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Competitive PvE

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JayBezz
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Competitive PvE

I love the open missions and zone events .. in Champions Online they even rank these events.

I would love more ability to compete to "be the best" in PvE.

Any plan for this play style in City of Titans?

- -

As a Crowd Control/Debuff player I always got dead last.

I would love if a system could base completive PvE on a factor in

Damage Dealt
Damage Taken
Damage Healed (Maybe even damage attempted to heal?)
Mez Dealt
Debuff Dealt
Buff Dealt to others

But this would require a qualitative system for ALL classes. Mez Points, Buff Points, Debuff Points FTW

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chase
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Just leave the option to opt

Just leave the option to opt out and not include me in the rankings or show them at all... or better-still, something you opt into. I'm fundamentally opposed to anything that makes PvE less 'team building' and more competitive, but I also I find it sadly funny when people feel like they "won" something against people that, frankly, weren't chasing after the same goal that they were. It's kinda like running down a sidewalk and cheering that you beat all the pedestrians casually strolling along the same route.

It's more honest to both the other participants AND the competitors if everyone knows who was actually trying to rack up a score, as opposed to enjoying the event, helping others, etc.

HarvesterOfEyes
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This---^

This---^

Have any competition you want. Just leave me out of it by default.

Get yourself right; the world has enough problems.

JayBezz
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chase wrote:
chase wrote:

Just leave the option to opt out and not include me in the rankings or show them at all... or better-still, something you opt into. I'm fundamentally opposed to anything that makes PvE less 'team building' and more competitive, but I also I find it sadly funny when people feel like they "won" something against people that, frankly, weren't chasing after the same goal that they were. It's kinda like running down a sidewalk and cheering that you beat all the pedestrians casually strolling along the same root.
It's more honest to both the other participants AND the competitors if everyone knows who was actually trying to rack up a score, as opposed to enjoying the event, helping others, etc.

I think the point here is to grant points for ALL forms of participation.. Healers get points for healing just as much as DPSers get points for DPS, Debuffers for Debuffs, etc.

The aggregate score should put players on a rather even playing field then.

I understand some may want to opt out of seeing the "score" in the end, but with all competition it's meant to be on an even playing field (Where in every other game I've played only Damage and Mitigation get participation points). In many games this is nothing more than cosmetic, as the rewards table does not follow any of the players efficacy in combat.

- -

I am a roleplayer, but above all things this is a video game. If I wanted to simply play paper dolls I would not have quit Champions Online. A major objective in many (not all) video games is to "win". If you did an AMAZING job as a healer I think you should have somewhere to show it. MOST players don't even NOTICE the tactics of other people and only focus on what their character is doing. By watching those who continuously get high marks you can then watch them or better yet, befriend them and ask them for their advice.

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HarvesterOfEyes
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Quote:
Quote:

I understand some may want to opt out of seeing the "score" in the end,

The urge to turn every act in to a competition repulses me (and not just me). That's how I receive your initial suggestion.

Team play is what attracts me to a game "like CoH". Your suggestion runs contrary to my concept of teamwork.

I don't want to opt out of seeing the score. I want to opt out of any pretense of being involved in someone else's contests.

Get yourself right; the world has enough problems.

chase
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I understand about weighing

I understand about weighing things so that healers get credit for their part, etc, but I still want absolutely no part of it.

Winning's about the farthest from my mind in every game I've ever played. In pen n paper RPG's, I never considered "winning" even an option (granted, there's a reason I gravitated to GM'ing). To me, leaderboards are only acceptable if I can voluntarily remove myself from them. Scorecards, much the same. Steam profiles are disabled as far as I can go. When systems won't let me opt out and I still want to play them, I usually have fun dramatically distorting them with garbage-in-garbage out manipulation.

Even if i didn't distort them, these kinds of "competitions" are unfair to the actual competitors if it includes people that aren't at all interested or measuring their success the same way you are. An opt-out / opt-in lets you get a fair assessment of where you stand among all other participants, not wondering whether you really WERE the best or just the only one that cared to focus on the score.

Redlynne
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Rankings belong in PvP, not

Rankings belong in PvP, not in PvE.
Ranking meters make some sense if you're interested in getting performance metrics for a Raid type situation, perhaps, but only if you're trying to compete with everyone who's coming along with you (ie. a SMALL group of people, as opposed to a Zone of them).

CoH actually HAD a Rankings system in place for PvE. It was those stupid City Terminals with the spinny parts on top that NOBODY every paid any attention to on street corners. Totally wasted feature, because no one cared enough to look at them.


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chase
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Rankings belong in PvP, not in PvE.

I can just imagine what my PvP ranking would have been in CoH. When in the zone play, if there was lopsided representation between factions, I'd switch to the underdog's side... even if things were so bad that my inclusion didn't change the chances of winning at all. I cared more about sustaining the play, since I'd seen one side drive the ohter side completely out of the zone before, TOTALLY killing any action. I'd do my best to make my characters as difficult as possible to take down, but when you're one against five, you realistically don't expect to "win" very often. My win-to-lose ration was probably 1 to 100 thanks to those.

If I actually cared about ranking, I probably wouldn't have risked ruining it that way.

Mendicant
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Rankings belong in PvP, not in PvE.
Ranking meters make some sense if you're interested in getting performance metrics for a Raid type situation, perhaps, but only if you're trying to compete with everyone who's coming along with you (ie. a SMALL group of people, as opposed to a Zone of them).
CoH actually HAD a Rankings system in place for PvE. It was those stupid City Terminals with the spinny parts on top that NOBODY every paid any attention to on street corners. Totally wasted feature, because no one cared enough to look at them.

Didn't they stop updating the data on those before Issue 1 was even out? I remember something about them being broken, but no one cared enough to look at them, much less update them.

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Mendicant wrote:
Mendicant wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
Rankings belong in PvP, not in PvE.
Ranking meters make some sense if you're interested in getting performance metrics for a Raid type situation, perhaps, but only if you're trying to compete with everyone who's coming along with you (ie. a SMALL group of people, as opposed to a Zone of them).
CoH actually HAD a Rankings system in place for PvE. It was those stupid City Terminals with the spinny parts on top that NOBODY every paid any attention to on street corners. Totally wasted feature, because no one cared enough to look at them.

Didn't they stop updating the data on those before Issue 1 was even out? I remember something about them being broken, but no one cared enough to look at them, much less update them.

They were working during the EU release period. Not sure as to *when* they stopped though.

I only remember this, because for a short period of time, I was top of healing for the week...

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Scott Jackson
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I could see having a couple

I could see having a couple of stats on task forces and similar content that the team leader can activate (as was done in CoH), including # of deaths and time. Those features were quite popular on many teams, sometimes prompting fun "TF races" as several teams competed for bragging rights. Anything tracked at a personal level in PvE should be completely optional, in my opinion, and I'm not sure it's worth the development effort to save that data or display it to the player/others.

JayBezz
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Well I'm used to coming in

Well I'm used to coming in last place (because I don't deal much damage) but I still welcome the idea to see stats and efficacy of builds (even if it's just in your team). Many games allow you to read combat logs (usually in the chat window.. UGH). But I want to see players who are good at what they do. I also want to see players who are dead weight or constantly stealth AFK or XP leechers.

I know the kind of player I want to team with, they (seemingly unlike the persons here) are power gamers. I guess if you're not a power gamer the thought of one seems daunting but they are some of the most supportive, consistent customer base and giving them tools to build a community outside the PvP arena has merit to me.

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GH
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The City Terminals worked

The City Terminals worked well until.. honestly I forget when they stopped but they worked until they didn't which was really odd.
I'm sure there was a most excellent reason for it like someone just couldn't be arsed fixing some broken metrics code but still..

There isn't any need to opt-out of being competitive, with a large enough playerbase - and CoX had a big enough one.. there would be enough people interested in killing x baddies, healing x points, destroying x objects in a zone for it not to matter to you.

If Spaaazzor-X wants (or accidentally happens) to kill the most mobs in Kings Row one week, then the City Terminal could show that as a fact. What you do with that fact is up to you. It's not a top 10, not a bottom 10, just news.

Neverwinter offers things like "most damage done" "most healing" after a dungeon. Those facts are quite exclusive - the healer isn't likely (altho it has happened) to have done the most dps and besides which 30 seconds later it doesn't matter cos you're in a new team doing a new thing.

Redlynne wrote:

It was those stupid City Terminals with the spinny parts on top that NOBODY every paid any attention to on street corners. Totally wasted feature, because no one cared enough to look at them.

Please indicate on this anatomically correct superhero model where the bad terminal touched you

If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev

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I actually brought up the

I actually brought up the City Terminals once with Zwillinger (Andy Belford) in person at one of the Player Summits. His reaction was ... quite interesting.

You know how a man sighs when he's getting ready to tell you that something is hopelessly broken and will NEVER get fixed? Yeah, I heard that sound come out of him before he even said a word.

Zwillinger then proceeded to explain that the City Terminals had SEEMED like a good idea when they were conceived and conceptualized. In actual practice, they were INCREDIBLE RESOURCE HOGS that had to scour the game's databases and mine its record systems in order to assemble data that almost no one was using. The "load" that these things placed on their server resources was just stupidly high for the limited value of the service. So they cut it off ... and no one ever really missed it. It became Abandonware, and no one really noticed.


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JayBezz
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I actually brought up the City Terminals once with Zwillinger (Andy Belford) in person at one of the Player Summits. His reaction was ... quite interesting.
You know how a man sighs when he's getting ready to tell you that something is hopelessly broken and will NEVER get fixed? Yeah, I heard that sound come out of him before he even said a word.
Zwillinger then proceeded to explain that the City Terminals had SEEMED like a good idea when they were conceived and conceptualized. In actual practice, they were INCREDIBLE RESOURCE HOGS that had to scour the game's databases and mine its record systems in order to assemble data that almost no one was using. The "load" that these things placed on their server resources was just stupidly high for the limited value of the service. So they cut it off ... and no one ever really missed it. It became Abandonware, and no one really noticed.

To be fair, CoX had a knack for not showing actual numbers. So their engine was built around the "hide the numbers" premise .. I think games have progressed beyond that premise and databases with this information readily available and archived (many games can tell you the amount of damage your character's dealt over the entire LIFETIME of the character because the character metadata lies on its own server). The idea that you can't run simple batch reports of this data in a real-time environment because of server resources tells me their servers were never set up to today's standards.

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hope there would be an opt

hope there would be an opt out feature.

Somedays I don't mind competition, most days competition is no fun. Enough of that in real life mutual (sports) and one sided competition (people trying to compete to see who have the best or fastest car light to light and I don't give a crap about racing their lawnmower sound alike Honda even though I know I could smoke him. Too grown for that crap.)

Like in game, in COX I don't think I even bothered even looking at those kiosks even when they were working .I didn't care. One teams I don't care who do the most damage or who healed the most or who healed the least. Did everyone do something even if it's one point of damage or face plant every two seconds? Ok, we all good then we all did it.

But for those that would enjoy it, eh why not put something like that in the game if it's feasible.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

To be fair, CoX had a knack for not showing actual numbers. So their engine was built around the "hide the numbers" premise.

Yeah, the CoH devs labored under the impression that showing people lots of numbers would intimidate and confuse them. It took years of players going hog wild on numbers (I'm sure WoW was a particular indicator) before they were finally willing to admit that the players can handle seeing numbers.

- - - - -
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Redlynne
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Well ... that and Arcanaville

Well ... that and Arcanaville rubbing their noses in it until they bled that they were "doing it wrong" ...


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HarvesterOfEyes
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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

JayBezz wrote:
To be fair, CoX had a knack for not showing actual numbers. So their engine was built around the "hide the numbers" premise.
Yeah, the CoH devs labored under the impression that showing people lots of numbers would intimidate and confuse them. It took years of players going hog wild on numbers (I'm sure WoW was a particular indicator) before they were finally willing to admit that the players can handle seeing numbers.

Jack Emmert didn't understand numbers, so us mere mortals were supposed to be innumerate as well.

Get yourself right; the world has enough problems.

chase
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HarvesterOfEyes wrote:
HarvesterOfEyes wrote:

Darth Fez wrote:
JayBezz wrote:
To be fair, CoX had a knack for not showing actual numbers. So their engine was built around the "hide the numbers" premise.

Yeah, the CoH devs labored under the impression that showing people lots of numbers would intimidate and confuse them. It took years of players going hog wild on numbers (I'm sure WoW was a particular indicator) before they were finally willing to admit that the players can handle seeing numbers.

Jack Emmert didn't understand numbers, so us mere mortals were supposed to be innumerate as well.

It was actually a trend that was discussed among a lot of game systems at the time. Just like many games experimented wiith HUD like status and went for graphical cues to your character's health, the idea was that numeric and "status bar" UI's were artifacts of an older time.

The rationale behind "no numbers" was an effort to get away from spreadsheet play and emphasize the play. There are many pen-n-paper games that use such low-numeric metrics and in those situations, they do tend to shift the focus away from numeric min-maxing. Knowing you did "light" "medium" "heavy" "extreme" damage was supposed to be sufficient... but because we knew there were numbers at play behind these metrics, and not all "medium" damage attacks were the same, it became a deceptive element rather than a constructive one.

CoH had many elements that really did complicate the way numbers played-- things like enhancements degrading as you level, and because of this, they really did want to just "keep it simple" for the user by treating a truly-numbers-heavy system as one of those "numbers-lite" RPG's. You were supposed to accept that green-numbered enhancements were better than yellow ones and red ones were bad, but knowing HOW bad these differences were wasn't clear. If my attack did medium damage before, and i add a damage enhancement, I'd expect something "more than medium" I'd expect all medium to be equal, because otherwise, I'd want to be able to see the damn numbers to see how close my "medium" attack is to reaching "high." This hybrid, more than anything, necessitated real number metrics.

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I am very cox-centric so if

I am very cox-centric so if this isn't all about *my*game, then apologies BUT..

I wanted those numbers. Not the only one either. Maybe we were a minority. Who knows... but..
For me it was important that I did 25 damage.
Pre-ED.
Post-ED it was important that I did 22 damage -3tohit debuff.
And it was also important that I could do -23 tohit debuff and that THAT was worth more than +25 aoe HP.

And moreover I'd argue that if YOU (the game) *thinks* it's better for me *the player* to NOT know stuff then we're going to have a problem.

I'd separate the play and the spreadsheet play fairly firmly. When I was playing, I just ran in pressing fire. When I wasn't playing I was figuring out what powersets and what enhancements would make that work. In short, I was playing in both modes but exclusively in terms of time. At work- working the numbers, outside of work, killing skuls.

If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev

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And people complained about

And people complained about Eve Online being spreadsheets in space....

Considering that most of the spreadsheet work happened *out* of the game, and you then used that information inside the game (particularly the market area and ship fitting, although I know that people used spreadsheets for PI and manufacturing)

Bonus for Eve though... ship fittings were *not* fixed to the ship that you fitted them to... which was very handy as you needed to occasionally change fittings according to mission that you were running.

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2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
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