So we've proven that we can all be passionate about or various favorite parts of the game. I think the Market thread is still going IIRC. However I'd like to discuss Crafting in more detail. Let's forget about how we get the stuff to craft (for now) and focus on WHAT we can craft and HOW EFFECTIVE it is.
Many of you have played more MMOs than me and so have WAY more experience with crafting in its various flavors. So what should we be able to craft and how much should it have an effect on the game?
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I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I have to say, I really liked the way CoH kept crafting separate from actual gear. Yes, you could make an argument that enhancements were "gear", but as I've said elsewhere, it was not attached to your actual costume. I feel that crafting enhancements for your powers was a novel way to incorporate crafting compared to other MMOs.
Every other MMO out there, you craft "gear"; items that give bonuses to your basic stats as opposed to customizing your actual powers. I used to think nothing of this, as it was the standard. Then when I started playing CoH, and becoming familiar with it's crafting system, I was ruined. Ruined, I tell ya.
Now, whenever I start looking into the crafting systems of other MMOs, I cringe. I loathe them. The tedium is mind numbing, and the rewards are pathetic.
So, in the spirit of CoH, I think crafting should focus on enhancing powers, not character stats. Not only will this keep the "no powers attached to gear" theme intact, but it will allow for much more flexibility in power customization. This was the beauty of CoH.
As to what kind of elements are involved, or balancing the costs.... I'll leave that up to the more technically inclined minds to figure out. =)
CO has gear and it's not tied to your costume. In fact, I'd say CO's gear is like enhancements, they're just universal.
Yes, but CO gear enhances Stats, not Powers. So you can't just decide you want 'more accuracy' or 'more damage', but are constantly trying to manipulate your Stats to produce the effect you want. And the gear is not so 'universal', in that you often get extra stats your don't want/need, because you have little or no control over what gear drops.
Also, you can't Craft CO gear.
I'd like crafting in the new City to be a lot like the old City. I'd like to be able to deliberately select the aspects of my powers to be enhanced and by how much. I'd like to be able to, at some point, put multi-aspect enhancements into my 'slots'.
'Set bonuses' might be nice, but I don't consider them important. Except, it might be cool to be able to flat out 'slot an extra function' into my powers. However, that's more of a function of what enhancements are available, rather than 'how crafting works'.
I imagine a hero using basic 'High School Shop Class' or 'Kitchen Chemistry' skills to craft basic items. I also imagine being able to order custom work from local craftshops and then assemble a clever widget on your kitchen table. One might have a '3D Printer' in the secret base, which could produce some items on the fly.
I think it would be appropriate to take a dufflebag full of random weapons, confiscated from local thugs, and turn them in at the police station, in exchange for some bit of high-tech gunsmithing or similar gadgetry. Or collect materials from illegal drug labs and trade them to the Hospital, in exchange for medical supplies and pharmaceuticals.
I'd like to be able to earn Faction with the University Science Club and receive a special gift of some... thing, which I might never have been able to make with my own resources. In fact, I can imagine many Factions that might support a... What are we calling them... a 'Super'? a 'Meta'? a Hero, of course, but that's my own bias. Anyway, I can imagine dozens and dozens of 'local clubs' and larger associations that might supply special items to someone who was doing 'good work'.
I imagine FedUPS delivering a 'Make Your Own Super Gadget' kit, "some assembly required". And that's actually a key - at the most basic level, every hero should be able to assemble a... are we calling them a 'Boost'? A thing to enhance some aspect of their power.
The system that is appearing in my head would be something like the old Base Item crafting system. A crafter gathers, or has gathered for him, many forms of raw 'Materials'. These 'Materials' are combined and refined into a higher classification of 'Parts'. Finally, particular sorts of 'Parts' are assembled into the final object, the 'Boost'.
At each stage, upwards, there is a greater refinement. What I mean is that there could be hundreds of different kinds of 'Materials', any and all of which can be turned into one of a dozen or so 'Parts', and a few of these 'Parts' go into the 'Boost'.
Does that make sense?
Be Well!
Fireheart
I think having the characters 'learn' recipes would be a good start. As in "I can now make Damage IO Set X: Acc/Dam as many times as I want" but still need to find the parts to make it with.
Possibly have the parts via a drop system, maybe something like SWTOR idea where you can send people off to do stuff for you (Maybe send a sidekick or something?), but that might not fit this game.
Anyway, the higher end recipes should still be harder to find/get or be rewards from tougher missions. Maybe have the Purple IO equivalents be won from the end game Task Forces? With a random one given given out for success but if you do a Master of or beat an additional challenge you can choose which set or type of IO it is?
Just tossing ideas out. At one in the morning...
I like the idea of 'select your reward' from a short list on offer, at the end of significant missions, like in SWTOR and CO. Random rewards certainly support the Market, but they can be frustrating for the players.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Its not just those games... WoW does it as well (and hell, sometimes they are even useful!). To be fair, they are handy, because they generally keep your gear/enhancements at a minimum level relevant to the missions you are running.
Although CoX did give out a reward for completing a story arc, it felt like a useless reward to be honest, because in just a few levels, it was *useless* and gave no actual benefit, and on top of that, if you had a full enhancement tray, you didn't get it anyway.
CO had crafting gears at start and it was not bad. You could have sliders for some stats to use less resources for smaller bonuses on some items and such. I still don't know why they removed crafting and add mods. They could very well implement both systems in by making giving chances to make items with slots with crafting but they chose to remove crafting all together.
I really hope we do have Boost Sets. I spent a LOT of time in Mids working and reworking my builds.
Now Boost Sets at launch? Maybe not. But as long as they know that these will exist and how they can change how the Roles work (ie: Brutes being as tough as Tanks reducing the Tanks playability).
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I loved building my characters' IO sets. I could go beyond the basic powersets. CO's gears is limiting and does nothing to enhance your actual powers.
The plastic tips on the ends of shoelaces are called Aglets; their true purpose is sinister.
I'm surprised this thread is not longer. It seems to me that crafting has to do a lot of things, some of which are downright contradictory which is why it is so tricky in a game.
On the one hand it has to be fun and useful for those who like to craft, but not be unfair to people who don't like crafting and just ignore it. This is a fundamental problem, as you can't satisfy both. I'd say that the great majority of players find a good crafting system to be worthwhile, so I don't believe in crafting being non-useful or even advantageous to please players who don't like it. So the easy way around this is if it is an item that grants some benefit, it should be one that can be sold to the players who don't craft to allow them to get the benefit. Easy right?
The next is that too many crafting systems are sort of a do it to a point, then you don't get anything more out of them. Personally I think WoW's crafting (as an example) was pretty good at this, I often found I could make useful items and pass them between toon's and made for a sort of game within the game of crafting. I would like to see a system that allows me to produce items that are on charges and allow me for more options in how I play. Crafted wands, special devices like a taser, etc along with energy and healing buffs would be nice, all with limited uses.
Gear is tricky, some folks want good or even the best gear out of crafting, while others want it as an elite drop to pose with from a drop. The gear as stand-in-while-you-game-to-get-better style to me makes the most sense especially as you can sell it if needed to other non-crafting players or to make some small cash. Modifications to gear is also cool, but crafters must be able to sell elements to other non-crafters to make them available and get something out of it once they have got their own gear up to snuff.
On top of that, crafters do deserve something for their efforts and a few useful and/or cosmetic items that are bind on pickup round out the system.
Above all it should feel like a system that belongs to the superhero genre, not one that was fork-lifted in from some fantasy game. I know many CoH fans hate CO, but the original system of Arms, Science and Magic covered good ground and fit the genre well even though certain elements of it were not ideal. They also made for some interesting mixes, like a Dr. Doom type of was a mix of both magic and science.
Just remember - CoT is in the spirit of CoH, it is not CoH!
Quote Comicsluvr: "...and focus on WHAT we can craft and HOW EFFECTIVE it is."
I'm just getting started at being involved in these discussions, so please forgive me if these things have been said before elsewhere...
Focussing on 'WHAT' does seem to be the main question here. What kind of crafting system do we want, and just what should be craftable? Once that question has been answered and a decision made, then one can get down to determining 'effectiveness'.
So, rather than try to 'copy' COH, for 'WHAT' here is my collation of things I've seen craftable in RPG games I've played:
1, Blank armour & weapons (attributes are added to it some other way)
2. Pre-defined armour & weapons (when it's made it has pre-defined attributes that can or cannot be adjusted)
3. Character enhancing consumables - usually temporary enhancements from food, potions, scrolls etc
4. Gear enhancing consumables - an example might be created or found jewels/stones (with enhancing attributes) which are added to the gear
5. 'Permanent' character stat enhancements - these are enhancements that are applied to the character and only a 'wipe and remake' of character stats removes them.
6. Costume parts - clothing and decorative items for a character
7. Housing or Base furnishings - Just think interior decorating!
8. Containers - such as packs, bags and chests that increase inventory and bank
I think it would be great if all were possible and also it were possible to combine 'elements' for unique and original! Perhaps something like how the Architect program in CoH introduced the ability to come up with new things.. Just my thoughts.
The Force be with You!
- Shakti-Maia
"...For my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. It’s energy surrounds us and binds us..." - Yoda
*pounce* Ha-hah! Glad to see you here, 'grinin kittin'!
Okay, and rather than arguing about what 'can't' be crafted in City of Titans, I'd like to call out the things from your list that seem like they'd fit into my idea of what could or should be craftable in CoT.
Whatever we call them, inspirations, or potions, or band-aids, temporary buffs and 'bar-fillers' do seem like something we could craft. Sure, LOTS of them dropped in CoH and we could buy more from the vendors, and the Devs introduced 'multi-aspect' ones, near the end, but it would be cool to be able to craft what we need, too. I can't count how many times I Didn't Get the inspiration I 'needed' when fighting.
Costume Parts are an item that we did have to craft in CoH. I had one character that 'needed' the Bat Wings, because the Demon Wings were too huge. So I had to hunt up the recipe on the AH and then gather the materials and craft the thing, so I could apply it to my character. And, to be absolutely frank... it was totally worth it! Those things were super-cute. I could definitely see SOME costume pieces... or maybe all of them, unlockable through crafting.
Base Items could definitely be craftable, at least the unlocking 'template' which could then be endlessly replicated.
'Service' items, whether they be a larger inventory or bank, or a name-change, or... whatever. I could see them being craftable, or the Devs might want to keep some of them as 'cash-shop' items.
'Temporary Powers' could be an outlet for crafting. Grenades, Skateboards... other stuff, gadgets and crafts and Art? All sorts of stuff.
And I definitely like the idea of having some items be a 'discovery' due to experimenting with parts and materials.
... [b]But[/b] what about the 'how'? Where do recipes come from? Do we use 'Recipes'? I can see basic materials collected from enemies, or purchased from vendors, or traded with contacts. In a 'modern' super-heroic game, I can't really envision digging up iron ore, or roots & berries, or chopping down trees for wood... No farming resource-nodes for 'stuff'. So, where does this 'stuff' come from?
Be Well!
Fireheart
Hmm.. Perhaps we do need to consider what seems appropriate for Super Heroes...
Or things may just not quite mesh... I can just see everyone standing around in their Spandex waiting and then someone says...
"We can get going once SuperDude is done picking flowers!"
Do really like the temporary power crafting idea Fireheart! That would be so totally original to the new game I think.. :)
The Force be with You!
- Shakti-Maia
"...For my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. It’s energy surrounds us and binds us..." - Yoda
In another thread, I posted:
How would that work?
Be Well!
Fireheart
Something i loved about CoH crafting system was that crafting wasn't mandatory. What i mean is, i never had to spend hours crafting enhancements for my powers so i could make my character stronger. Maybe the mission could have been easier to finish if i had some enhancements but, it wasn't impossible for my weakling to get the job done. Even while i was on a team, i never felt the weakest link. I could still do my share without compromising the team.
I admit, I never been able to understand the math behind any crafting, so for me crafting is hard. While i had friends who understood that way much better than i did, they were ok with my little weaklings and we had tons of fun teaming up. (Unlike that other game i won't mention that if your CR is not enough you get kick out of a team)
Another thing, i am not trying to put anyone down here, we all have our lives. :) The little time i have off i would love to use it to play, to team up, and have tons of fun with my friends (and new friends). One thing i dislike of other games is the amount of time you have to use to craft. I love to play to have fun, relax and enjoy myself, not to feel i am back at work.