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Are melee powers all physical damage?

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Cyclops
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Are melee powers all physical damage?

Am I reading the descriptions wrong? I'm not seeing energy or exotic damage for Melee powers.
If not, why not? I would love to have the Shou Lin Fabulous Flaming Fists of Fury, or the Mental Pugilist.

I kinda like the idea that just because some guy wears metal boxing gloves, you will still have no idea what he is gonna hit you with.

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Yes all launch Melee sets are

Yes all launch Melee sets are physical damage. We wanted to represent a variety of mechanics throughout the game that we could also codify in time. We could have used an energy or exotic Melee set design with other mechanics featured in ranged sets, but then there would be less variety of mechanics.


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Cyclops
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yes all launch Melee sets are physical damage. We wanted to represent a variety of mechanics throughout the game that we could also codify in time. We could have used an energy or exotic Melee set design with other mechanics featured in ranged sets, but then there would be less variety of mechanics.

Thank you!
So we might see more variety in a future release?

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Tannim222 is one of our

Tannim222 is one of our senior game mechanics people. As is felix. Their answers will always be authoritative. I hope an expanded range for Melee is in the future too.

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yes all launch Melee sets are physical damage. We wanted to represent a variety of mechanics throughout the game that we could also codify in time. We could have used an energy or exotic Melee set design with other mechanics featured in ranged sets, but then there would be less variety of mechanics.

Thank you!
So we might see more variety in a future release?

Certainly. The future holds plenty of possibilities. Right now it is all about getting to launch.


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Thanks again.

Thanks again.
Have the dev teams given any thought to an exotic style energy melee set?

I know there won't be a darkness/vampiric melee set at launch, but exotic damage mixed with a health drain and debuffs would be fun!
I would call it vampiric after your ranged set, and let people add darkness aestherics only if players choose it.

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

Thanks again.
Have the dev teams given any thought to an exotic style energy melee set?

I know there won't be a darkness/vampiric melee set at launch, but exotic damage mixed with a health drain and debuffs would be fun!
I would call it vampiric after your ranged set, and let people add darkness aestherics only if players choose it.

I have a lot of concepts put together in various stages. Some with familiar mechanics and others that are very different.


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Though, while you may not get

Though, while you may not get the mechanics you want for the set, should be able to get the set. No energy damage yet, but energy fists of doom, sounds like it.

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This is from this thread.

This is from this thread.

Quote:
notears wrote:

In the future we need melee sets that don't do physical damage, like maybe an atrophic melee set.

This is a very valid point I hope MWM looks into.

It does seem a bit lopsided that every melee power set uses physical type damage. (at least from the 10 powers we have seen here)

I made this table from the 2 powers we get to see in every power set, which is a small sample size, but it is all we have to go on yet:

Power Set Subset Physical Energy Exotic
Protection Invulnerability O O O
Solid Form O O
Super Agility - - -
Grit O O O
Atrophic Aura X
Melee Tactical Combat X
Fighting Prowess
Kinetic Melee X
Super Strength
Massive Melee X
Ranged Force Blast X
Lethality X
Vampiric Blast X
Atrophic Blast X
Psychic Blast X
Support Preservation O O
Barrier Generation XO
Strategy - - -
Devices
Vampiric Emanation
Control Gravity Control X
Psychic Control X
Power Control X
Illusions X
Force Control X
- = from the description, it appears to not deal or provide resistance to damage of any type
X = does damage of this type
O = Protects against damage of this type
blank = no information available

I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Well, we could also point out

Well, we could also point out my more lengthy explanation from that very same thread.

To expand upon that:

Physical is intended to be the “common” damage type in the game.
Energy is “uncommon” .
Exotic is “rare”.

This goes both ways for offense and protection.
That doesn’t mean every resistance based set will always favor physical over the other damage types either. And it doesn’t always mean opponents will always favor physical. There maybe powers and enemies with those powers which favor energy or exotic over other damage types.


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Can specific skills within a

Can specific skills within a power set do a different type of damage? Or is everything in that set the same damage type?

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Ravrohan wrote:
Ravrohan wrote:

Can specific skills within a power set do a different type of damage? Or is everything in that set the same damage type?

It depends on what type of power being designed. Typically when designing a set we start after getting choosing a basic and then focused play style, we choose a mechanical theme and that will also have a main damage type.

But there may be exceptions or variances. For example a protection power may have a physical damage type as its main type, but it can have a power that doesn’t offer any physical types protections in it, or have a power with all 3 types in it.

An offense set is much the same way. Though generally will offer only one typenfor all its powers. The variance comes with certain effects. For example, most knock effects in the game will be types physical whilemrhe damage portion maybe another type. Even this isn’t a hard rule, but a general rule.


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Ravrohan wrote:
Ravrohan wrote:

Can specific skills within a power set do a different type of damage? Or is everything in that set the same damage type?

Pretty sure they have said a firm no to keeping sets within a single damage type, going so far as leaving it open (no plans afaik) for single powers to be able to utilize two or even all three damage types.

edit: sneaky crowbar getting an answer in while I'm typing mine.

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Not to get hung up on

Not to get hung up on vocabulary again, but maybe physical could be swapped to say 'corporeal'. Fire isn't physical, but affects the corporeal.

I don't want to get off topic though. Aesthetic decoupling means we can't have the 8 kinds of damage CoH had. I always liked the complexity of it and how a lot of ice attacks were mainly physical damage with some cold thrown in. I'm glad to hear the types are meant to basically mean common, uncommon and rare. I assume for balance this means something along the lines of, if you deal exotic damage, little will resist you, but the things that do resist will do so very well.

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Now, of course, you can add

Now, of course, you can add augments (or is it refinements) to change the damage type, so it's a bit moot.

This might be a balance thing to keep melee from being OP, thought CO had the opposite problem as I learned 15s into the duel feature :p

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Now, of course, you can add augments (or is it refinements) to change the damage type, so it's a bit moot.

This might be a balance thing to keep melee from being OP, thought CO had the opposite problem as I learned 15s into the duel feature :p

It is neither. It is called a Power Set Booster. And changing damage types is possible but not a guarantee for launch.


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Awww, that's dissapointing,

Awww, that's dissapointing, but understandable given the balancing issues.

Overall a good call: CoH made a mistake with I thu=ink 10 damage types. 3 might be pushing it on the simple side, but way better than 10 :p

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When we were in preproduction

When we were in preproduction we actually went through the iterations of no damage types and up to 21 damage types. We eventually settled on 3.

This largely had to do with aesthetic decoupling and how we changed how it affected the rest of power design. 3 damage types allows us variety in damage and protection from it, is manageable for tracking and adjusting metrics, and it has a unique effect on design where we can match up effects with a thematic damage type and allows us to focus more on GM what a power or entire set is supposed to do rather than what damage type it does. Or to put it another way, the damage type sets the stage and the mechanics dress it up.


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I never thought 8 types of

I never thought 8 types of damage was to many.

Blunt (smashing, fall damage, concussive)
Lethal (blades and bullets)
Fire
Cold
Psychic
Energy
Negative (Darkness type)
Poison

One of the things to do though, is limit Psychic damage to psychic damage. No reason a telekinetic blast, should be psychic damage. It's not effecting a target's mind.

Covers pretty much everything and one can decide on the defenses a defense set would offer to those things.

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I think poison and psychic

I think poison and psychic fit nicely into the 'exotic' type.

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Irving is wrong about types

Irving is wrong about types damage if the game supports it. It wasn’t that CoH typed damage was bad (through it did have problems balance-wise).

Aesthetic decoupling makes the necessity of a wide range of damage types rather superfluous.


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See now, when I first started

See now, when I first started reading about this project, I figured the damage 'types' would be tied to effects. Fire=DoT, Cold=Slow, Blunt/Energy=knockdown/back/up, Sharp=light DoT+light debuff, Dark=drain, etc. So you'd pick a damage type based on what you wanted the character to do, then you could reskin it to however you wanted. I recall some comment about fire/burn being thematically reskinned as some sort of sand attack, or cold as some sort of mud/tar attack, whatever.

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DariusWolfe wrote:
DariusWolfe wrote:

See now, when I first started reading about this project, I figured the damage 'types' would be tied to effects. Fire=DoT, Cold=Slow, Blunt/Energy=knockdown/back/up, Sharp=light DoT+light debuff, Dark=drain, etc. So you'd pick a damage type based on what you wanted the character to do, then you could reskin it to however you wanted. I recall some comment about fire/burn being thematically reskinned as some sort of sand attack, or cold as some sort of mud/tar attack, whatever.

Originally it was like this:

The dev designed a theme, example Burning
Burning was assigned a mechanic, example DoT.

Aesthetics would be limited the things assigned to fall under the theme. Butrning would be all esthetics that can “burn” such as fire, stinging wind, acid, etc.

However as we were working on the aesthetic decoupling system the back end work to create a pipe line that assigned “proper” aesthetics to a theme which then dictated what effect could be assigned meant that aesthetics were still driving how powers were designed and also required more work to make the beck end functional over the long term.

Since aesthetics were meant to not limit power designed and since there was so much back end wrote required, the decisive was made to Simplify the aesthetic system and open up all possible aesthetics to every set.

Power design was than freed up to concentrate on the mechanics of the set without limiting certain aesthetics tonfunctionality.

Now you can take “super strength” and have your heavy-handed fists swing away to give yourself a sword surrounded in pink flames.


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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I never thought 8 types of damage was to many.

Blunt (smashing, fall damage, concussive)
Lethal (blades and bullets)
Fire
Cold
Psychic
Energy
Negative (Darkness type)
Poison

One of the things to do though, is limit Psychic damage to psychic damage. No reason a telekinetic blast, should be psychic damage. It's not effecting a target's mind.

Covers pretty much everything and one can decide on the defenses a defense set would offer to those things.

Given that damage types were frequently (almost always) paired, CoX "essentially" only had 4 damage types anyhow. (Smashing/Lethal, Fire/Cold, Energy/Negative and Psionic. I would argue that there was so little protection against Toxic damage as to not even be a factor. For most players it may as well have been entirely untyped and unresistible.)

So CoX's system was more simplified than the number of damage types would imply out of context.

My first MMO had 10 damage types;
Blunt, Slashing, Thrusting - assigned to their corresponding melee weapon types (Mace/Hammer/Shield, Swords, and Daggers/Spears)
Heat, Cold, Energy - assigned to elemental spells and abilities (Fire, Ice, Lightning)
Body, Matter, Spirit - assigned to non-elemental magics (Physical Force magics, Acid/decay type magics, Holy/Divine/Soul type magics)
and Essence, which was only ever available as a limited, end game earnable special skill type abilities and was completely undefendable other than by other end game earnable powers.

It was incredibly uncommon for any of those types to be linked or paired together, so you had to specifically build out each individual resistance. This lead to a lot of meta-gaming where the different factions would often built out resistance against the opposing side's primary damage types, then ignore the less common resist (Matter being the biggest loser there).

This of course caused a HUGE problem when a new caster class was added and virtually their entire spell suite was Matter based, and they absolutely wrecked people. This class of course ended up getting nerfed into the ground in short order.

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I have to say this: part of

I have to say this: part of the distinctive and wonderful part of the old game was the difference between the given sets in a primary or secondary, and I am more than a little bit concerned about the sheer number of animations required to make aesthetic decoupling a success in this regard...

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Mons wrote:
Mons wrote:

I have to say this: part of the distinctive and wonderful part of the old game was the difference between the given sets in a primary or secondary, and I am more than a little bit concerned about the sheer number of animations required to make aesthetic decoupling a success in this regard...

The difference isn't quite as big you may remember. Take all the blaster power sets for example, here's a whole tone of similarities in all of them. 90% (if not all) start with a moderate and a high damage attack, with minor effects based on the set. You then either got a targeted aoe, or a cone attack. Most sets had 'aim', many sets had 'a snipe', many sets had 'the nuke'. These mostly all shared animations. Fire Blast, Lightning Bolt, Dark Blast, Ice Blast and Power Blast were all the same 'throw a ball of damage attack' animation, which for sets were used for multiple powers.

What aesthetic decoupling allows them to do, is start combining sets into core mechanics. The 'dot' sets Vampiric (minor dot theme) and Atrophic (major dot theme) to fit what you want. Maybe you want frost that does damage over time due to the sheer cold, it's at the very least a throwing an ice particle. Even 4 animations (throw, eye blast, chest thrust, emit from hand) for launch would fit the bill that was promised. The rest is particle effects, and seeing as an entire new power set doesn't need to be created for a new theme, new themes can just get added. The devs don't have to ask 'what does wind blast do', because you, the player will choose if wind causes dots from friction burn, knockbacks, anything. Wind could even be CoT's Psychic blast, treat Synaptic Feedback as depriving them of oxygen.

Please forgive me if you meant something else.

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And yeah, given the breadth

And yeah, given the breadth of aesthetics available, you kinda have to narrow it down to vague damage types. I can have my burning be ice, then burning probably shouldn't be its own type.

And Oath is right, they were generally paired so much that the types were redundant: how can you even write "negative energy" without realizing you're treating it like energy :p

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Mons wrote:
Mons wrote:

I am more than a little bit concerned about the sheer number of animations required to make aesthetic decoupling a success in this regard...

This is probably the update(s) I am most looking forward to; animations. It's probably pretty far away but I'm anxious to see the breadth of animations they'll have at release.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

And yeah, given the breadth of aesthetics available, you kinda have to narrow it down to vague damage types. I can have my burning be ice, then burning probably shouldn't be its own type.

And Oath is right, they were generally paired so much that the types were redundant: how can you even write "negative energy" without realizing you're treating it like energy :p

Cause I could just as easily call it Darkness or Supernatural or Magic damage :p

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Warhammer Online went with

Warhammer Online went with three damage types - Physical, Corporeal and Spirit if I remember correctly. Physical being pretty much all kinetic damage, corporeal being non-kinetic but with a physical agent (so fire and poison were both corporeal) and spirit being 'pure magical' (so psychic and vampiric essence drain would fall in here). It worked out very well because the design was good at giving most classes significant strengths and weaknesses, which you could tweak a little bit through build and talent slotting.

One side effect of the system was some pvp one on one matchups were very one sided, as most classes did primarily one damage type with maybe a bit of another, and were medium or strongly resistant to two damage types. If you matched against someone with resistances that matched both your damage types, it was pretty much a hiding to nothing. This was probably a design intent, or at least an acceptable side effect of design, as one or one duelling was never really meant to be a significant feature, it was all about team vs. team or mass pvp. In those scenarios the system worked great as it encouraged intelligent target selection.

As far as CoT goes, three damage types strikes me as a very sweet spot. There's huge potential to have varying weightings between the sets, which can then be tweaked a bit with your tertiaries and slotting. I'm expecting to see defence sets that relies on typed resistances to come in maybe strong/ok/ok and strong/strong/weak flavours, which you can further refine to strong/strong/ok or outstanding/outstanding/weak by throwing resources into the appropriate tertiary skills. Similarly for damage you can pick to go down a build where your damage is scary but you have a few kryptonite enemies that resist you horribly, or vary your damage options more and be a generalist with a lower overall output in ideal conditions.

Having more than three damage types starts making balancing the various sets exponentially harder, especially because damage types don't exist in a vacuum. The proportion of enemies that use and resist a damage type obviously has a bearing on how important dealing or resisting that type is to characters. It's very easy to end up with a type that's so rare it almost doesn't matter, until it shows up in content that's popular and suddenly you're into 'you need an x tank for trial y' territory, which seems very much against the spirit of the game. Having an overall rule of 'physical is common, energy is uncommon, exotic is rare' gives creature and mission designers a clear guideline, and the players know what to expect. Equally, the relative value of dealing and resisting each type should be fairly constant, making balancing sets a lot easier.

Going for three types strikes me as a really sound design decision, so I for one am very happy on this score. I appreciate 'it resists fire, so it also resists cold....and lasers' is an unfortunate side effect of the choice, but actually I think we gain enough on the gameplay front for this to be a worthwhile sacrifice.

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Mons wrote:
Mons wrote:

I have to say this: part of the distinctive and wonderful part of the old game was the difference between the given sets in a primary or secondary, and I am more than a little bit concerned about the sheer number of animations required to make aesthetic decoupling a success in this regard...

I read this differently when I initially pressed quote, but now that I'm rereading your post, I'm a little confused and had to reword my response.

Are you talking about a given set as a primary and secondary (Storm Summoning for Defender and Storm Summoning for Controller) or the given sets among a subset of a particular AT (so Storm Summoning, Force Field, Empathy, etc for Defender)? In which case, you're concerned with how stringent and formulaic a set has to be so that you can copy lots of animations for lots of sets?

I can certainly agree with you there but not sure which above context you mean. I think one certainly argues the case better than the other.

One thing I feel the Aesthetic Decoupling goal might swing and miss at is what made a lot of the aspects of CoH's system work with your creativity is that you are forced to work within a strict box. Of course, some imagined characters couldn't be realized in CoX, but you might make something close or deviate from the original idea to make something better...or you might just focus on separating certain aspects of the character from their in-game incarnation (such as my Stalker whose Hide was that he can transform into a house cat and he was really good at breaking locks of all kinds, technological to magical). Ultimately, people started to adapt to the system (creatively thinking of characters that could be replicated if only you could have a Control/melee AT or an Armor/Ranged AT) and so smaller-scale changes (like adding in color customization) opened more concepts. If the Pandora's Box is to have any animation for any effect, and you open it....

McJigg wrote:

The difference isn't quite as big you may remember. Take all the blaster power sets for example, here's a whole tone of similarities in all of them. 90% (if not all) start with a moderate and a high damage attack, with minor effects based on the set. You then either got a targeted aoe, or a cone attack. Most sets had 'aim', many sets had 'a snipe', many sets had 'the nuke'. These mostly all shared animations. Fire Blast, Lightning Bolt, Dark Blast, Ice Blast and Power Blast were all the same 'throw a ball of damage attack' animation, which for sets were used for multiple powers.

What aesthetic decoupling allows them to do, is start combining sets into core mechanics. The 'dot' sets Vampiric (minor dot theme) and Atrophic (major dot theme) to fit what you want. Maybe you want frost that does damage over time due to the sheer cold, it's at the very least a throwing an ice particle. Even 4 animations (throw, eye blast, chest thrust, emit from hand) for launch would fit the bill that was promised. The rest is particle effects, and seeing as an entire new power set doesn't need to be created for a new theme, new themes can just get added. The devs don't have to ask 'what does wind blast do', because you, the player will choose if wind causes dots from friction burn, knockbacks, anything. Wind could even be CoT's Psychic blast, treat Synaptic Feedback as depriving them of oxygen.

Please forgive me if you meant something else.

To summarize what you're saying: in the context of CoX, the devs would release new sets every now and then. In the context of CoT, the devs will release animation themed packs (Sword Pak: support your team with floating swords, throw/shoot swords at people and add more swordfighting animation melee styles!) and you'd just customize your characters' powers from there?

Granted, I've read past posts on the subject, it's just sometimes various posts start to mix up messages. I just feel like there should be some sort of structure with regards to how these things are disseminated. One aspect I'm still intrigued about is the breadth of mechanics they plan to introduce. In the context of CoX, Titan Weapons was a fun set with benefits and drawbacks and made playing a TW character feel much different from other melee due to not only animations but also mechanics and balance. It's a culmination of aesthetic design, mechanic design and balance design where only one of those three branches has +some+ wiggle room.

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On topic,

On topic,

I wouldn't be too tied to damage types, tbh. The main thing it affected was how effective your powers were on certain enemy groups. The important aspect when creating powers, is the secondary effects and mechanics. So long as it looks like fire, I can fill in the gaps for why this fire doesn't burn but rather slows the target or blinds. Would actually be a fun idea creating a concept for "heavy fire" that knocks people around/crushes them.

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Darkness was one of the

Darkness was one of the originals sets to come out at COH launch. I can wait for an updated issue to get it just fine.
I was hoping to recreate Black Falcon when this game goes live...

I don't think it will be too difficult to balance an energy melee set...maybe issue 2 or 3?
I will need to wait for my Commanders, I can wait for Falcon too.

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

Darkness was one of the originals sets to come out at COH launch. I can wait for an updated issue to get it just fine.
I was hoping to recreate Black Falcon when this game goes live...

I don't think it will be too difficult to balance an energy melee set...maybe issue 2 or 3?
I will need to wait for my Commanders, I can wait for Falcon too.

Does the label of 'physical damage' really ruin it for you? Keep in mind, not only could 'Tactical Combat' be dark themed, but respecs will allow you change both your secondary power set and even specialization all together. Tammin's even mentioned that in CoT's context of damage that Physical, Energy and Exotic translate to Common, Uncommon and Rare as opposed to City of Heroes and their myriad of damage types and resists.

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McJigg wrote:
McJigg wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

Darkness was one of the originals sets to come out at COH launch. I can wait for an updated issue to get it just fine.
I was hoping to recreate Black Falcon when this game goes live...

I don't think it will be too difficult to balance an energy melee set...maybe issue 2 or 3?
I will need to wait for my Commanders, I can wait for Falcon too.

Does the label of 'physical damage' really ruin it for you? Keep in mind, not only could 'Tactical Combat' be dark themed, but respecs will allow you change both your secondary power set and even specialization all together. Tammin's even mentioned that in CoT's context of damage that Physical, Energy and Exotic translate to Common, Uncommon and Rare as opposed to City of Heroes and their myriad of damage types and resists.

Really, given the conceptual flexibility of Aesthetic Decoupling, it seems like it would make more sense for CoT to just label the three damage types as "Common", Uncommon" and "Rare", and leave it at that. Or, if you don't want to be stuck using those same stock labels, something like "Standard", "Unusual", and "Exotic" would communicate the distinction between the tiers without pigeon-holing them.

Either way, I think it would be good to keep the terms as generic as possible. That way, the damage type labels wouldn't be at risk of running afoul of character design concepts, as at least "Physical" and "Energy" seem very likely to do.

It would make the distinctions between the three types more transparent to players, and it would also be a more accurate descriptor in terms of how damage types actually function in the game engine.

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Geveo wrote:
Geveo wrote:
McJigg wrote:

Tammin's even mentioned that in CoT's context of damage that Physical, Energy and Exotic translate to Common, Uncommon and Rare as opposed to City of Heroes and their myriad of damage types and resists.

Really, given the conceptual flexibility of Aesthetic Decoupling, it seems like it would make more sense for CoT to just label the three damage types as "Common", Uncommon" and "Rare", and leave it at that. Or, if you don't want to be stuck using those same stock labels, something like "Standard", "Unusual", and "Exotic" would communicate the distinction between the tiers without pigeon-holing them.

Either way, I think it would be good to keep the terms as generic as possible. That way, the damage type labels wouldn't be at risk of running afoul of character design concepts, as at least "Physical" and "Energy" seem very likely to do.

It would make the distinctions between the three types more transparent to players, and it would also be a more accurate descriptor in terms of how damage types actually function in the game engine.

You bring up an excellent point. Perhaps the labels "physical," "energy" and "exotic" are holdovers from a previous time when they had more meaning. Now it seems they have outlived their usefulness and actually cause more confusion as players try to reconcile their own character concepts with those labels. Type I, Type II, and Type III seem like they would work just fine.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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If that's the case, why even
Geveo wrote:
McJigg wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

Darkness was one of the originals sets to come out at COH launch. I can wait for an updated issue to get it just fine.
I was hoping to recreate Black Falcon when this game goes live...

I don't think it will be too difficult to balance an energy melee set...maybe issue 2 or 3?
I will need to wait for my Commanders, I can wait for Falcon too.

Does the label of 'physical damage' really ruin it for you? Keep in mind, not only could 'Tactical Combat' be dark themed, but respecs will allow you change both your secondary power set and even specialization all together. Tammin's even mentioned that in CoT's context of damage that Physical, Energy and Exotic translate to Common, Uncommon and Rare as opposed to City of Heroes and their myriad of damage types and resists.

Really, given the conceptual flexibility of Aesthetic Decoupling, it seems like it would make more sense for CoT to just label the three damage types as "Common", Uncommon" and "Rare", and leave it at that. Or, if you don't want to be stuck using those same stock labels, something like "Standard", "Unusual", and "Exotic" would communicate the distinction between the tiers without pigeon-holing them.

Either way, I think it would be good to keep the terms as generic as possible. That way, the damage type labels wouldn't be at risk of running afoul of character design concepts, as at least "Physical" and "Energy" seem very likely to do.

It would make the distinctions between the three types more transparent to players, and it would also be a more accurate descriptor in terms of how damage types actually function in the game engine.

If that's the case, why even have Standard, Unusual and Exotic types at all? Why not just plain "Damage"?

Creating those labels still begs the question why a damage type is standard, unusual or exotic.

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Leo_G wrote:
Leo_G wrote:
Geveo wrote:
McJigg wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

Darkness was one of the originals sets to come out at COH launch. I can wait for an updated issue to get it just fine.
I was hoping to recreate Black Falcon when this game goes live...

I don't think it will be too difficult to balance an energy melee set...maybe issue 2 or 3?
I will need to wait for my Commanders, I can wait for Falcon too.

Does the label of 'physical damage' really ruin it for you? Keep in mind, not only could 'Tactical Combat' be dark themed, but respecs will allow you change both your secondary power set and even specialization all together. Tammin's even mentioned that in CoT's context of damage that Physical, Energy and Exotic translate to Common, Uncommon and Rare as opposed to City of Heroes and their myriad of damage types and resists.

Really, given the conceptual flexibility of Aesthetic Decoupling, it seems like it would make more sense for CoT to just label the three damage types as "Common", Uncommon" and "Rare", and leave it at that. Or, if you don't want to be stuck using those same stock labels, something like "Standard", "Unusual", and "Exotic" would communicate the distinction between the tiers without pigeon-holing them.

Either way, I think it would be good to keep the terms as generic as possible. That way, the damage type labels wouldn't be at risk of running afoul of character design concepts, as at least "Physical" and "Energy" seem very likely to do.

It would make the distinctions between the three types more transparent to players, and it would also be a more accurate descriptor in terms of how damage types actually function in the game engine.

If that's the case, why even have Standard, Unusual and Exotic types at all? Why not just plain "Damage"?

Creating those labels still begs the question why a damage type is standard, unusual or exotic.

We aren’t changing labels for damage types. Type isn’t just health damge but every effect in the game has a Type assigned to it. The labels mechanically provide differentiation for combat. It also helps for some of our devs not familiar with game mechanics to adopt the system.

The labels aren’t hold overs but intentionally assigned. The result of pairing down from 21 damage types we initially started wit,


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

The labels aren’t hold overs but intentionally assigned. The result of pairing down from 21 damage types we initially started wit,

You say that, but they are. They may be of use to the devs behind the scenes with their existing names, but the outward-facing label that the players see means less than nothing. What is physical if it can be made to look like a mental attack? That is energy if it can be made to look like a sword slash?

Holdovers or not, intentional or not; they are still meaningless in an aesthetically decoupled game. As such they seem to be causing more harm than good. Just look at this thread for the evidence of that.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

The labels aren’t hold overs but intentionally assigned. The result of pairing down from 21 damage types we initially started wit,

You say that, but they are. They may be of use to the devs behind the scenes with their existing names, but the outward-facing label that the players see means less than nothing. What is physical if it can be made to look like a mental attack? That is energy if it can be made to look like a sword slash?

Holdovers or not, intentional or not; they are still meaningless in an aesthetically decoupled game. As such they seem to be causing more harm than good. Just look at this thread for the evidence of that.

Point being it is already in code, documentation, and everything forward facing will reference from code.

Also, doing our damndest to avoid different internal terminology from external terminology, it can cause a lot of break downs in communication and more misunderstandings.


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HERE, HERE!! Having had to

HERE, HERE!! Having had to collate project documents from multiple sources, have a consistent terminology is SOOOOOOO important. People would get annoyed when I came to them with the question, "When you say this, do you mean . . . ?" I always had to create a glossary of terms and cross references as I was working on the papers. Not fun.

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The problem is just that

The problem is just that people want their fire melee to have the energy damage tag, which is why people are meh on it. Others aren't meh on it and don't care.

I do feel the need for damage types just to go with the defense sets though. :p

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Well, until they come out

Well, until they come out with the Energy DoT melee set; I guess they'll have to make do with coloring their Physical Melee Set with flames.

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Well, shoot. If the real

Well, shoot. If the real reason for these names is that it is too late to change the names now. We should have started with that.

But having said that, Physical, Energy and Exotic still sounds a lot better than Type I, Type II and Type III anyways. Even if they carry with them some defunct meanings.

Of course, until we see the power effects that are available for the different powers, there may actually be different aesthetic choices for the different damage types for all we know. Maybe the aesthetic choices available for physical type damage are going to be different than for energy and exotic. If this is the case, then I suppose it would still make some sense to carry on with those names even beyond it being too late to change them.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Well, shoot. If the real reason for these names is that it is too late to change the names now. We should have started with that.

But having said that, Physical, Energy and Exotic still sounds a lot better than Type I, Type II and Type III anyways. Even if they carry with them some defunct meanings.

Of course, until we see the power effects that are available for the different powers, there may actually be different aesthetic choices for the different damage types for all we know. Maybe the aesthetic choices available for physical type damage are going to be different than for energy and exotic. If this is the case, then I suppose it would still make some sense to carry on with those names even beyond it being too late to change them.

I doubt the devs would hold such limitations when their game slogan is "Make Anyone". There's 0 reason why a 'physical' melee set can't have an energy theme. One of the animation devs (AmiEvil on discord) posted a fire melee work in progress video in late 2015. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRL-r4XkGv8

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Yeah. Energy Melee, Fire

Yeah. Energy Melee, Fire Melee that can be done with just animations. What it will lack is people feeling the meta aspect of it being energy damage.

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McJigg wrote:
McJigg wrote:

I doubt the devs would hold such limitations when their game slogan is "Make Anyone". There's 0 reason why a 'physical' melee set can't have an energy theme. One of the animation devs (AmiEvil on discord) posted a fire melee work in progress video in late 2015. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRL-r4XkGv8

That video was made back when they had themes. Themes have since been discarded. Until we see what is actually going to be offered with the game at release, I'd be hesitant to be so positive about anything. For all we know, it could be that power effects and animations associated with energy and exotic melee attacks will be held in reserve for the alternative melee power sets Tannim has up his sleeve for future release.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
McJigg wrote:

I doubt the devs would hold such limitations when their game slogan is "Make Anyone". There's 0 reason why a 'physical' melee set can't have an energy theme. One of the animation devs (AmiEvil on discord) posted a fire melee work in progress video in late 2015. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRL-r4XkGv8

That video was made back when they had themes. Themes have since been discarded. Until we see what is actually going to be offered with the game at release, I'd be hesitant to be so positive about anything. For all we know, it could be that power effects and animations associated with energy and exotic melee attacks will be held in reserve for the alternative melee power sets Tannim has up his sleeve for future release.

That video was his own testing environment using his own terminology just testing one of the potential combat engines and certain mechanics. The names have nothing to do with “themes” as they were used in context for aesthetics under the old system,

Also the Type of the set has zero connection to the aesthetics. The animations and particle effects do not check on the Type carried in the power. The only things the aesthetics account for are if the particles are for are when it comes to Melee or Ranged animations, single target or area, and if it is location based.

Power mechanics however do tend to follow a loose set of rules. Knock effects are usually Typed to Physical. While healing is usually Typed to Exotic.

In that regard you will see future sets with different mechanics using the 3 types. There will be Energy and Exotic types Melee offense in the future.


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I gotta ask what some of

I gotta ask what some of these 21 types were :p

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I gotta ask what some of these 21 types were :p

I wanna guess.

1. Crushing = forces pressing against the surface of an object from one or multiple sides
2. Striking = basic contusion type of damage that can be amplified or amplify other types of damage freely (think ball of fire vs flaming rock)
3. Piercing = A knife or bullet, basically. Usually defined as penetrating a layer of defense.
4. Slashing = Surface area type of attack when critical can cause egregious damage such as amputation/decapitation.
5. Heat = Self explanitory
6. Cold = Also self explanatory
7. Kinetic = Motion of matter. A strong example of kinetic is collision damage. Speed melee would incorporate some kinetic damage.
8. Energy = An inbetween of Heat and Radiation with regard to effects, energy relies on a certain spectrum of photons emmitted in a wave. Causes many varying effects depending on what kind of energy (a catch all for other energy types not covered in heat or radiation)
9. Radiation = Particle based energy type that comes with a difficult or easy to block characteristic.
10. Anti-Energy = Similar to radiation, it's more particle based, difficult to block and can result in explosive effects when attempted to shield from it.
11. Darkness = Not really physical but can be the absence of energy or shade itself with chilling and mysterious effects.
12. Void = Also gravity, it is the lack of kinetic force or the inverse.
13. Ethereal = unknown or supernatural energy. Such energy can affect the soul and defended from with mental prowess.
14. Ki = Spirit, soul, chakra, etc. Energy built, channeled and focused by living creatures, can overwhelm the mental but depleted by the ethereal.
15. Psi = Mental force that is defined by fortitudes of the mind, with this type of effect, you can stave off supernatural energy but fall short against the force of the body united with the spirit.
16. Malice = pure emotions put into power. Guided purely by emotions can affect the target on other levels.
17. Righteous = law put forth as a guide. The polar opposite of malice, law leads to justice while emotions lead to malice (think demonic vs holy)
18. Toxic = Corrosion. Breaking down of things.
19. Healing = Building/rebuilding of things.
20. Untyped = Just in case
21. I dunno.

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About a 4th of those are

About a 4th of those are correct. The rest, not so much.

You may just see those old types come back for use with a sub-system I have in mind. Definitely a post launch (probably post first major issue release or a few beyond that as well).


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i'll give a try :p

i'll give a try :p

1 Striking, being struck with a blunt object
2 Ballistic, being hit with a small solid object
3 Slashing, being sliced
4 Piercing, being stabbed with a larger object
5 Cold
6 Heat
7 Dark, being damaged by dark magic
8 Energy, being hit with kinetic energy
9 Electric, being shocked by electrons
10 Psychic, being damaged by attacks on the consciousness
11 Dread, being damaged by emotional attacks
12 Radiation, being damaged by ionizing radiation
13 Sonic, being damaged by high frequency vibrations
14 Void, being damaged by matter-destroying forces (e.g. anti-matter)
15 Toxic, being damaged by chemical toxins
16 Pathogenic, being damaged by microbes
17 Psychosomatic, emotional damage from the self (illusion damage)
18 Corrosive, being damaged by corrosive agents
19 Magnetic, being damaged by strong magnetic forces
20 Spirit, being damaged at your very life essence (souls sword vs dark blast)
21 Time, being damaged by alterations in your timeline

Okay I had to do some research for inspiration on that :p

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Blunt/Smashing

Blunt/Smashing
Lethal/Slashing
Ballistic (could go with Lethal, but possible splitting)
Falling (could go under Smashing)
Toxic
Energy
Darkness
Fire
Cold
Electricity (could be energy, but they may have split it up)
Radiation
Psychic
Magic
Poison (could go with Toxic, but I believe Mutants & Masterminds splits these up)
Shadow (could go with Darkness but they may have split them up for some reason)

I'm thinking the 21 sounds like it was taking the basics and then splitting them up even more.

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Honestly I'm most proud of

Honestly I'm most proud of the inclusion of Time, Psychosomatic, and Pathogenic, had to wrack my brains on those.

Psychosomatic could easily be Dread but I think the effects of self-inflicted psychic damage are different from generalized psychic damage or dread form an outside source.

Pathogenic could be just toxic, but if you treat just the toxin the microbe will still be there damaging you.

Time is my favorite because it can't really be combined into another type: Would it be void because it's matter destroying? Or Dark because it's magic, but what if it's science? Spirit? but arguably your soul is intact if your body is aged.

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I guess I was thinking less

I guess I was thinking less on how you guys planned out 21 damage types and pondered more on how I would try to contextualize 21 damage types.

I starting thinking of a system rather than concepts to use for powers, part of that system being a counter system then started thinking of a concept division system. The concept division would lend a set of mechanics certain damage typings limited to the "mechanical typings" which would be striking, slashing, heat, cold, energy, anti-energy, psi and toxic. You could then specify some of those sets various alternate "supplemental typings" (which would be like crushing, piercing, kinetic, radiation, electrical (that would be the 21st type I didn't think of), darkness, void and healing) available to modify or even replace the main mechanical typing depending on how you modify the skills as well as use a "flavor typing" which are kind of like exotic typings that can be added to but not replace existing mechanical/supplemental typings (this would be void, ethereal, ki, malice, righteous).

Such a system would use the AT/powerset system of CoX though, not an aesthetic decoupling. So there would be a fire blast set which would be fire, and the effects would look like fire, you would just have the ability to change some of the effects and damage typing similar to how with IOs, you could add damage procs, but this would just change the typing and effects for alternative concepts.

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Well the larger 21 damage

Well the larger 21 damage types list were in part being put together to pair with specific effects for set-based mechanics. As I said earlier, things changed as we iterated on concepts and designs.


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Will you be able to fake it

Will you be able to fake it by making flaming fists?

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Gorgon wrote:
Gorgon wrote:

Will you be able to fake it by making flaming fists?

Yep. Aesthetic decoupling at work.