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The Archetype page

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Radiac
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The Archetype page

I don't know how hard this would be, and I know I can't do it, but it would be cool if the different Archetype descriptions on the Archetype page were links to something else. Like each archetype should link to a page that describes either that archetype's power sets, or maybe a bio of the iconic example of that archetype. With art, and other info. Just a thought. I understand there are bigger fish to fry at the moment.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Lin Chiao Feng
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Ooh, thanks for reminding me.

Ooh, thanks for reminding me. I thought of something along those lines months ago (just linking to archetype-specific pages with power lists, which then link to power set pages, and so forth, but not the extra art and info you mention), but the bigger fish you mentioned kind of sank the boat I was on.

That said, I think we might be getting to the point where something like that both makes sense and could be done, though I'd need to gather a lot of that other info first. Great idea!

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

MeSoSollyWan
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Now that it's been a year

Now that it's been a year since we thoroughly discussed this and we're edging even nearer towards alpha/beta/launch, things like this would be a really nice features to have.

Once "Kickstarter 2.0" comes, along with it will be new faces to our site here. Having good, clear, and informative links will only benefit MWM and City of Titans. We'll be getting to a place pretty soon (see: Spring/Summer) where we will need to have everything from simple gameplay videos, to screen shots, and down to details about each Powerset.

I know that MWM has their big monthly announcements set in advance (and they shuffle when necessary), and I am sure we'll at least get some details on Masteries and Tertiaries in the coming months, but before we know it the site will need to have all that extra polish and information for the new and old faces alike.

It would be pretty cool if they could start with, maybe, 2 Powersets per Archetype to show the full set, and then add more Powersets to the site over time.

McJigg
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I don't even need a list of

I don't even need a list of all the powers from a set, just a proper explanation on the main site about character creation with how primary, secondary, mastery and tertiary powers work. Right now the bulk of info is either archived in kickstarter updates or spread throughout dev snippits in the forums.

The main page currently has the following:

The Characters page that only provides a link to the Archtype page.

An archtype page that gives a description of each class, but does not clearly state what power sets they have. (No mention of defence/melee sets on guardian). It lists all 3 sub types for each class even though only 1 will be available at launch. No mention that Commander will not be available at launch. You can't even click these to link over to what their primary power sets would be.

The power page that does state there will be 5 choices per set at launch and lists the sets with a link to the pages.

The sets pages that list all 5 options for the set with a brief description and 2 example powers.

No where, ANYWHERE is aesthetic decoupling mentioned on the main site. It's in Kickstarter updates, it's on the forums, but not the main site. New people visiting will see vampiric and atrophic, while being disappointed/confused that they can't make their fire or ice hero.

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I second both of these

I second both of these notions made. The Archetype/Character pages on the main site do need a revisit and/or update on how power sets and such work, as well as mention and explain aesthetic decoupling just so it's here. At the moment everything is pretty much spread throughout Kickstarter updates and Dev posts made here on the forums, on top of that I have found that I need to refer to this forum thread: https://cityoftitans.com/forum/compilation-information-city-titans just so I can save myself the trouble of looking between several different places when looking for information.

With this game hopefully picking up steam near the middle-half of the year, a revisiting of some kind of collective information would be much appreciated since there also needs to be an account for those (like myself) who haven't played CoH and like McJigg said, new people who are just visiting the site are going to be thrown off by the lack of mentioning of powers like the usual elemental-themed powers like fire and ice.

"If I am to die in battle, Remember me for who I was and not what I've become..."

MeSoSollyWan
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You bring up very good points

You bring up very good points, McJigg. All of these things can definitely be improved, and will need to be improved when the site starts to get more outside attention. Well, hopefully before that point.

McJigg wrote:

Right now the bulk of info is either archived in kickstarter updates or spread throughout dev snippits in the forums.

And this ^ is an ongoing problem we've had here, even years ago when I was just lurking and not really a poster. The information piecemeal is a real drag. Imagine a newer, prospective player trying to figure out these things. Things like Stealth, and how it works in this game, is a very common thing in MMO's, but a prospective player trying to figure any of that out would be pretty SoL.

Now, I am sure MWM has plans for demystifying Masteries and Tertiaries, and I am sure they plan to update the site with Aesthetic Decoupling on its own page, but for now a lot of people have defaulted to checking Pyromantic's compilation thread but even that can't keep up with the piecemeal info that is trickling throughout the forums.
But don't get me wrong! I am glad Pyro did that, and I am glad the devs try to be communicative when they can, but it does get exhausting trying to piece all the info together ourselves.

TitansCity
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I'm trying to work on a

I'm trying to work on a community multilanguages website (everyone could register to fill the info, like a wiki) that will gather those informations but it's still under developpment :/ ... As soon as i can i will use the Pyromantic's compilation thread to put infos on it.
(Some test and feedback on this project in US langague will be a great help ^^ either to enter informations since it's not my main language)

SisterSilicon
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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:

You bring up very good points, McJigg. All of these things can definitely be improved, and will need to be improved when the site starts to get more outside attention. Well, hopefully before that point.

McJigg wrote:

Right now the bulk of info is either archived in kickstarter updates or spread throughout dev snippits in the forums.

And this ^ is an ongoing problem we've had here, even years ago when I was just lurking and not really a poster. The information piecemeal is a real drag. Imagine a newer, prospective player trying to figure out these things. Things like Stealth, and how it works in this game, is a very common thing in MMO's, but a prospective player trying to figure any of that out would be pretty SoL.

Now, I am sure MWM has plans for demystifying Masteries and Tertiaries, and I am sure they plan to update the site with Aesthetic Decoupling on its own page, but for now a lot of people have defaulted to checking Pyromantic's compilation thread but even that can't keep up with the piecemeal info that is trickling throughout the forums.
But don't get me wrong! I am glad Pyro did that, and I am glad the devs try to be communicative when they can, but it does get exhausting trying to piece all the info together ourselves.

More complete and detailed documentation will be a prerequisite for Kickstarter 2.0, but MWM can’t do that until they’ve confirmed to themselves that they know how all these things will work together. Everything MWM has revealed so far, piecemeal as it is, has been subject to change to varying degrees. This is software development, after all. It’s hard to document public APIs when the internals haven’t been completed yet. While high-level concepts, like Archetypes, Masteries, and power tiers are probably stable, the details of how they all interact may not have been tested and confirmed until quite recently as they’ve pushed for full integration.

And as any MMO developer will tell you, anything you put in writing will be treated as a promise by some segment of the customer base, “subject to change” disclaimers be damned. There is a danger in releasing details too soon, especially when the base game still hasn’t fully emerged from its R&D phase.

Twitter: @SisterSilicon

Doctor Tyche
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SisterSilicon wrote:
SisterSilicon wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:

You bring up very good points, McJigg. All of these things can definitely be improved, and will need to be improved when the site starts to get more outside attention. Well, hopefully before that point.

McJigg wrote:

Right now the bulk of info is either archived in kickstarter updates or spread throughout dev snippits in the forums.

And this ^ is an ongoing problem we've had here, even years ago when I was just lurking and not really a poster. The information piecemeal is a real drag. Imagine a newer, prospective player trying to figure out these things. Things like Stealth, and how it works in this game, is a very common thing in MMO's, but a prospective player trying to figure any of that out would be pretty SoL.

Now, I am sure MWM has plans for demystifying Masteries and Tertiaries, and I am sure they plan to update the site with Aesthetic Decoupling on its own page, but for now a lot of people have defaulted to checking Pyromantic's compilation thread but even that can't keep up with the piecemeal info that is trickling throughout the forums.
But don't get me wrong! I am glad Pyro did that, and I am glad the devs try to be communicative when they can, but it does get exhausting trying to piece all the info together ourselves.

More complete and detailed documentation will be a prerequisite for Kickstarter 2.0, but MWM can’t do that until they’ve confirmed to themselves that they know how all these things will work together. Everything MWM has revealed so far, piecemeal as it is, has been subject to change to varying degrees. This is software development, after all. It’s hard to document public APIs when the internals haven’t been completed yet. While high-level concepts, like Archetypes, Masteries, and power tiers are probably stable, the details of how they all interact may not have been tested and confirmed until quite recently as they’ve pushed for full integration.

And as any MMO developer will tell you, anything you put in writing will be treated as a promise by some segment of the customer base, “subject to change” disclaimers be damned. There is a danger in releasing details too soon, especially when the base game still hasn’t fully emerged from its R&D phase.

You're not kidding there. Look at how many people still complain about promised features missing from Fable.... near 16 years later.

Technical Director

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MeSoSollyWan
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Oh I completely agree and am

Oh I completely agree and am very mindful of that, what I am suggesting is that we're getting to the point where if alpha/beta/launch is to take place later this year, then marketing needs to begin in the near future.

I am not suggesting they rush out information like crazy. But I am saying that we are getting to the point where extra professionalism and presentation is necessary, and information should be more of a stream than a trickle. The devs have already stated that the presentation part is a goal for them, as we saw with the character creator preview. That was great, production value was very high. The website needs to reflect that. If new prospective subs see awesome videos like that, then follow links to a website that doesn't have a clear way to get information, there will be a drop-off. That's just statistics.

And of course things will change, and there will be hang-ups.. Heck the character creator preview was delayed, like, 6 months alone and who knows if something even more drastic happens and the game itself gets delayed again.

Bottom line though, we're edging ever nearer to the sweet spot between "too soon" and "too late," and getting information uploaded to this site in a good, clean, consistent matter will only benefit everyone especially when "Kickstarter 2.0" rolls out.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

You're not kidding there. Look at how many people still complain about promised features missing from Fable.... near 16 years later.

That poor game... I still enjoyed it, though.

Edit: reworded a sentence.

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'Kickstarter 2.0' is a useful

'Kickstarter 2.0' is a useful concept and an important waypoint in the development cycle, but are there not more efficient ways to collect additional funding besides Kickstarter? I admit I'm not even a novice when it comes to public funding programs, but I understood that Kickstarter claims a percentage of the take? Now that MWM is an established company, could we buy... stock? Fund a bond to 'buy' the perqs? I'm not sure what the method would be.

Be Well!
Fireheart

MeSoSollyWan
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

'Kickstarter 2.0' is a useful concept and an important waypoint in the development cycle, but are there not more efficient ways to collect additional funding besides Kickstarter? I admit I'm not even a novice when it comes to public funding programs, but I understood that Kickstarter claims a percentage of the take? Now that MWM is an established company, could we buy... stock? Fund a bond to 'buy' the perqs? I'm not sure what the method would be.

Be Well!
Fireheart

I think it's codenamed "Kickstarter 2.0". Because of things like what you've just mentioned, setting up additionally funding gets pretty sticky. I think they are definitely considering other platforms to fundraise.

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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:

I think it's codenamed "Kickstarter 2.0". Because of things like what you've just mentioned, setting up additionally funding gets pretty sticky. I think they are definitely considering other platforms to fundraise.

Pretty sure it's actually, for the most part, called "Second Chance Funding". The idea is to open the floor for people who didn't have the chance to kickstart it in the first place to get access to the various perks of a kickstarter package, though toned down somewhat,

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:

what I am suggesting is that we're getting to the point where if alpha/beta/launch is to take place later this year, then marketing needs to begin in the near future.

That might be getting to far ahead of things. We don't even know if MWM has a proper/functioning infrastructure (I am talking people & process) to actually support the game once it goes live in any form (alpha, beta, character creator, full blown live). My experience in QA has me worried that they don't have all of the components compiled together yet with a late fall 2018 release date. The distributed development style helps MWM due to their makeup. However I am concerned that they think they can just throw all the pieces together and have a functioning product. And that isn't a fair characterization, but given that they as a company have not released a game before I am worried that they will be using the playerbase as their iterative bug finding / code fix loop. I want to help, but marketing the game too soon will doom the effort if what is released does not meet certain standards. I am skeptical about how much work they think they need to get a game released by the end of the year.

I agree that there needs to be a lot of descriptive information about powers and how you craft your vision. And that information needs to come directly from MWM, not a third party / fansite. People are going to need a primer on hero vs villain and how the mechanics manifest in the game. A lot of walkthroughs and videos will be necessary just to get people through the character creation process (there are so many archetypes and core ideas that need to be shown). Then the world of possibilities available to each character needs to be conveyed (sagas, paths, etc) without steering people down a certain trajectory. And the evolution of the character needs to be hinted at so people understand that your character is forever growing & evolving (you don't just hit level cap and call it done).

Like others have mentioned here, there are so many dev nuggets in the forums that there is no way an outsider will be able to wade through it even if we filter stuff into one mega thread. If the forums are their archiving mechanism for game details, this game is doomed (as Lothic has hinted at). The necessary information should already exist somewhere, it just needs to be located, then checked against the spec, then verified against what has actually been coded, then crafted into a stable media format (text, video, alien mind probe, etc).

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Devs have been talking for

Devs have been talking for months about challenges of 'integration'.

I really think the best way to go is to get the thing running, release it to the faithful, ensure that it's operating well, get some articles and critiques written by appropriate media, and only Then worry about 'advertising'. Not precisely a 'stealth launch', but no need for a circus.

Be Well!
Fireheart

MeSoSollyWan
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Devs have been talking for months about challenges of 'integration'.

I really think the best way to go is to get the thing running, release it to the faithful, ensure that it's operating well, get some articles and critiques written by appropriate media, and only Then worry about 'advertising'. Not precisely a 'stealth launch', but no need for a circus.

Be Well!
Fireheart

I like this plan. There is a great resource of essentially "free labor" for QA testing in the steadfast forum-goers here. Of course appropriate NDA's and such may need to be signed, but that's all par for the course if the devs decide to go that route.

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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:

I like this plan. There is a great resource of essentially "free labor" for QA testing in the steadfast forum-goers here. Of course appropriate NDA's and such may need to be signed, but that's all par for the course if the devs decide to go that route.

True, but I was really talking about the inevitable post-launch bugs that always seem to crop up. Kickstarter backers already represent a pool for alpha/beta testing. Better to ramp up the population more gradually, rather than advertising for huge crowds, only to have the servers puke when they all show up on launch day. Believe me, I expect plenty of extra bodies to show up for launch. "Build it and they will come."

Be Well!
Fireheart

Doctor Tyche
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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Devs have been talking for months about challenges of 'integration'.

I really think the best way to go is to get the thing running, release it to the faithful, ensure that it's operating well, get some articles and critiques written by appropriate media, and only Then worry about 'advertising'. Not precisely a 'stealth launch', but no need for a circus.

Be Well!
Fireheart

I like this plan. There is a great resource of essentially "free labor" for QA testing in the steadfast forum-goers here. Of course appropriate NDA's and such may need to be signed, but that's all par for the course if the devs decide to go that route.

And we do have a pool of people who already signed up as well.

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MeSoSollyWan
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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Devs have been talking for months about challenges of 'integration'.

I really think the best way to go is to get the thing running, release it to the faithful, ensure that it's operating well, get some articles and critiques written by appropriate media, and only Then worry about 'advertising'. Not precisely a 'stealth launch', but no need for a circus.

Be Well!
Fireheart

I like this plan. There is a great resource of essentially "free labor" for QA testing in the steadfast forum-goers here. Of course appropriate NDA's and such may need to be signed, but that's all par for the course if the devs decide to go that route.

And we do have a pool of people who already signed up as well.

👍👍

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:

I like this plan. There is a great resource of essentially "free labor" for QA testing in the steadfast forum-goers here. Of course appropriate NDA's and such may need to be signed, but that's all par for the course if the devs decide to go that route.

And we do have a pool of people who already signed up as well.

Where is this signup sheet?
And what percentage of that pool do you believe will actually test it versus playing it?
And what percentage of that pool have experience testing and know what to look for? And are they familiar with the spec so they understand what is a bug versus what isn't coded (or integrated) yet so that they don't create extra development noise just filtering through non-bugs?

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Regarding naming, the only

Regarding naming, the only place we've been planning on using the "Kickstarter" name is in reference to the reward tiers, and we might even drop the name there. The semi-official name is "Second Chance," abbreviated "SC."

Second Chance is not connected to, being run by, or using code from Kickstarter at all. Just the reward tier data, which is our property.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...