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Base battles?

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Ellysyn
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Base battles?

Is that something that we will see here? Base raids and such. Assuming the SG opts to allow base raiding. It's something sadly I never got to experience since I wasn't part of a SG back in CoH.

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It's something that could be

It's something that could be fun, assuming they get enough hammered out in generic PvP. I'd see it as a variant on "capture the flag" personaly but that's just me.

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Quote:
Quote:

It's something sadly I never got to experience since I wasn't part of a SG back in CoH.

Most people in SGs didn't get to experience them, either. They were pretty broken and once turned off for repair, were never turned back on again as I recall.

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I was never a part of my SG's

I was never a part of my SG's base raids - timing issues as much as anything - but the others did enjoy them while they lasted. If there was one reason I didn't much care for the base raiding it is that optimizing the SG base for that kind of PvP required some particular design approaches (e.g. long corridors with turrets to maximize 'on target' time).

The one bug that had the base defenses shoot at anyone who entered was 'fun'. Especially if you forgot about it and went to the SG base with a low level character, and then had to run a gauntlet of turrets and other defenses taking a bite out of you. I believe once they finally got around to turning that off it was the end of base raiding. I suppose there weren't enough SGs engaged in it for them to bother to fix it.

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I enjoyed the base raids, but

I enjoyed the base raids, but my SQ rarely ran them for two main reasons:

1. The base raid shut everyone out of the base for the duration, so people running PvE content couldn't use the base. The raids should have spawned a new instance of the base for the raid.

2. We never had one of the "relics", so we just ran them for fun, but the raid rules were always the same - place X number of pylons (or whatever they were called), and the enemy players always spawned in the same "doorway". There should be multiple sets of optional rules for base raids (capture the flag, destroy X items, attack each other's bases simultaneous, enter through normal base entrance, etc.) to let the players run the raids they want to run.

Finally, my SG did try to use a couple raids to role-play stories for their characters, but it didn't work out very well. However, if we could've used our base as the map in the mission architect...

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Any sort of PvP is anathema

Any sort of PvP is anathema to me. A base should be a secure place for socializing, not a place for griefing and stress creation.

Just say NO! to base raids!

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Base raids were, and should

Base raids were, and should be, optional. As for your oppinion on PvP, not everyone agrees with you. Some of us like the thrill of combatting enemies who are as smart, or smarter than we are. Aside from the thrill, the RP value of base raids is infinite. Rivalries, revenge, theft, kidnapping, all the things that super hero and villain stories are about.

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Steel Cobra wrote:
Steel Cobra wrote:

Base raids were, and should be, optional. As for your oppinion on PvP, not everyone agrees with you. Some of us like the thrill of combatting enemies who are as smart, or smarter than we are. Aside from the thrill, the RP value of base raids is infinite. Rivalries, revenge, theft, kidnapping, all the things that super hero and villain stories are about.

You make some excellent points with regard to role-playing potential. It would also make me feel better if base raids were optional. I would most certainly keep my personal lair flagged for "No PvP".

I hope it doesn't sound silly, but I wouldn't mind a "kinder, gentler" PvP, where the darker, baser nature of humans was left behind in the real world. It's been my experience that PvP brings out the predatory nature of people and those people like to back stab (from invisibility) people 49 levels lower than they are and then get on General Chat and rant and rave and trashtalk.

PvP, if put into the game, should be fun for *both* sides, not just the professional griefer.

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One of the few redeeming

One of the few redeeming aspects of WAR was a mechanic against griefers. If someone who was too high level went in to a lower level zone and attacked someone, they were instantly turned into a chicken with one hit point. I don't know if this stayed in the game, but I did see it on occasion, and loved the implementation. For Base Raids, it wouldn't be hard to auto-sidekick everyone to 50 and reduce the PvP gap.

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Just to be clear on a couple

Just to be clear on a couple of things (subject to change, batteries not included, warning choking hazard)

We will never force anyone to PvP, baseraid or otherwise. It will always be optional.

We will be evaluating many aspects of PvP to make sure it is as fun as possible for everyone involved.

My personal hope is to make PvP as accessible as possible so players don't have to "learn 2 seperate ways" to play the same character. This does not mean that PvP will always be equal with PvE play but where as much as possible the fundamental mechanics for how powers operate will remain the same. It also means that there will be fun ways to get involved in PvP beyond "i want to beat up people operating virtual avatars" (note beyond does imply that part is still there). I'm not on the comp team but my player-based opinion is to use arenas as more than "that place to go pvp". Titan City being an analogue of our modern world should use an areana in the same manner we use ours; to watch sporting events. I'm not saying we'll add actual sports, but in the sense of PvP where players are duking it out either 1v1 or teamvteam. Where other players can spectate, and participators can earn "championships" "trophies" and other such rewards. There's more to the over-all concept of PvP accessibility beyond this, but its to at least portray an idea.


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Races, betting and concerts

Races, betting and concerts all happen at arenas...

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I used to be an SG leader,

I used to be an SG leader, and we had a huge blast with pvp Base Raiding.

There was somewhat of an unfair advantage it seemed for large super groups that were able to farm incredible amounts of influence to construct overwhelming defenses that were just too overpowering. If base raiding is implemented, then I hope there is a limit to the construction of defenses so that there will be a more level playing field between small and large supergroups.

What killed Base Raiding IMO was the bugs and glitches. One side would be winning, and then all of a sudden ... "connection to server lost"... CRASH. I've been in base raids where we were losing and then crashes saved our butts, and the winning side was so furious.

If you were into PVP, Base Raiding was the shiznit. It was very difficult organizing 8-16 man teams for each side. The raids would not start back then I believe unless each side had 16 people per team.

I have done PVP warfronts in RIFT and I like how their engine evenly assigns members per side depending on who is available per side. It even allowed members of the opposite side opportunities to team with the otherside (e.g. "villains" teaming with "heroes", etc.).

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Amerikatt wrote:
Amerikatt wrote:

I hope it doesn't sound silly, but I wouldn't mind a "kinder, gentler" PvP.

Maybe we could have a pillow fight?

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Guardian333 wrote:
Guardian333 wrote:

I used to be an SG leader, and we had a huge blast with pvp Base Raiding.
There was somewhat of an unfair advantage it seemed for large super groups that were able to farm incredible amounts of influence to construct overwhelming defenses that were just too overpowering. If base raiding is implemented, then I hope there is a limit to the construction of defenses so that there will be a more level playing field between small and large supergroups.

If this was the case (I only say if because "too overpowering" can be very subjective) then that does indicate a sloppy implementation of base building. As I said, I never participated in base raiding but, in my view, the fight should primarily be against the other team/SG rather than their base. A possible approach is to give a base a point value, much like units in tabletop wargaming have point values, so that those going in have an idea of how much of a challenge they'll be facing.

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The other option is to have

The other option is to have four or five Tiers of Base Raids. The only way to participate in a base raid is to have a War Room. War Rooms cost Prestige (or whatever currency guilds acquire). War Room 1 is 100k prestige and has a limited amount of weapon mounts and defense mounts. War Room 2 has more, etc, etc. You can only do a raid within your tier. Also, you don't have to dump Tier 1 to get Tier 2. You can keep all the tiers and queue up for whatever raids are available. IE, you have all five War Rooms, but the guild you want to raid only has up to Tier 3. So, you face off in the Tier 3 War Rooms.

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Long as my sisters and I can

Long as my sisters and I can raid a villains base. I'm happy.

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CoH/CoV Base Raiding was fun

CoH/CoV Base Raiding was fun for the following objectives:

Objective #1 : Hero Base (or whoever hosts the Base raid) hides *three "anchors"* in their base.
- the "invading supergroup" has to find the three anchors.
- when all three anchors are clicked on, the raid is over.
- Therefore, the anchors where heavily guarded by base defenses (lasers, freeze rays, etc), but these BASE DEFENSES were very expensive. It cost a lot of prestige. Only the RICH & very large supergroups were able to afford insane amounts of these expensive Base Defenses. They were able to make impenetrable hallways of death gauntlets.

Objective #2: Invading supergroups had to *seek and destroy* the [main power generator] that powers the entire Base. This part of the base was 'theee' most heavily guarded part of the base. In fact, our whole super group practically waited in this room, and all hell broke loose when the fight got to this room. TONS of fun. Epic battles. So sad I never took screen shots of these battles because these were epic fights. If anyone has screen shots of these, I would LOVE to see them.

PET PEAVES: Whenever anyone died, you would re-spawn outside of the base if you or the hosting base did not have a medic bay. Whenever we invaded, died, and re-entered.... the defending team used to *camp* the re-entry portals.

I used to keep a channel open with the opposing raid leader, and would tell him things like: "Can you please tell your guys to stop "cheesing" and stop camping your entry portal" etc.

Whoever developed Base Raiding for CoX, Cryptic or Paragon, my hats off to you. Very genious ideas. I can't believe it never lasted as much as Player Designed Missions.

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Guardian333 wrote:
Guardian333 wrote:

Whoever developed Base Raiding for CoX, Cryptic or Paragon, my hats off to you. Very genious ideas. I can't believe it never lasted as much as Player Designed Missions.

Base Raiding never "lasted" in CoH because it was plagued with all sorts of balance issues (both with in-game powers and resource costs) as well as server bandwidth and stability problems. Basically it was never ready for primetime and any base raiding you managed to enjoy was almost a miracle on your part.

Now I'm not trying to say that base raiding the way the CoH Devs originally envisioned it will always be an impossible goal. I would simply stress that it's going to be hard enough for the Devs of CoT to get this new game going in the first place so I wouldn't get my hopes up that we'll see a balanced, workable SG raid system on Day One.

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Base raids were one of the

Base raids were one of the most fun and original elements to CoH. It's too bad they were fatally flawed. A huge amount of effort had to be put into making sure that the base was raid-capable, and that having 32 people in a small area didn't overload the server. There are a few points I'd like to make regarding this functionality.

First, the CoH developers spent a huge amount of effort trying to come up with an algorithm for determining if access to the important base spots was blocked. Generators, dimensional anchors, the entrance, etc, all had to be accessible. They never really got the algorithm right, and in the end, that's what broke the raids. If you're going to re-institute raids, I strongly recommend making all objects in a base destructable or manipulatable, so that you don't have to check to see if access is blocked. You just have to allow the attackers to destroy anything in their path.

Second, on the point of PvP in general, I really enjoyed the Counterstrike model for PvP, where each side had a goal. Capture the flag, save the hostages, plant (or disable) the bomb, etc. All of this adds quite a bit to the otherwise limited arrangement of "kill everyone you can" and promotes teamwork. I'd like to see more of that.

Third, since PvP is entirely voluntary, I think it would be entirely reasonable to have two different types of bases. One for show, one for raids. The raid bases could be kept simple so that it didn't overload everyone's machines in the heat of battle. The "for show" bases could then be as complex as the players liked, possibly even taking a Second-Life kind of approach that allows players to create and display custom designed objects.

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MythologicalBeast wrote:
MythologicalBeast wrote:

Base raids were one of the most fun and original elements to CoH. It's too bad they were fatally flawed. A huge amount of effort had to be put into making sure that the base was raid-capable, and that having 32 people in a small area didn't overload the server. There are a few points I'd like to make regarding this functionality.
First, the CoH developers spent a huge amount of effort trying to come up with an algorithm for determining if access to the important base spots was blocked. Generators, dimensional anchors, the entrance, etc, all had to be accessible. They never really got the algorithm right, and in the end, that's what broke the raids. If you're going to re-institute raids, I strongly recommend making all objects in a base destructable or manipulatable, so that you don't have to check to see if access is blocked. You just have to allow the attackers to destroy anything in their path.
Second, on the point of PvP in general, I really enjoyed the Counterstrike model for PvP, where each side had a goal. Capture the flag, save the hostages, plant (or disable) the bomb, etc. All of this adds quite a bit to the otherwise limited arrangement of "kill everyone you can" and promotes teamwork. I'd like to see more of that.
Third, since PvP is entirely voluntary, I think it would be entirely reasonable to have two different types of bases. One for show, one for raids. The raid bases could be kept simple so that it didn't overload everyone's machines in the heat of battle. The "for show" bases could then be as complex as the players liked, possibly even taking a Second-Life kind of approach that allows players to create and display custom designed objects.

What about the entrance where the invaders appear, there's a large explosion large enough to destroy everything in the way to clear a proper size path for them to invade in through.

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This is an interesting idea,

"What about the entrance where the invaders appear, there's a large explosion large enough to destroy everything in the way to clear a proper size path for them to invade in through."

This is an interesting idea, to be certain. Maybe you have numerous types of locations for bases (e.g., underground, skyscraper, office park, oribt), each of which has advantages and disadvantages and the associated cost. This would identify the type of assault that the bases were vulnerable to. Maybe an underground base is really expensive, but you have to pay the mole men to get into it. Office park bases are cheap, but attacking them is easy and the insurance cost is prohibitive. :)

This would identify how expensive it would be to create a "hole", if multiple holes could be made, and how easy it is to get back through that hole if you got killed. Also, portable resurrection units just outside the hole may or may not be possible.

Ok, going off the deep end here, I realize, but my imagination was piqued.

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At this level of detail, it

At this level of detail, it might be easier just to recreate actual super heroes with super powers. Bring on the radiation!

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Ah yes...,

Ah yes...,

- ...base raids. Include them...make them optional. Have it so villains can, after doing a series of 'paper missions', elect to either do a bank heist or a base raid (...to teach them do-gooders a thing or two...). Maybe have some 'base raid' queue system for those who'd like to participate - imagine a small group of players returning to base after a long story arc, just wanting to unwind...only to find 'Injustice, Inc' trashing the place...or a solo villain arriving at his 'not-so-secret' lair after his latest successful nefarious deed to find a vengeful hero waiting in the shadows... ^_^

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>.> I want to run a bank

>.> I want to run a bank heist. Those were fun. Then fighting off waves of police and then a hero would appear to make the pitiful attempt to stop my brute from escaping with the monies. Be neat though to see some PvP versions. But how would something like that be handled I wondered. Is it just straight out time limit? And if you are defeated do you respawn? Do heroes get to respawn?

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There was a time limit with

There was a time limit with the base raids, but I forget for how long.

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well according the toe 20's

well according the toe 20's podcast many signs point towards base raids being a doable thing in CoT

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Steel Cobra wrote:
Steel Cobra wrote:

One of the few redeeming aspects of WAR was a mechanic against griefers. If someone who was too high level went in to a lower level zone and attacked someone, they were instantly turned into a chicken with one hit point..

LMAO. Now that's funny right there.

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The problem with base raids

The problem with base raids is you can either design your base to be esthetically pleasing, or you can design it to be as raid-difficult as possible, but not both.

You could work arouund this by having raid-related items (turrets, etc.) be placeable as wall popouts. Then you wouldn't need long corridors with big lion statues that shoot bees out of their mouths.

You would still have issues tugging in two directions if you can layout room topology though, or make people have to fight thru furniture like walls of desks, in CoH terms, where bases were less bases than custom kill zones.

I don't know a solution to this problem.

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They messed up when they got

They messed up when they got rid of base raids that's all i have to say. They shouldn't of done that he's just a kid.

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Gorgon wrote:
Gorgon wrote:

The problem with base raids is you can either design your base to be esthetically pleasing, or you can design it to be as raid-difficult as possible, but not both.

If one views bases in the same light as characters, the answer is obvious. I've no idea if there are any considerations that would prevent this from being practicable.

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MythologicalBeast wrote:
MythologicalBeast wrote:

Base raids were one of the most fun and original elements to CoH. It's too bad they were fatally flawed.

Thank you for nailing my thoughts on the subject in two short sentences. Base raids were an absolute hoot despite the glitches, exploits and griefing (some players even went as far as establishing in house raiding "rules" to work around these problems). There was something about defending your turf or invading someone else's that just got my excitement level up. Much of it had to do with the ever evolving nature of the situation you were facing. It was the opposite of grinding. I just wish more people were given the opportunity to experience that. It could have changed the whole dynamic of how people looked at pvp in CoH. If MWM can pull base raids off technically, I believe the effort would pay off greatly.

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The only way I can come up

The only way I can come up with to make Base vs Base Raiding a "fair" PvP exercise is to do what functionally amounts to "destructible volumes" of spaces within Bases. Basic notion being that anything within a defined volume of space is destructible ... whether it is functional or purely decorative. That way, any sort of "obstacle course" that gets built can be "blown through" by an invader, if necessary. You then need a set of rules for "chaining" these destructible volumes together, creating "pipelines" of connection between all of the PvP relevant functional items within the spaces that define a Base.

In the grand scheme of things, the simplest way to do this is to Define Volumes of empty space and flag them as PvE (indestructible items) or PvP (destructible items). Set rules for the Minimum Size of destructible PvP spaces (say, just for the sake of argument ... 32 ft by 32 ft by 32 ft ... which would be 1 "block volume" on the old City of Heroes base editor) and how they "connect" to each other. I'm putting a marker down for a larger PvP block volume size so as to be able to accommodate "giant" monsters inside of bases (what TERA would call "BAMs") activities and events that aren't strictly PvP but can have a more PvE flavor to them, such as NPC invasion missions in which your base gets raided by NPCs (damn Malta/Knives/Circle/Carnies/Rikti/DE always trying to bust in and wreck the place!).

City of Heroes tried (and failed) to solve this issue by setting up "invisible" pipelines of PvP "space" in bases that could have NOTHING inside of them, thus ensuring freedom of movement. This led to a lot of really WEIRD limitations due to how the programming was set up (and then never touched ever again, except to turn it off). I'm suggesting doing the reverse here, where anything inside of a "PvPable volume" can be destroyed, and the tougher it is to destroy the more expensive it is to buy (flimsy is cheap, sturdy is expensive). That then gives you the core of something that can then be used not only for building Bases, but also for creating Mission Environments (ie. the ubiquitous Warehouse Interior Map) ... including outdoor Mayhem Missions and the like (hint hint).


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Mendicant wrote:
Mendicant wrote:

Quote:
It's something sadly I never got to experience since I wasn't part of a SG back in CoH.
Most people in SGs didn't get to experience them, either. They were pretty broken and once turned off for repair, were never turned back on again as I recall.

Base raids were far from "broken"

P.o.N successfully completed hundereds of base raids and in fact had multiple items of power upon their release.

the thing that went bad with base raid was simply pathing issues.... and ill explain.
In order to "win" a base raid you had to destroy all the "dimensional anchors" There were i Believe 5-6 I cant remember which. Anyway, with the ablity the devs opened up with the "stacking" it was possible to create a room, then make it impossible to access that room, so if you placed an anchor in there, you could not lose the base raid.
When the dev found this out they had a choice, disable stacking in bases, which if they did this there would have been a global uprising, or disable base raids until a solution could be implemented.

Was given this information directly from several devs at the 2009 Hero Con

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XxBudweiser4xX wrote:
XxBudweiser4xX wrote:

Mendicant wrote:
Quote:
It's something sadly I never got to experience since I wasn't part of a SG back in CoH.

Most people in SGs didn't get to experience them, either. They were pretty broken and once turned off for repair, were never turned back on again as I recall.

Base raids were far from "broken"
P.o.N successfully completed hundereds of base raids and in fact had multiple items of power upon their release.
the thing that went bad with base raid was simply pathing issues.... and ill explain.
In order to "win" a base raid you had to destroy all the "dimensional anchors" There were i Believe 5-6 I cant remember which. Anyway, with the ablity the devs opened up with the "stacking" it was possible to create a room, then make it impossible to access that room, so if you placed an anchor in there, you could not lose the base raid.
When the dev found this out they had a choice, disable stacking in bases, which if they did this there would have been a global uprising, or disable base raids until a solution could be implemented.
Was given this information directly from several devs at the 2009 Hero Con

Yep, that would be the broken part. With raid pathing enabled base design was limited and with it disabled it was possible to build a base such that anchors could not be reached. There was talk about adding a setting that would enable/disable raiding for a base and raid pathing had to be satisfied before you could enable it, but nothing came of that. Given the nest of code that was bases, I expect it was more difficult than it sounded.

TheMightyPaladin
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base raids in a superhero

base raids in a superhero game don't really make sense unless it's heroes vs villains. Why would the fantastic 4 raid the avengers mansion? would the x-men raid the 4 freedoms plaza? would the teen titans attack the justice league satellite?
OK maybe all of these things could happen if the story called for it. Maybe some of it has happened, I dunno, but it would have to be part of a story and there would be a good reason for the raid. It wouldn't just be a training exercise, or a treasure hunt.

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Heroes vs villains, obviously

Heroes vs villains, obviously. Also, villains vs villains. Heroes vs heroes is less common, but has happened in various comics. Often involving things like mind control, alternate universe duplicates, or misinformation.

And whomever is setting up the raid could set up the corresponding story. Or no story at all if the people playing aren't RPers and just want to see the Avengers take on the Justice League.

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The pathing issue is one of

The pathing issue is one of the major reasons why I'm of the opinion that if you're going to enable "combat" within a Base AT ALL there needs to be a way to define "pipes" of access to all of the relevant parts and pieces of what would make a Base Raid an enjoyable/competitive activity. Because when you can "hide" objectives in inaccessible regions, you're effectively "cheating" at playing the game.

The trouble is working out how to do the Pipe Pathing in such a way as to prevent exploitation.


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What if the base gets split

What if the base gets split into two areas?
The living area which can be designed with as little limitations possible, the way it was like in City of Heroes. Or even better, hopefully. That would be the basic hangout for guild meetings and convenience like teleporters and medical station would be there.

And then the fortress, which is where the PvP would happen. In this area, the rules can be different. Everything you can place to block a players path could be destroyable. Or the design options are limited, so it is not possible to completely block the way to the prize. Or both.

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I prefer to think of it as

I prefer to think of it as being a PvP space defined as being "within" the rest of the PvE space. So you'd essentially have "blocks" of PvP volume(s) that then have "rules" for how those blocks can be fitted together (to prevent certain maze/blockage absurdities. Within those PvP volumes, there would be strict Pathing Rules that are non-negotiable ... things like needing to be able to "walk" everywhere without needing to "jump" over or past obstacles (including Teleportation) ... and restrictions on object collisions, such that you can't put things inside of other things.

In other words ... "pipes" ... of space devoted to PvP Functionality so as to "build in" fairness.

Wrapped around these "pipes" of PvP dedicated space would be the rest of the PvE space, where you don't have to worry about pathing rules and there aren't any restrictions on hit box collisions, allowing you to stack decorative items within other decorative items.


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I managed to enjoy a few

I managed to enjoy a few baseraids and enjoyed them alot. Boy you guys sure weren't wrong about the issues though! Most of which were caused by the undocumented spaghetti code of bases, but more than a few by player behavior too. The devs, despite the best of intentions, were wrong about how players would join and/or use SGs. Just getting a base ready for one required being in the top 100 on Victory until they lowered the rent. And that was just to have the OPTION. Organizing even a handfull of players on both side was a big challenge. Master Minds were at a HUGE disadvantage as it could take 2 minutes to set up and be out of endurance when it was done.

And then base design for PvP was it's own steep learning curve. One top 10 VG had their entry portal in a depression. Talking about a 6" step. So we took out the medbays and forced them to enter into a Tar Patch.... good times..

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yesplease. I love Wildstar

yesplease. I love Wildstar and haven't been in a Warplot since launch

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