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Come crawling faster....

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Von Krieger
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Come crawling faster....

So, apparently somewhere in between Kickstarter thingies getting typed up and forum creation, the Pets/ primary seems to have a bit of a split personality.

The forums call it the Operator, and the kickstarter update calls it the Master.

Which is it? I am confused. o.O

BIZZARO MEDIA FOLLOWER

Lord Nightmare
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The official designation for

The official designation for all ATs is a WIP.. though I do like The Master more than The Operator... Maybe the names will be different on Redside than on Blueside? Hope so.. "Master" sounds so much more sinister.

hehe..

hehehe..

hehehehehe..

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! *thunder crack!*

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain

notears
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well... here's hoping we get

well... here's hoping we get them at launch....

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

Benchpresser
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I'm curious what level

I'm curious what level stretch goal they are... I read that blog with a mixture of crazy excitement and sadness.. every combo I want to try is a "stretch goal" :(

Thunder Glove
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I like the Master better, too

I like the Master better, too.

(Changing the names so drastically always seemed a little silly to me, though. Words like "scrapper", "blaster", and "mastermind" were in use long before CoH used them. NCSoft trying to sue another game for having classes with the same names would be like Blizzard trying to sue every MMO with classes called "warrior" or "rogue". Even Marvel Avengers Alliance has classes called Scrapper and Blaster)

Baalumbral
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Its probably for the best to

Its probably for the best to err on the side of caution with this one, especially with NCSoft having a proven history of... illogical behaviour.

They're just labels, if I re-roll some of my favorite characters from CoH in CoT I don't care if they're called Scrappers of Gladiators, I'll care about the gameplay.

Gangrel
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Baalumbral wrote:
Baalumbral wrote:

Its probably for the best to err on the side of caution with this one, especially with NCSoft having a proven history of... illogical behaviour.

Actually, in the realms of suing other companies, they *haven't* been all that bad to be fair.

About the worst that I can remember was up against the developers of TERA (which NCsoft WON the initial case of being victims of theft). They fail in the subsequent court case of trying to get the game shut down.

more details here

/derail

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Zombie Man
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Later convention trumps

Later convention trumps earlier. Masters*.

*which may be trumped by a later convention without warning

Former Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator

Gauntlet
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I keep seeing "delayed" and

I keep seeing "delayed" and "not at launch" in these topics. You guys are really worrying me, here. There is not any other Class i want to try before Master/Operator. Every other game already has all those classes, just by different names. No one has a class with 6 powerful pets and no C.O.'s robo-toys don't count. Don't tease me like this guys.

Yeah, that sounds like a Jedi. Massacre a whole room full of people, then stand around apologizing for it. - Swtor NPC

Lord Nightmare
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Gauntlet.. you don't need to

Gauntlet.. you don't need to post the SAME thing on every topic in the Master Subforum.

Look. it's going to be delayed because unlike all the other classes it takes time to actually make sure the pet AI works and to give us the customization options for our pets. The same goes for many other classes that won't be available at launch. We're not teasing you, we're giving hard facts. As for the "Run In Bug" you've mentioned in another topic, I don't know how they're going to handle that but I'm hoping you'll be able to issue orders like "Hold" and "Advance" and such for individual pets. If not, oh well.

As for "releasing without Master is the same as releasing an incomplete game" that you mentioned.. that's a very childish way to think of it. All I can say is either get friends to pledge a LOT of money so we hit the 1 Million mark and can have it at launch, or roll another class until they're released. Everything takes time, dude.

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain

Gauntlet
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It'll be what it'll be. But I

It'll be what it'll be. But I dont think we (got a mouse in yer pocket?) know WHAT is going to be released yet. I just wanted to put out there that at least one customer is looking forward to this class and will be saddened by its delay for whatever reason. Don't get yer shorts in a twist. Also i posted in each thread cause it keeps getting mentioned in each thread.

As for the Run-In Bug, it didnt MATTER what commands you gave the pets they ran up and hugged the enemies anyway. Thus the reason for calling it a bug. But it DID kill the popularity of the class, and the simple fix would have to keep both sets of the AI data and give the original non run-in AI (made my Bruiser slang rocks all day) to the ranged pets, and the new Run-In Bug AI to the melee pets. Was giving an example of a problem and a possible fix for it.

I had suggested this on their forums also but at that point the Devs were so overwhelmed by the BALANCE PVP whining that they had all but stopped listening to the forums.
So I just wanted to get my thoughts in there early.

Yeah, that sounds like a Jedi. Massacre a whole room full of people, then stand around apologizing for it. - Swtor NPC

Godling
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I know this is getting pushed

I know this is getting pushed back, but I want the devs to know we want our Masterminds/operators/master.
Gauntlet just want the same thing that the devs never forget.

Gorgon
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Gauntlet wrote:
Gauntlet wrote:

As for the Run-In Bug, it didnt MATTER what commands you gave the pets they ran up and hugged the enemies anyway. Thus the reason for calling it a bug. But it DID kill the popularity of the class, and the simple fix would have to keep both sets of the AI data and give the original non run-in AI (made my Bruiser slang rocks all day) to the ranged pets, and the new Run-In Bug AI to the melee pets. Was giving an example of a problem and a possible fix for it.

They knew how to fix it -- they deliberately chose not to. They wanted to force your shooting pets to be more in danger of getting killed -- you running around with a "keep-away ranged-only" posse meant the monsters had to always run after them, which slowed the rate at which they could damage the pets, and thus kill you. So in runs your bots to punch the thing, and get punched back...hard...in return.

Quote:

I had suggested this on their forums also but at that point the Devs were so overwhelmed by the BALANCE PVP whining that they had all but stopped listening to the forums.
So I just wanted to get my thoughts in there early.

Letting the PvP tail wag the dog is always a problem in MMORPGs.

The real issue centers around Taunt. It's a fake power that does not exist in reality. In a battle, you fight things according to a definite strategy, and are an idiot for not doing so. Disrupt alpha, then go after healers/defenders, then blasters, then scrappers.

Always, always ignore the low-damage tanks. They are like islands in the Pacific during WWII -- you can just sail around them then come back later and take them out at your leisure after they are cut off.

And that's how PvP differs -- Nobody in their right mind bothers with a low-DPS pseudo-melee. CoH even tried to make them relevant in PvP by forcing taunts to re-direct opponent's attention to the tank, against any kind of actual battle strategy one would normally have.

PvE powers and PvP play just don't mix well because humans are not idiot 20-IQ AIs. They can't even put in decent AI because then it would be too hard.

Imagine a group of mobs that instantly ran away, notifying other mobs, who then all came and ganged up on you...as would happen if your opponents were humans. Imagine the logical, fast-moving, PvP hit-and-run styles that always evolve in PvP zones because it works, being adopted by PvE AI.

If those doubled-up groups then came back and went all after the healer, then the defender, then the scrapper, then the low-DPS tank, ignoring the taunts because all humans ignore taunts and tanks.

You'd be slaughtered in PvE. PvE requires abysmal AI. Even "hard" zones (hazard, trial), are more difficult only because the monsters hit harder and are giant bags of HP. Not because they are better AI.

__________________

The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.

Izzy
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Gorgon wrote:
Gorgon wrote:

The real issue centers around Taunt. It's a fake power that does not exist in reality.

Ahh.. seems you didnt get that in CoH/CoV Controllers weren't the ONLY ones capable of controlling groups (mind control) to Control Enemy groups by projecting rage/anger and whatever else might set off the enemy group. If you want to call the Taunt power something more meaningful that's fine. ;)

Gorgon
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My resistance to taunt in

My resistance to taunt in MMORPGs is for the vast majority of 'em, it turned melee into wimpy offense. Fear of a tough character also putting out copious amounts of damage broke things. The tougher you were, the less damage you did, with the squishiest doing the most damage.

Tank, then thief/monk, then caster. It saddened me as a design, so by banning taunt, you'd be forced to abandon it, and thus could have high-damage melee with everyone relying on (true) controllers. I've always wanted to consider tanks as controllers; my gripe was their existence erased offensively powerful melee.

I'll never forget someone's complaint on EQ's forums regarding a monk: "I will never play a guy with a sword in any game where an unarmed man can out-damage me."

CoH broke this model -- it preserved the tank (but IMO purely for anachronistic reasons) and gave offensively powerful melee anyway. High-DPS melee existed, irrespective of a tank.

The philosophy way back when in EverQuest was even worse -- not only were all melee wimpy offensively (and offensively so!) compared to casters, soloing rare singletons was difficult for most classes, and a team of six was intended to take on one, perhaps two at a time of your level.

CoH also broke that where you took on larger groups. I was thrilled to see EQ's worldview smashed on the ground.

It had its nadir in Star Wars Galaxies, where your little team of 6, five people with laser blasters and one with a flamethrower, surrounded a dog in the grasslands and took 30 seconds to kill it. Woo hoo. Feelin' powerful now!

__________________

The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.