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Is bind on pick-up ever good?

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Radiac
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Is bind on pick-up ever good?

I personally never liked having Enhancements in CoX that were untradeable. Is there a reason why CoT would need to do that at all?

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The usual excuse I hear for

The usual excuse I hear for BOP is that the item is too powerful to allow it to be traded.

To which I reply, perhaps that period needs to go after the word powerful?

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Bind on Equip and Bind on

Bind on Equip and Bind on Pick Up are horrible. I hate them sooooo much. I've had stuff that was Bind on Pick Up that I couldn't use because of Class restrictions, or some other restriction, that I would have loved to have traded or sent to my friends that could have used it instead. I seem to recall someone saying before in a different thread that there wouldn't be any Bind On drops. That everything would be able to be traded or sold.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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...huh?

...huh?

I don't remember any "bind on pickup" enhancements in CoX. Then again, I was not big on Task Forces and I never really got into the whole "run the Incarnate Trial all day every day until I get my Incarnate set complete" portion of the game. I do remember there was some weird bind function on certain types of Incarnate salvage which I thought was really odd (and probably one of the things that made the ITF unattractive). By and large everything I picked up either went to storage, went directly onto my character, or got dumped in the Auction House for 15 INF each. Surprisingly, there was some salvage that never sold even at that price. Those pieces got pulled after 72 hours or so and dumped on the nearest merchant.

Personally, I am not a fan of "bind on pick-up" for anything. Nor do I like stopping to search the fallen (unless it is part and parcel of the virtual world). I prefer any "loot" to just magically appear in my personal inventory until it fills to capacity, at which point I can empty the personal inventory or just stop thinking about it altogether. Especially when running with a full group. If I have to pause after every battle to negotiate over who gets what it will make playing with a team very annoying for me.

That's one feature of Champions Online I'm finding to be more annoying than useful. All that stopping to press "Z" over and over again to pick up junk that I can't use anyway and instead of Inspirations there's a glowie after the fight I have to run my character through (or at least close to) within several seconds or it just vanishes. Very annoying.

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I don't mind bind on equip.

I don't mind bind on equip. In fact, Bind on Equip makes sense, Always hated Bind on Pickup for the same reason mentioned. Get a drop you can't use? Well suckie. :/ Can't even pass it to teammate.

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The only Bind On in CoX that

The only Bind On in CoX that I recall were the store bought IO's and Incarnate Salvage. Not sure why you didn't find the ITF attractive, I ran it several thousand times. I don't believe there was anything from the ITF that was Bind On.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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Always hated bind on equip as

Always hated bind on equip as well, because once I got something better I would have liked to have once again passed on the item to a friend that could have used it. Instead, I'd have to sell it to a vendor or just drop it.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

Redlynne
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Bind on Pickup is for rewards

Bind on Pickup is for rewards that can only be obtained through the course of specific content ... usually dungeons/raids/task forces/etc. ... where the design intent is to limit availability to being related to that content specifically. This is the way that Merits worked in City of Heroes, so as to prevent "pooling" or trading of Merits.

Bind on Equip is for rewards that are meant to be One Use so as to prevent them from circulating eternally within the game's item economy. In the absence of Bind on Equip, you will have rampant Twinking, simply because there's nothing to stop anyone from doing it.

Both of these systems are, in fact, sinks for items/rewards so as to remove stocks of items/rewards from the in-game economy. So naturally people hate them, even though not having them would completely wreck the in-game economy.


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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

That's one feature of Champions Online I'm finding to be more annoying than useful. All that stopping to press "Z" over and over again to pick up junk that I can't use anyway and instead of Inspirations there's a glowie after the fight I have to run my character through (or at least close to) within several seconds or it just vanishes. Very annoying.

That's one thing that I greatly appreciated about CoH - No Looting. No stopping, no slowing down, no extra button-pushes. Everyone actively involved got loot, without having to waste brain-cycles on it. Further, what you got and what others got was irrelevant, unless someone said, "Hey, can you guys use a (thing)? I got extras."

Redlynne wrote:

Both of these systems are, in fact, sinks for items/rewards so as to remove stocks of items/rewards from the in-game economy. So naturally people hate them, even though not having them would completely wreck the in-game economy.

I can understand how that would be so, but my natural response is that, if it Really needs to be 'sinked' that badly, then maybe it shouldn't be dropped? Or not dropped as much.

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Redlynne
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Typically, the Bind on Pickup

Typically, the Bind on Pickup stuff is the higher orders of rarity (blues, purples, etc.). The basic idea is that "you had to be there" doing whatever in order to get it to drop. That then ties that specific drop into a particular (hopefully memorable) action or activity which that specific character has undertaken.

Because, let's face it ... anything you can get off the market is going to be "cheapened" in terms of emotional attachment to the means/method of acquisition. Paying IGC (or Merits or whatever) to obtain a valuable rare drop isn't going to give you that thrill of discovery that you get by having something randomly (lucky!) drop for YOU while you're out actively doing whatever. Stuff that you can obtain easily (or too easily) just isn't as valued as stuff that you have to put at least some effort into obtaining (and I'm not just talking about ponying up the IGC to place a bid in the market). Instead, we'd rather look at the rare drop and think of it as a TROPHY that was WON by defeating {insert Foe here} after an epic battle or as a reward for a difficult storyline completed. Without that "trophy" aspect to it, where the item was "won" by the Player as a result of their own actions, you just don't care about it as much.

I know that ultimately this is kind of a psycho-babble bit of mumbo jumbo that's only tangentially important, yet at the same time explains certain aspects of the Risk/Reward system and how having Bind on Pickup/Bind on Equip can produce a rather dramatic difference in the INVESTMENT a Player makes in their virtual alter ego(s) ... which in turn can be a non-trivial factor in whether a game succeeds or fails.


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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

Always hated bind on equip as well, because once I got something better I would have liked to have once again passed on the item to a friend that could have used it. Instead, I'd have to sell it to a vendor or just drop it.

Which helps people spend their money :p You used it. It's old now. Why spend money if you can just keep saving everything?

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Bind on Pickup is for rewards that can only be obtained through the course of specific content ... usually dungeons/raids/task forces/etc. ... where the design intent is to limit availability to being related to that content specifically. This is the way that Merits worked in City of Heroes, so as to prevent "pooling" or trading of Merits.
Bind on Equip is for rewards that are meant to be One Use so as to prevent them from circulating eternally within the game's item economy. In the absence of Bind on Equip, you will have rampant Twinking, simply because there's nothing to stop anyone from doing it.
Both of these systems are, in fact, sinks for items/rewards so as to remove stocks of items/rewards from the in-game economy. So naturally people hate them, even though not having them would completely wreck the in-game economy.

Sort of, merits were BoP but what you bought with them wasn't so it didn't really prevent their trading.

BoE is to prevent all your alts using the uber gear you found on your high level toons all the way up, and never needing to go after good stuff of their own. That CoH didn't have this may have contributed to the inflation.

BoA is stuff that you fear can be farmed (or in CoH's case bought), so you don't get a flood of these items breaking the market, but you can give them to your alts.

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I get what you are saying

I get what you are saying about trophys, Redlynne. But a trophy is only good if I can either use it or show it, so I can at least boast about it. An enhancement I can not use, show or trade is not a good trophy then. I would be more frustrated that the one time I find an ultra rare item it is absolutely useless to me and I will have to sell it to a vendor for 1000 inf, while other players would have given me millions for it.

The bind on pickup drops in City of Heros, as far as I remember, were incarnate components and merits. And they were useful for every character alike, because you could choose what to craft out of them or trade in for them. Quest items are also something that is very often bound on pickup. And I can imagine that being able to trade them would have been harmful.

So I would say bind on pickup can be done, as long as it is something everyone can use.

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CoX did have a *FORM* of BOE

CoX did have a *FORM* of BOE for most of its life, because unless you respecced your character/spent real money for unslotters later on in life you couldn't transfer equipped Enhancements to another character.

The fact that Respecs were an "ingame" earnable limited resource (although you could occasionally buy a respec recipe off the market).

People have complained about the CoX respec system in that it was the "wrong" way to do it. Do hard content (for that level) to get something to ungimp your character....Either that or get enough people around to carry you through the content.

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The biggest Bind on

The biggest Bind on Acquisition things I didn't like in CoX were the Incarnate threads and components. I felt like I ought to at least be able to trade those with other sub-paying Incarnate toons in person-to-person trades if nothing else.

I see what Red's saying about the thrill of getting something at random or at the end of a trial or raid etc. but there's also the problem that you go "OOOH! I got a PURPLE!.....but it's one that THIS toon can't use...:( Why does that always happen?" and if you can't just sell the ones you can't use for ones that maybe you CAN use, that takes AWAY as much joy as the random drop ever gave you.

As for Bind on Equip, I'm totally fine with that as an attempt at an IGC/gear sink. The existence of respecs and unslotters tends to lower their effectiveness in those regards, so I would try to find a price point for the unslotter that makes it something other than a foregone conclusion that you'd just always use one. Like the unslotter maybe should be MORE expensive than the Single Origin Enhancement but probably cheaper than a Numina Proc. Somewhere in there. Then the Respec needs to be the same cost as like MANY unslotters, especially if there's no limit on how often you can use them on a toon.

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

CoX did have a *FORM* of BOE for most of its life, because unless you respecced your character/spent real money for unslotters later on in life you couldn't transfer equipped Enhancements to another character.
The fact that Respecs were an "ingame" earnable limited resource (although you could occasionally buy a respec recipe off the market).
People have complained about the CoX respec system in that it was the "wrong" way to do it. Do hard content (for that level) to get something to ungimp your character....Either that or get enough people around to carry you through the content.

It was only hard content at the beginning, it got dumbed down pretty fast and at the end was a joke, freakspec/riktispec +3x8 with 4 or 5 people was just relaxing fun.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

The biggest Bind on Acquisition things I didn't like in CoX were the Incarnate threads and components. I felt like I ought to at least be able to trade those with other sub-paying Incarnate toons in person-to-person trades if nothing else.

I think that was necessary, they wanted to control how you progressed so that if you wanted incarnate powers, you did incarnate content whether solo in DA or in the trials.

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Im affraid that BoE or BoP

Im affraid that BoE or BoP will hurt the altism. Being able to move things from one toon to another was a huge plus imo. The other issue i have is the frequent changing of enhacements in builds, especially the perfectionists like me, to be hurt by a little BoE.

What I would like to suggest is to have enhancement be BoA (Bind on Account) when it is slotted into a power on any character. This will allow the players to still be able to freely move it between the character on the account through account bank or personal storage in a SG.

Im highly against BoE with enhancement and the like and Im highly against BoP as while in the same regard. Merits and other things are a different story.

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AlienMafia wrote:
AlienMafia wrote:

I'm afraid that BoE or BoP will hurt the altism. Being able to move things from one toon to another was a huge plus imo.

It's called Twinking for a reason and has existed in gaming for more than 15 years already (re: Diablo II, circa 1999-2000).

Moving around COMMON stuff and cash, that's fine. However there ought to be some rewards that are unique and specific to what an individual character has done (Bind on Pickup) rather than being either something you can trade (Bind on Equip) or something that has to be limited to only the characters on your account (Account Bound).

And contrary to your assertion, I take the opposite view. Instead of hurting the alt potential, these kinds of restrictions ensure that content gets run more than once or twice for an entire stable of characters. That's built in replayability right there.


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Even the new diablo 3 still

Even the new diablo 3 still allows you to move your items, currency and others between characters. I was playing neverwinter and everything BoE which was fine with that game because all you needed was 1 character for each class. So 5-6 character total. I just think with our sort of game where people have reported having 100 level 50s. How many times did people transfer post-equiped items to other characters or gave them to friends or SG members? And now tell them that they can no longer unslot things to help friends out or tell them that they can't simply put together a build try it out and then want to change it and not be able to use those wasted super very rare enhancement anymore that they spent 2billion on to OWN the enhancement and yet they cant use for THEIR other characters. Since currency is account wide and, if it is not, then we are going in the wrong direction, then people should be able to use their account wide currency on enhancements and use that enhancements on their account.

IMO this issue NEEDS to be one of those things that stays true to CoX spirit.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Moving around COMMON stuff and cash, that's fine. However there ought to be some rewards that are unique and specific to what an individual character has done (Bind on Pickup) rather than being either something you can trade (Bind on Equip) or something that has to be limited to only the characters on your account (Account Bound).
And contrary to your assertion, I take the opposite view. Instead of hurting the alt potential, these kinds of restrictions ensure that content gets run more than once or twice for an entire stable of characters. That's built in replayability right there.

You have to be careful with this. If stuff cannot be unslotted and shifted to another toon, you get a massive outcry if you change the way a power or equipped item works so that you no longer want it in the character in which you originally slotted it.

FWIW I thought CoH got it about right, unslotting enhancements did take a little effort but wasn't too difficult.

There's a difference between CoH and other games that I hope will continue into CoT as has been alluded to above. Levels of alting were far above what I've seen in other games (I have 10 max level chars in NW and about the same in RIFT mainly for crafting purposes, I had 85 in CoH), and there is a limit to how many times you want to run the same lower level content.

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Lutan touched on an important

Lutan touched on an important aspect that I will expand upon: while I understand the draw of having unique, bound, über drops in a gear-based game, one of the key points of this game's predecessor was a distinct lack of focus on gear. Given a large number of people here have asked for that to be a foundation stone of CoT, having some unique item that no one can see becomes somewhat meaningless as far as pride, bragging rights, etc.

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I guess when you think about

I guess when you think about it, Badges were a "Bound on Acquisition" thing. They felt more like character unlocks to me, but some of them (the Accolades) did give you a long-recharge power or an inherent +HP, etc. Thought of as Temp powers or enhancements, those Ring of the Archmage and so forth look and sound like things someone could give to someone else, but you couldn't. I was fine with that.

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Although I would be the first

Although I would be the first to admit how annoying it was to have VR incarnate salvage drop on characters I wasn't taking to T4 level, I overall thought the BoP nature of incarnate salvage was a good thing from both a mechanical thematic sides. As long as the binding of "stuff" makes sense in the same way for CoT I would be ok with it, even if I did get annoyed every now and then.

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The annoyance of getting

The annoyance of getting incarnate salvage you didn't need was balanced a bit by the fact that there were conversion recipes to get what you needed, though at significant cost.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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By the end of the game, I

By the end of the game, I thought COH had found a pretty good balance between difficult-to-acquire and easy-to-acquire stuff. And as much as I disliked the Auction House concept, I found myself able to use it to good effect and even enjoy it. And with the new enhancement sets coming in Issue 24, COH was really going well.

Damn.

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