So let's talk about the best written characters and stories in the genre. I want to kick this off with by talking about my personal favorites, relatable well written villains. These can often really drive a story narrative more than any other character.
Recently I fell in love all over again with The Incredibles, and a big part of this was the writing for the main villains. In both movies, but especially the second, I think they really steal the show. They come across as relatable to the audience even more than the protagonists. They have interesting character development and backstory. They even have passion to genuinely make the world a better place (from their perspective). The writing in the second movie I found especially great in that the villain touched on cerebral questions of culture and philosophy to the point of being very meta if you stop and think about it (not getting into spoilers here since the movie just came out).
So what is everyone's favorite bit of comic writing and why?
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[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
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Invincible has really good writing and it's probably one of my favorite comics, though I haven't been keeping up with it, so I don't know if it's gone downhill since. As for the why? It's relatable, clever, and has a touch more realism than a lot of comics.
The original run on Runaways was amazing. Good characters, great twist, interesting lore.
I always appreciate a well written Superman. Where he's good, empathetic, and compassionate.
Oh, and I really liked Miles Morales Spiderman. Liked that he wasn't just Peter Parker 2.0 he was his own person. They could have been really lazy with it, but they weren't.
Few more
Mr. Freeze from the Batman the Animated Series episode Heart of Ice. If you haven't seen this go now and do so. It's so good. Great atmosphere, characterizations, and it's what made Mr. Freeze the character most people know him as today.
JLU episode Double Date. Super fun, great dialogue, moral choices, fight scenes, chase sequences, this episode has it all! Probably one of if not the best JLU episode.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I thought Ultimate Spider-Man was great writing until they went the Mile route. I felt it was in part to having a writer who stayed with the comic. Maybe even how they had it planned so that 100 comics equaled 1 year in comic time.
Good writing in comics can come and go. What is the best written today can be the worst written tomorrow. :/
A good villain always steals the show.
My fav was always Doctor Octopus.
Captain Hook is another favorite.
a good stable of villains sells comics. I never followed the Flash because his villains were always boring.
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I thought Magneto was sometimes well-done. He wasn’t evil, he was fighting back against prejudice. Of course, a big reason why that prejudice existed was because of things he did which made people scared of mutants. But that self-destructive stuff to me is interesting.
I also like the retcon that he called his group the “Brotherhood of Evil Mutants” was to be ironic; if people think mutants are called evil then go with it. Of course then he sometimes did evil things just to be evil because the X-Men needed someone to save the world from. So not always well-written. But sometimes he was.
Ultimatum, probably the worst arc in X-Men history.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
It's super bad.
I haven't actually read the thing but I've seen a comic nerd talk about the thing. So it's like I've read it.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I can't think of a single character in comics that have been consistently well written. They all seem to go through periods of underwhelming motivations, storylines, conflicts and/or activities.
I think a current standout for me is during the first Marvel's Civil War.
What I consider it's most compelling aspect was that there was no right or wrong, no good or bad. Those who were the 'face' of each side (Tony Stark and Reed Richards in favor of registration/Captain America opposed) were honestly doing what they deemed right. This wasn't a case of the 'misguided' villain doing something wrong in the name of the greater good, it was good people trying to do good things in opposition of other good people trying to do good things. As characters the major players were all written very well and for the most part the supporting characters were spot on IMO.
In the past this kind of justified villain had been explored from almost every angle. The misunderstood villain where the conflict is a misunderstanding, the misguided villain who does bad to ultimately do good, the uninformed villain whose actions are based on lack of knowledge about what his opposes and so on. There have been well written characters in well written stories in the past but almost universally you knew who the hero was and who the villain was. The civil war, by putting heroes on opposite sides of a situation with no right answer, managed to create a fairly unique situation in comics. As a reader you were supposed to pick sides, to determine who the villain was from your personal stand point.
To me that was the best written villains (and heroes) in comics in recent years, because it was about you, not the writers, morals.
Then again that storyline did have some dumb parts too, so nothing's perfect.
Some honorable mentions.
The Batman/Joker relationship hasn't always been consistent or good but I do like the recent dynamic they have now. It's almost codependent and it adds a new level to their conflict I find interesting.
The Superman/Luthor relationship (after Luthor goes from mad scientist to business mogul) is great to me as well. Luthor represents Superman's own doubts and fears and so while Superman condemns Luthor's actions he also sympathizes with them. When a writer really explores this relationship it is very intriguing.
The Johnny Storm/Lyja relationship is another interesting story. Overall it is inconsistent but still more interesting than the Batman/Catwoman relationship to me.
I find when Spiderman is unsure of himself he is the best written version of the character.
When Punisher is shown to be a ruthless murderer juxtaposed against his compassion and mercy he is infinitely more compelling than when he is just a murderer.
One of the worst things about Civil War (comic) was that apparently the writer of said comic came forth and basically said that Tony was right and the good guy in it.
Can't find the actual quote right now. Which is unfortunate.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I think Fear Itself and/or Siege are probably my favorite most recent major Marvel storyarcs (which really isn't even all that recent because I don't really keep up with it as much as I used to) because:
SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT
Cain Marko gets one of the hammers from The Serpent of Asgard and becomes Kuurth, Colossus becomes the new Juggernaut where they show how a different person can develop different attributes of being Unstoppable, and finally Captain America is found worthy and wields Mjolnir to fight the Red Skull.
SO GODDAMN GOOD.
Before that? Annihilation Wave and anything during that run concerning Kl'rt the Super Skrull. Man, you loved to hate him and yet rooted for him at the same time. Plus I liked how they showed him using the Fantastic Four's powers in more... creative manners. Be it in video games or tabletop gaming or whatever, I always enjoy unconventional / creative use of powers and abilities.
Favorite anti-hero/villain: Cain Marko as the Juggernaut. I've definitely binged a large number of back issues on anything Juggernaut. The Exemplars / Eighth Day storyarc was pretty good, part of which was penciled by John Romita Jr. As was the Once And Future Juggernaut recent storyline.
Favorite [i]villain[/i] villain: Hunter Rose as Grendel, otherwise known as the sophisticated gentleman villain who's utterly ruthless. Very much like Gerald Tarrant of C.S. Friedman's Coldfire Trilogy or Magus from Chrono Trigger.
Favorite pulp hero: Kent Allard as Lamont Cranston as The Shadow. The last Batman/Shadow crossover was definitely worth reading. Also binged back issues where almost nothing beats seeing The Shadow dual wield Uzis. Grendel/Shadow currently is a good crossover story too.
Honorable Mention(s): Nate 'X-Man' Grey (I own the entire X-Man series run in actual physical issues), Nathan 'Cable' Summers (same here, most of the Cable And Deadpool run plus a whole bunch of X-Force), Winter Soldier, Colossus (mostly issues involving him as Juggernaut or his sister being quite demonic and going on a rampage to get her soul back), or pretty much anyone with banded metal arm(s)/body, which I know I've mentioned before. Again, I have no idea why. I just think it looks awesome. Also; Angela.
I think you might me talking about this quote:
I can't find the complete interview but I do remember it.
Millar was talking about the way it was written and how a superhero registration act would be received in the real world. The civil war storyline was an exploration (not a commentary) on the legislation that followed 9/11. The main civil war series showed public response was in favor of the act similar how much of the legislation after 9/11 was but the tie-ins showed a negative public response. Millar was just commenting, as he always does, on how working for a large company like Marvel has it's drawbacks. In this case there wasn't a consistency in the telling of the story. It's these tie-ins that expanded on the original registration act and made it much more evil than Millar had intended putting more emphasis on Caps side. It was originally nothing more than those with powers were required to register who they are and what they can do. The tie-in included the imprisonment without trial, forced service and zero tolerance aspects as well as pardons for known criminals. The original series was an ideological debate piece but the tie-ins and continuation treated it as a condemnation of political over reaching.
The point of the story, as far as I remember Millar saying, was to explore how uncompromising ideology in the wake of tragedy is much worse than the tragedy itself.
This video from Comicstorian tells you the story from stand alone series (check out his stuff as I think he is one of the best sources for comic storyline information out there).
[youtube]Ed8UZprDgkw[/youtube]
Again, I can't find the actual interview so my memory could be mistaken.
I'm not sure there are any consistently well written villains. My favorites would be Magneto, Doom, and Ra's al Ghul. Though I really liked Syndrome in the first Incredibles movie. Seeing the new one tonight!
I think Magneto could be so much more than he is ever written, hate for those taken from him wrongfully. Doom kinda always seemed to believe he was the hero. Ra's al Ghul is the tactician, operates in the shadows rarely exposing himself. Syndrome well he tried to bring his homemade ball to the party but eventually couldn't take it and go home - good intentions gone awry. Very cliche in motivation for all I suppose, but they are still some of my favorites.
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
What parts were the tie-ins? I've pretty much just read the graphic novel format and a couple of books I know we're tie-ins (young avengers/runaways civil war).
But in the graphic novel SHIELD attacks Cap before the registration act has passed, lock up heroes without trial, get some villains together to make a new Thunderbolts team to chase Spiderman, and Tony's side make a weird robo-clone of Thor that kills a man.
Again, not sure how much of that was Tie-ins. I know that some graphic novels pull things from the tie-ins to make the story flow better.
It does have a Punisher moment I like, some villains want to join the anti registration side and he just like, guns them down as soon as he sees them, everyone else is horrified of course, and he just responds with like "What? They were villains." Not saying it's good writing or anything, but I found it entertaining.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
These were the core comics:
http://marvel.com/comics/list/coreissue/?id=238
and here is the series including tie-ins in the order of release:
http://marvel.com/comics/discover/114/civil-war-the-complete-event
I read the comics in their initial run and have not read the graphic novel so I can't speak to what was in it. Some of the things you talk about were major plot points in the core books. SHIELD attacked Cap, and Mr Fantastic did make a Thor clone/robot who did kill Goliath. The others are only referenced in the core books because they were initiated in the tie-ins.
This is what I remember Millar speaking against. The fact that other writers storylines imposed their continuity on his story simply due to the editorial process of Marvel. [b](EDIT-I should have been more specific here, Millar wasn't really against the other storylines, just that the world continuity got muddy.)[/b]
I too loved the Punisher moment when he kills two villains. Afterwards Cap beats the crap out of Punisher who doesn't fight back. It's a defining moment showing just how problematic uncompromising morals can be and how close Cap is to crossing the line into fanaticism. At that point Tony had already crossed that line as shown by him secretly monitoring Spiderman through the Iron-Spider suit and including the kill switch as a preventative measure in case Spiderman ever switched sides.
Man, while it was awful that Bill 'Goliath' Foster was killed, the art from those few panels where Thorborg shows up and just starts laying people out... chilling. I thought they did an amazing job capturing the emotion of (no pun intended) thunderous rage. And it also emphasized just how powerful Thor really is.
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I agree that moment was chilling. For me it wasn't the rage he displayed but the merciless manner in which he fought. I mean the first thing he says is he is going to kill Dagger. When first reading it I remember being shocked that Thor would act this way because, at the time, we didn't know this was a clone/robot.
The only better example of unchecked rage is the end of World War Hulk. It's not the power Hulk displays (which is insane) but the fact that the hate Hulk displays is so encompassing that he even hates himself. It's a pitiable moment showing Hulk has no defense against the source of his power (anger) and that for the first time Hulk (not Banner) sees how he is going to consume himself.
The most powerful member of the Fantastic Four stopped the most powerful of the Avengers, the Invisible Woman saved them all from an enormous lightning just the following panel/page. The gaze she throws at the husband is amazing too, really Mr Fantastic (and Iron Man) didn't just kill Goliath but if it wasn't for the wife another group of heroes would have been dead too (they would have killed half the Marvel universe with one miscalculation).
In that moment Reed Richards and Tony Stark were some of the most amazing "villains" ever and Susan Storm was forced to leave and oppose them (still she believed in the husband's ability to fix the whole matter with his genius soon or later, she just hoped it wouldn't happen too late).
I liked most of Planet Hulk, and I didn't follow most of World War Hulk (other than the fight with Juggernaut, of course) but the part that I did see was that Hulk had defeated Black Bolt, which I completely disagreed with. I get that Hulk was "angrier than he's ever been", but Black Bolt can level [i]cities[/i] with his [i]voice[/i], which I feel puts him on a whole different level... only to have the writers pull some hokey twist where it was actually a Super Skrull. Bleh.
Edit: Oh, I did read the tie-in with Ghost Rider where Dr. Strange states the level of power that the Spirit of Vengeance truly has, which was near infinite, and is (usually) restrained by the human host (in this case, Dan Ketch). They also showed, which I liked, that once Dan Ketch was unconscious and the Ghost Rider was no longer restrained, he just drove off giving the Hulk a free pass to pursue his revenge.
The whole ret-conning that was a part of the Secret Invasion was annoying as a reader to be sure. I never had a problem with Hulk beating Black Bolt personally but that's an argument that can never be resolved.
Yyyeeeaaahhh... Secret Invasion... to be fair, I didn't mind seeing Nick Fury show up, guns blazing and wrecking Skrulls, but yeah that was about it.
Now I want a What If comic of if Robo Thor killed the anti-registration side. Like, if Sue acted too slow.
Anyway onto Secret Invasion I have only read one book related to that and it was the Runaways tie-in. Lot's of neat stuff in there, especially as the Runaways had their own Super Skrull in training on their team.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I would say it would really depend on the writer and if they had any decent amount of time on the book in question in order to develop story lines over the long haul. the Claremont run on X-Men (from back in the day) will always stand out for me and Annihilation (specifically Abnett and Lanning) was a boon for Marvel Cosmic.
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As a plot concept The Secret Invasion idea was not bad (not good either, just meh) but I personally feel that the exploitative ret-con of the previous few years was awful. It ended up cheapening the defining moments over those years.
If the invasion story was in the works for those years and all the events leading up to it were written with this event in mind from the start it could have been the most bold piece of story telling Marvel, possibly any comic, had ever done. As it was the story involved so much revisionist writing that it amounted to little more than hand waving.
It's bad enough when individual comics do this (Gwen Stacy banged The Green Goblin and had two kids secretly???) but when it affects almost the entire Marvel universe it just makes you want to pull your hair out. Same thing can be said for Superboy punching reality, Marvel's 'Decimation' or many other storylines whose main result is to change the current reality.
That's not to say there are not ways to do this kind of revising well. The Buckey turned Winter Soldier is pretty decent example. So was the COIE storyline.
Secret Invasion holds a special place for me. One I reserve for people who blow their nose then look in the hanky or who don't wipe their feet when coming in from the rain. Secret Invasion wasn't a way to correct continuity errors or to reverse an unpopular event in the comics history. Secret Invasion didn't care about the history of the comics it was messing with all it wanted to do was pervert them to tell yet another Skrull invasion story.
He pretty much does. I forget what comic it was but they flat out explained [i]why[/i] Doom, who has proven on many occasions that he's right and would be better served ruling the world, is such an enemy to the justice-loving types. Because there is no free will, only Doom's will, and a literal utopia without crime, hunger, or poverty but also without the freedom of choice is a way worse fate than what the world is now.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
I don't recall exactly where these appear, but it was mentioned in one of the tie-ins that at least some of Reed's and Tony's data had come from the company, Damage Control, which was paid to repair the destruction caused by super fights, and in another there was evidence that someone had been distributing mutant growth hormone (causing an increase in the power levels of those who took it). Fortunately, [url=https://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Mutant_Growth_Hormone#Civil_War]someone[/url] recorded the basic information, if not the whole story. To me, the combination of those points indicates that all of disaster-looming-on-the-horizon calculations of Reed and Tony were based on suspect data.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
Yeah [url=https://imgur.com/gallery/EtDwU]Thor Wasn't too happy with Stark once he got back[/url]
Loved that.
Man, what's with event comics and being kinda bad? (Obviously not talking about all event comics, some are good like the original crisis event comic, and the technics imperative)
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I think it has to do with making the story the focus and not the characters. For the most part, comics are character driven storytelling but these large crossover events turn them into event driven storytelling. The poorly written, 'one size fits all' events make the reader feel the characters they love are nothing more than actors in the wrong play.
There is also the fact that many of these world shaking events (mass ret-cons or reboots) are designed to bring in new readers at the expense of alienating their existing fanbase. Once those new readers are on board much of those events are quickly reversed or just plain forgotten.
After Civil War the registry was pretty much forgotten and they found a way to make the world forget that Spiderman revealed his identity. After the House of M story, most of the mutants lost their powers (Decimation event) so the writers spent much of their time finding ways to quickly return the powers of the known mutants. It didn't take long for more and more alternate realities to turn up in DC again after COIE, an event which was supposed to merge those realities and fix continuity.
When these events have limited lasting effect or, worse yet, the events are actively subverted by the writers all it does is create an indifference to those events in the readers minds.
At least that's how I see it.
A lot of writers/editors have a bad habit of just reverting things to the status quo. Or even older status quos. Character from their childhood been dead for years? Oh look, they're alive now!
Oh, and also on the subject of event comics they usually end up killing a bunch of characters for practically no reason other than to try and shock the reader.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."