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It looks like we can give everyone a list of minimum specs for running City of Titans. Please keep in mind that this is 'for now' until we are able to add more graphics and other system refinements. Currently you will need :
Windows 10 or later required; no Intel integrated graphics like UHD, must have AMD or NVIDIA card or discrete chipset with 4Gb or more of VRAM
At least 16GB of main DRAM.
These stats may change as we continue to test.
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[youtube]33VE_AqN0vg[/youtube]
Just figured I ought to share ... ^_~
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
So all we really need to worry about is maintaining the RATIONALIZED PRETENSE that every CoT character who uses "3D maneuver gear" (or maybe even, oh I don't know, ziplines anchored to the ground as a very makeshift travel power) can routinely survive pulling 45g every few seconds over and over and over again just like that [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stapp]guy on that rocket sled[/url] managed to do ONCE.
Sounds completely plausible to me...
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Actually Lothic, I would argue against that interpretation ... that EVERY City of Titans character can routinely survive pulling 45g almost indefinitely.
Why do I say that?
Well ... because I would assume that such a high performance level would only be possible with a considered investment of Augments and Refinements. In other words, we wouldn't be looking at such a level of performance as being the baseline (minimum) with no investment by the Player ... but rather as a theoretical maximum that could be achieved after a dedicated investment (Slots, Augments, Refinements, you know the drill) to enhance the Swinging Power.
And that's something useful for the City of Titans "physics devs" to know, since it represents a suggested [i]plausible upper limit boundary[/i] of performance that the Swinging Power ought to be capable of producing. That's because that lets them know how to keep it "real enough" to keep things within range of actual human performance and tolerances, so that when you're working with something as understandable as a swingline and/or a zipline you don't start producing motions/speeds/velocities/accelerations that look inherently LETHAL to anyone trying to do them (even if they do have superpowers).
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I really don't think we need go as far as counting actual g-forces when considering how superpowers work in game. I'm quite fine with "whatever looks cool" or "whatever serves the game." Should we worry about our super-strong character sinking into the ground or breaking through a floor if they lift something heavy? Or whether a flying character can breathe at high velocity? Nah. No need for that level or realism in a super-hero game - not unless the same adherence to "reality" is given to all other powers.
Correction:
As PLAYERS we don't need to care ... but Game DESIGNERS (and let's be fair, animators and movie makers) really do need to care and pay attention to these kinds of details.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
This calculation assumes that the character maintains a (relative tot he body) forward direction of movement though, which we can see even from just the clips presented as part of the video isn't always the case.
Could a character using one of these rigs survive? Yes, possibly. If they carefully maintain a very limited position and direction of movement. But any deviation from that form and they would die, so...
And these points have been at the core of my criticism of the entire swingline/zipline travel power concept from the beginning.
One more time (just so everyone clearly understands me) it's a completely reasonable thing to say, "Well this is a superhero based game so my characters should be able to do whatever I want them to do". Yes the "It's a superhero game" excuse can easily explain away all the physics-defying ramifications of the speed or strength required to make using "3D maneuver gear" work as a universal travel power in CoT.
But here's the problem: What if I want my character to be superpowerless? In terms of the old CoH origin system let's say I want a "Natural" character. This would be a character (like for instance Batman) who has no built-in superpowers or super-human strength of any kind. Now let's say I want this non-superpowered character to use a zipline-based travel power as envisioned by those who MUST accept that the only way this travel power works without killing its user almost instantly is to impose super-human qualities onto the character. How can you possibly resolve the disconnect here?
We either need to acknowledge that such a zipline travel power CANNOT be used by classically "Natural" characters or we must be willing to accept compromises to the zipline-based travel power to account for the fact that not everyone who'd want to use this as an option could actually make it work as conceived.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Or, you know, suspend reality a bit.
No human could reliably and consistantly do what Batman does physically the way he is portrayed in comics.
Iron Man as portrayed would be dead the first time he flew and fell, turned at high speed, or was struck hard.
To place expectations that real world physics need apply in order to be a "natural human" or that the game apply real human limits to the avatar model, you would quickly find the game not so fun.
To me, it is much less a question of "can a humann do that in the real world?" and more along the lines of "is it plausible within the game world?"
In this case, the desire to play a human super hero - you can't forget about the super part. They can and should be able to do things rather exrraordinary. The application here is that the human super hero is using some type of gear or technology for something like a method of travel and their extraordinary skill and teaining allows them to perform such feats a typical citizen does not.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
If it's in line with the overall setting, sure. But this is a game where we can fly around and blast things with laser beam eyes and perform so many other physics-defying feats - it's suffused with the fantastic on so many other levels - to be so concerned about "reality" in this one very tiny corner just doesn't make sense. It's silly. A staunch adherence to "real world physics" is really not necessary in this game.
Or the devs should just make the Swinging/Zipline power, first and foremost, fun to play with and fit appropriately in the schema they have set up for how they want travel powers to work for ALL players/characters, and it is up to YOURSELF to decide how this interacts with your one character concept. Remember, that power has to serve a variety of character concepts - not just yours. "The good of the many outweighs the good of the few..or the one" and all that. /Spock
The City of Heroes cone-zoned incarnate power that swung a foot at everyone in range almost simultaneously would, realistically, cause some serious pins and needles. Thankfully there's always hospital teleporters to keep things real.
[size=14]"The illusion which exalts us is dearer to us than ten thousand truths." - Pushkin[/size]
[size=14] "One piece of flair is all I need." - Sister Silicon[/size]
Or, you know, you could be a little less pedantic about this. Allowing for silliness just for its own sake is not a virtue.
But at least the things these guys CAN do only go as far as their tech allows for. Allowing a "normal" nonpowered character to use a zip line repeatedly shot out into the ground to pull the character forward when there are no other elevated anchor points is just so completely implausible it'd probably even make the average three-year old say WTF!
You make the implication that you'd prefer to let travel powers "get away" with silly nonsense because that would make them "more fun" to play. I would actually argue that if you let something like a zipline be able to pull people across open flat ground without reasonably explaining how that could actually work it would be incredibly annoying to the people who generally like things to "make sense". Just because this is a superhero game doesn't mean that, on average, most things don't still need to be based on hard science. Otherwise you're just offering us a silly fantasy world where literally -anything- nonsensical could happen. CoT should not be Alice in Wonderland.
Here's the trap with that: It's perfectly fine to use the "It's a superhero game" excuse in specific cases to explain all sorts wild and wonderful things your player characters can do. But when you start needing that excuse to rationalize how EVERYONE who uses a specific gadget (like a zipline) is super-human strong enough to prevent the real world physics involved from killing them instantly that's when you've gone overboard. If EVERYONE is special then no one is.
Simply put if you guys implement the zipline travel power in such a way that no "normal" human could survive using it (or could make it work in the first place) then you've just eliminated one more travel power that a "normal" non-powered character could rationally use.
What if I desire to play a "normal" character (like Batman or Ironman) who have no innate "superness" at all? What you're offering is a game where I'd be forced to assume that every character I play had to be "super-human" in some measurable way. The problem is you're talking about "some type of gear or technology" that by its very nature ALSO requires it's user to have some kind of built-in super strength/speed. At that point it has nothing to do with "extraordinary skill and training" but what rationalization I have to come up with for my guy being able to hop 30 feet into the air or be able to continuously survive pulling 45g every several seconds.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
For me, a game based super heroes in a city is a modern day fantasy. Revel in the fantastic.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Actually in this one specific instance it is VERY necessary to adhere to "real world physics" and I'll tell you why.
As I myself have pointed out countless times now it's completely fine to use the "It's a superhero game" excuse to "explain" things like flying and laser beam eyes and most any other nonsense you could dream up. But in this one case we're talking about a zipline device that's ostensibly based on [b]real world technology[/b]. It's just like having a gun in this superhero world: If you wanted to I suppose you could claim it's a "magic" gun made of bamboo that shoots bullets made of gummi bears that start dancing around like teletubbies. That's perfectly fine because, again, it's a superhero world. But on average most guns are NOT going to be made of bamboo or shoot gummi bears - they're going to be made of metal and shoot very conventional bullets made of lead.
So unless you want to have to say that every zipline device in the game is ACTUALLY a magic device designed specific to keep their users from suffering the bone crushing g-forces we are going to have to assume as the default that they are just normal devices based on REAL WORLD PHYSICS. Normal ziplines based on REAL WORLD PHYSICS cannot be used to traverse open flat ground, period.
I'm arguing the VERY FACT that there are a variety of character concepts when it comes to how this zipline thing should work. Being able to use this device the precise way Tannim would have us use it could ONLY be accomplished by a character with super-human strength. By it's very nature it is PRECLUDING people without superpowers from using it because it makes NO FREAKING SENSE in that scenario. So as long as we're dealing with non-magical zipline devices being the norm no "normal" non-powered character could ever use it. By allowing the "fantasy" to happen as Tannim puts it you're actually LIMITING the overall viability of the travel power.
The zipline device is a real world device being used in a superhero world. Just because they exist in a superhero world does not mean they all automatically have supernatural capabilities. Not everything is "super" in a superhero game.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I'll do that where it applies. I'll also revel in hard science where it applies as well. One will never preclude the other.
If you want the ENTIRE GAME to be "fantastic" then I think you've missed something somewhere.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
And still - none of this applies because this game is NOT a real world simulator - it's a super hero video game. Real world physics takes a back seat to comic book physics and gameplay.
"No normal non-powered character could ever use it"? That's kind of ambitious isn't it - speaking for the entirety of the playerbase? It's [I]your[/I] hangup that you are so fixated on this simulationism. Again - this game is not a real world simulator. Super-physics worked for Batman in his games and in the comics, it works for this game based on comic book physics.
I could say the same for you.
Hard science would tell is that we could never have a human being in a metal suit flying Iron Man does, or take a shell from a tank like first film.
Or that any normal human do most of what happened in City of Heroes.
At some point you either have a game designed around reality, or use a modern setting and allow for more tantastic possibilities which throws "hard science"'out the window.
Now, I'm not saying that your character's base jump height need be 30 feet or anything that, but I also won't say a character can't take a Super Jump power and jump double that height and land safely - even if they were a human wearing a pair of their spring-boots.
Which will end up with some physics defying capabaliy if hard science were applied.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Actually - I get the feeling it's YOU who missed the memo of what this game is supposed to be.
If you want a game where science accounts for absolutely nothing then we might as well play City of Alice in Wonderland.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I honestly don't understand Lothic's argument. Because if a player wants to make a natural mere human, and the player herself can't justify how A natural human could use the zip line/swing without killing itself, then don't pick zip line/swing. Period. If realism and lore mean that much to the player, pick a travel power that works for it.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
*sigh* Is "rubber and glue" based comebacks the only defense you can offer here?
Again with your "fantastical" notion that hard science has absolutely no place in a superhero world. *facepalm*
They either co-exist at least to SOME degree or we're just playing Alice in Wonderland with capes.
BTW, did superheroes use their superpowers to build Titan City and populate it with the probably millions of "normal" people who can only rely on real world science to get by?
You are completely denying my ability to play a "natural" character with no built-in superpowers who might have to rely on pure science or tech to do anything in this world. I doubt that's your intention, but that's the net effect if we're forced to accept "magical super-human properties" in all mudane objects like a zipline gun.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
That's exactly what I'm faced with as a "rational" choice for a Natural character. Ziplines, as they'll apparently work in CoT, will not be logically usable by people who don't already have some kind of built-in super-human capability. I simply think it's going to be sad to have to face that de facto limitation. I was actually hoping to be able to play a Batman clone with a zipline...
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Even Batman as depicted in the comic books and even some of the stuff in live action film, and definitely in animated film would not be able to do what he does. No human could.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I had played CoH from the second beta and was in an instance when it shut down (bit of exaggeration for effect). I had made characters that used every power in the game at one point or another with the exception of one (no exaggeration, I even used Jump Kick for many Melee character despite its silly animation).
I hated the Assault Rifle set in CoH. It was one gun that could fire grenades, bean bags, shotgun pellets and fire as a well as conventional bullets. To me it was the quite simply the dumbest thing in CoH. I hated it so much that I hated just seeing others use it. It wasn't exactly rational but if it wasn't too late for CoH to do so, I would have raised as much stink as I could to get them to change it. Even though I understand why it was done the way it was done, nothing could have convinced me to like that set and to this day I still hate it. Whats funny is that when power customization came in and you could change the weapon from the frankengun to something else I was able to see others use it without getting irrationally angry (still couldn't use it though).
I think (she can correct me if I am wrong), Lothic feels the same about the way swing/grapnel is likely to work in CoT.
She has said multiple times if it works the way it is likely to she simply won't use it. Maybe we could discuss ways to make it work for her as well as everyone else instead of trying to convince her that she is wrong for having an opinion and vice versa. I would think that there is some animation or slight mechanic tweak that could be acceptable to everyone.
It's relatively clear you're planning on letting the zipline travel power of CoT do some fairly "fantastical" things because, as we all know, you get to throw ALL basic science out of the window once you play the "It's a superhero game" card.
But as I basically pleaded in one of the many other active zipline threads we have going (there's like 4 or 5 of them now - how in the living hells does this stupid topic warrant 4 or 5 different active threads?) please for the gods' sake don't allow this zipline thing to work over open water. It's going to be dumb enough to see people "waterskiing" across flat ground with this silly travel power - the idea of seeing people using ziplines across open liquid water would be simply mind-numbing.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Thank you for your understanding on this topic. I think I can even reasonably explain why your "Assault Rifle hatred" in CoH is very similar to my issues with the zipline concept in CoT.
Both of these things (the Assault Rifle and the zipline gun) both rely on scientifically based real world-esque technology. Yes both of these things ostensibly exist in a "superhero game" where theoretically anything is possible. But unlike anything else that's purely "superhero based" these two things are much more firmly in the realm of being "hard science" based. As such we expect far more of these items in terms of them behaving within and obeying the limits of real world expectations. The idea that the Assault Rifle could "fire grenades, bean bags, shotgun pellets and fire as a well as conventional bullets" likely offended your expectations of what a "real" Assault Rifle can normally do in the "real" world. Likewise the Zipline gizmo as proposed for CoT simply defies my reasonable scientific expectations, especially where it would be used to fling characters across flat open ground.
It's not enough to say, "Well it's a superhero game so [b]anything[/b] should be possible with [b]any[/b] object". In the case of things like the Assault Rifle and zipline gun which are squarely based far more on hard science than "fantastical flights of fancy" considerations for actual real world physics simply cannot be tossed aside for the sake of expediency. It's not a "fun" thing to see things make no sense where there's every expectation that they should.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Even with the "super hero game card"'or as we refer to it internally; because SCIENCE! (fyi one our devs is a physics professor - we could science up this game to the point of simulated reality - but then we couldn't make most of our powers so...)
But with the Zip-line over water thing -
I agree, in that if I were to design the power, there would be a defiitive range to target an anchor point. Anchor points would have to be defined as an object - so water would not be an anchor point.
The only ways this could possibly work is if:
1. We allow vehicles to be targetable objects. Then, if in range, a player could target a boat and zip-line to it.
2. We allow players to target other player characters and zip-line to them. Then, a player could target a speeding or flykng player, if in range while they move over water, and zip line to them.
Note: I'm not seriously proposing tergeting characters as anchor points.
And any attempt at using a zipnline without an achor point in range simply fails to use the zip-line.
Yes, this would place a limitation on using zip-lines over open terrain - which is at a minimum in the game thus far. The same could br said of wall-crawling.
The ways to avoid that are: a similar 3d-movement like linked in the op, where the zip line from the back end provides actual thrust in forward momentum.
But then, we would have to redesign the entire zip-line mechanics almost entirely.
Or, we would have to remove the anchor point and range requirements and add some form of forward propulsion to the zip-line, like a rocket one person mentioned. Basically making a complicated form of flight.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
That about sums it up.
I like science. I even like hard science. To some degree, if the basis of something is mildly realistic or vaguely grounded in reality, I can even get behind that in books or television/movies. But when I play video games, I'm in it for the entertainment and escapism. I'm with Tannim222 and pretty much suspend my disbelief when playing a superhero/supervillain game in a comic book-inspired world. Additionally, as with many other options, if someone doesn't like something, then don't do it/use it/be around it. That's the freedom of choice that people have in an online universe; unless the thing that bothers you is a fundamental element of the game you're in, then you're probably in the wrong game and you're only bringing it on yourself.
Why I didn't like it isn't important right now.
I would much rather discuss solutions over reasons.
I did a few quick images to give a (very poor) visual reference to what I am suggesting for a grapnel gun animation and mechanics. I am not saying you have to agree to this option, its just a first attempt at trying to find a suitable compromise.
The power would work like this.
You have a gun that can attach a line to pretty much any non-living target. Buildings, trees, lamp posts, cars and even the ground. Because we don't seem to have issues with anything except for the ground I will explain how it 'could' work that you 'may' find acceptable. Just to keep other confusing factors out of the equation for now lets only deal with a standing start to a standing finish. What I mean is the hero is not moving when he shoots the ground in front and stops moving after being pulled forward.
The grapnel can shoot out a maximum of 100 feet (random number for simplicity). When used to elevate or swing that 100 feet is maintained. But when it is used on a flat or semi-flat ground target, the character can only be pulled a maximum of a 15 foot distance. When doing this the hero is first dragged through the air then rotates into a solid landing. At no point does the hero go higher than 3 feet off the ground. Here are 4 images in order to show (amateurishly) how this may look.
[img=700x700]https://i.imgur.com/xiVHPS7.jpg[/img]
[img=700x700]https://i.imgur.com/8OQBwYw.jpg[/img]
[img=700x700]https://i.imgur.com/09KWt7x.jpg[/img]
[img=700x700]https://i.imgur.com/kEK09Tb.jpg[/img]
Is this something you could live with?
I really don't know what to say. The super hero genre features characters who are mutants, ghosts, aliens, demigods, demons, dragons, faeries, talking plants, anthropomorphic animals, sentient viruses, psychics, magicians, arthurian knights, timelost cowboys, spirits of vengeance, sentient planets, warlords of hollow earth kindgoms, embodiments of abstract concepts and beguiling imps from the Nth dimension. There isn't much of a place for hard science there. As a sub-genre of sci-fi? Sure, love it! But supers in general can be just as fantasy as D&D.
What we're really talking about here is suspension of disbelief. Which is actually VERY important for the enjoyment of any fiction.
I come down in the middle of all of this debate. I just need basic biology and physics that I can relate to as a base, and then internal consistency in the fantasy. Follow me...
In the "Superhero world", the basic biology and physics are generally the same as our world, but... there is Magic and SCIENCE! If a human has no powers, use one of these to explain how they do what they do. It's not hard, and it helps maintain internal consistency and so suspension of disbelief--which is again what we're really talking about here.
For example--Iron Man. No normal unpowered human could survive inside his armor. But, let's SCIENCE! this bitch. Tony stark, sly devil that he is, has created an internal inertial dampening field within the armor, or an amazingly complex counter-inertial system that uses (umm, buzzwords...) nanotech and quantum computing to perfectly counter all external pressure. Or whatever floats your boat.
Or your zipline and suit have some kind of doohickey that physically or energetically (depending on how gritty or sciencey you want to be) allows you do do what you do. Or, you studied for 20 years in the Himalayas and forged a mind body link that isn't technically superhuman--because everyone could access it--that allows you to go beyond what people think of as physically possible--mind/body SCIENCE!
I'm just saying that when you have Magic and SCIENCE! at your disposal, you really don't have to make normal humans or physics different within the genre. The basic biology and physics can stay "hard-science" relateable and then take a second to "salt and/or pepper" it with SCIENCE! and Magic, and there ya go.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
And if you make a mistake, then you killed Gwen Stacy.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Set it so that anytime a character looks at the sky, they see a flight of ducks passing overhead. Anytime someone uses a swingline under an open sky there is a sound effect of an annoyed "QUACK!" Problem solved. :-)
[color=#ff0000]Composition Team[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]