best PvP of all three from what I hear. But, by that point, I just knew I wasn't a PvPer.

Anyway, PvP seems to be a real puzzle. I would think that the chances of CoT being a huge success with hardcore PvPers are pretty slim. But does that mean that PvP should be an afterthought as it was in CoH and just abandoned to become whatever it becomes, or should it be approached as a separate "sub game" within the game so as not to bork PvE by changes needed in PvP affecting both, or should the approach be to not even try to court the hard-core PvPers at all and to come up with PvP that appeals to PvEers more and meshes with the PvE experience of the game.

I guess my question is not what specific things should be done, but what should be the overall approach and philosophy for the game?

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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To quote islabndtrevon72 the

To quote islandtrevor72 the old fashioned way:
"Q2-Well I think there should be rewards for PvP. They should be in the form of XP, pvp gear, pvp costume sets ect. I just don't think that PvP rewards (other than cosmetic) should transfer into the PvE game. A reward can be the nuke or shivan but those should not be used in PvE. If they want a way for a player to use them in PvE then there should be a PvE way to get them. "

I would note that I don't think any costume pieces should require PVP to obtain them. Same for costume slots, server slots for adding more alts, etc. I wouldn't want my ability to respec my build(s) to be dependent on PVP, I wouldn't want my ability to make costume changes and/or the influence cost of my costume changes to be PVP-dependant, etc.

I think all that leaves as rewards for success in PVP are cash shop credit, free VIP time, real world swag like mousepads, etc, and PVP recipes/enhancements. If having ultra rare PVP enhancements isn't too frustrating for the rest of the PVPers, I think that might be good. But I don't know.

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Philosophy:

Philosophy:

Recognize that players are not binary (PvE or PvP) or even trilateral (PvE or both or PvP) in their preferences for gameplay. They fit a multiaxis model (solo<>team, PvE<>PvP, story-driven<>reward-driven, pug<>friend-only, and more)...and each player shifts around on those axes based on their mood at the moment. To maximize a game's appeal to any single player, or to players as a whole, a sufficient number of gametypes must be created (and designed well) so that a large space in that multiaxis model is available. Thus each player can move freely between gametypes to satisfy their moment-to-moment gameplay preference, without switching to an entirely different game.

Overall approach:

1.) Identify the most popular nodes of that multiaxis model. PvE solo story, PvE small team, PvE full team, PvE league, PvP 1v1 arena, PvEvP open zone territory control, PvP open zone, PvE solo reward, PvP instanced 4 v 4, etc. The list can grow quite long; listen to the players and observe other popular games.

2.) Since we're talking about CoT (and MMOs in general), recognize which gametypes can best be implemented in the MMO format and take into account the expectations of the players to whom CoT is trying to appeal. Discard any outlier gametypes and then prioritize the remainder for development based on # of players served and cost to develop & maintain.

3.) Get specific input from players who enjoy (or intend to try) each gametype, and guide the design of each based on what other games have done well or poorly.
3a.) Match rewards to the gametype. Don't try to push gametype A by providing rewards there that really belong in gametype B. Allow full progression within each gametype, unless limited development resources force it as a temporary measure. Some gametypes may reward at a higher rate to balance for difficulty and time commitment, but every gametype should have a reasonably paced progression from start to max.
3b.) Do not allow any aspect of one gametype to unduly influence another gametype. Obviously gametypes which are similar should feel similar where possible to allow for the easiest possible transfer of skills and knowledge, but allow some well-explained and logical differences to prevent harmful side effects when one gametype is adjusted.
3c.) Allow rapid switching between gametypes and minimal restrictions on which gametypes are available at a given time. Do not design certain gametypes to be only available on weekends, or set a high barrier to play several notably diverse gametypes; for example, provide multiple free builds if the player is likely to want a specialized build for a certain gametype, and make it easy to manage these multiple builds through solid UI design.
3d.) Make difficulty widely adjustable, with options that are appropriate to each gametype.

4.) Expand over time, with more gametypes and more options within each gametype. However, give higher priority to bugfixes, filling gaps in progression paths and rebalancing any aspects that harm existing gametypes. Player feedback is necessary to guide this process.

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On a more general note, I

On a more general note, I also want to say that I think the "level your way to the cap via PVP only" thing is probably not terribly important. For one thing, if leveling is as fast in this game as it was in the latter years of CoX, you'll be able to PVE your way to the cap so quickly it won't matter.

Secondly, PVP requires the participation of at least one other person and as such could make for very slow leveling depending on where you live, how often you're on, what time of day you tend to be on, etc. You can't truly "solo" in PVP, and leveling kinda requires you to be able to solo for levels when nobody else is on or willing to join you.

I think treating PVP primarily as an "endgame" activity makes sense for this reason, and after all, this is supposed to be a "spiritual successor" to a game that very often had no PVP going on at all simply because nobody wanted to do it, or wanted to play a red-sider for that matter.

In any event, if I were PVPing to win, I would generally want to outlevel the PVP content then play it exemplared down so as to be sure I'm maxxed in terms of combat effectiveness. As such any lower-than-cap PVP you do get engaged in is probably as exemplared from whatever level you are to the level cap for the PVP thing you're doing anyway.

I like the "one PVPVE zone" approach (at least at launch, maybe add more later if it looks like a good idea) because CoX had like 4 of them and they were always empty. The last thing you want, as a company, is to have spent time and resources making three extra PVPVE zones that nobody ends up using and, in the process, creating the problem of having like 8 people who want to play PVP logged in and then they can't all agree on a zone to do it in, or they're all different levels and can't all go to the same place, etc. I certainly think the PVP trials and the Arena matches should have a range of different level caps and exemplaring, but I think open world PVPVE should, at least at first, be in one big PVPVE zone that requires you to be at the game's overall level cap to enter.

One other idea I had to draw people to the PVPVE zone(s) would be to come up with some sort of event or thing like a Weekly Strike Target whereby you'd have regularly scheduled PVPVE events for people to participate during a given week or even on a specific day in the PVPVE zone(s) and advertize the schedule on the web so everyone would be able to plan for it. You could have one PVPVE zone, but then have different zone games to play in it, albeit on different days/weeks. This week is launch the rocket, next week is collect the meteor sample, after that is assault the bunkers, etc.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

islandtrevor72
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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

I guess my question is not what specific things should be done, but what should be the overall approach and philosophy for the game?

The game is primarily a PvE game so that should be the first concern. Even with that there is more than enough room for PvP to be included. Adding PvP adds value to the game. It gives PvP'r something they can do. It offers extended play value.

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