Cause I really want to!
I want a super strength kinda guy with a few tertiary ranged attacks that I can use a shield for.
(and for that matter, If I can toss a shield, can I use a pair of giant floating fists as a ranged attack?)
(PS: if I pay $1500 in the next kickstarter...will that get me the giant floating fists re: weapon design? *)
OK, but this is really about a tossed shield. Will we rise above the limits of COH and truly shine?
and one more thing...[u]can I punch with my shield?[/u] Cause ya know, the Rooks have been really asking for it.
* PPS. I have negotiated with my dearest wife. I can spend this much on the game if she gets an equal amount. Done.
—
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
When Captain America throws his mighty shield,
All those who chose to oppose his shield must yield!
If he's led to a fight and a duel is due,
Then the red and the white and the blue'll come through!
When Captain America throws his mighty shield!
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
[img]https://i.imgur.com/dhMeAzK.gif?noredirect[/img]
Shield as a main and off-hand weapon perhaps? Sword and Shield, i have not seen a superhero include that yet. Not even DCUO with Wonder Woman
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
I want to dual wield shields bro
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/24.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
This guy infinities.
Charles Logan
www.cloganart.com
If anyone remembers the Blood Pit play-by-mail game, dual wielding tower shields was a great way to survive matches while not dishing out much damage.
"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit
In D&D 3.5 technically by the rules a rogue could hide behind his tower shield to make him and his gear hidden... Including the tower shield he's hiding behind.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
And you wonder why people would ever "question" WotC's implemention of D&D. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Not really. Every company for any TTRPG can make rules that don't function properly 100% of the time.
Because 3.5 was a very rules heavy system there's bound to be parts that either don't work together or don't work properly for all situations.
The tower shield thing is because rogues can hide whenever they have cover, tower shields grant cover, ergo the rogue can hide himself behind it, effectively making him and his gear invisible. Including the tower shield.
No sane DM would allow this to work but it's 100% rules legal.
Partially why I'm glad WotC has moved from rules to rulings.
Didn't want this thread to turn into one talking about D&D, the mention of odd tower shield shenanigans made me remember that odd rules tidbit from 3.5.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
No I don't really want to talk about the "merits" of various versions of D&D either. I just wanted to comment on the idea that rules from ANY GAME (not just D&D) that would allow an object in "plain sight" to be considered "hidden" just because that object is circularly defined as "hidden gear" needs to be given a serious sanity check. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Like I said, no sane DM would allow it. But from a purely logical rules as written perspective it works. You have cover, you can hide.
There's reasons why DMs/GMs exist :P
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
That's not an example of "purely logical rules as written"... that's a prime example of full-on 100% BS hand-wavey rules lawyering. ;)
Unless the book literally said something along the lines of "a thief hidden behind a tower shield can have his/her shield treated as being hidden too" then I doubt anyone (player or DM) more sane than a silly six year old would "interpret" that to mean the shield would be hidden from view as well. This is practically a case of [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong]not even wrong[/url].
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Nothing handwavey about it.
A rogue can hide if he has cover. A tower shield grants him cover. Therefore the Rogue can hide.
When hidden the rogue and all his gear is considered invisible. The tower shield is equipped to the rogue. Therefore the tower shield is considered invisible.
Cold hard logical rules. Rogues can hide if they have cover. A hidden rogue and all their gear is considered invisible. The rules do not make an exception for if you're hiding behind your own equipment.
Rules lawyery? Definitely. Handwavey? Certainly not.
No one would let it happen. But the Rules as Written say they can. 3.5s rules as written make a load of nonsense possible such as healing by drowning, not being able to see a lit torch outside it's light radius, technically not being able to see the Sun or other celestial bodies, and many other bizarre rules quirks.
No one ran it this way (or at least I hope they didn't) because they had enough common sense to not. But it's all rules legal and logical. It just makes no sense.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Well I get that rules written in a book can be either "strictly interpreted" or "loosely interpreted" as the case may be. The fact that one person can see it one way and another person another has led to humanity's rich history of legal jurisprudence and countless wars based on religious quibbling.
One can only hope the people who wrote the text for the set of rules in question didn't actually intend for "circularly invisible tower shields" even if their sloppy wording could have allowed for it in some acid-tripping warping of reality. :)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Oh, it was definitely not intended. Rogues don't even get tower shield proficiency on their own.
But then again if your skills are high enough in 3.5 you essentially warp reality anyway. With a high enough check of a certain skill (don't remember which) someone can squeeze through a gap an inch wide, for example. You can climb up perfectly smooth vertical surfaces with a good enough climb check. Balance on clouds with a high enough balance check.
These are all for characters post level 20 however, when they're practically becoming gods. So it's fitting, if completely ridiculous... Though also with the right builds you can pretty comfortably make epic checks before level 20... 3.5 was kind of a mess, looking back on it.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
[i]looks up from his ADnD 2nd ED elitism, scoffs at 3.5, and carries on[/i]
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
[i]nudges 5th edition in your direction [/I]
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
[img]https://i.imgur.com/UxAP0jz.gif[/img]
Your evil cannot harm me.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Good thing it's neither mine nor evil then.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Don't get Project_Hero started. He's one of those lost souls that thinks D&D was invented by WotC in 1997. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
That's news to me.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Proof that your brainwash by WotC is full and complete. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Not sure I follow your logic here.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
[img=300x300]http://images.dailyhive.com/20160829132429/Gene-Wilder-Died.jpg[/img]
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
So, uh, getting back to the OP...
I can imagine that with aesthetic decoupling this is possible. We get a wide range of props, the ability to customize what those look like, and have those props integrated into abilities.
So I imagine an Enforcer can use his shield prop when battling people in melee. Probably even two if dual-wielding. Every character gets a free melee and free ranged attack to start, so maybe the Enforcer can customize the ranged attack to use a shield-throw animation.
A Bulwark should most definitely be able to use a shield and I’m guessing she could use a “set the shield in place” or “hide behind the shield” animation for using some defensive powers.
You might even have a Ranger throwing a shield, or shooting people from a shield, maybe the shield is magic and can fire bolts of arcane power or fireballs. Or how awesome would it be to make a shield with a gun built into it? Or dual-wield a pistol and shield.
So I wonder whether shields are available props (I assume they are), what animations will work with shields, and will there be a “shield throw” animation? Is it possible to animate the shield returning like a boomerang, or bounce it like Captain America? What about a floating shield controlled via telekinesis, magnetism, or magic, or maybe some kind of antigravity or drone technology?
Lots you can do with shields, just wondering how much we can do in-game.
Makes me wonder if you have a shield as a prop for your defensive powers, then take a ranged tertiary set and have you throw the prop...
Would you throw the one you have or would you spawn a new one to throw while still having the other one for your defenses?
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Heh, now I envision a superhero named Shieldy McShielderson. You have a big shield on your left arm to block, and a spiked shield on your right to attack. And you throw little shields like shuriken as a ranged attack, held in a bandolier across your chest.
This idea sounds redundant but fun
I accidently ate a bowl of radioactive soup....ok I guess that makes me a Soup-er Hero
Re-FUN-dant.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Ah, yes: http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/journals/conservation-journal/issue-39/a-gun-shield-from-the-armoury-of-henry-viii-decorative-oddity-or-important-discovery/. I've seen one of these at http://www.castlerockmuseum.com/main/.
Formerly wyldhunt of CoH; Guardianite since I2.
That gun-shield is awesome. A modern version should have a little plexiglass window to see through.
Most modern riot shields already have plexiglass cutouts or are made entirely of plexiglass:
[img=400x400]http://www.hyperspike.ru/bphoto/hypershield2.jpg[/img]
[img=400x400]https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/chinese-police-crouch-behind-riot-shields-during-a-crowd-control-in-picture-id129112731[/img]
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Yes but those are subpar non-gun-shields!
I actually spent a few minutes googling for "modern hand-held shields with guns" pics and I couldn't find any. I'm guessing the concept sounds good in theory but doesn't actually work well in practice. The closest thing I found was this:
[img=400x400]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxfvgsfUl91qj9a8qo1_500.jpg[/img]
which is really more of a "gun with a shield" instead of a "shield with a gun". Again I'm assuming the idea is simply far less practical than one might initially think.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
In general the shield and gun serve two very different purposes. Back in ye olden days having a crossbow or primitive firearm attached to a big honking shield would give you decent protection against bad stuff coming your way. Shields are pretty decent at stopping arrows and stones. Not so great at stopping modern bullets. If a military force these days is actively using guns, the firepower itself is their defense. A riot shield isn't going to be a big help against serious firepower. While there are heavier military armors and shields generally the best way to prevent injury from modern firearms is not to get shot, usually by using your own firearm first. Even if your goal is to pin and suppress the other guy so he can't stick his head out and shoot at you effectively, you'd do that with bullets.
In contrast, police forces employ modern riot shields as a crowd control tool and to protect themselves from relatively minor threats. These threats can be dangerous or lethal, such as thrown rocks, but a shield can greatly help reduce that risk. At the same time these forces are less interested in simply murdering everyone that is against them.
Generally there isn't a need for both. Either lethal force is used or it isn't. Having shields on all weapons would increase cost, air resistance, size, and weight. They would be less effective at their primary function.
I actually try to make cool-looking but impractical things in an MMO on purpose. The reason is because I could never do anything like that in real life, and doing it in an MMO is my only opportunity. So give me shield guns and 8’ swords and jet packs that would break your neck in real life. :D
Well I know it isn't really that realistic or practical but, here's the thing, screw realism and practicality, like I know there's not enough mad science and magic to go around where every single cop has a shield on their gun, but the mad scientists working with the police should be able to make a material that's weighs the same as plastic but is strong enough to deflect bullets, especially in a city like Titan City where the more fantastical guys have more freedom than in other parts of the world, like a SWAT officer should have a pretty good shield on his rifle even if a beat cop doesn't, and besides I want to be a Titan City super soldier cop that dual wields gun shields like it's nothing.
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/24.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
Then there's the gun General Whitaker used in James Bond's [i]The Living Daylights[/i]
[img]http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/5/50/Livday-cmdo2.jpg/601px-Livday-cmdo2.jpg[/img]
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I don't know if you have ever seen or played Rainbow Six Siege, but they use pretty much the same concept you have above in that game and it usually works out pretty well
[img=300x300]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/492394652507494899/4F0E254001E7387E5D08EEBF228E1457F2CC838B/[/img]
This is actually much preferred over the character with a full body shield
[img=300x300]https://i.redd.it/md11r33xvzgz.jpg[/img]
The reason for this is that the mobility is cut down so much. Blackbeard(the guy who uses the gun with shield) has a lot more versatility in combat. In the game it is quite bullet proof but it does break after enough damage, he just reloads it with a new shield when it breaks just like you would reload the gun itself
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
I think it would be cool to have a gun/shield combo, that a high-tech shield with a gun barrel coming out of the middle, like not one that a SWAT officer would use, but rather something like batman or Iron Man would use
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/24.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
And anything you can make a shield out of you can make a projectile out of, or at least be part of. Instead of copper jacketed bullets use this shield material, higher structural integrity from the jacket and higher total mass (for higher kinetic energy) from the lead core.
Arrgh, that scene gets on my nervers today. Why the hell didn't Bond shoot at the wrists/arms or the chest of that general. I mean, it just seams as Bond thought "ohh well, I can't shoot him in the head so then I can't injure him in any other way".
While certainly cool I don't think it would that practical. It would essentially be either locked to only attack targets right in front of the shield or it would be a huge weak point if you can aim the gun independently. Probably only really useful when you need to direct offense and defense in the exact same direction.
It's a superhero game!! Screw practicality!!
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/24.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
For that matter, why not have a 360 degree gun shield and play a Dalek.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
Cyclops... look at me.... yes....
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/24.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
EXTERMINATE..! CRIME!
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
[img]https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vL-Yy6pBOQg/WE2MrMs2llI/AAAAAAAGfvY/Tdz4V_rZbUw_uyT1Z-4FUCDicShv6VSCACLcB/s1600/mg-gouf-custom%2B%25281%2529.jpg[/img]
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
A “360 degree gun shield” is basically Iron Man. And I plan on my main being something like that. :)
Black, look at me.... this is a superhero game... There's a superhero who's an alien that look exactly like a human, who has super strength despite not everything breaking in his hands even though having superstrength would mean his hands would be like daggers that can cut through anything due to them being a small surface area with a lot of power behind them.... there is a guy who has learned every martial art known to man who can dodge bullets like it's nothing even though he's supposedly just a human.... there is a guy who can literally run faster than death!! The superhero genre isn't made better by adding more realism to it!! If you do then you have a work of media with no clear line of disbelief where an alien that looks like a human can have superstrength but not a GUNSHIELD!! I want my gunshield even if it's the least practical thing in the world!! I want to shoot lasers out of my eyes even though in the real world heat vision would permanently blind me due to a bright light not only near my open eyes, but coming out of them!! I want to run like the flash even though in the real world I would burn to death from friction burn!! I want my normal human ninja, who's wielding a katana and not even wearing a single shred of Kevlar to fight his way through a small mob of people with guns and then not only live but have enough energy to go for round two!! Superheroes is the the ultimate fantasy so JUST LET PEOPLE FANTASIZE!!
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/24.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
I'm down with a gun shield, just need a bigger gun.
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/25pdr_Field_Gun.jpg/635px-25pdr_Field_Gun.jpg[/img]
What are you on about?
How am not "letting" other people fantasize?
I have every right to express my opinions, views, and thoughts here as anyone else.
It's not about bringing [b]our[/b] realism into it but rather about being consistent to some form of "world rules", a.k.a the in-game world's reality (again, not our reality). I have no problem with being able to run super fast or being so highly trained one can dodge bullets or a god-like aliens in general but where I draw the line is where there are no rules at all. Having no boundaries, having no rules, having no "realism", is what leads to [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFakgB1tQGs]this[/url] or [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjgsnWtBQm0]this[/url] and frankly I think that is going too far when coupled with everything else superman can do because there is no consistency to the first one and no explanation that would be fitting inside that reality for the second one.
Maybe it's just my mind but to me powers have to make sense in some form. But if your (maybe not you specifically) fantasies are so fragile that they fall apart at first critique then asking me to shut up is not the right way to go.
Well then why are you saying that gunshields shouldn't be a thing in a game?
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/24.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
I... uhm... what!? That's how you interpreted it? Just because I don't think it's very practical doesn't mean that I don't think it should be in a game. I essentially gave one set of conditions where it could be practical.
I'm not asking you to shut up, arguing like this gets the devs a better idea of what the players want and I want to continue arguing. I'm not trying to get angry at you, and yes I do agree that fantasies need some realism, but not this much!! It should be something where everything can happen atleast once, not something where everything can happen all the time, or where somethings can never happen, and part of making fantasy is about making that balance, but I should still be able to make atleast one guy with a gun shield. Maybe we can make it so that it's an expensive prop, so that it's not common, like that's how CoX did it with their higher fantasy stuff that wasn't necessary. Make it a rare sight but don't say I can't ever have it. Sorry about early I was a little enthusiastic after seeing the incredibals 2.
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/24.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
right sorry, rushed through reading your comment, my true response is up above.
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/24.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
My gun shield idea is a shield that can be used as a drone in the air armed with laser beams like Star Trek
I accidently ate a bowl of radioactive soup....ok I guess that makes me a Soup-er Hero
Personally I don't really care how common it is and regardless of how impractical I think it is properly used it could be really cool. Though I have to take a page from, I think, Lothic in that a very basic version should be easy to access and the more intricate or ornate it gets the harder it is to acquire.
I guess... like I definatly don't want see a common mook using a gun shield, maybe an Archvillain/Hero, or an elite boss, or even a regular boss, but not a mook, especially if it's street side content. Over the top props and animations belong to PCs and the toughest of the tough only. It not only gives off a feeling of consistent reality, but a real sense of power to the player. Don't rook swatter #26 an animation where he flips over 16 times in midair and then bashes me in the skull, that's what I should be doing to him!!
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/24.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
Don't know if it's been mentioned already but since this is the CoT realm...why not have a force field projected from some point on the gun? It adds 0 weight to the actual gun and can be formed into however big or small of a shape that someone wants. It can look like any shield centered around anywhere on the gun from the end of the barrel to the trigger. And with aesthetic decoupling you could have it look however you wanted; a typical force field shield, a shield of fire/ice/lightning, a shield of wood/metal/concrete whatever. There is no reason, besides devs ability to make it happen, that this should not be a thing.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
A thought I have about this “throwing a shield a la captain America” bit:
I suddenly am envisioning creating a hero with the following:
Lethality (under the ranged sets) with the aesthetic of throwing a shield.
Invulnerability or Grit (whichever would fit more)
Parkour travel power
Super strength tertiary.
Not sure how doable that would be but the idea is striking in my mind’s eye. This would also require the gunner class being out.
Name: Safehouse
Ranger: Gunner
Primary: Force Blast
Secondary: Atrophic Aura
Tertiary: Kinetic Melee
Travel Power: Parkour
Status: Traveling. Following rumors of a huge city in Massachusetts that is teeming with supers.
I mean.. from what I understand, you can still pick tertiary powers from invuln and have your ranged "tank on a good day" character. That's my plan for Not-Quite-A-Corrupter Nightmare.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Same, I’m planning a Ranger on day 1. I’m stacking as much defense as I can to keep him from being too squishy, though he can’t be a Gunner.
Don't forget protection, resistance, and subtraction (as far as available in tertieries) :P
True this is certainly an option. The beauty of this system is that there is a loooot of flexibility. I’m going to be doing a similar thing with my ranger on day one, with the intent to one day respec into a gunner. IIRC the devs said respeccing your secondary set from “support” to “protection” will be an option. Can’t remember where I read it though.
Name: Safehouse
Ranger: Gunner
Primary: Force Blast
Secondary: Atrophic Aura
Tertiary: Kinetic Melee
Travel Power: Parkour
Status: Traveling. Following rumors of a huge city in Massachusetts that is teeming with supers.
Pretty sure the Devs have said that when you "respec" a character in CoT you'll be able to change your secondary and tertiary [i]powersets[/i] but I'm not entirely sure you'll be able to change your [i]archetype[/i] (i.e. allowed to change Ranger/Partisan to Ranger/Gunner). Being able to respec your "secondary archetype" (even if you had to keep your original primary powerset) would be a HUGE change for a respec.
This is still an improvement over CoH respecing - in that game you could only change your power choices within the same primary/secondary powersets.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Oh yeah I see what you mean. So for instance, I’m able to switch from “Lethality/Vampiric Emanation/Invulnerability” to “Lethality/Barrier Generation/Super Strength” but NOT to “Lethality/Invuln/Super Strength.”
I could have sworn that was possible but I’m probably misremembering and that was some sort of fever dream.
How would that be huge? Do you mean technically, or just as an in game option, or both?
Name: Safehouse
Ranger: Gunner
Primary: Force Blast
Secondary: Atrophic Aura
Tertiary: Kinetic Melee
Travel Power: Parkour
Status: Traveling. Following rumors of a huge city in Massachusetts that is teeming with supers.
Right. They basically don't want us to be able to create a classic "tankmage" via respecs and/or multiple builds.
No worries.
It wouldn't be hard from a technical software point of view. It would be "huge" from game design/balance point of view.
If the game effectively allowed you to respec "half" of your archetype/class like that then a player could essentially just have "One Character" that could do almost anything, especially with multiple builds. You wouldn't need to bother leveling up alts because your super-character could be respec'd to be almost anything you wanted.
Basically you can think of this as an "arbitrary design limitation" in order to force you to play more alts.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I think as long as respecifying a character to another archetype (primary) and specification (secondary) can be a cash shop item, then I don't see any objection to it. I might put a 24 hour cooldown on it for any individual character to keep it from abusing the game . I'm not quite sure what abuse could result yet, but it's worth considering. I would also expect that any augments and refinements would be lost with the powers in which they were slotted.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
The real "abuse" of this would come with our ability to have multiple builds per character.
The Devs have already said we're going to be able to have characters with at least more than one build "built" in CoT. Imagine having a tankmage via multiple builds. Even if they imposed a 15 minute cooldown timer between build changes (like CoH had) it would still allow you to have an effective uber-character. Who would play a bunch of alts if you could get a single character to do almost anything?
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I'm hoping that there will be an exception (even with limited availability or a cost in stars) for respecs into archetypes that didn't exist when the character was created. I'd hate to have to hold off on creating Goldenrod until the Support/Assault archetype is available.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
Well you do raise a valid concern where it comes to archetypes that literally don't exist at the launch of the game. Perhaps the Devs will allow something like one-way "super-respecs" to let players switch an old character into one of these brand new archetype combinations.
But I would suspect even if that was allowed it would be tightly controlled to prevent people from trying to exploit it to any degree. A "one-time only" switch for this purpose that would only apply to "non-launch archetypes" seems fair enough to me as long as it applied to all of a character's builds (to prevent some kind of weird hybrid tankmage scenario). Might still be a pain in the ass to implement so I wouldn't hold my breath on this regardless.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I would have zero objection to something like this if it happened. Safehouse is the MAIN main I want to play from launch; even though I have altitis there’s always that one character I play above all else. Although the launch ranger specification will suffice for the interim I know gunner is really the match for my concept. I would happily pay irl cash for a “one time only super respec.”
The piece about multiple builds was something that had not even crossed my mind. I confess I never utilized the builds in CoH and just ran with one. Maybe I missed out a bit there. I could see how being able to make such a drastic change on a dime could be... troublesome.
Struggling with a fight? Poof... I’m invulnerable now!
Name: Safehouse
Ranger: Gunner
Primary: Force Blast
Secondary: Atrophic Aura
Tertiary: Kinetic Melee
Travel Power: Parkour
Status: Traveling. Following rumors of a huge city in Massachusetts that is teeming with supers.
It wouldn't surprise me if, in addition to the cooldown timer, we were prevented from switching builds mid-mission.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
I only used multiple builds on a couple of my CoH characters and even then I rarely switched them. But since CoT respecs will allow us to switch out both our secondary and tertiary powersets I imagine the need (or at least usefulness) of having multiple builds will actually increase.
The way CoH handled this was that the only way you could switch builds was that you had to visit a trainer NPC to do it. This would technically let you switch builds "mid-mission" as long as you were willing to leave the mission to find the nearest trainer.
If you're interested in learning more about how [url=https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Multiple_Builds]CoH implemented multiple builds[/url] you can follow the link I just provided. I highly suspect that CoT will handle them pretty much the same way.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I had completely forgotten about that.
The only time I ever utilized multiple builds was on my Kheldian, and even then I didn't use it very often.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
Yeah I think I did a Peacebringer with a "human-only" build and a "tri-form" build. Since I was never a big PvPer the only other few times I used multiple builds on characters was mostly as a way to "store" extra super valuable enhancements. ;)
But as I said earlier I actually think having multiple builds in CoT will be more generally useful in CoT. Imagine for instance if you had a character using Ranged secondaries. You could switch from Force Blasting while solo to Atrophic Blasting while on a team.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
From the "[url=https://cityoftitans.com/content/what-we-can-do-powers]What we can do - Powers[/url]" announcement, under the Secondary Powers section: [i]Don’t like the Secondary you start with? You’ll get the other Sets in time, and be able to swap between them when you change your Build.[/i] Considering how the rest of that paragraph is framed it looks like they are talking about set types (specialization) rather than individual sets. Taking that into account then it essentially says that we not only can change the secondary set but also the specialization (set type) itself when respecing and in different builds, and Tannim effectively confirms it [url=https://cityoftitans.com/comment/118052#comment-118052]here[/url].
Didn't dig much deeper but I think they said later on that the primary set itself is still locked, not just classification.
Don't remember if it was in that same thread but I remember some arguments against it saying that it was unrealistic and it would break immersion. I can see it from a specific PoW but then in that same PoW the vast difference in costumes and aesthetics would be even more unrealistic and immersion breaking.
Right... we'll get the ability to get multiple builds based on your character level. That's what Tannim means when he says "[new] sets in time" and "at certain points in your character's progression". Re-read what's being said there: We'll only be getting a few secondary choices at launch but over time new secondary choices will be introduced (just like they added new ones in CoH). In nothing that you've quoted here is there any verbiage that implies people will be able to "swap specializations", only powersets.
Once again there's a huge difference between simply being able to change a character's secondary powerset and the entire secondary specialization. If CoT is going to allow respecs to change secondary specializations what's the point in forcing us to keep our original primary specialization as well? At that point the difference between that and an absolute FULL respec of everything is trivial.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Maybe if I had used the full paragraph from the announcement:
[i]Your Secondary Set is your Specialization. Each Secondary Set has its own style of play. Enforcers can become protective Bodyguards, or solo-focused Gladiators, or go for broke with an attack-focused Striker. [b]We’re only launching with one Secondary for each Primary, but each Secondary Set has its own constellation of Power Sets.[/b] That Bodyguard could chose from multiple armors. Don’t like the Secondary you start with? You’ll get the other Sets in time, and be able to swap between them when you change your Build.[/i]
That highly implies that they are talking about Specializations (as in set types) rather than individual sets.
Second.
The post that Tannim responded to in my second link talks specifically about going between specializations, and Tanim does not say "No!" to that. Further down in a [url=https://cityoftitans.com/comment/118069#comment-118069]post by Warcabbit[/url] he says "[i]Not all specializations will be available at launch, either, and this is our way of letting you play early, then choose to swap later.[/i]". That to me all but explicitly says we'll be able to swap specializations. This second [url=https://cityoftitans.com/comment/118156#comment-118156]post by Warcabbit[/url] explicitly talks about changing specializations. And now I see that that post also explicitly says you will not be able to change the primary set, not in type nor specific power-set.
No, it really doesn't imply that at all. I think you're taking the "speculation" about this "specialization respec" idea raised by Planet10 and running with it. Please re-read these things you're quoting again.
When it says, "Don’t like the [color=red]Secondary[/color] you start with? You’ll get the other [color=red]Sets[/color] in time, and be able to [color=red]swap between them[/color] when you change your Build" it's clearly talking about changing your secondary [b]powerset[/b], not [b]specialization[/b].
Tannim says when talking about new builds that "[we] can use a different Secondary [color=red]Set[/color], Mastery Powers, and Tertiary Powers." He very specifically says new secondary [b]Set[/b], not new secondary [b]Specialization[/b].
And sadly I think you're reading way too much into what Warcabbit means by "choose to swap later". Look, if I'm actually wrong about this I'll be the first to admit I was wrong - I'm just fairly sure I'm not at this point. Wishful thinking can make you interpret things that really aren't there. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I do not see a good reason for MWM to do this. Their core assertion surrounding content is that people will create alts and level them. If a player's concept can't happen at launch, adapt the concept or shelve it until it is possible.
"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit
I just offered the suggestion as a compromise. I even qualified this suggestion (in the part you didn't quote) by more or less implying it might not be worth the Devs' effort. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Just about the only reason I see myself doing this and having different secondaries would be if I had a character with a split personality where they had different abilities under each personality. Beyond that I don’t frequently feel the need/desire to alternate between two builds except perhaps between team/solo builds.
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
Thanks to blacke4dawn for the link.
"We’re only launching with one Secondary for each Primary, but each Secondary Set has its own constellation of Power Sets. That Bodyguard could chose from multiple armors. Don’t like the Secondary you start with? You’ll get the other Sets in time, and be able to swap between them when you change your Build."
It seems clear to me that it is not talking about the Power Set, but the Secondary Set. The first sentence I quoted above, clearly differentiates between Secondary Set and Power Set. The third sentence, which Lothic quoted and color-coded, says Secondary, not Power Set. I think it is more reasonable to assume that it means what it says, not that a mistake was made or that a word changed meaning after two sentences.
Better, of course, would be to get confirmation, one way or the other, from a dev, if available.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
Yes I can agree it would be nice if the Devs could chime in here with more data and/or confirmation. But other than that your post here is very confusing. You're mixing the words "power set" and "secondary set" in a very strange way.
Here are the facts in a nutshell - Every character will have the following:
[list]
[*]Primary Specialization - from this specialization you will choose which primary powerset you want
[*]Secondary Specialization - [color=red]from this specialization you will choose which secondary powerset you want[/color]
[*][color=red]Tertiary Powerset - this will be chosen from the collection of tertiary powersets available[/color]
[*][color=red]Mastery Powers - listed here just for completeness[/color]
[/list]
I will explain the red parts in a moment.
Now every Primary and Secondary Specialization in the game will have a corresponding collection of powersets to choose from based on those specializations. As we know once you've chosen a Primary Specialization (and primary powerset) for a character that choice is permanent and unchangeable. But whenever you do a respec (and/or create a new build) you're going to get the option to switch to another secondary powerset WITHIN your chosen Secondary Specialization. You don't get to switch to a completely new Secondary Specialization.
For the sake of clarity I've highlighted in red the only parts of this we get to change with a respec. Note the initial choice of Secondary Specialization is actually permanent - the only choice you have here with the respec is which powerset within that specialization you want to respec into.
I know these concepts can be confusing enough but if we can at least use the right terminology we'll be able to understand each other better.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Having a cash shop item that allows you to switch your secondary would be nice. Having a caveat that if you do you lose all your current builds in the switch.
So if you're ranged/support and you want to switch to Ranged/protection you'd lose any saved range/support builds on that character. They are a ranged/protection now.
If they do something like this I hope they'd hand out some free tokens to pre-existing characters that might want the new secondary. Possibly only pre-existing characters over a certain level.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
It’s common in MMOs to give a free respec if there’s a new build option that wasn’t available before. Sometimes, if there’s a dramatic change to the way a class is designed they’ll force you to respec because some of your previous abilities don’t exist anymore.
So there’s precedence for something like that at least.
No more strange than they themselves do. If they really talk only about the power sets themselves then how should we interpret that a Secondary (power-)Set has its own constellation of Power Sets? At least in that sentence it's clear they refer to Specialization when using Secondary. The other sentences are up to interpretation so we can't say for certain, but I hope their usage of Secondary is consistent there.
Actually Primary is Classification not a specialization, a.k.a what your class would be in a more traditional setting. That is it is what determines your overall class/role whole the Secondary (Specialization) determines how you go about fulfilling said class/role.
As far as we know yes.
Of course, though it doesn't help that MWM appears to be using the same term to refer to two different things.
Actually, the name of the secondary is [b]Specification[/b], not specialization.
But even with that, some of the older reference material still uses the term Classification. See the following table from October 2017 for example
[img]https://cityoftitans.com/sites/default/files/CoTats_0.png[/img]
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
WAIT A MINUTE! according to that chart...[u]is Commander/Mastermind going to be available at launch?[/u]
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
No. Only the underlined are slated for launch.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
Don't even get blasters to start. Want to be a blaster, forced to be a corruptor.
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