Are they? Please tell me.
—
"TRUST ME."
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 09:32
#1
Are whips do-able?
Are whips do-able?
Announcements
Join the ongoing conversation on Discord: https://discord.gg/w6Tpkp2
Please read the current update for instructions on downloading the latest update. Players with Mac versions of the game will not be affected, but you will have a slightly longer wait for your version of the new maps. Please make a copy of your character folder before running the new update, just to make sure you don't lose any of your custom work.
It looks like we can give everyone a list of minimum specs for running City of Titans. Please keep in mind that this is 'for now' until we are able to add more graphics and other system refinements. Currently you will need :
Windows 10 or later required; no Intel integrated graphics like UHD, must have AMD or NVIDIA card or discrete chipset with 4Gb or more of VRAM
At least 16GB of main DRAM.
These stats may change as we continue to test.
To purchase your copy of the City of Titans Launcher, visit our store at https://store.missingworldsmedia.com/ A purchase of $50 or more will give you a link to download the Launcher for Windows or Mac based machines.
The short answer: yes and no.
The longer answer: the engine provides the necessary tech to create a whip-like object that will operate like it should phsyically. It is however, a lot of work on the animation side to create all the animations that will work in moving the whip properly
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Good news, then, thanks. My follow up question is then: how much of a priority is pulling off the animation?
"TRUST ME."
Well at least from a player point of view things like whips and chains (for combat, keep it clean guys) were constantly talked about in the CoH forums for years. I don't know if that'll motivate MWM to work on them ASAP for CoT but I would think that even if they had to be put off until after launch that they would end up being one of the very earliest updates.
Clearly lots of people want them and they are more widely wanted than many other weapon types so it would make sense for them to be near the top of the "to do" list regardless.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
It isn't very high at this moment. The priority is getting basic animations done first. Something like whip animations would be post launch.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Done is better than perfect. I too would love to see whips, but I'd rather see the basic game first.
"THE TITANS ARE COMING! THE TITANS ARE COMING!"
If we can't whip, I hope we can at least nae nae.
Not only are whips doable, but they make those carrying them more so.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Hehe. Like this? ;D
mmm whips... I mean what?
Why yes, it would be nice to see whips down the line. But I totally understand the need to have them post-launch.
One cool thing to remember about developing whip/chain weapons is that if the Devs can manage to get those to work then that should open the door to other kinds of "flexible" weapons like flails, 3-part-staves and/or nunchucks.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Or the other way around? Maybe work from one or two flex points to a fully flexible weapon? Don't know if that's any easier from a Dev standpoint.
Careful with the N-word though, you might get Paladin all riled up :P.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Yeah I'm not totally sure which development pathway would be easier either. I'm just thinking that a weapon that only had to deal with being 100% flexible (i.e. a whip) might be simpler software-wise than a weapon that had to deal with the physics of both solid and flexible parts at the same time. Once the "flexible" aspect was nailed (which seems to be the main sticking point here because we've obviously gotten solid weapons already) it might be easier to slip those flexible parts in amongst preexisting solid pieces.
What?!? I would never poke a sleeping bear like that... That would be completely irresponsible and could only lead to further random forum ranting and what-not. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
The easiest way to do whip, chucks or chain weapons would be to make them a simple block with a texture animation. This goes against the devs desire to make all weapons a separate object though. It would also not have any real hit detection or variety in animation. Basically it would be an old school animated sprite and not a 3d model.
When it comes to whips vs chains in an animated 3d object...whips are more complex than chains.....partially due to the amount of joints needed partially due to the actual motion it has. This is just for simple use of whips and chains ...as in just a simple strike....the second you want more involved actions like snares or trips with either a chain or a whip you increase the complexity of the model by a massive amount because the model now has to interact with other models not connected in very specific way...models which can vary in size and shape... all while maintaining its shape, size and motion parameters. In essence the entire object aside from the 'handle' will need to be set up for hit detection. This says nothing about the specific animations that need to be made for those ensnared or tripped by the whips and chains which are unlikely to be similar to any other animations making shortcuts to completion difficult (a foe hit by a blast can stagger similar to a foe hit by a punch providing either the entire animation or at the very least a portion which can be manipulated).
If all you want to do is make someone agree to the Toby name change then a whip or chain is not difficult to include....but if you want whips and chains to move like whips and chains and have a more diverse capability then sadly that's not a small or even medium chore. It just may be out of the reach (in terms of time and resources not skill) of the devs for some time.
Weapons like nunchucks have an entirely different set of issue to hurdle. The chain part is relatively easy for the most part....a simple 3 -5 link chain is enough to give the chucks realistic motion and would unlikely need complete hit detection. Its the fact that both ends of the weapon are both the handle and the striking point of the weapon which changes as you attack. It now needs to not just interact with just the hands of the attacker model but also many other parts of the attacker as it is passed around the shoulders and waist of the models going from one hand to the other. Then it needs to have the majority of the weapon interact with target models. While the foe animation could probably be shortcuted with other striking animations... the animations of the attacks are VERY involved and would need quite a bit of adjusting based on character model. Whats more they would need to be free enough that height, weight, arm length and muscle differences(the sliders in the character creator) in character models would not cause the animation to do very weird spasms.
Again if all you want is to tuck a chuck under one arm and lash out in a predictable manner then its not overly difficult but if you would like to look like Bruce Lee when using them then its not remotely easy.
Before anyone starts to argue for the animated sprite...keep in mind that animated sprites look terrible in a 3d environment, have no depth and wont be open to any kind of customization. The devs choice to make all weapons a separate object allows for a lot more in the way of options, customization, animation and versatility at the cost of each being more difficult to bring to life...a choice I personally think was the right one.
All in all I doubt whips, chains or nunchucks or going to be included for long while... despite how popular they might be.
Yeah I've never implied that whips/chains would be trivial to do. That's already been heavily debated in other posts on the this forum and the simple fact that CoH never managed to include them after 8.5 years should pretty much convince anyone of their relative difficulty.
I was simply pointing out that if the big "challenge" of getting whips/chains to work in CoT was ever overcome we'd be that much closer to getting other more complex "flexible weapons". Clearly whips/chains (likely permanently anchored to one hand and free to flex semi-randomly across the rest of their length) would be easier to code than nunchucks (where'd you have to worry about the physics of multiple solid/flexible parts and two handed swapping animations).
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Actually the point I was making is that while all of these weapons can start off in the same place in development they quickly split off requiring much different paths to bring them to completion. In order of easiest to hardest I personally think it would go Flail, chain, whip, nunchucks and finally the 3 bar chain.....most of the work on one would not translate to any of the others as each have very different hurdles in programing.
I think you know a bit about animation in games Lothic (hard to remember everyone and what they know about) so I wasn't trying to contradict you. Was just trying to illustrate the massive effort in bringing weapons like these to life. I could go into much greater detail than I have but it would just get pedantic at that point (and it may already have).
As I said, the engine already gives us the tools to set up whips / chains. I've already played around with thier skeletal mesh and movement in various ways. They would actually be easier to set up as a result. Fail would be next, as it changes things how the weapon object moves due to the weighted end. Then nunchucks and three-chain staff. All of these are possible to create within the engine without much difficulty. It is really the animation part, and how the weapons respond to the avatar's animations that is the bottle neck.
Getting the avatar moving correctly in correlation to the weapon type is where things get tricky. We can probably get away with a whip, chain, rope, tentacle all being skins of one another using the same animations letting slide the nit-pickiness a little bit similar to how a baseball bat wouldn't always be used the same way sword would, but we can swap out their skins and use the same animations without too much fuss.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Urge to make a kinky villainess type character... rising....
I would assume that any animation software would have the capability to make and animate whips or chains. Unless you are saying there is a specific automation to them...similar to cloth draping, water (wave) effects and particle flames or explosions? If so...I was completely unaware of any program application that had this built in. That would be an immense time and effort reduction.
Given the shortcuts you're talking about (reskinned animations) that's not nearly as much of a bottleneck as I had made it out to be. At least not for whips/chains/ropes/tentacles. I really was thinking in terms of realistic physics to the animation.
I was under the assumption that there would be more animation choices to go along with the appearance of a power (weapon or not). At the very least for edged vs blunt. I mean most swords won't look to odd with the same animation and a bat or club can easily be the same animation...but a club and a sword....not as much of a fan of this concept.
Judging from this....can I now assume that many blast effects will be reskins only, holds will be pallet changes and such? I do get that time and resources are limited so do not mean to imply that taking these shortcuts is unacceptable....I would just be disappointed if pallet/reskin variations was the only difference between customization choices.
Lastly, if we do see mostly pallet and reskin options...is there a chance that later on we can get more animation changes?
There are couple of systems connected that make this possible. The short of it is that the engine readily recognizes a skeletal mesh for something like that of a chain and operates the physics of movement. It is neat, taking a chain and spinning it around so it coils on it self but doesn't get tangled. Though there are at times a funky collision-like effect that creates an odd "bend" when I was using a chain pretty vigorously, it still worked through.
It isn't that they can't be done separately, there very well may be separate animations available. However there are a couple of things to consider here: choosing a weapon that prohibits animations which can make character creation rather too complex. Another is that development resources are a factor. To give an example of how this can work without too much of a break in 'realistic' animations look no further than the old game's War Mace and Battle Axe. Both of which shared many similar animations (heck they shared some with Broad Sword too).
Rather than us, as devs, telling a player they can't take a say, traditional fencing animation with a club, or a night stick, we can leave as much as possible open to interpretation. Unlike say how using a Shield can actually limit certain animations (unless the Shield becomes a weapon used in the animation...) Or how it wouldn't make sense to use a traditional bow animation when having a rifle equipped.
That would be an erroneous judgement to make. Any power can potentially use any animation. That includes stuff like a buff, debuff, or a hold using attack animations, using a weapon as an emmanation point. A power is a power, its appearance, that is the color of the particles, what type of particles they use, the weapon skin (or not), and the animation are all mostly aesthetic.
Some times the type of particles available to a power may be limited by the power's theme. Sometimes the type of animation may be limited by the weapon skin. Sometimes there will be less restrictions than others depending upon the related factors. Similarly, the color pallet isn't intended to be restricted in any sense other than when / if it may cause a problem (something yet to be determined).
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I'M BACK!
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
That is absolutely amazing....I wonder if its an extention of the older hair physics applications. Regardless....its fantastic to see around. Is it part of unreal or Maya?
Ok, I am even more confused now. Are you saying that not only will we be able to choose weapon skins...but the way they animate as well? If you are then I have no disappointment in reusing animations. At all.
LoL...just saying no woulda been enough.....lol
So basically you are saying that ...unless an animation is thematically counter to the power it will be available. I can karate chop an acid spray at a foe or spit a psychic punch into the robot menace.
My god man....no wonder the CC is going to be a kind of early release and not a demo.
Still...will you be releasing new animations/partical effects and such for existing powers after launch as well as entire new sets?
Welcome back TMP.
The engine handles how the mesh operates and the physics. Any mesh being made itself would be imported from your 3D program of choice. Though there are some meshes you can create within the engine as well.
Eventually it is a possibility. An example could be a melee set can have boxing animations, brawling animations, or any number of possible martial art animations. Or it can have a weapon with any number martial arts style animations, a weapon with a brawlish style of fighting, or other stylistic animations like fencing.
I'm sorry I didn't intend to offend. *blushes*
The possibilities will exist, yes. One of our dev's at one time said he would' the happy until it was possible to spit bullets and shoot swords from eyes..a bit hyperbolic but the crux is, if we wanted to, it would be possible.
I'm not on the business team to discuss how these will be released, but I do know that the possibility exists to release animation suites similar to costume sets, or thematic bundles like say, a martial arts pack that has costume pieces, weapon skins, and animations.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Oh I see what it is....a gravity simulation with a chain setting....basically a drape feature that simulates chain physics. Not as impressive as I originally thought but still very useful.
Naw.....it just seemed overly formal a dismissal of my statement....found it funny is all.
At this stage...'how' is much less important than 'if'(at least to me). I am just happy to see that there are at least intentions to continue to develop the existing powers along with new ones.
As far as animations go....how elaborate is the character model. I mean will we have changing facial expressions and individual finger motion? Not that its needed...just curious.
I am happy.
"TRUST ME."
This was mentioned in a thread related to an update for the costume creator, facial expressions are possible, individal finger motion is not. There arw individual fingers (no mitts), we just aren't foing down the road of indicidual digit articulation. It has been problematic within the scope of our goals for the CC.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
It's always good to keep things like this in perspective. When CoH first launched its characters had: no capes, no wings, no animated tails, no animated hair, no animated clothing, no facial expressions and 'mitts' for hands. By the time CoH ended it still didn't have several of those things. Assuming that CoT will have most (if not all) of these things at launch I think I can live without "articulated fingers" at least for a little while.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Before asking, I bet I already know the answer, but I'ma ax it anyway:
If one of us Lethal Weapon (or higher) Kickstarters asks for a Flail or pair of nunchuku, is that totally off the table? (expected answer "Not ruling it out entirely,because that's too far ahead to be able to tell, but seems unlikely now.")
This whole thread has me wanting to do the Underground Trial again. Desi is dreamy :)
It also has me singing [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIEVqFB4WUo]this song[/url] in my head, which I used to do in that trial a lot, or just when playing my Demon Summoner.
Oh, and I also want one of those red hats. Maybe just for the Linux users?
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Yeah I'd have to guess that any of the Kickstater custom items that asked for things that would require "extraordinarily unique" engineering efforts to create are probably going to have to be compromised on.
Nice try though... ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I will have to ask to get any specifics so don't hold me to this but...
The Lethal Weapon pledge specifies weapon or prop as designed by an artist and nothing about the animations. I would assume then even if the custom weapon is something fairly difficult to implement it may be possible to create it, just not have ideal animations for it. Then again I would assume that there would be, like the Mogul pledge a survey asking for several ideas so it can be determined which of them are more possible to implement.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Musta missed that thread.
I asked about facial expressions more out of curiosity than any real desire....as you already said that the faces are going be more stylized than realistic. I do know that facial expressions are no where as difficult to implement than they used to be even 2 years ago.... the machinima crowd is always looking for a way to make their stuff more interesting and with a robust character creator ....vast clothing options and a variety of emotes it only makes the game more attractive to them (have a couple friends who do a lot of this for fun and profit)
In regards to articulate fingers...I am actually glad that you will have individual fingers but that they are not planned for articulation.....too much work for too little a payoff.
So...no full digit articulation - I'm assuming that means in casual animations, like wind blowing hair. Will we still see things like different hand posses for different powers?
For example, fingers splayed, palm out for a blast (like from Iron Man's repulsors), the tradition Dr. Strange finger positions for casting, or a simple closed fist like many characters use?
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men.
~Roald Dahl
Things will probably be kept simple; fist, open hand palm out, knife hand straight (palm down), knife hand edge (palm in).
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Works for me!
Then again, with individual fingers - I'd be happy with the G.I. Joe Kung Fu grip!
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men.
~Roald Dahl
This leads to another question: middle finger and V-sign emotes - yes or no?
"TRUST ME."
I want to be able to make a "finger pistol" gesture with my hand and say "ZZZAp!" and have a blasty power shoot out of my outstretched pointer finger.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I imagine making emotes for these would be relatively easy. Unfortunately we all know there would be a few idiots who'd run around a grief everyone by getting into people's faces and constantly "flicking them off". Sadly this would probably be one of the few cases where certain emotes would NOT get made just to keep people from annoying each other too much.
This would be a pretty fun animation option for blast powers. I'd probably make a fun-loving character who'd use their powers just like that not because they had to but just to be funny. If they can (and probably will) give us the "open handed" Iron Man style look for powers you know it wouldn't be too hard for them to give us a "finger pistol" style as well.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
They could just put a timer on the emote that limits people to using it once per hour or half-hour only, which should dissuade folks from spamming with it - I seem to recall sugesting this in another thread here about emotes.
The only way to spam with that would then be to synchronize with friends/leaguers/team-mates to all give the finger at the same time, which would be a sight to see and would promote teamwork and coordination, planning and tactical thinking, which I think is healthy. .,I,,
"TRUST ME."
Yeah I guess they could put a timer on these emotes - even like once a minute would probably be enough. Obviously if anyone still wanted to try to grief somebody with that they could always be reported to a GM.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Those signs don't mean the same thing to all cultures.
Be Well!
Fireheart
True enough. But the fact that they're typically regarded as insulting to many of the cultures who'd likely make up the majority of the players of CoT would be enough.
This is just like pointing out that a few Asian and Native American cultures still consider the swastika to be a historical sign of good fortune/luck but the unfortunate fact of that matter is that far too many people now universally associate it only with the national socialists of the third reich. When something is considered "bad" by an overwhelming majority it's usually just safest to assume it would only be used for negative purposes.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Pretty much everyone knows it to be an insulting gesture. The only time I know of when it is not considered one is when it is used to point at something as the first digit is considered rude to point with in some cultures. Same with the back of the hand facing out and first/middle finger extended in a V is know to be an insult the world over. One comes, as was said, from bowmen showing they had all their fingers and the other is from the height of Rome (IIRC) to indicate a part of the male anatomy. These are not new gestures and the meaning has not changed much from the original use (a sign of contempt or insulting gesture). Just because another culture hasn't adopted the gesture it does not mean they are ignorant of it.
Not sure why either of those gestures would be useful in a superhero game other than to show contempt for someone or something to which there are less 'offensive' ways to do so. Head shakes, talk to the hands, arm waves and fist shakes all can convey the same message with the added benefits as being able to be convey other messages AND not offend the moral code enforcers.
I'll play a tiny bit of Devil's Advocate to say that gestures like this could be considered "appropriate" (or at least expected from) various villainous player characters. I might even consider using them myself were I RPing a punkish "politically incorrect" sort of bad guy.
But as you say I also still believe that virtually anyone who would play CoT would consider them to be insulting gestures to everyone regardless and I'm enough of a cynic to realize that even if roleplayers used emote gestures like these "responsibly" there would be too many silly idiots just running around randomly griefing people with them unless they were controlled via timers or the like.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
The point I was making was that their use is singular.....better to focus on multi use emotes and as an added bonus they don't need to worry about griefing or timers and whatever.
Late to the convo, but going back to the finger pistol. I would love to have that option for an attack.
[img=320x240]http://thebrotherhoodofevilgeeks.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/yusuke.jpg[/img]
Speaking of Yu Yu Hakusho, If whips were doable I would really like to see a rose petal whip(as well as a ranged rose projectile like Kurama uses)
[img=320x240]http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/playstationallstarsfanfictionroyale/images/0/00/9567_render_YuYu_Hakusho_Kurama.png/revision/latest?cb=20130329211410[/img]
And one thing that could help the middle finger emote, is if we went with a "child and adult flag" that Lothic was mentioning in another thread. So that you wouldn't be able to use the emote if a child flag was in a close range or something of that sort. To avoid any issue with kids going to their parents saying, what does this mean? lol
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
I'd rather they make it so that child-accounts don't play that animation rather then stop others from using it.
Yeah, that would definitely be good to disable that option for child accounts. Come to think of it, in a different thread they were talking about how you can disable special effects and what not. It would make more sense to make it so if there is a child account, they can't see other characters that do the emote. For example everyone who has the adult flag can see you do it, but to the child account it just looks like you are standing there
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko