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Hello,
I was wondering how much freedom of movement would be allowed whilst in combat.
Will we be permanently rooted until combat has ended? Will activation of powers root the player for the duration of the animation? Will there be some actions that root the player and others that can be used while moving?
Thanks
Going by the CoH example, the only effect on Movement would be the nerfing of 'extraordinary Movement Powers', like Super Speed and Super Jump. Basic moment powers like Sprint and Combat Jumping and Hover, as well as whatever base movement speed the character had, was untouched.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Cool.
I'd be in support of rooting many abilities e.g. high damage charge up energy beams, for reasons of balance as well as allowing complex animations to play out properly, however not allowing a character to move about during combat and relocate would suck.
I only ask because it appears Valiance Online has decided to root players during combat, which sounds pretty bad if that is literally the case.
I thought that Valiance Online only rooted you *during* an attack (like CoX did). And that once the attack animation had finished, you were then free to move again....
I'm hoping what you said is actually what it means.
A recent status update on their facebook has me a little worried. However, i could be misinterpreting what has been said.
Well some of CoX powers could be used mid air and not mess em up.
I used to run around on my Fire/Elec Blaster throwing Fireballs and Fire Blasts while jumping so I was still moving while shooting.
Now that I say it like that though it sounds like it may not have been intended to be possible to shoot midair. XD
20041004-20120910
Reading that, I get the impression more of the "CoX version" of combat instead of the *total* lack of combat movement.
Whilst it was indeed possible to do it, it was "pseudo breaking" the game engine when you did it. I know that if your timing was off you rooted yourself or "failed to attack".
Nothing made me sadder than being rooted to shoot attacks. It was a major reason I left to Champions Online. It's also a huge reason I was disappointed with Valiance Online's pre-alpha
One thing Champions did wrong was not having rules for distance and movement speed. Melee powers should be mobile while sniper type powers should be rooted. Then powers that are long distance (but not sniper range) should have a large -MovementSpeed% (66%?) and medium distance powers should have a smaller -MovementSpeed% (33%?) debuff while being cast.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Go back and roll up a Two Gun Mojo user, you'll be happy :)
Basically we're all talking about Travel Suppression and how different games handle it.
The biggest problem I had with [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Travel_Powers#Suppression]CoH's Travel Suppression[/url] was the abrupt, binary unnaturalness of the way it was implemented. What I mean by that is that when it kicked it you instantly slowed down to the suppressed speed and stayed that slow for the full 4 second duration, at which time you instantly jumped back up to your original speed. It was like driving a car at 60 MPH, instantaneously dropping down to 30 MPH for 4 seconds then instantly jumping back up to 60 MPH. The net effect of that seemed very jerky and overtly unrealistic overall.
I understand from a software code point of view it was probably relatively easy to implement that "on-off" method but I've been hoping that if we end up with Travel Suppression in CoT that it'll be handled a little more like a smooth bell curve instead of with instant speed changes. I feel that Travel Suppression would overall feel less jerky if during the course of the 4 seconds you "curved down" in speed for 2 seconds then curved back up to your original speed in the last 2 seconds. I think doing it that way would preserve the purpose of Travel Suppression while also making it far less annoying at the same time.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I primarily played hover blasters, so I never really encountered this problem. On the few occasions that I did, yes, it was a bit obnoxious. From a game design/balance standpoint, I fully understand why they did it, and why they designed it how they did. I, for one, hope that at the very least City of Titans will use the same system. I am crossing my fingers that they can improve on it, such as with Lothic's scaling speed idea, or by including mechanics that make "speedster combat," for example, actually possible. (Speedster combat used here to mean a Quicksilver type fighting style with lots of fast paced fly-by attacks.)
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TBH many of my CoH characters were "Hover-oriented" as well and I suspect they'll be again in CoT regardless. I'm mostly just implying that if CoT can come up with a more "friendly" version of Travel Suppression then I might be more willing to try super-speeders or super-leapers.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
A Bit unrelated, but I loved the pool power attack Air Superiority, the flight attack that cancelled flight for the recipient. Something like speedster combat would need an answer too. As say a martial arts/reflexes scrapper, speedster combat would destroy me, unless I had a "land superiority" to give me a chance to hit back. AoEs could do this too, if i can catch the speedster in my footstomp, handclap, or short circuit.
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[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
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Avatar by MikeNovember
So... a clothesline attack? Hee hee, I can see it now:
-Enemy NPC comes zooming in for a fly-by punch.
-Player activates "Clothesline." PC holds out arm slightly curved at the elbow.
-NPC gets caught, momentum carries the sprite into a back flip, landing in a face-plant on the ground.
-Melee PC owns the sucka.
And thus, a new fan favorite power is born :P
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Ice Man of [url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/phoenix-rising-initiative-0]The Phoenix Rising Initiative[/url]
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In CoH and Champions, Teleport was rather handy if you knew how to use it. Also, combat jumping, sprint, hurtle, and swift together allowed you to have unsuppressed movement, and in PvP, the players looked like jumping beans, as they were all over a map.
Just going to pop in and say I hope Teleporting isn't "Invisible/Intangible Flight" in City of Titans.
There should be benefits to both mobile combat and stationary combat. In Champions, being a magic user usually meant you could fortify an area with your magic. I hope that being a jumping bean is fun, but I also hope there's some engaging stationary combat frameworks for those who prefer them.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
But I hated the jumping bean aspect of CoH. In one thread someone linked a video to CoH PvP and why it was so FAST, yeah it was fast because everyone in that video had what was basically a carbon copy build of Superspeed and Superjump and yup...those two superpowers are so iconic and common with the superheroes
Way to miss my point on the original post. The videos posted was evidence to the fast COMBAT that you were arguing against. It really takes a person in denial to say that the pace of the spikes and evasion set was anything but fast in that original video.
PvP is a competitive environment, everyone had a 'carbon copy build with superspeed and superjump' because it was the optimal pairing for evasion and out pacing opponents. Naturally you go for whats best in a competitive scene. So again way to miss the point.
With more relevance to this thread, a lot of people would point directly at the speed of which CoH played to its unique and different feel to other games in terms of PvP. That along with team co-ordination in some instances.
Someone posted once way back when on the CoH forums about moving while attacking and gave the example of an Assault Rifle Blaster running from a group of baddies. The idea was, only a couple of attacks could be used (I think in his example it was some type of CC and a dmg attack) and there would be a small -ACC debuff for attacking while moving. That way the squishy blaster stood the chance of at least taking a few baddies with him if he didn't get away, but it wouldn't be to the point to where he could use Full Auto while running away.
I know I am about to say a bad word but, in WoW =O Shamans can cast one of their basic attacks (Lightning Bolt) while moving. What if CoT expanded on this. I loved Power Push in the Energy Blast set, but it always annoyed me that the baddie flew the same distance no matter if I was flying toward him or standing still. It would be so cool if you could use an ability like Power Push while moving and as a result would cause the enemy to fly further away.
Well, having only played CoH, CO, TSW and DCUO, I'm not black and white about the rooting thing. There were times in CoH where rooting made things feel more Heroic, and times when it was annoying. But the "run and gun" of TSW could feel a little spastic and unrealistic--and exhausting.
I guess I'd be for good use of both rooting and free movement where it enhanced fun and/or balanced mechanics? I would think some of both would also make combat feel more varied and less monotonous. Always rooted gets old, always moving gets exhausting. To me, anyway.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I think part of the problem with the TSW model is that it was (if i remember correctly) the same animation if you were moving or not... which made some attacks look unrealistic. However, I personally enjoyed the build that I had (swords/pistol) where I was able to root and then quickly run past a mob and *attack them* at the same time.
This is why I believe that a good compromise would be abilities that could be cast whilst moving, some that cannot be cast whilst moving (so if you do use them, they will root you automagically or they stop the casting process WHEN you start moving again), and some that will ROOT you to the spot.
The play style then is pretty much up to the whim of the player... you could have 2 people with the same power choices but depending on how they choose to enhance their abilities you could have a high mobility version and a "stay there and pound on me" style (which could possibly be the more defensive build)
While we haven't gotten to general movement and combat in gameplay yet, it is on our radar. One aspect of the former game CoH and rooted combat which is often forgotten was a pve issue where it was possible to 'joust' targets to damage them and avoid return fire - thus allowing player reaction to supplant the entire defensive systems for character builds. Some players *cough* early on were able to joust some giant monsters and defeat them (even with the reduced to-hit of travel powers prior to suppression). As the game aged and many changes came along I don't know if this would've been a consistant possibility - but by then the system was in place and encounters designed to exploit rooted combat to an extent. Where totally freedom of movement and combat were possible some encounters probably wouldn't have been made.
Suffice to say we have a lot to consider when we get into movement and combat. With regards to freedom of movement and combat we have from how animations look (we have some nifty tools we might be able to use with certain aspects of this), to how the play feels, to what advantages it provides and how is it exploitable. Right now its all on the table from: everything roots, movement is suppressed, all the way to total freedom. We probably will end up somewhere in the middle where certain types of powers / animations root, while others don't root, and where there may be a form of travel-power suppression. At least this is the basic outline based on our last discussion on the topic that I have. YMMV, all things subject to change, taken with a poun-o-salt, and all that.
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I much preferred the mobile combat of Champions Online to City of Heroes. I'd like to see combat that doesn't completely remove movement speed from the equation.. I love speedsters and the idea of running up and stopping to get a cast off is not as fun as being able to keep mobile and lunge.
Also as a proponent of crowd control.. I want a system that is more than "held" and "not held". Movement speed is a great way to measure that debuff mechanic.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I suppose I need to bring up CO's terrible problem of "Running circles around the enemy" whether it be against an AI or PC, as was mentioned in the other thread asking for this.
With the exception of a few powers that need to be charged (TK Lance, Sniper Rifle, Rocket Launcher...etc) and almost every Melee ability (save for the combos) you can effectively DANCE around your opponent while you damage them. It's even worse with Two Gun Mojo (A power I actually liked when it was weak (Specialist!!) and not broken to hell). And it's unfortunately "quirks" like these that help to remove the difficulty that was once there. When a majority of Therakiel runs (if they even happen! D:) turn into 5 people Circle Strafing around what used to be one of the hardest Bosses in the game and killing him before he can even go into his Invuln Phase.. there's a problem. Now this isn't just the movement's fault. Freedom to choose any selection of powers is the real problem here.. But I guarantee if you were rooted in place when attacking anything, it would make a LOT of the "hard" fights take longer than a minute.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
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Again, we're not at the point where we are diving into movement and combat yet. One of the directions we are taking is that travel powers are for travel, and there will be combat-based travel powers that are designed with a movement-travel theme.
Mobility can be really fun to play with, but if mobility in combat results into allowing twitch-play to override intended game design that may be a problem. This is the "we never intended for X to occur" secnario. A bad example could be the Super Running power which allows the character to run at high velocity, being used in attacking opponents in such a way that the character is in minimal danger so long as it continues to move. Therefore 1 power with appropriate player input has now replaced the purpose of designing an entire power set like Super Agility. This could be considered unintended behavior. Hence, we've discussed the possibility of a mix of certain types of powers may require rooting, some requiring a form of suppression, and others with no rooting / suppression. It also depends heavily on how / what the form of suppression we use, which may resolve the issue altogether within itself as a mechanic. Time (and play testing) will tell.
We are exploring the possibility of non-binary controls though they are not currently all tied in relation to movement speed.
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- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
What other MMOs are you checking out as you all work on COT? I would think you're also looking at other MMOs and seeing what's good and what's bad.
I like the idea of having Travel powers and combat travel powers. That's what I always imagined Combat Jumping as being, something that was turned on in combat to allow you more agility and mobility to use while fighting. I did not like being Kited by players in PvP with Super Speed. Queue up an attack, run by with Super Speed, get hit, then by the time you tried to get a retaliation in they were half way across the map again turning around to do the same thing. I wasn't a big fan of being completely rooted either, but I at least understood the need for it to be done. Sounds promising that you guys are looking into it and trying to decide a middle ground that will make everybody happy.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Thanks for weighing in as a redname, Tannim. I like that you are taking the problem of exploiting combat movement into consideration.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I hated travel suppression, particularly for kicking the iconic Speedster in the tenders...
"Alright, Super Quickie is here to save the day in a flash! Ready to zip back and forth between the baddies as a speedster ought! *punch* Gah! Moving... so... slowly!"
Narrator: And suddenly, to add insult to injury, several other non-Speedster heroes with blue auras are zipping around the battlefield at super speeds without being slowed down at all!
"What in the name of Barry?!"
It was even worse when we had to wait until level 14 to even get Superspeed.
I like the possibility of, for example, "speedster powers" to give the feel of being a speedster if fighting without suppression won't work, but, from experience, if the speedster powers aren't almost EXACTLY as good as the general powers, then either almost noone or almost everyone will use them.
The idea of "low tier/less powerful" powers not rooting, "middle tier/power" powers suppressing movement, and "THE BIG GUNS" causing rooting is intriguing. That could increase variety in combat and provide an additional way to balance powers.
Travel Pool attack powers possibly having the special advantage of being suppression/root free is also intriguing...
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Because movement is so fundamental to how combat works, for parity sake I do not advocate having combat rules that are not constant.
I like the idea of all 100m range powers having the same casting rules (rooted?)
all 60m range powers having the same casting rules (50% movement speed debuff?)
all 30m powers (cone/PBAoE) having the same casting rules (25% movement speed debuff?)
all melee and lunge powers having the same casting rules (free motion)
The percentages I list above are hypotheticals. I understand the actual nature of the combat would come from testing but I do this to illustrate the basis of my desire.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I don't want to leave any false impressions, it hasn't been decided if power by tier is how we will address rooting or not. It may not be as cut and dry as that. We have quite a bit of work before we even get to our version of power pools and travel powers. The main thing to take away from this is that we are aware of the desire to have more freedom of movement in combat, while at the same time attempting to avoid unintentionally building in twitch-centric play.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
No, I gotcha. That's why I said "the idea of". I'm assuming almost nothing is at the "final decision" stage--except maybe the name :)
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
It was the major reason I left as well, and it was a kludgey fix for over simplified mechanics. The game should have had ranged powers attenuate both accuracy and damage as things get farther away. In addition, there should be penalties to accuracy based on relative velocity. And, if velocity penalizes not only base accuracy but amplifies the accuracy penalties for range then kiting becomes iffy unless additional powers and enhancements are bought to help offset the drop in accuracy.
Rooting was inflicted on the players because inadequate mechanics made kiting a more effective strategy than it should have been.
Hopefully the game mechanics will be more robust.
And, more robust mechanics yield more things that can be enhanced as characters progress.
While I agree that all of these mechanics could be good, I wouldn't personally be a supporter of NO rooting at all.
I know people will jump on me a bit about this, but have you ever tired to shoot anything--even a water gun--while running or even walking. Or have you ever tried to hit something really hard with any accuracy while running or even walking?
Both can be done, but they are challenging and NOT ALWAYS A GOOD IDEA OR WORTH IT EVEN FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE TRAINED FOR IT, which is why often people plant their feet to shoot or fight. Plus, rooting in games can be used to make you feel like you are bracing against the recoil of a power, which makes the power feel very powerful. Big guns have recoil.
Ok, arguments I expect against:
1) It's a Superhero game, it's not realistic, have you ever tried to FLY? I didn't think so.
2) My guy is a SUPERHERO, of course he's good enough to do it! Hello--Superhero!
3) This isn't real life, it's a game, and rooting is so 2004. In gaming, constant movement is the new black.
All I can say is that both real life and comic books have lots of examples of rooting, and constant movement with never planting your feet is actually immersion breaking to me because it isn't like either. It may be like Xbox of Playstation games, but it's not like real life or comic books.
That being said--I'd still play the game either way, I just personally wouldn't prefer it.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I too am for some form of rooting. Maybe not as hard as CoH was, or as long, but still needs to be some kind of balance to prevent Kiting. Otherwise there needs to be some form of heavy penalty to the attack if you aren't going to root. Something like -Acc or -Dam, because like it has been mentioned it's a lot harder to hit something while moving and you can't quite get as much power behind a hit as you can if you can plant yourself and really use your entire body to throw a punch with. Even Flash runs in really fast, then stops to throw a punch, then runs off again.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I'm with Empyrean and Static on this one. Actually never had a problem with CoX's model. Just my 2 inf.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I agree that CoH's handling of travel suppression never felt quite right.
I also don't think a single rule need apply to all travel powers. Just using CoH style travel powers for the sake of argument...
With flight I think a more organic approach like that used in Star Trek Online would work. For starters you don't jump straight from stationary to full speed. You accelerate and decelerate and that takes time. Being a moving target makes you harder for others to hit (i.e. defence bonus) but also makes it harder for you to aim at others (accuracy debuff).
Similar rules could work for superjump. Sure jumpers don't need to worry about acceleration and deceleration but they would need to actually land on something to execute attacks (without the accuracy debuff) so that could balance out with flight.
Teleportation could be accompanied by an accuracy debuff for a few seconds post teleport because you need to re-orient to your surroundings. I don't think it needs to be more complicated than that.
Superspeed is possibly the trickiest to my mind in terms of organic realism. Maybe it needs a little something extra. As in CoH make it a toggle-able power but say that the molecular excitation makes it dangerous to execute other powers (i.e. risk of self-injury) while it's active and have that risk taper off over a few seconds after toggling it off.
Get the numbers right and you don't need an arbitrary travel suppression mechanic to make the use of travel powers during combat balanced and require strategic thought.
2 inf: A skilled teleporter may be beyond reorientation, esp. if this teleporter isn't human, or even human mutate.
I enjoyed Hover in CoH, but if a smooth transition from Hover to Flight to Afterburner (which would almost inhibit combat) could make things very organic and immersive.
Please, have superjump that can bounce off walls :)
What about cases where travel powers can enhance attacks(/defenses maybe)? I.e. a super jump that can land with a footstomp (why did CoH never have this!?), or afterburner that could end in a launching punch or kick, same for SS.
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Avatar by MikeNovember
They had Lightning Rod, which was a teleport with a huge blast of electricity in the impact zone, somewhat the same.
20041004-20120910
Lightning Rod, Shield Charge, and Spring Attack. All teleport/attack powers.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I love you. Have a thread wanting exactly this. I know its not a promise but the fact that what I want was already being looked at makes me giddy.
While I agree total movement freedom is not ideal and could be game breaking the reverse is also true.
As far as real life and comics not having movement in combat, its just not true. Mounted combat (be it bows on a horse or guns on a jeep) are common. What about old Bi-Planes dogfighting is really different than two flying energy blasters dueling. In comics its much more common to see your hero or villain moving around a lot than standing still. Spiderman, toad, flash, Green Arrow, Bullseye, the list goes on and on. They all use movement in combat alot with no real ill effects. The whole point to superheroes is they are dynamic in some way, movement included.
The trick isn't to just allow movement for a dynamic character, its to give the ILLUSION of it when restricting movement. It can be animations that chain nicely or a combination of free move with suppression or anything else, I leave it to the devs.
You see these as travel based attacks yet don't see a fleshed out set with all of these and more?
I have no issue with having this as a set as long as there is also some form of mitigation for it. I can see this being abused if not handled properly. If someone can freely teleport in, do some form of attack that does a ton of damage, knocks the enemy down, then is able to instantly teleport out without fear of any kind of retaliation.........what's the fun in that? Especially in a PvP system. You'll have people whining about balance faster than you can blink your eye. With those teleport/attack powers there is a long root time afterwards. This gives the enemy the ability to hit back if they haven't been knocked out/down.
My fear with a travel based attack combat system is that you'll have Min/Maxers figuring out some way to use these sets to be able to destroy anything in the game without fear of failure. There has to be some kind of Risk/Reward system and I can see this possibly being abused in such a way that there is no risk involved. As I've stated before, tack on some -ACC, -DAM, or make the attacks become rooted and then I'll be okay with it. I just don't want to see people turning on Super Speed, queuing up their most heavy attack, kiting by some hapless victim, and destroying them in one hit without being able to retaliate in return. We saw this a lot in PvP before CoH suppressed Travel Powers.
I understand that there are a lot of things people want to have implemented in a game, that has not yet been created yet, in hopes of having everything the way they want it. I too would love to have some things done as well. However, I'm trying to take a step back and look at it not from my wants but from the perspective of having something done that will be a good solid core game. Right now the best thing for us to focus on is trying to get the "Core" game made. Give the Devs suggestions on basic things that will work from launch and at least get us started in the right direction.
I'm not saying let's not brainstorm ideas that would be really cool to have, I'm just saying let's shift the focus to the basics first. Then once we've accomplished getting all the basics done and running smoothly, we can then start asking for all the bells and whistles to be added on to it afterwards. We have to think about the limited time, resources, and funds these developers have at the moment and ask, "What can we get that would be best for the game, RIGHT NOW." This is why I try to push so heavily for just starting out with all the standard stuff, Super Strength, Fire Blast, Ice Blast, Ice Melee, Fire Melee, Invincibility, Ice Armor, Stone Armor, Fire Armor, Martial Arts, Boxing, etc. After we have a core set of stuff designed and implemented, then we can start going into the more exotics such as Chain Attack, Mixed Martial Arts, Psionic Blades, Kinetic Melee, Super Speed Attacks, etc.
I've seen a ton of posts pop up lately about almost everything under the sun that people would love to see in the game. That's great, but I wonder if it's distracting the Devs to the point of hindering their ability to get this game designed and developed in a timely manner that they wish to put this game out for release. I also wonder if they feel the pressure to attempt to appeal to our desires and see if they can't try to implement SOME of these requests at launch. Personally, I'd just like to see the game launched in such a manner as that we have something to play and then build upon at a later date. I don't care if my water shimmers or sparkles, I don't care if a tree casts a shadow or not, I don't care if I get Electricity Melee and Electricity Armor at start or not. I just want to have a game that I can play that I can call home. We can start adding all the other stuff in later as time and money permits.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Ignoring that I would say a form of speed combat is more iconic that say fire melee (not saying no fire melee saying both) I don't think there can really be a 'RIGHT NOW' in MMO development. The best example I have is... remember how long from launch it took for powers to just get color options in CoH. This was in part due to the very nature of the way they designed the powers animation. To me that shows that just getting the game out and working can actually cause issues later. If the devs of this game see a large interest in something they can create the core game with the intention of fulfilling that later.
You make it seem like the Devs are hyperactive children. They have already stated they have a development schedule with features they are focusing on and features they are trying to include in launch. I don't think a post about time travel, powerset or any other desire is going to derail it.
I could be wrong and if I am please correct me, but statements like this and many others you have made lead me to think you just want a copy of CoX back. If that's true I think you will be disappointed.
I do want a copy of CoH back, so do a lot of people on this forum, so do the developers. Granted it's not going to be EXACTLY like CoH was because obvious reasons of copy rights and what not. However, from the information I have garnered from dev postings it will be very similar to CoX with added improvements that will make it better. I do not want a copy of CO, DCUO, Marvel Online, WoW, GW, NW, etc. If I can push to keep CoT as similar to CoH as I can without it infringing upon anybody's rights I will. This game is being developed by players of CoH that loved CoH and want to have their community and game back as much as possible. So no, I do not think I'll be disappointed. I think I'll be greatly appeased that it will be as close to CoH as the developers can make it while making it better in the process.
You may be right that all these posts will not deter the developers from making the game in the format that they would like to have it made. However, that doesn't mean that they completely ignore the forums either. There is a chance they might be perusing the forums and see some of these ideas and that could distract them momentarily from focusing on what needs to be done. Not saying they don't have the capacity to do what they need to do, just saying it could be a distraction. I understand that people want to put out the ideas for future implementation, but you're assuming the engine they are using will not allow for future changes or adaptations. While that may have been the case for old school CoH, I don't see that as a case for CoT using the newest Unreal 4 engine.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Unless I am mistaken CoT will not be CoX with new names, new graphics and new powersets. That's the impression I get of what you want. CoX polished up. Many of the things discussed are things the devs themselves have said they are looking at. Character creation, archetypes, missions, contacts, combat, powers ect are all going to be different. Some more than others. That isn't bad.
I too miss CoX with all my heart but Atlas Park is gone its not going to come back with new paint.
I don't really understand what this means. Your saying a programmer stops working to read the forums sees something interesting and ....what ...stops working with all his might? Can you explain this argument more clearly.
The engine does not encompass all the programming. You took my example of color customizing ignoring that it was an example of what can happen when not seeing something as important. That isn't limited to graphical but mechanical as well.
CoH gameplay plus considerable but careful improvements/extensions appears to be the intent for CoT, as a long-term vision. The Heroes and Villains project (another Plan Z effort) seems to be aiming closer to CoH, and there is progress underway - as reported on Titan Network - to obtain the rights to the CoH IP, bring back CoH itself and/or begin CoH2 development. So the community is covering all bases, plus the Valiance Online project which altered its development plans to take more inspiration from CoH.
Until the CoT developers release a more detailed picture of the core gameplay and systems, we can't realistically give much more feedback on it than we already have over the past year and a half. From what comments I've seen, they are clearly focused on the core and correctly prioritizing it over all else. Obviously they're human and are devoted gamers and CoH fans, and as such have their pet ideas and concerns - thus some threads get more attention than others, plus some devs are simply not experts in the core systems and are contributing where possible.
The value of these seemingly non-core topics is multifaceted - first, it's a place for the devs to rapidly skim to confirm / deny player interest in things that might be future cash shop items, and thus provide ongoing financial support for their efforts post-launch. Second, they can check their core system development against our wilder ideas, to verify the core is extensible...getting the code built right for future expansion = faster and easier issue releases, avoiding the difficulties Paragon Studios had when trying to adapt the original CoH code to do things like alternate animations, power color editing, and branching missions. Third, they can let us as players do the work of fleshing out the ideas and probing for flaws in them or pointing out conflicts with the core, which saves them some time - then they can pick out the gems and add them to their plans for post-launch expansions.
The points you have made are very good. I would like to add another less tangible one. By offering suggestions we are engaging in a kind of wishing well. While many of our suggestions will never make it into the game they still hold the value (the coin we toss in to the well if you will). It keeps us interested and engaged in the game which will translate to continued spiritual support for the developers. Its not a distraction to see people interested....its encouraging.
I believe movement and powers should be synergistic: working in harmony with each other. Batman uses his travel powers with his attacks, as does Superman, Flash, Spiderman, Hulk, and virtually every other superhero/villain. But I agree there needs to be a way to balance game-play, especially melee vs. ranged. However, we need to acknowledge that PvE shouldn't be balanced against PvP. That is a promise that I believe the CoT team wants to keep. So we as players need to understand that there will be superior builds and tactics that will be used by hardcore PvP players, and that we should not call foul because our more concept oriented build does not work as well as their build that they spent countless hours on learning to do one thing- defeat other players.
This pretty much nails my feelings. I'm not a fan of NO rooting at all either.
I may get some flak about it, but with 20/20 hindsight gathered by playing several MMOs after sunset, I actually enjoyed rooting. It gave me an opportunity to enjoy the animation. It gave the power more "oomph". And maybe I didn't mind it so much because I was "cheating the system" by animating a lot of my powers mid-jump to avoid rooting. I learned to play within the limitations.
The long Bitter Ice Blast animation made it FEEL powerful. You would raise your hands in the air and gather up all the moisture surrounding you and power up that baby FOREVER before unleashing it. As long as the animation was, this was a good example of making the attack FEEL powerful.
This is (overall) an interesting discussion, because I feel that *some* abilities should be able to be used on the fly, but not *ALL* abilities.
It does depend on the attack/animation/theme/power/balancing etc etc. If I remember correctly, CoX used animation time as a *general* balancing factor as well in their powers, in that the longer animating ones were the *harder hitting* ones. I will admit, I was *rarelly* able to break the "rooting" in CoX, but then again when it happened, I was unable to *directly* replicate that. Was it something that some powerset found easier than others?
And that I can get behind.
One of the complaints from Wildstar, is that one of the classes is fairly immobile in terms of combat abilities, whilst the other classes are more mobile ( at an equivalent level). The same is in WoW as well... where the casters tend to have more "break on movement" abilities, where you can self interrupt it (if you have to). And so I would like to hope that combat is not *100%* "no rooting", or 100% rooting, but a combination of the two, where being on the move *could* be a disadvantage to attacking.
So it would be player choice if they wanted to move or not.
In CoH the two most common way to overcome rooting were with the use of jumping and drive by. Jumping would be using the power in the course of a jump and let momentum carry you while the animation played out, drive by you would prep an attack and run past so due to lag the animation starts when you are away from the target. These were generally considered gaming the system and were in large part what brought movement suppression.
I would hope that in CoT the combat system includes a limited form of movement that both removes the need/desire to do this but still not fall into twitch game mechanics.
Honestly, with movement being such a large part of CoH's gameplay, I think that moving away from a rooted animation would COMPLETELY change how the game would feel and take away from the casual gamer aspect of CoH that so many of us enjoy.
Ex Night Widow PvP main
Oh agreed.
I am not expecting a combat system like Borderlands 2, Mordern Warfare etc where having *fast* reflexes is needed to accomplish some things; however I am also not expecting a system where every attack sticks you to the floor for 10 seconds whilst its animation plays out, and there was nothing for you to do to whilst it runs its course (even if that results in you dying).
It is a balancing act.
Side note: Final Fantasy 14 seems to have achieved this fairly well, where (depending on skills you take) you can end up being rooted for a wide range of attacks, or you are fairly mobile (although less damaging overall).
The same goes for Wildstar and WoW, and it was also a factor in CoX IIRC (although in CoX's case, it was animation time that was considered).
I do think that a balance can be struck between the two (root and non root), and with the wide range of power set choices and AT's I hope that there is a powerset/AT combination that all players can feel comfortable with, even if one is more mobile than the other (but less damaging overall).
Or at last a way for players to "cancel" their ability action even if it is "mid-cast", just so that you have the chance to avoid the "wrong place wrong time" situation.
I would have no issue with the canceling of animations as long as it included both power activation cost and it wasn't tied to the movement keys.
I think part of the balancing factor of a long animation power is that you could not move during it, if you could simply cancel it then there should be another balancing factor to replace that, I suggest the power activation cost. Also nothing would frustrate me more than activating my attack and accidently hitting the move forward button to interrupt my animation.
Oh agreed. But for me, there is nothing more frustrating being caught in an AOE due to a long power animation and that there was NOTHING that I could do about it, because my *super long* animation for a rez prevented me from cancelling it out early (no rez firing off).
I think that this is a case of "Someone will be unhappy, lets make as *FEW* people unhappy as possible"
Side note: If I remember correctly, the Fire/Psi doms had an easy way to build up their domination bar *easily* (being able to cancel out of the snipe by moving *before* it actually fired. If timed correctly you got the increase in your domination bar, but DIDN'T fire off your snipe (and you were able to repeat this ad infinitum). That is one thing that I would like to see removed from the game as well.
But that is one of the few abilities that I am aware of (although I am sure that there were other abilities like that though) that the player could "self cancel" with impunity.
I always enjoyed systems that had some form of rooting or snaring systems in place depending on how potent the ability was. It's another balancing measure. Abilities that have longer animations, preferably, should be interruptible.
- Weak, Low Utility Powers, Fast Animations: Available to use on the move.
- Moderate: Requires you to stand still, or walk slow, for a moment. Can be interrupted by enemies or the player itself by moving.
- Powerful, Charge-Up: Completely rooted in place until the animation is complete. Can be interrupted by enemies or the player itself by moving.
As for Travel Powers, I would like to see more abilities under each path to make it worthwhile investing further into. As a few posters mentioned, having the option of acquiring a "combat-oriented" Travel power. With such abilities, I suspect having Travel-suppression would still be appropriate on the Travel extreme powers.
hmm... Kiting.. -Acc.. and if you Miss... shows a tumbling animation as you trip and fall on your face! ;D and take Falling Damage. Risk/Reward! ;) Thats what you get for fighting cowardly! ;D
Light attacks with Minor, Moderate DMG (thinking back to my Energy Blaster) would not be rooted, powers like: Power Bolt, Power Blast, etc..
..could allow for legs to animate, but even then.. the legs would move slower than regular, maybe the same speed like that WALK Power. But would depend on the Animation too, like if you did Kick, even though its Moderate DMG, it doesnt make sense to allow movement then. :P
And why was Kick soo Dissapointing as an animation.. I wanted to see Kick hit them in the Groin, or the Abdomen, or better yet the Face. :D
Ohh, i think they did that so the Martial Arts (Crane) Kick version would look better. :/
Hmm.. but Jump Kick looked much Cooler, but took FOREVER to Animate.
Animation Time VS. Damage Output. Very Uneven. >:/ Squishies without mitigation will know what im saying. :(
If a long Stun time was tacked on to Jump Kick, that would work too. ;)
Mitigation to me was a type of Controller Effect and should Always be considered in the balancing of a power-set.
People liked Energy Blast for a few reasons, but one of them was knocking foes on their asses.. allowing for powers to recharge and to SEEM to be available more often, but thats just a game mechanic.
Energy Blast Powers didnt have more DMG than Fire blast.. just better mechanic. (puts tongue out to fire basters)
In the early levels( the ones without SO's), an Energy blaster had a slightly better chance of survival than a fire blaster. ;)