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Barrier of Content

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DesViper
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Barrier of Content

One thing that bothered me in CoH, and bothers me about all create-your-own games is the barrier of content that is not available to you but is available to the devs.

For example, see Statesman, the centrepeice of CoH canon, his mask was something totally unavailable to players. Not even a similar mask could be applied to a character. For another, see Mako. His head style isn't something a player can even come close to. BaB's gloves could be emulated almost, but the size couldn't.

The examples go on, the point is, it's annoying as a player to see options available to devs but nothing even close comes to us. It might be odd to see an exact copy of Anthem or Rott running around, but if a player wants that, I don't see why not. Asymmetry has been mentioned in the costume forums, so that covers Anthem-like pieces.

I just hope, and wish to voice here, that CoT doesn't have the barrier of content that CoH (and most create-your-own games) had, and allow players to come to the level of complexity and content that the devs make for the game.


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While I respect that opinion

While I respect that opinion and understand there are others who feel the same, I disagree with it. I think it's essential to have some elements that make signature characters special so that they stand out from the crowd. Just my 2 inf.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I respect your opinion but I

I respect your opinion but I agree with Cinnder, having costume pieces/parts that are unavailable to players makes the flagships standout and makes them flagships, IMO.

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I can understand that, but at

I can understand that, but at least having something close takes away the annoyance.
CoH didn't have masks (face-covering ones, not cowls), the kind of armour Lord Recluse had, the Jacob's Ladder Freakshow had, the simple clothing citizens or scrapyarders had, the equipment 5th column and counsel had, or the kind of robotic arms their robots had, or the steampunk style clockwork had, the kind of robe Circle of Thorms had, etc etc

I'd like something of the same genre to be available to characters, maybe not exact copies.

EDIT: On the similar note, the flagship supergroup/supervillains can definitely have uniqueness, but the lesser groups can be stolen from I feel. Analog: Freedom Phalanx can be fully unique, but a Circle of Thorns robe can still be worn.


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I'd mentioned in another

I'd mentioned in another thread, some time ago, that I have no problem with allowing NPC to have unique attacks. I agree that it can become an issue when NPCs have powers that are essentially a Version 2.0 of a power available to players. The example in that other thread were the Paragon Protectors, who were able to use a Moment of Glory that lasted considerably longer than it did for players.

That isn't to say that I categorically object to something like MoG v. 2.0, provided there's at least some visual cue to indicate that it is not exactly the same power that the players use (only not).

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A thing I never quite liked

A thing I never quite liked in CO is Destroyer having a SUPAH Handblaster Beam...compared to the one players got. The same goes for the bubble shield-esque ability that both Shadow and Dr. D had which stayed on forever and actually LOOKED like a bubble shield, unlike the two available to players which was a cheap sphere effect with little protection. I understand that these two are the flagship villains and are supposed to be "nigh invulnerable" but the fact that no power looked even close (Concussor Beams looked nothing like that, don't lie) and the effect was so desirable (Nightmare using a blue colored one? HELL YES.) made it all the more infuriating.

CoH I had less of a problem with because the NPCs didn't really have anything I liked, and if they did then you could get it anyway through either the store or missions or ingame currency.

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As someone who paid for an

As someone who paid for an exclusive costume in the Kickstarter I see the value in exclusivity. That envy we feel is a good thing IMO.

I do think certain elements of the story should be allowed.. but many players want to be the official "son of" this character or otherwise.. this annoys me but it's not worth completely withholding elements.

I don't want to see someone else with Anthem's special armor arm, but I wouldn't want them to NOT have patriotic costuming options just because Anthem wears them

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I don't want to see someone else with Anthem's special armor arm, but I wouldn't want them to NOT have patriotic costuming options just because Anthem wears them

I agree. I wouldn't want to see other people running around with an exact copy of Anthem's special armor arm, but I wouldn't mind seeing other versions of generic arm armor widely available to anyone who'd want it.

I think the problem with being "envious" of certain flagship items in CoH came from the fact that players often didn't even have access to plain/generic versions of those things. I think it'd only be fair If players were allowed to have plain/alternate versions of every item in the game even if some examples of those items are unique to special NPC/flagship characters.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

As someone who paid for an exclusive costume in the Kickstarter I see the value in exclusivity. That envy we feel is a good thing IMO.
I do think certain elements of the story should be allowed.. but many players want to be the official "son of" this character or otherwise.. this annoys me but it's not worth completely withholding elements.
I don't want to see someone else with Anthem's special armor arm, but I wouldn't want them to NOT have patriotic costuming options just because Anthem wears them

Well, you have that special piece for a year or 4 issues, which ever comes first. Then it becomes available for everyone. And of course, there's you giving the ability to use it to whoever you want.

So that exclusivity only goes so far.

That said, I never had a problem with signature characters having an exclusive costume item. But something that could do, is make that signature piece obtainable through content...complete 100 of this 20 man raid and you obtain the hero's mask!

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I find this an interesting

I find this an interesting topic because it deals with a wide range of issues beyond just exclusivity and iconic elements, but also extends to oversaturation of character creation.

One of the things I loved about City of Heroes was they had a wide range of enemy groups and all of them were different. Some enemies could be mostly replicated by players others could not. So, what happens when you take all those enemy costume pieces and shove them in with the already extensive player costume pieces library? You wind up with a overwhelmingly massive number of options for your first time player. Options are great, because they keep people come back to a piece of content (and character creation in CoH was content). The problem is when you give too many options too fast a player feels like he might be missing things or might freeze up. So what do you do about this?

I think Brand X hit the nail on the head: unlockable content.

Take your game, the first time you log in you create a character.
You start with a small range of options, basic tight patters (Bars, chevrons, circles, etc) a few jackets, a bunch of masks, a small number of gloves and boots, basic clothes.
One of the first things you do in the tutorial is unlock more costume pieces, and the tutorial explains what that means.
Then at the end of the tutorial you are sent back to the costume editor to create an civilian disguise, and once you are in there you also have it pointed out that you have opened up new costume pieces for your supersuit and may want to update your look.
Now you've established how this system works.
The player keeps playing, he's out in the world now and the first missions you choose have you fighting the Wicked Words and their leader Baron Balderdash. After you defeat a number of thugs you unlock the Wicked Words iconic gang jacket which you can now use, since this is your first enemy defeat costume unlock you then have it explained that if you keep defeating gang members you will continue to unlock more of their outfit pieces. At the end of the chain you finally come face to face with Baron Boulderdash and upon his defeat are awarded his unique questionmark aura.
Then when you are on your way back to the world hub you notice an unusual looking donut shop and realize you can walk in. Doing so awards you an exploration badge and the company's logo costume option.
And so on.
What started as maybe 50 costume options has now grown very quickly and entirely in game. It also establishes a standard, so as you run into enemy groups and notice a costume piece you can realize that most likely by playing missions involving that group you can unlock that costume piece, so as the game goes along and more content fills up the levels and multiple leveling paths become available you can more easily choose a direction. Even as all this new content becomes available though it never reaches that point where it becomes overwhelming to a new player.

It might even be neat if you could inspect players and NPCs to see their costume options and if those options were unlocked you could then inspect them to learn how to do it yourself.

Of course, you would also want these unlocks to be account wide, so while you have limited options on initial character creation subsequent alts would have wider options. Costume options normally not unlockable until late levels could be used on first level alts.

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Some costume pieces or sets

Some costume pieces or sets that are unlocked are well and good. If the majority of what can be available in the avatar builder needs to be unlocked the needle swings in the other direction: now the player is overwhelmed with the need to find out where and how to obtain these costume pieces (assuming he or she does not, instead, believe that these costume pieces are not available at all). Players ought to be able to create the character they want, or as close to it as they can get, from the outset. I know I would not be a fan of being require to get to level 20 so I can beat up 100 West Side Jets to get the costume piece(s) I need so that my character finally has the look I want.

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The devs can feel free to

The devs can feel free to overwhelm me with options whenever they feel like it. I promise to figure it all out eventually and praise them for it. However, I also found people masquerading as signature characters unoriginal and irritating (though I guess someone else could think they were "tributes"). So I personally am willing to live with a little envy of exclusive signature character items because it does cut down on that.

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Fire Away wrote:
Fire Away wrote:

The devs can feel free to overwhelm me with options whenever they feel like it. I promise to figure it all out eventually and praise them for it. However, I also found people masquerading as signature characters unoriginal and irritating (though I guess someone else could think they were "tributes"). So I personally am willing to live with a little envy of exclusive signature character items because it does cut down on that.

+1 to all these points.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Some costume pieces or sets that are unlocked are well and good. If the majority of what can be available in the avatar builder needs to be unlocked the needle swings in the other direction: now the player is overwhelmed with the need to find out where and how to obtain these costume pieces (assuming he or she does not, instead, believe that these costume pieces are not available at all). Players ought to be able to create the character they want, or as close to it as they can get, from the outset. I know I would not be a fan of being require to get to level 20 so I can beat up 100 West Side Jets to get the costume piece(s) I need so that my character finally has the look I want.

The idea is that these things exist in game, and as the player plays they see them and want to have them. As an example you might be running a mission and see a cool piece of armor being worn by the thugs you are fighting, you haven't seen this in the editor but wonder if there might be a way to unlock it, so you inspect the enemy and discover that in fact it does have an unlockable costume piece and all you have to do is defeat ten more of these enemies and you will unlock it. The majority of unlocks shouldn't be hard to obtain, the idea is that initially you have a smaller collection,but this quickly grows through standard gameplay. Your first hour in game could easily double your costume options.

Its important to realize that while at release the overwhelming number of costume options probably won't be a problem, years down the road this will most likely change. By creating a system that is easily accessible to the new player, is expansive enough to keep the old player coming back, and has a solid progression between the two you don't risk having to go back and retool the early experience to make it more new user friendly as you have added new systems.

Of course its important to also consider how these expansions will work. One of the things that I initially hated about city of heroes was the gated nature of capes and trenchcoats. Basic pieces such as tights, jackets, and capes should definitely be available, unlocks should largely be unique spins on said pieces.

For instance, you might start with a robotic costume set, but by completing the ARC where you take on Sister Steam and her Clockwork Carnival you might gain a clockwork robot costume set.

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AaronH wrote:
AaronH wrote:

Of course its important to also consider how these expansions will work. One of the things that I initially hated about city of heroes was the gated nature of capes and trenchcoats. Basic pieces such as tights, jackets, and capes should definitely be available, unlocks should largely be unique spins on said pieces.

And some of the clothing options was locked behind the vet rewards as well, so pre-freedom it didn't matter how many accounts you had/how much you spent per month, there was stuff that you had to *wait* to get, and still stay subbed for to earn.

Post freedom launch, it became a case of "how much money have you spent" to get them.

Quote:

For instance, you might start with a robotic costume set, but by completing the ARC where you take on Sister Steam and her Clockwork Carnival you might gain a clockwork robot costume set.

This I can get behind *totally*. One thing that I am in two minds over, is "is it an account unlock or a character based unlock"?

I can see arguments for *both*, Just which side of the coin I fall changes on mood/phase of the moon/what the cat is currently doing...

Side note: When WoW introduced its Transmogrification system, they never stopped solo players from trying to do Dungeon/Raid content to get items which have a specific look. I believe that in their next expansion, they are changing the Transmogrification system so that once you have unlocked a look (for a piece of armour/weapon) you permanently have it unlocked, so you can easily and quickly change the appearance of your character between multiple different weapon/armour skins without affecting your stats.

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AaronH wrote:
AaronH wrote:

I find this an interesting topic because it deals with a wide range of issues beyond just exclusivity and iconic elements, but also extends to oversaturation of character creation.
One of the things I loved about City of Heroes was they had a wide range of enemy groups and all of them were different. Some enemies could be mostly replicated by players others could not. So, what happens when you take all those enemy costume pieces and shove them in with the already extensive player costume pieces library? You wind up with a overwhelmingly massive number of options for your first time player. Options are great, because they keep people come back to a piece of content (and character creation in CoH was content). The problem is when you give too many options too fast a player feels like he might be missing things or might freeze up. So what do you do about this?

I tell you what you do: You have the good sense to give your player credit for not being an idiot. How many times do we have to explain this...we're NOT stupid! I have NEVER, ever heard of a player 'freezing up' because they had too many options. Reducing the game, even on the first time through, to the lowest common denominator will do several bad things:

1) It will seriously piss off the CoH vets and other superhero MMO vets who are coming to this game because we WANT to be buried in character design options.

2) It will wrongly assume what the lowest common denominator IS. This will not only offend MMO vets but might seriously offend potential new players because we're telling them that we don't have faith in their ability to color inside the lines.

3) Force the Devs to somehow limit content. In most cases this comes off as ham-handed at best. What do we limit? How far back to we prune the hedges so the newbs won't 'freeze up?' Fah!

Please don't place your beliefs on me or any other player. You don't know us and your 'freeze up' statement clearly illustrates this. Don NOT attempt to hold my hand or keep me safe in what you might consider YOUR game. You'll only wind up offending me and many like me and drive us away.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

AaronH wrote:
Of course its important to also consider how these expansions will work. One of the things that I initially hated about city of heroes was the gated nature of capes and trenchcoats. Basic pieces such as tights, jackets, and capes should definitely be available, unlocks should largely be unique spins on said pieces.

And some of the clothing options was locked behind the vet rewards as well, so pre-freedom it didn't matter how many accounts you had/how much you spent per month, there was stuff that you had to *wait* to get, and still stay subbed for to earn.
Post freedom launch, it became a case of "how much money have you spent" to get them.
Quote:
For instance, you might start with a robotic costume set, but by completing the ARC where you take on Sister Steam and her Clockwork Carnival you might gain a clockwork robot costume set.

This I can get behind *totally*. One thing that I am in two minds over, is "is it an account unlock or a character based unlock"?
I can see arguments for *both*, Just which side of the coin I fall changes on mood/phase of the moon/what the cat is currently doing...
Side note: When WoW introduced its Transmogrification system, they never stopped solo players from trying to do Dungeon/Raid content to get items which have a specific look. I believe that in their next expansion, they are changing the Transmogrification system so that once you have unlocked a look (for a piece of armour/weapon) you permanently have it unlocked, so you can easily and quickly change the appearance of your character between multiple different weapon/armour skins without affecting your stats.

In game unlocks are per character. purchased are account wide.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

In game unlocks are per character. purchased are account wide.

This makes sense to me. However, I hope in-game costume unlocks are not for the majority of pieces as suggested above. Certain special pieces, of course, but hopefully not for every enemy-group-themed piece. What if you've already played 10 characters to max and you want to make a new character whose backstory has him leaving an enemy group normally encountered only at high levels? (Say, in CoX terms, a Carnie gone rogue.) Would hate to have to play that character all the way up to that higher level before I could make an appropriate costume for him.

Comicsluvr wrote:

I have NEVER, ever heard of a player 'freezing up' because they had too many options.

Agreed. Though I have seen British folks freeze up when there were too many options for salad dressing at an American restaurant. :-)

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

In game unlocks are per character. purchased are account wide.

I don't really like in game unlocks being per character. Nothing is more frustrating than having a great idea for an alt and then having to play through long levels in the hopes of eventually unlocking all of the costume pieces to make it just right. I can see the value in doing it that way, tying accomplishments into individual characters, creating replayability, etc... I just dislike the idea as for me, a serious altoholic, it turns me off.

=Comicsluvr wrote:

You don't know us and your 'freeze up' statement clearly illustrates this. Don NOT attempt to hold my hand or keep me safe in what you might consider YOUR game. You'll only wind up offending me and many like me and drive us away.

Relax, I am not attempting to hold your hand or keep you safe. I am sorry I offended you, I don't consider it my game. You're right, Freeze Up was not the phrase I meant, and I am not specifically looking at people who post here when I talk about this topic. I loved the character creation system from City of Heroes, and I think most of the posters here would be right on board with saying they spent many many hours in it. It was more of a, "They won't use it" over "they can't handle it."

I am thinking about this from a perspective of a wider audience, and there is a part of that audience that will not be interested, at least initially, in fooling around with the costume creator. The idea is to expand the costume creator almost into its own game. Take badge hunting for instance, once you introduced accolade powers, tying rewards into badge hunting you created rewards beyond badges for the badge hunting games they expanded the badge hunting game audience to players who don't really care about badges but do care about the tangible rewards associated. This is where tying costume unlocks and expanding the costume creator into badge hunting comes in.

This of course does itself create a problem. As you have to strike a fine balance between having an expansive enough initial offering to grab people who put costume options as a high priority, and making it easy enough for those players who prioritize other things over it. You also have to look at it from the perspective of how hard is it to unlock these costume pieces? Creating a gate that is too time consuming to get through closes that content off to a portion of your playerbase, but creating a gate that is too easy is a waste of resources.

So, going back to what I said earlier, lets look at jackets:

You might start with the standard trenchcoat, but as you play you might expand it:
Techcoat: Trenchcoat with tons of electronic and metal bits on it.
Arcane Coat: Trenchcoat with arcane symbols on it
Tattered Coat: Trenchcoat with tattered ends and holes in it
and so on

Bringing this back to the original post, a lot of these options you wouldn't even realize are missing from the character creator, until you encounter enemy groups or bosses wearing them.

When I say the majority of options be unlockable, I am looking at it from the perspective that I hope someday this game has a truly prodigious costume creator. Initially we have to accept the reality that it will have to be relatively limited (I say relatively because we're comparing this to CoH which had over 8 years of development) but I hope that down the road we'll have access to more options than any game so far, and I hope as many have said we will have access to all the options of every villain group in the game (Obviously some monsters may not be feasible) and even more from NPCs and Store content.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Gangrel wrote:
AaronH wrote:
Of course its important to also consider how these expansions will work. One of the things that I initially hated about city of heroes was the gated nature of capes and trenchcoats. Basic pieces such as tights, jackets, and capes should definitely be available, unlocks should largely be unique spins on said pieces.

And some of the clothing options was locked behind the vet rewards as well, so pre-freedom it didn't matter how many accounts you had/how much you spent per month, there was stuff that you had to *wait* to get, and still stay subbed for to earn.
Post freedom launch, it became a case of "how much money have you spent" to get them.
Quote:
For instance, you might start with a robotic costume set, but by completing the ARC where you take on Sister Steam and her Clockwork Carnival you might gain a clockwork robot costume set.

This I can get behind *totally*. One thing that I am in two minds over, is "is it an account unlock or a character based unlock"?
I can see arguments for *both*, Just which side of the coin I fall changes on mood/phase of the moon/what the cat is currently doing...
Side note: When WoW introduced its Transmogrification system, they never stopped solo players from trying to do Dungeon/Raid content to get items which have a specific look. I believe that in their next expansion, they are changing the Transmogrification system so that once you have unlocked a look (for a piece of armour/weapon) you permanently have it unlocked, so you can easily and quickly change the appearance of your character between multiple different weapon/armour skins without affecting your stats.

In game unlocks are per character. purchased are account wide.

You mean, hypothetically, that if I beat a super difficult boss in 10:00 mins instead of the usual 30:00 in order to unlock Super-Lad's Crimson-Striped Tidy-Whities of Justice, that I would have to do that with every character in order for each of them to access the item? Those had better be some awesome undies.

I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.

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DCUO has costume parts that

DCUO has costume parts that you find via drops. >.> HATE IT!... Special parts you unlock I am fine with. Getting those ROMAN armor parts for doing your part in Cimerora was awesome and fun.

Having to fight baddies to get the gloves I wanted that aren't special just interesting... AGH.

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RottenLuck wrote:
RottenLuck wrote:

DCUO has costume parts that you find via drops. >.> HATE IT!... Special parts you unlock I am fine with. Getting those ROMAN armor parts for doing your part in Cimerora was awesome and fun.
Having to fight baddies to get the gloves I wanted that aren't special just interesting... AGH.

I cant speak to DCUO but random drops costume pieces drove me nuts in CO. I'm a big believer in the do X gain Y style of rewards.

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RottenLuck wrote:
RottenLuck wrote:

DCUO has costume parts that you find via drops. >.> HATE IT!... Special parts you unlock I am fine with. Getting those ROMAN armor parts for doing your part in Cimerora was awesome and fun.
Having to fight baddies to get the gloves I wanted that aren't special just interesting... AGH.

Not doing random drops. Specific actions for specific returns (such as the Roman armor, cape mission, or those task force things I cannot remember the name for all of a sudden)

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Pasties?

Pasties?

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Pasties?

Only if Cornish.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Not doing random drops. Specific actions for specific returns (such as the Roman armor, cape mission, or those task force things I cannot remember the name for all of a sudden)

This is why you get the loves!

You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?"
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

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Comicsluvr
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Ok AaronH...I can totally get

Ok AaronH...I can totally get behind the 'won't use' part of the CC. More than once I groused about how they seemed to have 25 types of X (horns) and not enough Y (asymmetric patterns). That I can totally agree with. Some of that will be subjective (you might think 2 trench coats is enough while I like 4...we can compromise at 3) and so on.Sorry if I misinterpreted your post and got up on my hind legs. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Automatisch wrote:
Automatisch wrote:

You mean, hypothetically, that if I beat a super difficult boss in 10:00 mins instead of the usual 30:00 in order to unlock Super-Lad's Crimson-Striped Tidy-Whities of Justice, that I would have to do that with every character in order for each of them to access the item? Those had better be some awesome undies.

No only do they have a crimson stripe, but they also come unwashed with a Brown Stripe! ;D

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Pasties?

Is that Anything like a Pake? ;)

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

RottenLuck wrote:
DCUO has costume parts that you find via drops. >.> HATE IT!... Special parts you unlock I am fine with. Getting those ROMAN armor parts for doing your part in Cimerora was awesome and fun.
Having to fight baddies to get the gloves I wanted that aren't special just interesting... AGH.

Not doing random drops. Specific actions for specific returns (such as the Roman armor, cape mission, or those task force things I cannot remember the name for all of a sudden)

Epaulettes ?

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