Blasphemous Questions: Could aesthetic decoupling be bad?

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Hero_Zero
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Blasphemous Questions: Could aesthetic decoupling be bad?

Many of us may believe that Aesthetic decoupling will differentiate COT from all other games and serve to make it outshine the masses. I certainly look forward to unprecedented levels of character customization. However, could there be a downside? I can think of two possibilities. Are there more?

1. Character creation: Getting a character just right in COH could take a very long time. With aesthetic decoupling in COT it could take considerably longer.

This potential issue can likely be resolved fairly easily and may already be accounted for as follows:

A: Allow customizations post character generation. If one can take default aesthetics and adjust them later then this becomes less of an issue.

B: Use defaults. As mentioned above defaults could shorten creation time. I suspect the devs have already taken this approach.

3. What is that: In COH an ice patch was clearly and ice patch. In later issues the color could be modified but the graphic was distinctive enough to allow easy identification. In COT that will likely not be the case. For instance it may be possible to make a "fire" guy that looks like fire but is all ice.

A?: I'm not sure how to address this one if it becomes a gameplay issue.

*Don't ask what happened to Number 2.

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So your going to be pointing

So your going to be pointing out flaws of things, people are looking foreword to.... not a bad idea, I mean its important to have humility about these things and be aware of the flaws of something. Keep up the good work :)

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We plan to have preset

We plan to have preset costumes, animations, and particle effects in the character creator to make it easy for people to put something together and play.

We don't make "ice sets" in that someone makes a "fire guy"' that is axtually all "ice".

The mention of ice slick - we wouldn't reference "ice"
In this case. The power would be a location area effect with knock down over time. We could add a forced emote: slide. What color and what it looks like is up to the player - but what will always be distinctive is the area of effect.


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Hero_Zero wrote:
Hero_Zero wrote:

Allow customizations post character generation. If one can take default aesthetics and adjust them later then this becomes less of a issue.

Why on earth would you think that any kind of character customization in this game would -not- be changeable post-character creation?

Hero_Zero wrote:

What is that... For instance it may be possible to make a "fire" guy that looks like fire but is all ice.

Sure it might make it hard to "automatically" know what powers are being used. But then again that adds some realism to the whole thing because there's no "law" that says everybody's powers -must- look identical. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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1. Pretty sure that we will

1. Pretty sure that we will be able to change our characters mere seconds (or however long it takes to travel to a "tailor") after we load into the game proper with any character, granted that we have the funds for it of course.

2. Yeah, don't see that as an issue since there really isn't any characteristic/mechanics of any power that is exclusive to any standard power type. To use your example, what mechanics could only be represented by ice? Or turn it around, what is it that makes a power "ice" and why can't it be represented by "fire" in some form?

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Hero_Zero wrote:
Hero_Zero wrote:

Many of us may believe that Aesthetic decoupling will differentiate COT from all other games and serve to make it outshine the masses. I certainly look forward to unprecedented levels of character customization. However, could there be a downside? I can think of two possibilities. Are there more?

Actually the least-obvious downside to having customization options like Aesthetic Decoupling in CoT is going to be classic irony of "the more we have the more we want" syndrome. Ever hear of a saying along the lines of "give them an inch and they'll take a yard"? That's exactly what's going to happen here.

Let me put it this way: Back when CoH first started we didn't even have color customization options for our powers. You choose your powersets and you got stuck with whatever color/animation choices were locked into those sets by the Devs. So worrying about "customizations" was pointless because it didn't even exist.

But now that CoT is going to offer us some degree of Aesthetic Decoupling we will forever be wanting MORE options. Sure we could get lucky and MWM might start us off with say 500 specific Aesthetic Decoupled animations choices. That'd be absolutely wonderful... except for the fact that some player somewhere will be able to make a legitimate case for a 501st option. Then when the Devs give us the 501st, someone will want a 502nd, and so on...

See what I mean with this? Once the Pandora's Box is opened just a little bit and we start getting -any- amount of customization options the desires of players playing this game will never end.

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I like the idea of having

I like the idea of having preset defaults for everything and then changing stuff from there if you want to. If that means starting everyone off with the basic tac ops suit and then having them change or not change using avatar creator tools, great.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I like the idea of having preset defaults for everything and then changing stuff from there if you want to. If that means starting everyone off with the basic tac ops suit and then having them change or not change using avatar creator tools, great.

Sure there's nothing wrong with having "default settings" for pretty much everything you can "customize" on a character.

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I try to be careful about

I try to be careful about assuming something will be all rainbows and unicorn farts. I also had the thought that aesthetic decoupling would make it difficult to figure out who was doing what. To that I had two observations: a) when teams in CoH cut loose, especially if they had controllers and blasters, all I could see was a giant sparkly field of death and b) it might prompt people to speak with one another to learn about the power/aesthetic.

Right now I can't think of any real downside to it.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I like the idea of having preset defaults for everything and then changing stuff from there if you want to. If that means starting everyone off with the basic tac ops suit and then having them change or not change using avatar creator tools, great.

As long as they have a varied enough pool of pre-sets and not just one "default", and that it's not an actual default but rather more of a quick-pick costume then I don't see anything against it.

I don't want to have to pick a base set and them modify it to my liking, I wan the option of making it completely from scratch.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

As long as they have a varied enough pool of pre-sets and not just one "default", and that it's not an actual default but rather more of a quick-pick costume then I don't see anything against it.

I don't want to have to pick a base set and them modify it to my liking, I wan the option of making it completely from scratch.

I honestly doubt we'd have a "choice" about the default settings. As soon as you open the character creator for the very first time all the sliders and choices will start off being set to "something" and that "something" will likely be the same for all of us.

Now if the Devs provide "default costume" buttons or "randomize" buttons that's perfectly fine. If you want to change EVERY SINGLE default setting to something else then knock yourself out with that. I'm just saying we're ALL going to start with some kind of default vanilla settings even if it's only the very first time you launch the game. *shrugs*

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Personally my concern with

Personally my concern with aesthetic decoupling is over generalization.

It's very cool to be able to choose emanation points, weapon types, colors and animations but it's also very easy for the powers to loose distinction. Multiple aesthetic options means no single aesthetic is fully represented.

With decoupling it's (theoretically) possible for a single set of powers to a sword aesthetic or a hand to hand aesthetic option. Attacking with a sword not only looks different than punching but also both would have different effects associated with each.

How can any set of powers cater to all aesthetic options without falling towards the middle in terms of effects? Maybe I am overthinking it. I just remember some of the aesthetic options in CoH that seemed so out of place with the powers they were associated with. For example the Frankengun, while ugly, fit the power set but the simple laser rifle just didn't IMO.

Some people can accept any level of anachronistic aesthetics but I personally have limits to what I enjoy.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Personally my concern with aesthetic decoupling is over generalization.
It's very cool to be able to choose emanation points, weapon types, colors and animations but it's also very easy for the powers to loose distinction. Multiple aesthetic options means no single aesthetic is fully represented.
With decoupling it's (theoretically) possible for a single set of powers to a sword aesthetic or a hand to hand aesthetic option. Attacking with a sword not only looks different than punching but also both would have different effects associated with each.
How can any set of powers cater to all aesthetic options without falling towards the middle in terms of effects? Maybe I am overthinking it. I just remember some of the aesthetic options in CoH that seemed so out of place with the powers they were associated with. For example the Frankengun, while ugly, fit the power set but the simple laser rifle just didn't IMO.
Some people can accept any level of anachronistic aesthetics but I personally have limits to what I enjoy.

I can kind of see the point you're making here but I'm not sure it will matter quite as much as you fear in the context of this game.

For instance your example of a "melee attack" power that would have either a sword aesthetic or a hand-to-hand aesthetic. Now while the net effect of those two "weapons" (sword vs. hand) would likely be quite different IRL (i.e. one could cut someone's head off while the other might brake a person's nose) in terms of damage done in the game they are both likely going to be abstracted down to "simple physical damage". It won't really matter what "weapon" is used in either case.

I think all the various damage type/effects are already going to be abstracted to a heavy degree in this game so it won't really matter what "animation" is used to convey the action of the attack. The aesthetic animation and/or emanation point simply becomes another detail to be "customized" and has no direct effect on the actual attack (just as there's no difference if the power flashes with red light or blue). It's purely cosmetic at that point.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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My MA/SR Scrapper ...

My MA/SR Scrapper ... Redlynne ... was always joking in groups that "My sneakers do more damage than your sword!" since I was doing Smashing damage while they were doing Lethal (because Lethal was THE most resisted damage type in the game, while Smashing was only the second most resisted).


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But, now Redlynne could light

But, now Redlynne could light her Vans on fire and do Burning Martial Arts damage!

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I would hope that the default

I would hope that the default options are set by the devs as such for each power or set etc, then if you want to make a toon with different graphics etc for their powers, you would select those off of a list of possible "available" options.

This would mean that there would be one "default" setting for each power, which is, by definition, the emote, emanation point, colors, sounds, particle effects, etc that the game uses for that power if you don't go in and change any of it.

Whether or not the player can change what their defaults are for each power (i.e. by changing a power around and then making the changes "sticky" so that they become the new default for that power for that player) does not matter to me. Nice to have, maybe, but not critical. Frankly, I don't see myself making a ton of similar toons such that making any one power activation suite the default is helping me in any big way. I'm probably going to have to reconfigure like EVERY power for EVERY toon I make anyway, so what's the point of changing the defaults?

That said it might be an idea to roll out the different options for each power in complete pre-packaged sets, like where you get the emanation point, colors, sounds, particles and emote all as one package and can then change stuff from there if you want to. You might have a "Ranged Cold" power set that gives you a power called "Frost Breath" . The effects for Frost Breath would likely be pre-set to exactly what that sounds like i.e. the power emanates from your mouth, does a frosty-looking cone effect in blue and white snowflake particles, and has your toon do an "I'm blowing cold air out of my mouth" emote with "whoosh" sounds. Then you can decide to change it to something that emanates from your eyes as a cyclops beam, does a solid green laserbeam with a "voip!" sound effect or something, etc. T Theoretically the cone would still be a cone, I think, but the colors, sounds, etc would all be things you could change individually from that starting point.

If the above is what you meant by "different defaults" I can see that being useful. On the other hand the last thing I want to do is have to go in and select what the defaults are every time I make a new toon so that I can then change everything AGAIN to make the toon the way I want it from there.

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Honestly, the example with

Honestly, the example with the "ice slick" makes me nervous. I feel like you guys think you have broken a barrier with this aesthetic decoupling but it seems to me that is just a cheap way of making a generic power effect that people can use differently just by changing the tint? From what I recall, this is one of the reasons I never played WoW. The powers were all the same effect just different colors. If you were to lay down a sheet of ice you would get cold air effects, maybe small chunks of ice flying about and the layers of ice stacking on top of each other. If you were to lay down a fire patch, you get something completely different including the waves of heat, globules of melted ground etc. I get that it is more work, but COH did it. Each power seemed to be unique.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Honestly, the example with the "ice slick" makes me nervous. I feel like you guys think you have broken a barrier with this aesthetic decoupling but it seems to me that is just a cheap way of making a generic power effect that people can use differently just by changing the tint? From what I recall, this is one of the reasons I never played WoW. The powers were all the same effect just different colors. If you were to lay down a sheet of ice you would get cold air effects, maybe small chunks of ice flying about and the layers of ice stacking on top of each other. If you were to lay down a fire patch, you get something completely different including the waves of heat, globules of melted ground etc. I get that it is more work, but COH did it. Each power seemed to be unique.

It all comes down to the fact everyone wants something different. I prefer the idea that you can make your character "unique" by having numerous different combinations of aesthetic set-up.

For example, if the type of abilities/effects of them you wanted were the wrong type of set and a number of people here are trying to remake their CoH characters, you would all be going mental as other have said around. The more you give, the more people take.

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Honestly, the example with the "ice slick" makes me nervous. I feel like you guys think you have broken a barrier with this aesthetic decoupling but it seems to me that is just a cheap way of making a generic power effect that people can use differently just by changing the tint? From what I recall, this is one of the reasons I never played WoW. The powers were all the same effect just different colors. If you were to lay down a sheet of ice you would get cold air effects, maybe small chunks of ice flying about and the layers of ice stacking on top of each other. If you were to lay down a fire patch, you get something completely different including the waves of heat, globules of melted ground etc. I get that it is more work, but COH did it. Each power seemed to be unique.
It all comes down to the fact everyone wants something different. I prefer the idea that you can make your character "unique" by having numerous different combinations of aesthetic set-up.
For example, if the type of abilities/effects of them you wanted were the wrong type of set and a number of people here are trying to remake their CoH characters, you would all be going mental as other have said around. The more you give, the more people take.

You can say they cant please everyone, but COH sort of did it. I remember the fire blast looking like fire, with brightness and flares and fire spilling off onto the ground. The ice blast looked like ice as well. You cant take a fireblast and paint it blue and call it ice. If that is what CoT is doing then that is a shame.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Deathwatch101 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Honestly, the example with the "ice slick" makes me nervous. I feel like you guys think you have broken a barrier with this aesthetic decoupling but it seems to me that is just a cheap way of making a generic power effect that people can use differently just by changing the tint? From what I recall, this is one of the reasons I never played WoW. The powers were all the same effect just different colors. If you were to lay down a sheet of ice you would get cold air effects, maybe small chunks of ice flying about and the layers of ice stacking on top of each other. If you were to lay down a fire patch, you get something completely different including the waves of heat, globules of melted ground etc. I get that it is more work, but COH did it. Each power seemed to be unique.
It all comes down to the fact everyone wants something different. I prefer the idea that you can make your character "unique" by having numerous different combinations of aesthetic set-up.
For example, if the type of abilities/effects of them you wanted were the wrong type of set and a number of people here are trying to remake their CoH characters, you would all be going mental as other have said around. The more you give, the more people take.
You can say they cant please everyone, but COH sort of did it. I remember the fire blast looking like fire, with brightness and flares and fire spilling off onto the ground. The ice blast looked like ice as well. You cant take a fireblast and paint it blue and call it ice. If that is what CoT is doing then that is a shame.

We aren't making fire blast or ice blast.

We make anranged attack doing damage over time.

Tim want it to be fire, joe wants it to be ice. Mike wants it to be radiation shooting out of a sci-fi ray gun.

The entire point of aesthetic decoupling is that you choose a playnstyle hat you like playing and can make it look like how you want to fulfill your character concept.


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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

You can say they cant please everyone, but COH sort of did it. I remember the fire blast looking like fire, with brightness and flares and fire spilling off onto the ground. The ice blast looked like ice as well. You cant take a fireblast and paint it blue and call it ice. If that is what CoT is doing then that is a shame.

I imagine they are going to try their best to give us multiple "effects" that we'll be able to call fire, ice, radiation, etc. based on how we use/color them.

But let's be a tad bit realistic here: Based on the fact that they are trying to build this game on a "part-time, shoestring budget" I'm going to assume there's going to be a good deal of "taking a fireblast and painting it blue and calling it ice" re-use going on here, at least until after launch where they might have time to add further "generic aesthetic effects" that'll add to the overall inventory of possibilities. I'm still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt it'll actually be more workable than you currently realize. I would simply urge you to not automatically assume this is all going to suck until you actually get to see it in the game. If it "sucks" at that point then feel free to say so.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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If it sucks you're getting an

If it sucks you're getting an, "I Told you so" Lothic.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

If it sucks you're getting an, "I Told you so" Lothic.

*shrugs* We're going to be comparing arguably the best game graphics from 2004 versus a set of "generic" graphics from 2018. I'll take my chances...

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"In preparing for battle I

"In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable."
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This is a useful thought exercise, but I can't find much downside to esthetic decoupling. On the other hand, I see it as CoT's big edge over the other CoH successors.

Those who play together for any length of time will learn one another's powers. In big groups of strangers, who can keep track of what everyone else is doing, anyway?

It might be more of an issue in PvP, but I don't go there, in any sense of the phrase, so I leave that matter to others better qualified.

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I still cant get past the

I still cant get past the fact that they would rather use, for example, a standard looking beam that could be interpreted as fire, ice, or radiation just based on the fact if it is red, blue or green and not have a specific animation effect for each type of power. If I see an ice blast, I expect shards of ice, snow, slush being thrown at my enemies especially with today's technology. I'm willing to wait it out and see how the abilities look further down the road, but really....

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There are other downsides to

There are other downsides to aesthetic decoupling. The biggest downside to me is the lack of any characteristics inherent to aesthetic choices. Fire being fire, ice being ice, and so on. The combinations of oil slick with fire, etc. are no longer possible and neither are resistances.

So a fire attack upon a magma elemental does as much damage as a fire attack against a straw-filled scarecrow does as much damage as a water attack or a spirit attack or any other aesthetic choice of attack for that powerset.

That to me is the biggest downside to aesthetic decoupling. Its a downside I find quite vexing, but one I am able to live with. In return, they have given us Physical, Energy and Exotic damage types, and pretections and resistances accordingly, so there is still some vulnerabilities and strengths to exploit, they just won't be tied to what your powers look like.


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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

There are other downsides to aesthetic decoupling. The biggest downside to me is the lack of any characteristics inherent to aesthetic choices. Fire being fire, ice being ice, and so on. The combinations of oil slick with fire, etc. are no longer possible and neither are resistances.
So a fire attack upon a magma elemental does as much damage as a fire attack against a straw-filled scarecrow does as much damage as a water attack or a spirit attack or any other aesthetic choice of attack for that powerset.
That to me is the biggest downside to aesthetic decoupling. Its a downside I find quite vexing, but one I am able to live with. In return, they have given us Physical, Energy and Exotic damage types, and pretections and resistances accordingly, so there is still some vulnerabilities and strengths to exploit, they just won't be tied to what your powers look like.

You brought up another good point and it is a damn shame that wont be happening.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I still cant get past the fact that they would rather use, for example, a standard looking beam that could be interpreted as fire, ice, or radiation just based on the fact if it is red, blue or green and not have a specific animation effect for each type of power. If I see an ice blast, I expect shards of ice, snow, slush being thrown at my enemies especially with today's technology. I'm willing to wait it out and see how the abilities look further down the road, but really....

Uh - unless I missed something big they ARE having specific animation FX such as blasts of flame, shards of ice, exploding arrows and so forth - that's the whole point of the system - being able to pick the specific animation for the power.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

There are other downsides to aesthetic decoupling. The biggest downside to me is the lack of any characteristics inherent to aesthetic choices. Fire being fire, ice being ice, and so on. The combinations of oil slick with fire, etc. are no longer possible and neither are resistances.
So a fire attack upon a magma elemental does as much damage as a fire attack against a straw-filled scarecrow does as much damage as a water attack or a spirit attack or any other aesthetic choice of attack for that powerset.
That to me is the biggest downside to aesthetic decoupling. Its a downside I find quite vexing, but one I am able to live with. In return, they have given us Physical, Energy and Exotic damage types, and pretections and resistances accordingly, so there is still some vulnerabilities and strengths to exploit, they just won't be tied to what your powers look like.

I agree. I also liked my cold-dealing characters in CoH being able to "attack" certain fires in the game world to put them out. That said, this game will just be handling things differently in that regard - will be interesting to see how it all shakes out in gameplay.

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I still cant get past the fact that they would rather use, for example, a standard looking beam that could be interpreted as fire, ice, or radiation just based on the fact if it is red, blue or green and not have a specific animation effect for each type of power. If I see an ice blast, I expect shards of ice, snow, slush being thrown at my enemies especially with today's technology. I'm willing to wait it out and see how the abilities look further down the road, but really....
Uh - unless I missed something big they ARE having specific animation FX such as blasts of flame, shards of ice, exploding arrows and so forth - that's the whole point of the system - being able to pick the specific animation for the power.

All they've stated is you can change the look. That to me doesn't specify particle effects but if that is the case then I do take it back. But if its just color I stand by what I said.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I still cant get past the fact that they would rather use, for example, a standard looking beam that could be interpreted as fire, ice, or radiation just based on the fact if it is red, blue or green and not have a specific animation effect for each type of power. If I see an ice blast, I expect shards of ice, snow, slush being thrown at my enemies especially with today's technology. I'm willing to wait it out and see how the abilities look further down the road, but really....

I don't think it's going to be a matter of them WANTING to keep things relatively generic. I simply think it might be a matter of expediency given the situation they are working with. Sometimes in software development you have to make compromises... relying on generic graphics effects for powers could very well be one of them in this case.

Remember that none of us players actually know what we're going to get from this yet - for all we know we'll still end up with a number of options that meets or even exceeds what CoH provided. Remember CoH actually didn't provide -that- many unique power animations/effects and many of those, if you looked closely enough, were actually recycled/reused for multiple powers. Basically ALL games do that to some degree to save time.

I simply think you're being far too pessimistic about an area of the game we know next to nothing about yet. *shrugs*

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Interdictor wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I still cant get past the fact that they would rather use, for example, a standard looking beam that could be interpreted as fire, ice, or radiation just based on the fact if it is red, blue or green and not have a specific animation effect for each type of power. If I see an ice blast, I expect shards of ice, snow, slush being thrown at my enemies especially with today's technology. I'm willing to wait it out and see how the abilities look further down the road, but really....
Uh - unless I missed something big they ARE having specific animation FX such as blasts of flame, shards of ice, exploding arrows and so forth - that's the whole point of the system - being able to pick the specific animation for the power.
All they've stated is you can change the look. That to me doesn't specify particle effects but if that is the case then I do take it back. But if its just color I stand by what I said.

Yes - unless I completely missed something it includes particle effects. For instance if you take Atrophic Blast you can make it look like you are shooting fire. You can color the fire green if you want and have it emit from your hands, or maybe your mouth, or maybe a prop that looks like a flamethrower?

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I still cant get past the fact that they would rather use, for example, a standard looking beam that could be interpreted as fire, ice, or radiation just based on the fact if it is red, blue or green and not have a specific animation effect for each type of power. If I see an ice blast, I expect shards of ice, snow, slush being thrown at my enemies especially with today's technology. I'm willing to wait it out and see how the abilities look further down the road, but really....
I don't think it's going to be a matter of them WANTING to keep things relatively generic. I simply think it might be a matter of expediency given the situation they are working with. Sometimes in software development you have to make compromises... relying on generic graphics effects for powers could very well be one of them in this case.
Remember that none of us players actually know what we're going to get from this yet - for all we know we'll still end up with a number of options that meets or even exceeds what CoH provided. Remember CoH actually didn't provide -that- many unique power animations/effects and many of those, if you looked closely enough, were actually recycled/reused for multiple powers. Basically ALL games do that to some degree to save time.
I simply think you're being far too pessimistic about an area of the game we know next to nothing about yet. *shrugs*

That's possibly true but I really want no NEED this game to be perfect. I miss having a virtual home lol. I don't want to be let down...And I don't know if you caught that recent video SoH released with their lightning power set(id link to it if I wasn't at work), it was just such a disappointment. It all looked so poorly made. I don't want CoT to follow them in that aspect.

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Interdictor wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I still cant get past the fact that they would rather use, for example, a standard looking beam that could be interpreted as fire, ice, or radiation just based on the fact if it is red, blue or green and not have a specific animation effect for each type of power. If I see an ice blast, I expect shards of ice, snow, slush being thrown at my enemies especially with today's technology. I'm willing to wait it out and see how the abilities look further down the road, but really....
Uh - unless I missed something big they ARE having specific animation FX such as blasts of flame, shards of ice, exploding arrows and so forth - that's the whole point of the system - being able to pick the specific animation for the power.
All they've stated is you can change the look. That to me doesn't specify particle effects but if that is the case then I do take it back. But if its just color I stand by what I said.
Yes - unless I completely missed something it includes particle effects. For instance if you take Atrophic Blast you can make it look like you are shooting fire. You can color the fire green if you want and have it fire from your hands, or maybe your mouth, or maybe a prop that looks like a flamethrower?

Ok, well that is friggin cool! :)

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Interdictor wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Interdictor wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I still cant get past the fact that they would rather use, for example, a standard looking beam that could be interpreted as fire, ice, or radiation just based on the fact if it is red, blue or green and not have a specific animation effect for each type of power. If I see an ice blast, I expect shards of ice, snow, slush being thrown at my enemies especially with today's technology. I'm willing to wait it out and see how the abilities look further down the road, but really....
Uh - unless I missed something big they ARE having specific animation FX such as blasts of flame, shards of ice, exploding arrows and so forth - that's the whole point of the system - being able to pick the specific animation for the power.
All they've stated is you can change the look. That to me doesn't specify particle effects but if that is the case then I do take it back. But if its just color I stand by what I said.
Yes - unless I completely missed something it includes particle effects. For instance if you take Atrophic Blast you can make it look like you are shooting fire. You can color the fire green if you want and have it fire from your hands, or maybe your mouth, or maybe a prop that looks like a flamethrower?
Ok, well that is friggin cool! :)

That was kind of my point - let's not assume the worst until we actually start seeing more examples. I'm betting even "vaguely generic" graphics produced by UE4 will still look pretty good regardless.

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Yes, I'm fairly certain that

Yes, I'm fairly certain that the animated effects for a given attack (e.g. ranged medium damage cone with DoT) are meant to be selectable (e.g. "wide beam of light" versus "shards of material" versus "spreading flame" versus "electric arcs") as well as colorable. With aesthetic decoupling, the development effort to make each effect is spent in an extremely efficient manner - a new effect can be linked as a valid selection in so many powersets and thus made available to nearly every character/player.

My only questions regarding aethetic decoupling are:
1. How will the animated effects on the target be determined - matched to the chosen effect of the "projectile" (electric arc to target results in static bursts across the target's body)? or separately customized (electric arc to target could then animate a decoupled effect on the target's body; player's choice of static bursts / a mist / a flaming aura / encased in a block of material / etc)?
2. What will be available at launch, and how quickly will more particle effect options be added? I am not anticipating a dev-sourced answer until beta. We can do our own rough estimates once we start to see combat animations in the integration build on Twitch streams...

On the subject of downsides, I will not be able to as easily tell from the animations whether I've been buffed or debuffed and by whom. However, I imagine this will be mitigated in PvE by the enemies having fairly standard attacks and color schemes, so that any "weird" combinations can be interpreted as buffs coming from players (or location AoE debuffs that enemies should be drawn toward), and I can fairly quickly learn whose powers are whose. To ensure that the confusion can be eliminated entirely, I believe we've been promised a way to shut off other player's custom animations, to prevent chaos when someone tries to make their location AoE powers look like some raid boss' charge-up attacks.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

There are other downsides to aesthetic decoupling. The biggest downside to me is the lack of any characteristics inherent to aesthetic choices. Fire being fire, ice being ice, and so on. The combinations of oil slick with fire, etc. are no longer possible and neither are resistances.
So a fire attack upon a magma elemental does as much damage as a fire attack against a straw-filled scarecrow does as much damage as a water attack or a spirit attack or any other aesthetic choice of attack for that powerset.
That to me is the biggest downside to aesthetic decoupling. Its a downside I find quite vexing, but one I am able to live with. In return, they have given us Physical, Energy and Exotic damage types, and pretections and resistances accordingly, so there is still some vulnerabilities and strengths to exploit, they just won't be tied to what your powers look like.

I never particularly thought about this aspect of it, I feel like elemental damage not playing a role would be the only downside that I could see with the Aesthetic decoupling system. It will definitely be interesting to see how they deal with this later on. It takes away a bit of strategy but I feel like it is something I could get over while having all the other benefits of customization

A possible future(way past launch) solution if this was a concern is having a button with multiple toggles for each individual power or for the whole set to choose what type of elemental damage you would want be done. Example: If your weapon of choice is a sword, one attack is an "ice blade"(Aesthetic= Ice, Elemental toggle: Ice) and another attack is a "flame blade"(Aesthetic= Flame, Elemental toggle: Fire), they will end up having different effectiveness depending on if you are fighting a magma or ice boss.

This would lead into further customization, another Example: If you wanted your sword to look like fire but actually have ice effects, just do Aesthetic= Fire, Elemental toggle: Ice

And then of course you could have the default toggle to be No Elemental Effects

The toggle buttons could cycle through symbols similar to this:

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I suspect MWM has thought

I suspect MWM has thought about these aspects pretty thoroughly at this point, so I'm not overly concerned.

As an example, quite some time ago I raised my concern about the idea of aesthetic decoupling: that by putting more emphasis on aesthetic differences the game would provide us less functional variety than the predecessor did.

In the old game, the broadsword and battleaxe power sets were very, very similar, but they still had enough differences that they didn't quite play the same. I posited that in CoT these two sets could end up being exactly the same functionally, with the only difference being the animations. If this is correct and applies to other similar power sets, my fear was that we'd end up with a game that looks more varied than the old one but actually plays more generically.

When I raised this concern, Tannim helped me look at the issue from the other side by saying the ultimate effect is that AD will actually force MWM to make power sets *more* varied. CoT won't be able to simply tweak a few powers, change the graphics of the weapon, and present that to us as a new power set; every new power set will have to really work differently from existing ones.

I suspect that once we get our hands on the game we'll find most of our concerns are already being looked at from such an alternate perspective by MWM. But it can't hurt to keep discussing them here in case we come up with one they've missed up till now.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Interdictor wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Interdictor wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I still cant get past the fact that they would rather use, for example, a standard looking beam that could be interpreted as fire, ice, or radiation just based on the fact if it is red, blue or green and not have a specific animation effect for each type of power. If I see an ice blast, I expect shards of ice, snow, slush being thrown at my enemies especially with today's technology. I'm willing to wait it out and see how the abilities look further down the road, but really....
Uh - unless I missed something big they ARE having specific animation FX such as blasts of flame, shards of ice, exploding arrows and so forth - that's the whole point of the system - being able to pick the specific animation for the power.
All they've stated is you can change the look. That to me doesn't specify particle effects but if that is the case then I do take it back. But if its just color I stand by what I said.
Yes - unless I completely missed something it includes particle effects. For instance if you take Atrophic Blast you can make it look like you are shooting fire. You can color the fire green if you want and have it fire from your hands, or maybe your mouth, or maybe a prop that looks like a flamethrower?
Ok, well that is friggin cool! :)

Tannims reply to my post here confirms that particle effects will be a separate choice from a powers base looks. Exactly what those particle effects will entail is not said but my guess is that includes the details that would differentiate a power between having ice and fire aesthetics.

Aesthetic decupling in CoT will not be about just re-coloring but rather "deconstructing" the aesthetics into a few components that can then be mixed and matched at will. This will ensure highest level of customization with the least amount of dev-time spent on it due to the high reusability of the different components.

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Scott Jackson wrote:
Scott Jackson wrote:

Yes, I'm fairly certain that the animated effects for a given attack (e.g. ranged medium damage cone with DoT) are meant to be selectable (e.g. "wide beam of light" versus "shards of material" versus "spreading flame" versus "electric arcs") as well as colorable. With aesthetic decoupling, the development effort to make each effect is spent in an extremely efficient manner - a new effect can be linked as a valid selection in so many powersets and thus made available to nearly every character/player.
My only questions regarding aethetic decoupling are:
1. How will the animated effects on the target be determined - matched to the chosen effect of the "projectile" (electric arc to target results in static bursts across the target's body)? or separately customized (electric arc to target could then animate a decoupled effect on the target's body; player's choice of static bursts / a mist / a flaming aura / encased in a block of material / etc)?
2. What will be available at launch, and how quickly will more particle effect options be added? I am not anticipating a dev-sourced answer until beta. We can do our own rough estimates once we start to see combat animations in the integration build on Twitch streams...
On the subject of downsides, I will not be able to as easily tell from the animations whether I've been buffed or debuffed and by whom. However, I imagine this will be mitigated in PvE by the enemies having fairly standard attacks and color schemes, so that any "weird" combinations can be interpreted as buffs coming from players (or location AoE debuffs that enemies should be drawn toward), and I can fairly quickly learn whose powers are whose. To ensure that the confusion can be eliminated entirely, I believe we've been promised a way to shut off other player's custom animations, to prevent chaos when someone tries to make their location AoE powers look like some raid boss' charge-up attacks.

1. The hit fx on the target is based on the particle fx chosen by the player for their power.

2. I can't give an exact number for particle fx but consider that the avarar creator and the vast amount of customization of both the character and powers is one of our major features, there will be quite a range of options.

3. Downsides of buffs and debuffs - don't forget about UI icons noting what is being applied tomyour character. Yes, after a while, you should be familiar with various npc factions and their power aesthetics.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yes, after a while, you should be familiar with various npc factions and their power aesthetics.

I call that "learning the game" when I play.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yes, after a while, you should be familiar with various npc factions and their power aesthetics.

I call that "learning the game" when I play.

Yeah the idea that aesthetic decoupling might make it harder to know what buffs/debuffs are being used by either PCs or NPCs doesn't bother me too much. I figure if an enemy is casting something on me it's probably "bad" and if a teammate is casting something on me it's probably "good". Sometimes things don't need to be made super-complex. ;)

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Agreed with the last several

Agreed with the last several posts.

No decision is ALL good. Every choice is a trade off with good and bad consequences. But AD really seems to bring many substantial benefits with mostly minor drawbacks. All and all a very good tradeoff and decision!

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I can kind of see the point you're making here but I'm not sure it will matter quite as much as you fear in the context of this game.

For instance your example of a "melee attack" power that would have either a sword aesthetic or a hand-to-hand aesthetic. Now while the net effect of those two "weapons" (sword vs. hand) would likely be quite different IRL (i.e. one could cut someone's head off while the other might brake a person's nose) in terms of damage done in the game they are both likely going to be abstracted down to "simple physical damage". It won't really matter what "weapon" is used in either case.

I think all the various damage type/effects are already going to be abstracted to a heavy degree in this game so it won't really matter what "animation" is used to convey the action of the attack. The aesthetic animation and/or emanation point simply becomes another detail to be "customized" and has no direct effect on the actual attack (just as there's no difference if the power flashes with red light or blue). It's purely cosmetic at that point.

I suppose it's my fault. I wrote that post in minutes as I was eating lunch so it isn't exactly clear what I was talking about.

I was trying to express my concerns over the way a power conveys a sense of the style of attack. It isn't just about the damage or visuals. It's also about how an attack chain strings together, the secondary effects, how long a power takes to activate or recharge and other smaller details.

Don't get me wrong, visuals go a long way (steam workshop reskins have breathed new life into countless old games for me) but it's the other things that really make things unique.

My frankengun example was probably too abstract to be useful so lets look at the Battle Axe and War Mace sets for CoH. In many ways those two sets were very similar, recycled animations, knock effects and so on. But they played different because there were small variations due to theme. Varied activation times, recharges, end costs, secondary effects and so on. With aesthetic decoupling those distinctions are lost. Not only that, but possibly Kung Fu, boxing, electric batons, Capoeira, Savate or even Captain Caveman club fighting will all play the same as a War Mace and Battle Axe.

I am not saying this is a dealbreaker for me. It's possible that with enough sets to choose from I will be hard pressed to find an anachronistic aesthetic I am unhappy with. It's also possible that with power pool options (can't remember what CoT is calling them), augments and so on, I can tweak things enough to individualize each aesthetic to avoid that feeling of 'sameness' in the way sets play.
I just think that aesthetic decoupling is a push to the middle and that power individualization is likely a casualty of that design choice.

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Thank you for the response,

Thank you for the response, Tannim.

Yes, I should have mentioned the UI status effect icons as a useful tool in an aesthetically decoupled world...though to be honest, in a raid setting or even a decent-sized team, MMO buff/debuff displays can become unreadable. Maybe CoT will give players more control over that display, or somehow bring the significant effects to the player's attention without distracting from the center-of-screen combat? Hmm.

I generally agree that learning the game (and having aspects of the game encourage skill/knowledge) is a good thing. I just want to ensure that players are given the tools to distinguish good/bad effects where possible, and that what they've learned won't change the moment they switch to a new team with players using completely different aesthetic choices. We can probably learn buff/debuffs fairly easily when they are targeted directly at us. I'm less certain about location AoEs. With them, it tends to be less obvious who did the casting, since they may form almost out of thin air (no effect traced from source to targeted location) and could be cast by someone off-screen or behind a wall. Do we try to give players a clue - something visible in the AoE patch - to help? If we do, is this some sort of shading that makes "dangerous" AoE locations look different than safe ones? is it a certain iconic shape built into the AoE patch? a slight difference in the decal texture? a hint given when hovering the cursor over the location?

Even CoH had rare examples of location AoE uncertainty - how would a new player figure out that a quicksand patch came from an enemy mage rather than a friendly earth controller, besides walking into it and seeing that they do/don't get a slow debuff? If they saw it being activated, great - when the source is known, the problem is solved...otherwise they weren't given a clue. With aesthetic decoupling this type of situation could occur more often, where friendly and enemy location AoEs can be made to look very similar...accidentally or as a type of griefing. I'm prepared to wait to find out if it's a real issue, but I had to at least mention the possibility ahead of time, and offer some solution ideas.

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Maybe create off-server

Maybe create off-server (offline), save and import(or validate) when connecting ...;)

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Think I see where you are

Think I see where you are coming from BB but there are other things to make up for it.

The Tier 3 and 7 exclusive choice.
Augments/Refinements. Not so sure about activation time but certainly sure about recharge and cost. heck, they've even stated that we would be able to change damage type (wouldn't surprise me if also secondary effect) and even single<->AoE targeting.
Masteries. How you play a set can dramatically change based on masteries.
Probably some more things I can't remember.

Plus I think a significant part of what made WM and BA feel so different compared to each other was the fine tuned animations for the respective sets. Never really played BA or WM so can't say how different they felt but to me it sounds better for the long haul to make really distinct sets rather than have several that are just flavor variations of each other.

Ohh, and power pool sets are called tertiaries.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

I suppose it's my fault. I wrote that post in minutes as I was eating lunch so it isn't exactly clear what I was talking about.

Don't worry - I'm still pretty sure I know what you're talking about here.

Brainbot wrote:

I was trying to express my concerns over the way a power conveys a sense of the style of attack. It isn't just about the damage or visuals. It's also about how an attack chain strings together, the secondary effects, how long a power takes to activate or recharge and other smaller details.

The Devs of CoT have already tried to make it clear that they are mindful of things like attack chains, relative animation speeds and other minutia related to how the powers of a powerset relate and work with each other. Those things are going to be beyond the direct "tinkering" of the players - theoretically all of those things will re-gear and self-adjust on their own. Now obviously it remains to be seen if they can actually pull that all off with the aesthetic decoupling, but they claim it'll all work so I'm willing to give it a chance first. It's always possible that players will discover that if they use certain aesthetic options they can get a given powerset to react differently on a functional level. If that's the case we may simply use that as another avenue for min/maxing.

Brainbot wrote:

I just think that aesthetic decoupling is a push to the middle and that power individualization is likely a casualty of that design choice.

Everything about this is a pro/con compromise. The powersets in CoH worked relatively well because they were "hand crafted" and hardwired to work properly as standalone creations. The downside of course is that anything even remotely like aesthetic decoupling would have likely been impossible for them to do in CoH without completely ripping the game apart and starting over again.

Now will CoT's aesthetic decoupling cause its powersets to have to be more "cookie cutter" to work? Maybe. I honestly don't think I fear the consequences of that as much as you seem to do, but who knows maybe your fears will be justified. As I said I'm willing to see how it works first before I judge too harshly.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I understand the concern over

I understand the concern over the set templates and speeds making sets feell too similar to another.

The differences are that there are 4 different focused play style for each basic play style. Within the focused olay style, not every set will have the same speed setting in its design.

You will have differences in play through the t3 and t7 choices.

And differences in set mechanics. For example, both Tactical Combat and Fighting Prowess are within the same Basic and Focused Play Style, even have the same speed setting. Yet, because the two sets have different mechanics, they will play differently.

Arguably, Foghting Prowess will be a bit easier while Tactical Combat will take more forethought to maximise its combos. Fighting Prowess isn't reliant on Momentum, while Tactical Combat has to manage the resource.

Even if two people used the exact same aesthetics for both sets, they would still play differently.

Further distinctions in how younplay your character will be in what Mastery Powers you choose.


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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Think I see where you are coming from BB but there are other things to make up for it.
The Tier 3 and 7 exclusive choice.
Augments/Refinements. Not so sure about activation time but certainly sure about recharge and cost. heck, they've even stated that we would be able to change damage type (wouldn't surprise me if also secondary effect) and even single<->AoE targeting.
Masteries. How you play a set can dramatically change based on masteries.
Probably some more things I can't remember.

I said that there might be things that offer enough change to limit the sameness of a set. I even specifically pointed out augments.

But as far as I understand things, masterys don't change the powers, they change the character. It's like a new class, or rather sub-class, like a Brute and Tank from CoH. Yet it's not, because there were subtle differences in the power set make up between a Brute Battle Axe and a Tank Battle Axe in CoH that are now gone because of the genericizing due to aesthetic decoupling.

blacke4dawn wrote:

Plus I think a significant part of what made WM and BA feel so different compared to each other was the fine tuned animations for the respective sets. Never really played BA or WM so can't say how different they felt but to me it sounds better for the long haul to make really distinct sets rather than have several that are just flavor variations of each other..

Actually I picked those two sets for my example because for the most part their animations were identical, right down to their activation times. It was the little differences that made them play different.
Flavor variations are what make things great. Replace the orange juice in a screwdriver with apple juice and you get an appletini (might be a bad example, appletinis suck). So how about coke and pepsi, they are both colas but I can tell the difference.
That's my entire point. It's the small variations in powers that make them unique, not just the way they look. Take range for example. A spear has a longer range than a club, how does a 'one size fits all' power design properly convey the added reach of a spear from a club when both are offered as options for a power?
How about the uniqueness of a shield defense vs bullet proof skin? The use of a Rapier and Main-gauche vs the twin batons of Eskrima? Laser gun vs bullets?

Before anyone gets the notion I am looking for realistic portrayals of these powers, I am not. I am saying in the end, in order to make a power set suitable for a variety of aesthetics you cannot have the powers themselves reflect the distinctive traits of any one single aesthetic.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

The differences are that there are 4 different focused play style for each basic play style. Within the focused olay style, not every set will have the same speed setting in its design.

I am not sure what this means, can you explain it a bit further?

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

The differences are that there are 4 different focused play style for each basic play style. Within the focused olay style, not every set will have the same speed setting in its design.

You mentioned 4 different play styles in the thread about the Commander power sets. In that thread you mentioned the play styles would primarily be differentiated by the number of pets. That mention and this mention are the only I know of in which you mention "4 play styles" and you are saying that every archetype specialization will have four different playstyles? How do we choose play styles? Are they an option presented during the creation process? Or are they the four choices we get when we pick a branch at tiers 3 and 7?

Tannim222 wrote:

And differences in set mechanics. For example, both Tactical Combat and Fighting Prowess are within the same Basic and Focused Play Style, even have the same speed setting. Yet, because the two sets have different mechanics, they will play differently.
Arguably, Foghting Prowess will be a bit easier while Tactical Combat will take more forethought to maximise its combos. Fighting Prowess isn't reliant on Momentum, while Tactical Combat has to manage the resource.
Even if two people used the exact same aesthetics for both sets, they would still play differently.

emphasis provided by me.

The highlighted line is something I would like to point out because it is very germane to the discussion of the previous posts.

With this system you could have your battle axe and play it with mighty melee mechanics or with the fighting prowess mechanics or even as a thrown weapon when the Assault primary power sets come out.. Likewise with your war mace, katana or any other aesthetic option. So right now we have 5 power sets for melee combat, with 4 play styles each, in addition to masteries which we have been told can completely change the character of a power set's mechanics. I think this means we will be able to tweak our own mechanics to match our chosen aesthetic. That was something we really couldn't do so much in CoX.

I fully expect we will end up with more power sets, however; and some of the future sets might be similar to existing sets, just like CoX battle axe may have been similar to war mace. Nothing is stopping them from creating more and different power sets around different mechanical concepts. What I think would help the most is when we actually get into character creation with our ideas and we find out that no existing power set really gives us the mechanics we want. That feedback will be crucial in determining the need for future power set development.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Now will CoT's aesthetic decoupling cause its powersets to have to be more "cookie cutter" to work? Maybe. I honestly don't think I fear the consequences of that as much as you seem to do, but who knows maybe your fears will be justified. As I said I'm willing to see how it works first before I judge too harshly.

It's not really a fear. It's more that I don't know how they will make sets feel like they properly convey the aesthetic options without being too generic and mild concern that I won't be excited to make multiple characters. I had a great many characters in CoH and even when I played a second, third or twentyish of the same class there was enough uniqueness in the set options to make each one feel very different. Claws did not play like dual blades, will did not play like regen, rad blast did not play like fire blast, illusions did not play like ice control and so on. They were designed around a specific theme and so all had a distinct uniqueness.

As you said, it's a tradeoff and aesthetic decoupling is one of the bigger things making me eager to dig into character creation. I just don't want to find that my radiation blasting Brainbot character feels more like he is shooting a gun if you know what I mean.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Now will CoT's aesthetic decoupling cause its powersets to have to be more "cookie cutter" to work? Maybe. I honestly don't think I fear the consequences of that as much as you seem to do, but who knows maybe your fears will be justified. As I said I'm willing to see how it works first before I judge too harshly.
It's not really a fear. It's more that I don't know how they will make sets feel like they properly convey the aesthetic options without being too generic and mild concern that I won't be excited to make multiple characters. I had a great many characters in CoH and even when I played a second, third or twentyish of the same class there was enough uniqueness in the set options to make each one feel very different. Claws did not play like dual blades, will did not play like regen, rad blast did not play like fire blast, illusions did not play like ice control and so on. They were designed around a specific theme and so all had a distinct uniqueness.
As you said, it's a tradeoff and aesthetic decoupling is one of the bigger things making me eager to dig into character creation. I just don't want to find that my radiation blasting Brainbot character feels more like he is shooting a gun if you know what I mean.

Again I think I get your gist here. I don't pretend to understand all the new terminology being thrown around here yet but it between what Tannim has recently said and the talk of different "mechanics" types it sounds like different powersets can actually be adjusted by players to play differently based on these options. This seems to offer more methods to "customize" how you want things to work than I realized even earlier today.

Bottomline I'm honestly going wait to see how all this works when the "rubber meets the road" in whatever open beta I get to participate in. Frankly talking about new game systems "in abstract" without full detailed knowledge of -everything- the system offers seems semi-pointless to me. It's like trying to understand decimal based math with only being aware of the numbers 1, 3, 4 and 7. I think once we see the whole thing in action it'll make a lot more sense and actually show itself to be fairly workable.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Again I think I get your gist here. I don't pretend to understand all the new terminology being thrown around here yet but it between what Tannim has recently said and the talk of different "mechanics" types it sounds like different powersets can actually be adjusted by players to play differently based on these options. This seems to offer more methods to "customize" how you want things to work than I realized even earlier today.

Yeah, I am a little out of the loop right now because of how much of my time is being devoted to the lawsuit my company is involved in.
This mechanic choice thing is completely new to me and would like to know more about it. Either a link or explanation would be nice. It seems like it might be exactly the thing to quell my concern.

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I'm reminded of the Capoeira

I'm reminded of the Capoeira fireballs from some of the early demonstration videos, which leads me to think that each character's uniqueness may not be guaranteed, but unless it were done deliberately, a player is highly unlikely to see another character that is visually similar to their own. With the different powersets there's another layer of differentiation, also character playstyles will interface with Player playstyles, leading me to think that one is unlikely to ever get 'bored with the sameness'.

Let's face it, at base, all of these powers, and the games they're in, are about applying numbers to virtual targets and avoiding the same. MWM has gone and invented a whole new system for presenting the basic mechanics in brightly-colored ways. Plus, they promise more methods and more visual effects as the game develops.

The OPs question of 'How will we ever know what's happening, if the look and feel of an attack can be so different?' may be valid. Particularly so in PvP. I can only say, 'We can't,' not until the effect actually hits. Experience (and possibly a visit to the Wiki) will teach us what the NPCs can do, such that we might be able to anticipate and prepare for those attacks. However, each New fight will be filled with the possibility of Discovery!

I don't look at this plethora of options as something to fear. I see it as something to explore and discover, and learn from.

Be Well!
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Read the main update - first

Read the main update - first paragraph under What A Power Set Is Made Of. It explains the 4 Focused Play Styles.

Further on it explains that we create each set with a mechanical theme. It isn't something you choose, it is part of the design. These differing mechanics are part of what can differentiate sets from one another.


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If I may attempt a quick and

If I may attempt a quick and dirty summary, each power set is designed to provide a unique FEEL. How it LOOKS will be up to you, the player.

And for those who dream of having environmental interactions, well, those can be linked to the damage type of a set, which in the current schema appears to be fixed.

Also, a big thumbs up to Lothic for, "they cast is bad, we cast is good." That really is all most people need to know in combat.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Read the main update - first paragraph under What A Power Set Is Made Of. It explains the 4 Focused Play Styles.
Further on it explains that we create each set with a mechanical theme. It isn't something you choose, it is part of the design. These differing mechanics are part of what can differentiate sets from one another.

Below is your reference, quoted here for convenience:

Quote:

To create a Power Set, we must first define its Basic Playstyle. The Basic styles are Melee, Ranged, Control, Support, Protection, and Summons. Then we move on to the next level: Focused Playstyle. Each Basic Playstyle has four Focused Playstyles under it. For example, Melee has Single Target Focused, Area Effect Focused, Standard Melee, and Utility Focused. Each of these Focused Playstyles generate a basic template for the Power Set.

The way I interpret this quote is that Offensive Melee as an entire Archetype has 4 play styles. And no matter how many Offensive Melee power sets you make, they are each one of those 4 focused play styles.

Up in post #49 you say:

Tannim222 wrote:

The differences are that there are 4 different focused play style for each basic play style. Within the focused [p]lay style, not every set will have the same speed setting in its design

Which I incorrectly interpreted to mean in each Power Set there are 4 different play styles. Obviously that interpretation is incorrect. In actuality there will be significantly less (1/4) options than I thought there were going to be when I made my post #52 above.

Sorry, everyone, for adding to the confusion. This is my attempt to redress it.


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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Sorry, everyone, for adding to the confusion. This is my attempt to redress it.

Don't worry about. I think we're all sort of stumbling around in the dark trying to get a feel for how all this fits together.

With all due respect to Tannim I'm sure he means well enough when he continually says things like "just read the updates - they're full of info". I'm sure that's true, but he also doesn't seem to realize that while the Devs (himself included) have probably had months (years?) to digest the entire puzzle of this game system we've only been given a couple of days to grasp maybe half(?) of it. It's like trying to understand the rules of a board game that can't be played or set up yet because the board doesn't exist and you've only been given a few pages of a 20-page rule book. He'll just have to forgive us for taking a little time to get to the point where we can start asking some semi-intelligent questions about this game. *shrugs*

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CallmeBlue wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:

Also, a big thumbs up to Lothic for, "they cast is bad, we cast is good." That really is all most people need to know in combat.

LOL... well I realize I was being a bit simplistic about it (nearly to the point of sarcasm) but until we get a better feel for the game with actual playtime that's all we collectively need to understand about it.

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I have to admit that the

I have to admit that the 'Guides' are not exactly well-organized as a resource. Then again, the game is a year off in the future and this is a news and chat site, not a site designed to support a live game. So, people in search of Information may be frustrated and disappointed to only get News & Notes... if they can figure out how to find them.

I'm sure we'll get a site more akin to ParagonWiki or Red Tomax, later, once the game is in working order.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Read the main update - first paragraph under What A Power Set Is Made Of. It explains the 4 Focused Play Styles.

Further on it explains that we create each set with a mechanical theme. It isn't something you choose, it is part of the design. These differing mechanics are part of what can differentiate sets from one another.

Seems I (and others) confused player choice with power set design from your previous post.

Regardless, CoT has chosen to design powers based on their mechanics/play style and not what they represent. As I said, I am looking forward to playing around with the creator when its live but I still worry that some of the creative uniqueness of powers designed with a specific theme (not mechanical) will be lost.

Only Electric Melee had Chain Induction, Radiation Infection was only in Rad Emission, Gang War was only in thugs and so on. These unique powers were designed based on the specific theme of the set because they fit that theme. Their inclusion helped to make those sets feel representative of the visuals associated with them.

It's cool that there will be sets designed around AoE, combos or single target attacks, but what in those sets will represent the aesthetic we choose.
To use an example, say I want to make an armored martial arts master who is highly skilled in attacking multiple enemies at once (AoE set/Resist set) then decide I want to make a wild club swinging caveman with a tough hide (AoE set/ Resist set). Both have the same mechanical themes but they shouldn't feel the same when playing them yet I fear they will.

I get that designing around the mechanics/play style allows for more aesthetics to be offered, but I also see that skilled martial artist and wild caveman would play the same because the aesthetic is applied after the design. Multiple sets based on the same mechanical/ play style themes will give much needed options to design mechanically similar characters that play different but I just don't see how an aesthetic can be represented well when the powers have multiple aesthetics it has to cater to.

Like I said, it's a trade off. I just hope the trade isn't creative design for multiple aesthetic options.

EDIT-I posted without proofreading. I should have said for the highlighted part of this post
'I just don't see how aesthetics can be represented well if powers have too many or wildly different aesthetics it has to cater to.'

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I have to admit that the 'Guides' are not exactly well-organized as a resource. Then again, the game is a year off in the future and this is a news and chat site, not a site designed to support a live game. So, people in search of Information may be frustrated and disappointed to only get News & Notes... if they can figure out how to find them.
I'm sure we'll get a site more akin to ParagonWiki or Red Tomax, later, once the game is in working order.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Well I figure these are the kinds of things that'll become incredibly obvious to anyone who's had a chance to play the game for a few hours but since effectively no one (especially non-Devs) has any hands on experience yet it's hard to wrap our collective little brains around it. It's like trying to understand how to ride a bicycle by being given a picture of a bicycle - it simply doesn't work that well as a "teaching" tool.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Fireheart wrote:
I have to admit that the 'Guides' are not exactly well-organized as a resource. Then again, the game is a year off in the future and this is a news and chat site, not a site designed to support a live game. So, people in search of Information may be frustrated and disappointed to only get News & Notes... if they can figure out how to find them.
I'm sure we'll get a site more akin to ParagonWiki or Red Tomax, later, once the game is in working order.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Well I figure these are the kinds of things that'll become incredibly obvious to anyone who's had a chance to play the game for a few hours but since effectively no one (especially non-Devs) has any hands on experience yet it's hard to wrap our collective little brains around it. It's like trying to understand how to ride a bicycle by being given a picture of a bicycle - it simply doesn't work that well as a "teaching" tool.

How long is your list of examples? :p

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Huckleberry wrote:
Sorry, everyone, for adding to the confusion. This is my attempt to redress it.
Don't worry about. I think we're all sort of stumbling around in the dark trying to get a feel for how all this fits together.
With all due respect to Tannim I'm sure he means well enough when he continually says things like "just read the updates - they're full of info". I'm sure that's true, but he also doesn't seem to realize that while the Devs (himself included) have probably had months (years?) to digest the entire puzzle of this game system we've only been given a couple of days to grasp maybe half(?) of it. It's like trying to understand the rules of a board game that can't be played or set up yet because the board doesn't exist and you've only been given a few pages of a 20-page rule book. He'll just have to forgive us for taking a little time to get to the point where we can start asking some semi-intelligent questions about this game. *shrugs*

I didn't intend to be flippant towards what people were saying. I was simply suggesting people read through the update and the power guides. Going by what some were saying and asking, it seemed like some hadn't read them, read them in a single glance over, misunderstood, or confused certain things. I'm not faulting anyone for any of those. Hence, suggesting they read through again. That is all. I'm sorry if that came off the wrong way. I know my perspective is very different than that of others' on the forum. Part of that statement was intended to spur discussion back to specific points which had already been discussed or explained.


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I think we need a diagram

I think we need a diagram showing what everything is called with drawings and wordzzz and stuffs

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Fireheart wrote:
I have to admit that the 'Guides' are not exactly well-organized as a resource. Then again, the game is a year off in the future and this is a news and chat site, not a site designed to support a live game. So, people in search of Information may be frustrated and disappointed to only get News & Notes... if they can figure out how to find them.
I'm sure we'll get a site more akin to ParagonWiki or Red Tomax, later, once the game is in working order.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Well I figure these are the kinds of things that'll become incredibly obvious to anyone who's had a chance to play the game for a few hours but since effectively no one (especially non-Devs) has any hands on experience yet it's hard to wrap our collective little brains around it. It's like trying to understand how to ride a bicycle by being given a picture of a bicycle - it simply doesn't work that well as a "teaching" tool.
How long is your list of examples? :p

Well since I'm a life long fan of Star Trek (especially the original series) I guess I've taken after the show's tendency to come up with cute simple analogies to help "explain" the pseudo-technobabble that they would often cook up during an episode. Trust me when I say this game's come up with plenty of its own technobabble that we're all going to be getting used to eventually. ;)

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I think we need a diagram showing what everything is called with drawings and wordzzz and stuffs

Yeah we'll need all twenty seven eight-by-ten color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as information to help us understand this game. We need pictures of the approach, the getaway, the northwest corner the southwest corner and that's not to mention the aerial photography...

P.S. The first to get this reference gets anything thing they want at Alice's Restaurant (excepting Alice). ;)

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I'm a little confused by the

I'm a little confused by the Four different playstyles for each powerset. I was looking through the Control power set and most of the powers say that they were designed for single target attack/effects. But one of the four different playstyles are Area effects. So will you be able to have a Area effect playstyle with a Control(which is based more on single enemy attacks)?

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The play styles become more

The play styles become more evident to players when seeing the entirety of the set when planning and through play.

Each Basic Play Style has 4 distinct Focused Play Styles, but that doesn't mean there isn't any overlap. Offense sets may have a Single Target Focus and an Aoe Focus, but that doesn't exclude either from having some powers that aren't inder that focus.

Single Target sets have mostly single target powers, but some area (cone or full). Area Effect Focus has more cone and full aoes, but also has some single target attacks.

Control Sets are much the same way, although they have some different playstyles than offense. One of the similarities is that Control Sets do have a Single Target Focus. The others are point blank aoe, location aoe, and utility.


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I think what we need here is

I think what we need here is a simple explanation. Dumb it down for us please. lol

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Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

I'm a little confused by the Four different playstyles for each powerset. I was looking through the Control power set and most of the powers say that they were designed for single target attack/effects. But one of the four different playstyles are Area effects. So will you be able to have a Area effect playstyle with a Control(which is based more on single enemy attacks)?

You made the same mistake I did.

It is not 4 play styles per power set, it is 4 play styles per archetype. So far, every archetype has 5 power sets. That means that at least two power sets in each archetype will fit the same play style (5 power sets>4 play styles=at least 1 overlap)


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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I think what we need here is a simple explanation. Dumb it down for us please. lol

I will try.
When designing a set - read under the hood, before players do anything - a Power Set is designed in the following steps:

Choose a Basic Play Style: Protection, Melee, Ranged, Control, Support, Summons

Example: Melee is selected by the dev

Choose a Focused Play Style: Under Melee is : Single Target, AoE, Standard, Utility

Example: Melee, Standard is selected by the dev

Choose a Speed: Quick, Medial, Slow.

Example, Melee, Standard, Medial is selected by the dev.

Choose a Mechanical Theme; dev chooses Defense Buff on successful attacks

Choose a Damage Type: Physical, Energy, Exotic

Example: Melee, Standard, Medial Speed, Defense Buff on successful attacks, Physical damage type

A template is generated with all this information preset within it. The dev then adds stuff (like additonal effects, designs the self buff power, etc.).

Choose a name: Fighting Prowess

All of thjs is set and done by the dev. Testing js done, add a hundred steps. Repeat testing and steps...eventually it is approved for beta testing.

Players make a character. They choose an Archetype and Specificstion.

Under Enforcers you will have a list of Melee Sets. You will see names and basic descriptions similar to those shown inder the Guides section kf these forums.

What you won't see: Focused Play Style, Speed.

The mechanical theme will be in the description.

You choose your emanation points / props. You get a list of appropriate animations, then the list of particle effects and colors for all of this. Name your character - go play.

The Focused Play Style is meant to be learned by reading through a set or by playing with the set. It is meant to be intuitive.

This way, a dev can make multiple sets with the same Basic Playstyle, Focused Playstyle, and Speed, but due to differing mechanical effects, have sets that play differently than one another.

Example: both Fighting Prowess and Tactical Combat have the same Basic and Focused Playstyles and Speed. They have very different mechanics and thus, will play differently from one another.


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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
I'm a little confused by the Four different playstyles for each powerset. I was looking through the Control power set and most of the powers say that they were designed for single target attack/effects. But one of the four different playstyles are Area effects. So will you be able to have a Area effect playstyle with a Control(which is based more on single enemy attacks)?
You made the same mistake I did.
It is not 4 play styles per power set, it is 4 play styles per archetype. So far, every archetype has 5 power sets. That means that at least two power sets in each archetype will fit the same play style (5 power sets>4 play styles=at least 1 overlap)

That's why i asked : what are the sets for each archetype ? I noticed that in studying the news to translate it (yes, this is real study to understand the meaning of a sentence ^^)
I think this is this lack of iformation on the news that confuse people :)

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@Tannim, Gotcha, so when it

@Tannim, Gotcha, so when it says Single Target on the Guide for most of Control, that IS the predetermined Basic Playstyle for that Power set/Archetype and we will not have the option to change the playstyle. If we wanted to have a Control that's heavy on AoE, we would just have to pick a power set that had more AoE options, if that is a thing.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I will try.
When designing a set - read under the hood, before players do anything - a Power Set is designed in the following steps:
...

Okay! That clarifies a lot! This means that the whole Powers Creation news-item is about what the Devs do, to create a power and powerset. None of this is directly available to the Players, they simply select a Powerset, which has the given attributes. We don't have to worry about all of this complexity and the Devs hope we like what they made.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

@Tannim, Gotcha, so when it says Single Target on the Guide for most of Control, that IS the predetermined Basic Playstyle for that Power set/Archetype and we will not have the option to change the playstyle. If we wanted to have a Control that's heavy on AoE, we would just have to pick a power set that had more AoE options, if that is a thing.

No. Basic Playstyle would be Controls.
Some of the examples that say single target was to indicate that the power was a single target effect, not to necessarily indicate the Focused Playstyle.

Just because a Focused Playstyle may have more of a focus doesn't mean it only provides that focus. And AoE set will still have single target powers.


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I think we need a diagram showing what everything is called with drawings and wordzzz and stuffs

Yeah we'll need all twenty seven eight-by-ten color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as information to help us understand this game. We need pictures of the approach, the getaway, the northwest corner the southwest corner and that's not to mention the aerial photography...
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
@Tannim, Gotcha, so when it says Single Target on the Guide for most of Control, that IS the predetermined Basic Playstyle for that Power set/Archetype and we will not have the option to change the playstyle. If we wanted to have a Control that's heavy on AoE, we would just have to pick a power set that had more AoE options, if that is a thing.
No. Basic Playstyle would be Controls.
Some of the examples that say single target was to indicate that the power was a single target effect, not to necessarily indicate the Focused Playstyle.
Just because a Focused Playstyle may have more of a focus doesn't mean it only provides that focus. And AoE set will still have single target powers.

Ah, I understand now, for some reason I kept reading Basic Playstyle where focused playstyle was and visa versa, blame the Dyslexia! Thanks for the clarification. What I mainly was thinking about was the Earth Control from CoX.

That was definitely one of my favorites and was very heavy on AoE(over half the power pool), and it just seemed like all of the examples were Single Targets, so I was mainly trying to gauge whether the control in CoT will have a power set that will have options for more AoE based Control characters(mechanically speaking, disregard the Earth Aesthetic of this example)

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Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
@Tannim, Gotcha, so when it says Single Target on the Guide for most of Control, that IS the predetermined Basic Playstyle for that Power set/Archetype and we will not have the option to change the playstyle. If we wanted to have a Control that's heavy on AoE, we would just have to pick a power set that had more AoE options, if that is a thing.
No. Basic Playstyle would be Controls.
Some of the examples that say single target was to indicate that the power was a single target effect, not to necessarily indicate the Focused Playstyle.
Just because a Focused Playstyle may have more of a focus doesn't mean it only provides that focus. And AoE set will still have single target powers.
Ah, I understand now, for some reason I kept reading Basic Playstyle where focused playstyle was and visa versa, blame the Dyslexia! Thanks for the clarification. What I mainly was thinking about was the Earth Control from CoX.
That was definitely one of my favorites and was very heavy on AoE(over half the power pool), and it just seemed like all of the examples were Single Targets, so I was mainly trying to gauge whether the control in CoT will have a power set that will have options for more AoE based Control characters(mechanically speaking, disregard the Earth Aesthetic of this example)

6 out of 10 powers under Control were single target. The others 4 were either point blank aoe or location based. It wasn't all, but you are correct, nine featured targeted aoe.

That was intentional. I had to consider how all the power mechanics were presented as a whole (across all sets). I wanted to make sure all the major mechanics were featured some where and since I only had 2 powers per set, I had to take care. I probably could have shown a few more targeted aoes.

Evrn so, all the Control set Focused Playstyles are represented in the launch sets. You certainly will get to play aoe heavy control sets in the game. 2 of them heavily focus on that play style, location and pbaoe.


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Thank you for the response.

Thank you for the response. Yea, a better verbage would have been "most", it wouldn't have been a dealbreaker if Control was "mostly"(^-^) Single target. I am glad to hear though that there will be some AoE heavy potential, this makes me very happy indeed :)

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Read the main update - first paragraph under What A Power Set Is Made Of. It explains the 4 Focused Play Styles.
Further on it explains that we create each set with a mechanical theme. It isn't something you choose, it is part of the design. These differing mechanics are part of what can differentiate sets from one another.
Seems I (and others) confused player choice with power set design from your previous post.
Regardless, CoT has chosen to design powers based on their mechanics/play style and not what they represent. As I said, I am looking forward to playing around with the creator when its live but I still worry that some of the creative uniqueness of powers designed with a specific theme (not mechanical) will be lost.
Only Electric Melee had Chain Induction, Radiation Infection was only in Rad Emission, Gang War was only in thugs and so on. These unique powers were designed based on the specific theme of the set because they fit that theme. Their inclusion helped to make those sets feel representative of the visuals associated with them.
It's cool that there will be sets designed around AoE, combos or single target attacks, but what in those sets will represent the aesthetic we choose.
To use an example, say I want to make an armored martial arts master who is highly skilled in attacking multiple enemies at once (AoE set/Resist set) then decide I want to make a wild club swinging caveman with a tough hide (AoE set/ Resist set). Both have the same mechanical themes but they shouldn't feel the same when playing them yet I fear they will.
I get that designing around the mechanics/play style allows for more aesthetics to be offered, but I also see that skilled martial artist and wild caveman would play the same because the aesthetic is applied after the design. Multiple sets based on the same mechanical/ play style themes will give much needed options to design mechanically similar characters that play different but I just don't see how an aesthetic can be represented well when the powers have multiple aesthetics it has to cater to.
Like I said, it's a trade off. I just hope the trade isn't creative design for multiple aesthetic options.
EDIT-I posted without proofreading. I should have said for the highlighted part of this post
'I just don't see how aesthetics can be represented well if powers have too many or wildly different aesthetics it has to cater to.'

You seem to be hung up on the notion that a single power must feel distinct for each and every aesthetic option that it has. I don't think it needs to (and think it's a fools errand to try and make it so) as long as it has enough that it has a reasonable large span so as not to make every option feel the same.

I think you also underestimate how much the aesthetics contribute to the final feel of the power. I'm pretty sure that most would think a power feels different if it had a series of rapid punches compared to a longish windup ending in a massive blow. As for BA and WM specifically, I think that just going with different angles of the swing could make them feel different. Sure I don't see such minor differences being in at launch since it's much about re-use at that time but it wouldn't surprise me if it became available down the road.

But if you really are that concerned about having the powers feel different for such closely related aesthetics then pick different mechanical sets. What I think you are forgetting is that the aesthetic options for a set is chosen to be appropriate for the mechanics of said set, not that they try and shoehorn in a mechanic among a larger bunch of aesthetics.

As for Masteries. They are more along the line of the differences between Brute Scrapper and Stalker (same basic playstyle) than Brute and Tanker (different basic playstyle) but that doesn't mean that they can't also affect thing like base damage CD cost accuracy and such.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

You seem to be hung up on the notion that a single power must feel distinct for each and every aesthetic option that it has. I don't think it needs to (and think it's a fools errand to try and make it so) as long as it has enough that it has a reasonable large span so as not to make every option feel the same.

You seem too intent on changing my mind to hear what I am saying.
If the power set is designed in a way that it can suitably have a vast number of aesthetics then it's just a reskin wrapped around boring mechanics. That is my concern. Not being excited to make a new character because everything is so generic.

blacke4dawn wrote:

I think you also underestimate how much the aesthetics contribute to the final feel of the power. I'm pretty sure that most would think a power feels different if it had a series of rapid punches compared to a longish windup ending in a massive blow.

I am not 'most' and so I am only expressing my personal concern. I also acknowledge that aesthetics do go a long way to making the old new again, specifically citing the steam workshop reskins. But a new texture on an old gun does not change how I play a FPS.

blacke4dawn wrote:

But if you really are that concerned about having the powers feel different for such closely related aesthetics then pick different mechanical sets. What I think you are forgetting is that the aesthetic options for a set is chosen to be appropriate for the mechanics of said set, not that they try and shoehorn in a mechanic among a larger bunch of aesthetics.

I am not forgetting that. I actually spoke about that before your reply. Twice.

Look man, I get that you are happy with aesthetic decoupling. I am too for the most part. I just have a (mild) concern over just how many aesthetic options a power set is designed to be suitable for. Making a set that can reasonably accept too many or vastly different aesthetics means that creative uniqueness is in jeopardy.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I think we need a diagram showing what everything is called with drawings and wordzzz and stuffs

Yeah we'll need all twenty seven eight-by-ten color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as information to help us understand


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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Look man, I get that you are happy with aesthetic decoupling. I am too for the most part. I just have a (mild) concern over just how many aesthetic options a power set is designed to be suitable for. Making a set that can reasonably accept too many or vastly different aesthetics means that creative uniqueness is in jeopardy.

Creative uniqueness of what exactly? What was the creative uniqueness between WM and BA that will be completely lost with CoT's system?

The mechanics of a sets? Heck no, I would say it increases since they don't have to put out several sets with just minor variations. They have opted to move those variations into a separate system instead making it more flexible.
The (final) aesthetics of a set? I would have to say no due to the huge number of combinations.

I think your biggest mistake here is looking at the set as a whole (or even single powers) in complete isolation. The creative uniqueness I'm looking for is in the character as a whole, not in single powers or single sets.

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http://titanscity.com

http://titanscity.com/archetypes-classes-sets-pouvoirs-city-of-titans-sortie-mmo/ (use the translator on the top to read in your language ^^)
i tried to explain what tannim said. Maybe it could help to understand what tannim means with Basic Style (melee, protection, control...) and Focused style (sub-style)

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

http://titanscity.com/archetypes-classes-sets-pouvoirs-city-of-titans-sortie-mmo/ (use the translator on the top to read in your language ^^)
i tried to explain what tannim said. Maybe it could help to understand what tannim means with Basic Style (melee, protection, control...) and Focused style (sub-style)

See my post #74 in this thread.


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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Creative uniqueness of what exactly?

I explained this through a truncated list in a post you actually quoted. Unique powers/ sets design around a specific theme (not mechanical theme).
If you want some more examples:
Trick Arrows eclectic arsenal.
Dark Armors odd blend of fears, auras and unique self heal.
Storm Summonings interesting mix of chaotic effects.
Shield Armors synergy with allies.
Dual Pistols ammo swapping.
Staff fightings stances.
Radiation Emmisions quirky little extras like EMP doing damage to robots.
Pain Dominations hurt yourself to heal.
Kinetics varying buffs
How the pets in each Control set are different.
Force Fields mix of protection and repulsion.
ECT

And those examples don't go into set defining powers like:
Super Strengths Rage.
Shield Defenses Shield Charge or Electric Melees Lightning Rod.
Kinetic Melees Power Siphon.
Ice Blasts Bitter Ice Blast.
Energy Manipulations Power Boost and Boost Range.
Devices Drones and mines.
ECT.

When you start getting into more unique powers or combination of powers you limit how many aesthetics can be reasonably applied to them.
The reverse is also true. The more generic the powers the more aesthetics that are applicable.
A simple attack can be almost anything but a more individualized power like Black Hole from Dark Miasma (heck the entire synergistic nature of Dark Miasma) does not lend itself well to as many aesthetics.
So to again reiterate, if the sets are generic enough to accommodate vastly differing aesthetics then I would consider that too high a trade off for customization.

blacke4dawn wrote:

The mechanics of a sets? Heck no, I would say it increases since they don't have to put out several sets with just minor variations. They have opted to move those variations into a separate system instead making it more flexible.

You keep bringing up this idea of minor variations. I think you have mistakenly gotten the idea that is all I am talking about from this portion of a post I made:

Brainbot wrote:

My frankengun example was probably too abstract to be useful so lets look at the Battle Axe and War Mace sets for CoH. In many ways those two sets were very similar, recycled animations, knock effects and so on. But they played different because there were small variations due to theme. Varied activation times, recharges, end costs, secondary effects and so on. With aesthetic decoupling those distinctions are lost. Not only that, but possibly Kung Fu, boxing, electric batons, Capoeira, Savate or even Captain Caveman club fighting will all play the same as a War Mace and Battle Axe.

You missed the key part of that paragraph (the bold part), where I example a list of aesthetics that I think probably shouldn't be included with War Mace and Battle Axe. This is why you have to look at the context of a statement when you jump into others conversation.

blacke4dawn wrote:

I think your biggest mistake here is looking at the set as a whole (or even single powers) in complete isolation. The creative uniqueness I'm looking for is in the character as a whole, not in single powers or single sets.

I can't believe I am saying this but a different opinion is not a mistake.
I enjoy sets built around a specific theme. I like a set of powers that interestingly represent the aesthetic associated with it. I don't want 9 uninspired blast that I can color green and call it Radiation, color pink and call it Psychic or use two guns and call it Dual Pistols. I would like there to be something in a set that invokes a feeling of playing with two guns or radiation.
If, and I am not saying you are, you are satisfied with basic powers you can paint how you see fit then more power to you. I respect your opinion. Do me the same courtesy.

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Brainbot I do believe that

Brainbot I do believe that the different animations that are created will indeed make the let's say "Atrophic Blast" set feel entirely unique. The gun aminations will look and play a certain way while the armored suit animations will have a different feel to them. Im almost certain they said that they could speed up or slow down the animations depending on what prop and/or emanation point is being used. This is another way that the same exact set can look and play differently. The possibilities are endless.

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Wouldn't tertiary powers help

Wouldn't tertiary powers help make almost all of those things viable though? I mean we won't know for sure till we get a list of all available powers. But I'm sure between having 2 main powersets, up to 5 tertiary sets, travel powers, and masteries there'll be a lot of ways to make your characters unique even if they have the same primary and secondary sets.

Edit: Oh! Also enhancements that can change damage types, turn things into AoEs, and who know what else.

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