Combat System - The Good vs. The Bad

32 posts / 0 new
Last post
CoriSparks
CoriSparks's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 4 days ago
Joined: 11/26/2015 - 12:46
Combat System - The Good vs. The Bad

So I, like many others, have been spending a decent amount of time playing the latest MMORPG craze to make its way to the west, Blade and Soul, and I've been having quite a bit of fun with it. Its combat system is one of the best in any MMO I've played so far, and that's saying a lot.

Recently, though, I managed to catch a Youtube clip of the old Spider-Man 90's cartoon (MAN, that was a good show...), and found myself craving for some superhero action. Logically, I went with the only one I still had on my hard drive, Champions, and... Well, what you'd probably expect to happen... Happened.

After experiencing what is, at least in my opinion, a really good combat system like B&S's, and then suddenly going back to what Champions has was quite jarring. It felt more hollow, floaty and mindless than ever, like everything was just made of paper, like everyone was just flailing and tossing things at each other until someone finally collapsed.

This, of course, reminds me of just how important it is that the combat system in an MMO is VERY important. Champions' gameplay and combat seems more like it was tacked on after the character creator was made just to justify its existence. Blade and Soul, however, seems to be the exact opposite.

Of course, many people compare TERA and Blade and Soul, and often ask what makes one better than the other. I haven't played TERA much, so I can't give that game a fair comparison or judgement, but aspects other than the combat were what turned me off from it, so I'll just leave it be.

I trust that everyone working on CoT knows what they're doing, so I'm not trying to override anyone's work here. I don't claim to be an expert on designing combat systems, but I do know what I like to play and what I get bored with, and that being the case, I have a few suggestions.

First of all, effects, animations and sounds are very important to the experience. There are far too many MMOs I've played where combat loses its excitement factor quickly because attacks make these boring sound effects or have weak or lackluster animations, and enemies barely react to them. Heck, sometimes they don't react at all and the only thing that lets you know they hit are the enemy flashing a bit or a number flying out over the enemy's head. This is mainly what bothered me about GW2's system. I wanted to wield a hammer because I wanted to smash stuff, but the sound effects didn't sound very "smashy", and some of the animations seemed a little too nimble and light to give the experience that I usually come to expect when I'm using a hammer in a game like that. I tried using the elementalist to capture the feeling of hurling superpowers at enemies, but so far I didn't like anything about the animations for that class (One of the staff types mostly uses animations of your character just raising the staff into the air when attacks hit. Not raising it and then pointing at the enemy, just repeatedly thrusting it at the sky in a very awkward-looking way)

CoT is of course going to be a superhero MMO, and in superhero settings, everything about fighting is almost always exaggerated. It's part of what makes the genre what it is. So please don't be affraid to water down effects to try to make it seem more "realistic". Misplaced realism is what's really plaguing the game industry as a whole already. We play this game because we want to throw punches that make a loud, heavy smashing sound, give off some sort of burst of a particle effect and send our enemies flying a few feet. When we fire off energy blasts, they shouldn't always be comparatively thin streams that make little high-pitched rings or "fwoosh" sounds (Seriously, WTH, Champs Online?), but there should be a few big, intense bursts of energy or thick, surging blasts that sound like little energy explosions.

Take the loud, messy and in-your-face effects that CoH's energy blast had for example, where every single time a blast hit, it exploded into a huge shockwave on the enemy's character model whether it was a low-level attack or a high-level one. (That reminds me... Shockwaves. That's what every game with energy blast powers needs, and I'm not talking about those tiny ones that are never any bigger than your character that Champs Online uses.)

But enough about the visual appeal; another very important factor is the actual combat system itself, how it functions, how it all balances out under the hood. Is it skill based, where a person of lower level could, with effort, beat a higher-level opponent if they play smart enough, or is it just numbers based, where everything is little more than dice rolls swayed in different directions by stats that alter probabilities? Is it guaranteed that your gear and bonuses will definitely ensure your victory, or will they be just as good as the player behind the screen? Will a PvP duel between two characters merely be about how those characters are built instead of how well that player knows how to play the game?

In an ideal scenario, skill should play a major role. There should be a degree of balance between players of the same level, regardless of whether they're ranged or melee fighters.

There's probably more I could think of, but it's getting late. I'm not asking you to copy B&S's combat system by any means (in fact, there are a few things about it even I don't like), but one thing I am trying to advise is not taking inspiration for your combat system from the other two superhero games out there... They're not very well-liked around these parts for a reason.

Thank you!

Izzy
Izzy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 11:09
as long as a few of my

as long as a few of my attack animations give off the Good Feelz similar to this:

;)

Grognard_87
Grognard_87's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: 01/27/2016 - 08:25
One thing I miss from CoH

One thing I miss from CoH that I've yet to see in another MMO is when you level. In that game when you leveled there was an EXPLOSION accompanied by HP being refilled (or rezing when down), added temp buffs and you felt bloody god-like whenever you dinged in that game.

Compare that to my current MMO fixation, Swtor and it barely get's a notice in the chat and there's no immediate and obvious sign in-game that you leveled and it's quite bland... Still enjoy the game, but it's pretty underwhelming when no one notices you leveled.

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 23 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
As a spiritual successor to

As a spiritual successor to City of Heroes/Villains, I would hope that City of Titans uses similar combat in the sense that it's not a first person shooter first with a storyline, but rather an MMORPG first with some good combat mechanics, designed primarily for enjoyable PVE play.

That said, I would personally not want what most call "twitch based combat" meaning that type of system which emphasizes having faster reflexes, better aim, a faster internet connection, better manual dexterity with a game controller, etc. That's not what CoH was and that's not what I would want or expect CoT to be, as a spiritual successor.

From what the OP wrote, it sounds to me like PVP and twich-based combat are what the OP would prefer. If so please put me down as a vote for the tab to target, randomized hitting and missing type game that the OP seems to dislike. That's the way CoX worked.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Grognard_87
Grognard_87's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: 01/27/2016 - 08:25
I quite agree. I am not a fan

I quite agree. I am not a fan of the gameplay which turned me off from Champions Online along with several other things that didn't scratch the CoX itch and just frustrait me.

I love the tab-targeting and one thing I REALLY enjoyed, but I've yet to see in another MMO is reading up the info on mobs. I loved learning the history of the snake-creatures in the rogue islands, the Clockwork in CoH, The Rikit and many, MANY other groups. I always loved learning on all these different aliens and abberations or other beings.

CoriSparks
CoriSparks's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 4 days ago
Joined: 11/26/2015 - 12:46
I never said I was

I never said I was specifically recommending an action combat system. Sure, I slightly prefer action combat most of the time, but seeing as this will be a successor to CoH the tab-targeting makes more sense. I only ask that the combat system, tab-targeting or not, be well-made and not sloppy or weak. Attacks should look, sound and feel like there's weight behind them, animations for things like fire shouldn't flow slowly or look all thin and papery. The actual combat should at least feel like there should be some sort of element of skill to it, even if it is tab-targeting.

One thing GW2 did right, I will say, is the ability to do dodge-rolls by double-tapping a directional key. That game still has tab-targeting and it has that, so why shouldn't CoT?

Interdictor
Interdictor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 18 hours 22 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/22/2013 - 05:26
CoriSparks wrote: I never
CoriSparks wrote:

I never said I was specifically recommending an action combat system. Sure, I slightly prefer action combat most of the time, but seeing as this will be a successor to CoH the tab-targeting makes more sense. I only ask that the combat system, tab-targeting or not, be well-made and not sloppy or weak. Attacks should look, sound and feel like there's weight behind them, animations for things like fire shouldn't flow slowly or look all thin and papery.

I can agree with this - I am reminded of the difference between Super Strength in Champions Online and CoH. CO felt really weak and "swishy", while the animations for CoH made the combat feel powerful and weighty.

Quote:

One thing GW2 did right, I will say, is the ability to do dodge-rolls by double-tapping a directional key. That game still has tab-targeting and it has that, so why shouldn't CoT?

Rare as they were, even CoH had area attacks that you could dodge. Even the "telegraphed attacks" that some enemies have in games like Neverwninter might not be too bad - of course it all depends on the feel of combat in COT and if it all works.

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 16 min 45 sec ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
CoriSparks wrote: One thing
CoriSparks wrote:

One thing GW2 did right, I will say, is the ability to do dodge-rolls by double-tapping a directional key. That game still has tab-targeting and it has that, so why shouldn't CoT?

From the very beginning the design team made a commitment to no twitch-based combat mechanics. Double-tapping directional keys' pressing the "dodge button" and so forth are not going to be part of the standard combat experience. Telegraphed attacks providing adequate notification to the player with suitable time for even basic movement to avoid may be part of unique encounters, but not something experienced in general spawns.

Just like the character's ability to accurately hit their target is dependent on the accuracy of the power, the ability to avoid being hit is based on any evasive powers the opposing character may have. Neither action is necessarily dependent upon the player's ability to manually target it manually dodge attacks.

However, we do intend to have more freedom of movement during combat (depending on testing) where not all attacks force rooting. Which means when area attacks do occur, it may be possible for players to take action to avoid them. Doing so is would be more of a tactical decision based on the build and playstyle rather than a necessity.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
Izzy
Izzy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 11:09
Interdictor wrote: Quote: One
Interdictor wrote:

Quote: One thing GW2 did right, I will say, is the ability to do dodge-rolls by double-tapping a directional key. That game still has tab-targeting and it has that, so why shouldn't CoT?Rare as they were, even CoH had area attacks that you could dodge. Even the "telegraphed attacks" that some enemies have in games like Neverwninter might not be too bad - of course it all depends on the feel of combat in COT and if it all works.

As long as its not part of the early levels, as double tapping at the right time to avoid telegraphed attacks, is considered a Twitch mechanic, and the Telegraph can last Long enough for grandparents and young children to avoid... then its ok. How long is long enough? MWM will have to playtest it. :D

And try to limit its inclusion to high level engagements, like CoH/V Incarnates stuff, where we wont see too many grandparents and young children participating as much.

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 23 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
I'm not against having "root

I'm not against having "root to execute attack animation" as the norm, but then have some small number of powers that do not require rooting, where such makes sense. For example, If you want to make a "jump kick" attack whereby you leap forward at the target and try to do a well-timed flying kick when you get there, I could see that as an animation that physically displaces the avatar TOWARDS the target, whether or not you actually land the kick at the end.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 16 min 45 sec ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
That would be a lunge attack.

That would be a lunge attack. Those are placed judiciously in power sets, but will be available in a Tertiary set for combat mobility.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 23 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
Cool. I want to do that,

Cool. I want to do that, then have the sound effect for it be Miss Piggy going "Hiiiiii-YA!"

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 20 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
As a Tanker, I preferred

As a Tanker, I preferred being able to attack AND move, because my 'job' was to redirect enemy attacks away from my team. I need to be able to punch and duck and move, to draw the enemy into terrain that is more advantageous for me and my team. Pull them into a dark alley where I can mug them, without being seen by patrols, or other guards. Vault over their heads and put my back to a wall, so they can't surround me, all turn to face me, and don't see the sniper, taking position to kill them all.

When I've played Ranged/Blaster type characters, I've always appreciated being able to attack While moving (at a slow run), both for closing attacks, leading line-of-sight around corners (to tighten enemy clusters for AoEs), and to 'strafe-kite' in tight circles and avoid 'rushing' attacks by enemies. That means that I want to be able to side-step (quickly) up a ramp, while dropping traps, tossing bombs, and yes, Shooting at the opponents on the ramps below.

I understand the point of rooted Nukes and super-powerful attacks. If we could cast those any time we liked... why would we use anything else? But I prefer that most attacks in the 'regular attack chain' not affect, or be affected by, movement.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 23 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
If you can get the badguys to

If you can get the badguys to attack you (or the heroes to chase you), you can kite them around anywhere you want. That doesn't require being able to fire off attacks on the move, per se. Are attacks while moving BETTER? Yes, I'd say they're better in many ways. They're also, apparently, harder to code for when you consider all the implications they bring with them. For these reasons (coding AND power level in game) I'm good with making rooted the norm for most "regular" attacks and then have "non-rooted" as a special bonus property that only some specific powers get, in order for them to work properly, or as an added benefit to make a power more attractive here and there. In other words, what Tannim said, judicious use of non-rooted powers where they can fit it in.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 44 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Recommendation.For

Recommendation.

For "telegraphed" Volume of Effect attacks that announce they are coming, it would be better for them to function on a "ramp up" system similar to a stacking Damage over Time sort of deal, rather than just being a big spike "wallop" that smacks you instantly for being in the wrong place. That way, you're punished (more) for STAYING in the danger zone a lot more than you are for being CAUGHT (however briefly) in the danger zone. That way, the longer you stay, the stronger the "burn" of not playing smart.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Voldine
Voldine's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 3 months ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 10:57
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Recommendation.For "telegraphed" Volume of Effect attacks that announce they are coming, it would be better for them to function on a "ramp up" system similar to a stacking Damage over Time sort of deal, rather than just being a big spike "wallop" that smacks you instantly for being in the wrong place. That way, you're punished (more) for STAYING in the danger zone a lot more than you are for being CAUGHT (however briefly) in the danger zone. That way, the longer you stay, the stronger the "burn" of not playing smart.

I LIKE that idea! If only Apex part 2 had worked that way. It would help a LOT with lag spikes too so that you might take half your health in damage instead of just outright dying from a 20k damage sword strapped to a bomb dropping on your head.

The original Lady of Ysgard. -Virtue

Izzy
Izzy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 11:09
Voldine wrote: Redlynne
Voldine wrote:

Redlynne wrote: Recommendation.For "telegraphed" Volume of Effect attacks that announce they are coming, it would be better for them to function on a "ramp up" system similar to a stacking Damage over Time sort of deal, rather than just being a big spike "wallop" that smacks you instantly for being in the wrong place. That way, you're punished (more) for STAYING in the danger zone a lot more than you are for being CAUGHT (however briefly) in the danger zone. That way, the longer you stay, the stronger the "burn" of not playing smart.I LIKE that idea! If only Apex part 2 had worked that way. It would help a LOT with lag spikes too so that you might take half your health in damage instead of just outright dying from a 20k damage sword strapped to a bomb dropping on your head.

+1

Interdictor
Interdictor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 18 hours 22 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/22/2013 - 05:26
Voldine wrote: Redlynne
Voldine wrote:

Redlynne wrote: Recommendation.For "telegraphed" Volume of Effect attacks that announce they are coming, it would be better for them to function on a "ramp up" system similar to a stacking Damage over Time sort of deal, rather than just being a big spike "wallop" that smacks you instantly for being in the wrong place. That way, you're punished (more) for STAYING in the danger zone a lot more than you are for being CAUGHT (however briefly) in the danger zone. That way, the longer you stay, the stronger the "burn" of not playing smart.I LIKE that idea! If only Apex part 2 had worked that way. It would help a LOT with lag spikes too so that you might take half your health in damage instead of just outright dying from a 20k damage sword strapped to a bomb dropping on your head.

Depends on the nature of the attack. I mean if it is literally a bomb being dropped on your head, it makes sense to get it in one blast. With other attacks, I think a escalation in damage could be appropriate.

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 23 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
One problem that AoE DoT

One problem that AoE DoT effects (like Rain of Fire) had in CoX was that if the area effect doesn't also do a pretty hard Slow effect (-movement), then the mooks caught in the area end up getting out of it in less than a second and only take one or two ticks of damage. This was disappointing before they added the needed Slow effect to Rain of Fire, but somewhat hard to justify in terms of fluff. Why was the raining fire making you move slower? It wasn't ice or anything that normally had a slow component to it.
In cases where the AoE DoT power does not have a slow component, this causes you to try to combo it up with other powers that do slow effects or immobilize, or at least trip, etc. At that point your strategy is now "immobilize mob and burn it slowly to death" instead of just "drop the fireball and kill them instantly".
I'm not saying either approach is right or wrong, just that the powers as-designed tend to dictate the strategies. If there is no available group immobilize or something for the Rain of Fire user, and if Rain of Fire does not do a Slow effect on its own, then nobody will take it if it's designed as AoE DoT. It just get's skipped because it never does it's full damage when soloing. If it does immediate damage to all in the area then applies some lingering debuff to those who stay, then you at least get the AoE damage even if the debuff is harder to get to work, and as a Blaster, you might be justified in NOT having the best debuffs, left to your own powers. On a team though, that debuff, when applied to a mob that can survive the initial damage of the power, might work really well on, say, bosses that the team controller has managed to lock down for the time being, etc.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Izzy
Izzy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 11:09
Radiac wrote: .. before they
Radiac wrote:

.. before they added the needed Slow effect to Rain of Fire, but somewhat hard to justify in terms of fluff. Why was the raining fire making you move slower? It wasn't ice or anything that normally had a slow component to it.

I was a little baffled by that too.
I think they were Lazy and dint want to change the Rain of Fire animation Fx to show small falling fireballs hitting fleeing Foes and doing a KnockDown (or KnockUp if it was a Water Geyser from below). So instead they kept it the animations as they were and just Slowed the Foes animation speed. ;)

The falling fireball or water Geyser, would be a separate Animation Fx that's instanced depending on the HitTest for Affecting the Foe at some interval. :)

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 16 min 45 sec ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
Quote: This was disappointing
Quote:

This was disappointing before they added the needed Slow effect to Rain of Fire, but somewhat hard to justify in terms of fluff. Why was the raining fire making you move slower? It wasn't ice or anything that normally had a slow component to it.

In my own opinion, efficient mechanics, such as in the example cited to bring parity with similar types of powers trumps "fluff".
But if you need a "fluff" as in a form of logical reasoning to explain why this power could "slow you down" when it was 't "ice" -
I must ask, have you ever been in an extreme heat conditions? It can be just as exhaustive as extreme cold, making you move slower as the heat saps you dry as it were.

Or maybe the fiery rain heated the ground making it all hot and melty, mmaint it harder ti traverse, the super heated air thick and oppressive making it tougher to fly through.

Really though, the "fluff" as it is limited only to the line of thought of the reasoner. Trying to enforce the "conditoons of reality" into something like how a super power that can create an area of high heat to where it "rains fire" (which is something quite fantastical in of itself) is totally futile.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Quote: In my own opinion,
Quote:

In my own opinion, efficient mechanics, such as in the example cited to bring parity with similar types of powers trumps "fluff".

I cannot agree more with this. Especially in games that are not meant to simulate reality in extreme detail.

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 23 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
I agree that mechanics can

I agree that mechanics can trump fluff, and in the design of powers in CoT we will ikely have to supply a lot more imagination to our powers than CoX had.

But in CoX, they hit you pretty hard with "in this game, Ice does Slow as a secondary effect, Fire does added DoT, that's what to expect" then added in a Slow component to Rain of Fire afterward to make it not totally suck. It needed that, I'll agree, but I would suggest that maybe they should have reserved Rain of Fire type DoT AoE powers (with slow) to those sets whose damage types actually HAD Slow as a secondary effect anyway.

In CoX, they tried to teach you that Fire meant DoT as an add-on, and Ice meant Slow and or Immob. Then they threw that idea out the window later and just added in secondary effects to powers as-needed to make some of them less bad. It could be argued that, had they known what the playerbase's response was going to be to Rain of Fire (the non-slowwing original version), then Rain of Fire should have been scrapped from the get-go and replaced with something else entirely. Something that had DoT and didn't have (or need) Slow, to keep it consistent with the Fire theme. As it was, they went the other way and just added in slow and violated their own thematic division of secondary effects across damage types for the sake of the powers themselves. The more they could have avoided having to do that, the better, in my opinion but maybe that's just me.
They COULD have just put "stay in the area and get hurt more" type effects in sets that actually had slow and immobilize effects to combo them up with, or to make it more interesting, maybe put the one thing in the primaries and the other in the secondaries. I could see making Rain of Fire a DoT Area attack with no slow component, then forcing people to either take a secondary that gave you slow and immobilize effects to try to maximize it's usefullness (not to mention the usefullness of other area attacks, like Fireball and Fire Breath, both of which could be made better by freezing the targets in place close to each other long enough) or else abandon Rain of Fire entirely if you're not in a secondary that supports it, and use that power slot for something else.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 20 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
Fire Controllers had all of

Fire Controllers had all of the usual CC effects, though, so I didn't have any problems with the slow in Rain of Fire. Granted, I made a Corruptor specifically so that I could combine the slip/slow of Freezing Rain with slow/confuse of Rain of Fire. My only regret is that the combination still didn't 'arrest' all of the mobs caught in it with one application. Sure did Look amazing, though!

Be Well!
Fireheart

islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Quote: But in CoX, they hit
Quote:

But in CoX, they hit you pretty hard with "in this game, Ice does Slow as a secondary effect, Fire does added DoT, that's what to expect" then added in a Slow component to Rain of Fire afterward to make it not totally suck. It needed that, I'll agree, but I would suggest that maybe they should have reserved Rain of Fire type DoT AoE powers (with slow) to those sets whose damage types actually HAD Slow as a secondary effect anyway.

Well first Rain of Fire (as well as Ice storm and Burn) were not DoT powers. They were persistent AoEs that did damage as an effect in intervals. It wasn't an effect placed on a foe but instead a function of the power itself. While it was similar to a DoT effect its important to realize the distinction because once a foe left the AoE the damage effect ended immediately. Before you get hung up on the idea that fire powers were DoT and cold powers were slow...consider Ice storm at the same time as Fire Rain and see how powers do not have to be limited in that fashion.

I think the evolution of the power was first that 'Rain of Fire' and 'Burn' had no additional effects associated with it. Then the devs were made aware just how out of balance the 'Burn' power was from Fire armor and added a fear component to all powers that had a similar persistent location damage effect to correct it and to add an element of immersion (why do they stand in burning rain...why don't they get out of the way was a common complaint by players)....Burn, Rain of Fire and Ice storm were the most obvious of these affected by the change.
Of those powers Burn and Rain of Fire got the most backlash because it made the powers counter productive as damage dealing effects. Ice Storm was largely excluded as a target from the backlash and instead used as an example of proper balance as it always had a slow effect built in. Its important to remember that most of the 'slow effects' from cold powers in CoH had both a recharge debuff as well as the visibly noticeable movement debuff and it is both of those together that were the staple of cold powers.
As a way to correct what many believed was an over reaction in regards to Fire Rain the devs included a non-enhancable movement debuff to the power excluding the recharge debuff of cold powers. The devs remained firm on not making the same mistake they had made before with Burn and did not add a movement debuff to the power but instead eventually added the utility aspect of breaking immobilize to correct a long complained about gap in the Fire Armor set.
The end result of Rain of Fire was not to simply 'make it not suck' it was a process of fine tuning a power that operated differently than others in order to make it work properly.
I should say at this point that this evolution of the powers is based completely on memory. I have no 'proof' to back it up and could very well be remembering aspect incorrectly so take the entire thing as you will. Or correct mistakes I have made.

Darth Fez
Darth Fez's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 31 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/20/2013 - 07:53
Radiac wrote: But in CoX,
Radiac wrote:

But in CoX, they hit you pretty hard with "in this game, Ice does Slow as a secondary effect, Fire does added DoT, that's what to expect" then added in a Slow component to Rain of Fire afterward to make it not totally suck. It needed that, I'll agree, but I would suggest that maybe they should have reserved Rain of Fire type DoT AoE powers (with slow) to those sets whose damage types actually HAD Slow as a secondary effect anyway.

One more point to consider is that this is always a risk with games like MMOs, which develop over time. Sometimes changes need to be made that run counter to previous changes* or expectations. In such cases it's important to remember that the devs are probably equally unhappy about that necessity but, as Tannim pointed out, mechanics need to take center stage.



* WoW players, in particular, can sing songs about changes made to their classes or mechanics in one expansion being reverted in the next, or certain effects being added or removed due to abilities being too efficient, too inefficient, having unanticipated interactions with other abilities, etc. Sometimes these could fundamentally change the play style of classes or builds.

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

Support trap clowns for CoT!

islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Quote: One more point to
Quote:

One more point to consider is that this is always a risk with games like MMOs, which develop over time. Sometimes changes need to be made that run counter to previous changes* or expectations. In such cases it's important to remember that the devs are probably equally unhappy about that necessity but, as Tannim pointed out, mechanics need to take center stage.

Very true....a succinct way to sum up my (too) long post.
Another thing to consider is that we as players usually only see the current live build of the game so its difficult to see the necessity of some changes based on future mechanics and features that we are not aware of....that difficulty persists even when the new features/mechanics become live.

Voldine
Voldine's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 3 months ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 10:57
Interdictor wrote: Voldine
Interdictor wrote:

Depends on the nature of the attack. I mean if it is literally a bomb being dropped on your head, it makes sense to get it in one blast. With other attacks, I think a escalation in damage could be appropriate.

Incendiary bomb. Smaller spike damage from the explosion, followed by a DoT patch on the ground in an area.

It took me two seconds after reading your complaint about the very idea of changing that to come up with a simple and palatable way to work it.

The original Lady of Ysgard. -Virtue

blacke4dawn
blacke4dawn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 52 min ago
Joined: 03/28/2015 - 03:02
Voldine wrote: Interdictor
Voldine wrote:

Interdictor wrote: Depends on the nature of the attack. I mean if it is literally a bomb being dropped on your head, it makes sense to get it in one blast. With other attacks, I think a escalation in damage could be appropriate.Incendiary bomb. Smaller spike damage from the explosion, followed by a DoT patch on the ground in an area.It took me two seconds after reading your complaint about the very idea of changing that to come up with a simple and palatable way to work it.

So.... the bad guys can only build incendiary bombs? No C4, anfo or similar?

Personally I didn't read the "complaint" as saying that it shouldn't be done but rather that you shouldn't pigeonhole every such attack to a smaller set of possibilities, that is only the ones that produce a DoT as whole or part of the attack.

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 23 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
Come to think of it, Rain of

Come to think of it, Rain of Fire would have been a good power for my Rad/Rad defender to have as an attack in his secondary set. Radiation (the primary) had EM Pulse, Choking Cloud, and Lingering Radiation, all of which were good enough to take in their own right, and then if you added in Rain of Fire, even WITH the fear of damage effect and without the slow, it would probably have been a build that could have used THAT Rain of Fire. *sigh* I wanna play CoH again now...

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 44 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Radiac wrote: One problem
Radiac wrote:

One problem that AoE DoT effects (like Rain of Fire) had in CoX was that if the area effect doesn't also do a pretty hard Slow effect (-movement), then the mooks caught in the area end up getting out of it in less than a second and only take one or two ticks of damage.

The (obvious?) solution to that case is to make everyone in the Volume of Effect receive their own pseudo-pet that "sticks" to them personally and animates the effect ON THEM such that they can't "escape the effect" by moving away from it. That way, they can Run but they'll only Die Tired.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Interdictor
Interdictor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 18 hours 22 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/22/2013 - 05:26
Voldine wrote: Interdictor
Voldine wrote:

Interdictor wrote: Depends on the nature of the attack. I mean if it is literally a bomb being dropped on your head, it makes sense to get it in one blast. With other attacks, I think a escalation in damage could be appropriate.Incendiary bomb. Smaller spike damage from the explosion, followed by a DoT patch on the ground in an area.It took me two seconds after reading your complaint about the very idea of changing that to come up with a simple and palatable way to work it.

Not every bomb contains napalm, thermite, phosphorus, etc. That took me less than two seconds to come up with ;^p.

And my reply wasn't a "complaint". It was a rebuttal.