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Another Extra Credits on in-game currencies and inflation

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Radiac
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Another Extra Credits on in-game currencies and inflation

link here:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sumZLwFXJqE[/url]

They compare allowing people to trade IGC for real-money-backed "Stars" or whatever to being on the gold standard. They mention that even this is not the "final solution" to in-game currency inflation, but that it can cause it to happen slower. They mention the existence of "real world problems" of being on the gold standard, and that such problems do not occur in MMOs. I believe they are right on that score and will mention briefly one such gold standard issue as a case in point.

When the U.S. was on the gold standard, it was possible that the value of money could actually increase over time. This would be "deflation", the opposite of inflation, where prices go up over time and the currency itself is more valuable than it used to be. This may not seem like a problem, and in an MMO it might not ever happen anyway, because people are constantly making more IGC, but in the real world it's bad. The problem is that you may have any number of different long-term contracts that deal in currency, like bonds, or rental agreements. If your rent is $1000 per moth this year and that's a fair price now, then the value of the dollar goes up and prices go down, your rental agreement is now a really good deal for your landlord, as the agreed-upon rent is now worth more than it was when you agreed to pay it. The same effect makes bonds a REALLY good investment for the buyers and a terrible risk for the sellers, as the agreed upon interest rate is actually getting better for the bond holder over time. In real estate, the prices of land going down and the rent becoming effectively higher over time make farming a really bad business to be in, as you have to grow and sell crops, the price of which is deflating over time, in order to pay your rent/lease/mortgage which is a locked-in amount and thus you work just as hard every year and get to keep less and less of the money for yourself, while having to pay the same amount to the bank. On paper your rent is the same as it was last year, in reality it represents more effective buying power than it used to and you are basically swimming harder just to tread water. Meanwhile lenders make out like bandits while those working and trying to earn money are getting destroyed as prices go down and costs, like rent and in interest paid on loans/bonds stay the same.

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Right, but that never happens

Right, but that never happens in an MMO, because new currency is constantly being generated, so the value of IGC trends downwards and you end up needing a thousand rupees to buy an ice-cream. Happily, there are currency sinks.

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Fireheart

Radiac
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Ideally, the process by which

Ideally, the process by which you make useful Augments and Refinements for your toons to use destroys IGC AND items that drop, thus sinking both.

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Izzy
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makes my Head Spin.

makes my Head Spin.

can't we have a BARTER system as well?! :/

i just don't feel like the players should be allowed to set whatever price they want!
It's not a democratic City, its a Sovereign Titan City, where laws won't let you offload items below a certain price, or Above. >;D

Problem Solved! ;)

Radiac
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I remember a time once

I remember a time once playing Magic Online when I had opened a pack and gotten a card that was selling for like 10 tickets. Bots were buying them for like 5 tix, so I went on the free-form chat room and advertised that a I had ONE of them for sale for 8 tix. I got a guy responding to me with "What makes you think your is worth 8 when I can only get 5 for mine?" to which I responded "I own one copy of {card}, I will part with it for 8 tix, if you don't want to take that deal, then don't. It's my card, I have a right to decide to sell it or not to sell it, and I do not wish to part with it for 5 tix, I want 8 or else I'm holding onto it. It's your choice, take it or leave it." I have no idea what the card was or whether or not the guy bought it off me, but the point is, Democracy or no Democracy, people who have something that is tradable have the right to set their asking price for it or else NOT sell it if that price isn't met. Depending on my needs at the time, I might prefer to hold my widget and buy more rather than sell for a price someone else is forcing me to sell for.

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Radiac
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Just a fun fact for you, the

Just a fun fact for you, the book "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz" which was the basis for the movie, has been and can be interpreted as a satirical allegory about the gold standard and the effect it was having on farmers and mortgages in the late 1800s. The author, L. Frank Baum never claimed it was anything other than a childrens' book, but the symbolism and story are very strongly parallel to the Populist movement of Baum's day, and authors have analyzed it as such, not unlike the parallels some have made between the Lord of the Rings books and World War II with Tolkien.

Another children's author who's work has been linked to economics, though far more overtly in this case was Astrid Lindgren, the author of the Pippi Longstocking books. Lindgren was a self-employed author of children's literature in Sweden, where the political party in power, the Social Democrats, which she herself was a supporter of, enacted tax laws making her personal marginal tax rate effectively 102%. This was due to a combination of income taxes on employee wages and fees that employers were legally required to pay, and since she legally was definable as both an employer and an employee, she had to pay both.

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Lin Chiao Feng
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Ideally, the process by which you make useful Augments and Refinements for your toons to use destroys IGC AND items that drop, thus sinking both.

Unless the rate you're burning IGC on Augments and Refinements and such at least sorta matches the rate you're earning IGC, you'll get inflation. Further, in a typical game people stop making things like that once they're at level cap.

Back in CoH, the TOs were so useless you may as well just sell them outright. DOs were okay, and cheap enough to afford most of your slots, assuming this is your first character and you didn't transfer over 100M inf. SOs were expensive, and cost more than your typical earn rate up until around level 35-40. Once you hit 50, you had all SOs, possibly pushed to effective level 53, and if you were getting anything more it was Hamidon enhancements. This is pre-invention system, of course; IOs rendered all the others effectively moot. Even common IOs were better than TO/DO/SO because they didn't degrade as you leveled.

None of this was a great inf sink after you hit level 50. The prices never changed, either.

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There is the problem that the

There is the problem that the demand for Augments and Refinements will decrease over time. There are some caveats to that though:

1. That assumes players who have reached the level cap and have fully twinked out their builds keep playing and generating IGC and items they don't really need. In my experience, when I get to that point in a game, I stop playing, or play a lot less than I used to. And anyway, you can always make another toon to level and build with the IGC.

2. It is possible to make the process of getting to the cap and to the point of fully built take a long time. After all, we're likely to have like 100 slots to put Augments and Refinements into, per toon.

3. That can be less of a problem while there are new people coming in and playing the game from "square one". Newbies need gear.

4. If the making of useful Augments etc requires you to effectively destroy IGC and raw materials that go into that process, the fact that you're reducing the amount of both things in the environment will likely tend to slow the inflation rate. In GW2, the inflation is not bad, and there you do content and get mostly items, which are mostly worthless, but you can spend some IGC to de-craft them into raw materials, which are somewhat more valuable. They can tweak the drop rates of IGC and items such that it stays relatively flat, though some inflation is expected. Also, in that game, you don;t get any specific IGC or item rewards for every monster kill. Sometimes you just get XP. It's random.

5. I still like the idea of giving players temporary buffs to spend IGC on so as to give the capped and fully-build a reason to spend. I don't like the idea of making it a thing that you use all the time like Insps, but maybe a more substantial, but less frequently used thing would be good. Like the Warburg Nukes, the Jellomen, etc. In GW2 they have food crafting which allows you to make food items that when consumed give you a temporary buff. You can't stack different food buffs, so it doesn't get out of hand crazy, but there are tons of food options to choose from and a crafting system for it. There are even communal "open buffet" type things you can throw down and everyone can partake of.

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doctor tyche
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When they posted this video,

When they posted this video, I sat down and watched. I would up laughing a lot, because I've been saying the same things for years.

Recall, our "Cash Store" currency, nicknamed Stars, while our in-game currency, nicknamed infusion, is completely independent. The goal is to trade between them, but nothing purchasable by one can be bought by the other.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

The goal is to trade between them, but nothing purchasable by one can be bought by the other.

Like the Gems in Guild wars II ?

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doctor tyche
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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
The goal is to trade between them, but nothing purchasable by one can be bought by the other.
Like the Gems in Guild wars II ?

That was the exact model we used as a foundation.

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So... if i understand, you

So... if i understand, you are not on this exact model, if you based your system on it ^^ It has probably change ? Did you mull this idea over ?

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doctor tyche
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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

So... if i understand, you are not on this exact model, if you based your system on it ^^ It has probably change ? Did you mull this idea over ?

We cannot use their system exactly due to the nature of both games. Any system has to be adapted to the demands of the particular game involved.

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yep of course but isn't it

yep of course but isn't it risky to use something like the law of supply and demand ? I mean, how to be sure it's a safe system for both players and MWM ?
hum... of course it's a good idea... if one is cheaper than the other, it will rise from itself to a upper price... ok i got it, it's a safe system to regulate the market ^^ i should think before asking lol

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just to alert you, when i'm

just to alert you, when i'm posting, i have a message like '2017-02-03 23:47:15 SERVER -> CLIENT: 220 smtp.gmail.com ESMTP 94sm148 ...... ' which is displayed on top of the forum... with some (i think) too much information being visible ^^

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Odd, let me check.

Odd, let me check.

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1. Even if they haven't fully

1. Even if they haven't fully optimized, you're still on an exponential decay curve. The only things I can think of to upset that, like requiring players to discard all enhancements in a respec, probably would just drive players away for being unusually harsh. As for making an alt, you run into the inheritance problem: all the alts will have access to a huge war chest from the get go. So the IGC limits only really work on the first character.

2. Of course, if it takes too long, players will tire of it.

5. In Star Trek Online, food items get fed to tribbles, tribbles get fed to cannibal tribbles, and the carcasses are turned in on Quonos for gold-pressed latinum... so long as they don't catch onto your farming operation.

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The thing about the GW2 model

The thing about the GW2 model that's a really drastic shift from the CoX system, well one of the things about it like that, is that the crafting is necessary to make the good gear for yourself, because the high end gear you make (Ascended gear) is not tradable to anyone (Ascended gear is account bound, Legendary gear can be sold, but takes a lot more work to make and has the same stats, just better cosmetics, and the stats can be changed outside of combat, which is nice). Now, you CAN trade components. You can use raw materials to make an Ascended Coat Lining and an Ascended Coat Panel, which anyone with maxxed crafting levels can then combine into an Ascended Coat, but that coat is then Account Bound as soon as you make it. The point of that is that to get Ascended gear, you have to have maxxed crafting levels, you can't just farm gold and buy it. In order to get your crafting leveled up, you have to burn through a ton of raw materials and craft them into stuff that's basically worthless, or worth WAY less than it cost you to make it anyway. So the system destroys IGC and items that way. Nobody gets rich on value added in making items and selling them for profit, as far as I can tell, or if they do the margins are really thin.

I feel like the steepness of the work curve should increase as you get to higher and higher quality gear making. Ther uppermost tier, LEgendary in GW2, Purple in CoX, can and should take a long time to actually collect and process all the necessary steps to finally make. That is the main driver, for me, to play a level capped toon for a few hours every so often, to eventually get the Unicorn item.

And the food buffs are minor in GW2, and can last from 15 min to 2 hours of real time.

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