Posted on the MWM FB page: http://i.massively.joystiq.com/2014/04/12/the-game-archaeologist-the-danger-of-expecting-lightning-to-str/
This article really annoyed me.
Someone, somewhere might have an unrealistic expectation: O NOES. Let's do nothing, so that won't happen.
Its like telling people who rebuild their homes after a natural disaster: hey, a tornado/fire/tsunami etc wiped out your house once. Your new house can't possibly ever hold the memories that the old one did, so why even try? Just forget about having a house, suffer in your mosquito-y tent and fugeddabouit. PLUS IT MIGHT HAPPEN AGAIN, O NOES! No house for you! You are a fool to even WANT a house.
Well, we CoXers want a new house. Get over it, Internet.
Its like the mere idea that we MIGHT get what we want, is some kind of threat to the gaming world as a whole.
Well, let's just say that I'm not exactly holding my breath in anticipation of the scads of CoH tributes in the making. I admire the spirit and moxie, but anyone expecting final products that can fill the exact gap left behind by the former superhero MMO will undoubtedly be in for great disappointment.
Because, no doubt about it! CoT and CO are equivalents, right?! Since CO is lackluster, how could CoT possibly be any better - even though CO was what, 6-7 YEARS ago?
Maybe I am just feeling grumpy today.
I understand, Illusionss. I read it a few days ago and got irritated for a moment...
and then I realized he was just another person taking the easy path of nay-saying who doesn't understand what we're doing and doesn't care to put for the the effort to find out before running his mouth.
At this point, I'd say almost any press is good press, and our best revenge will be in our community generating and sustaining a spectacular, successful, and innovative game that wow's the gaming community like CoH did--in spirit, by taking the genre forward, not going back to the past.
Stay strong sister.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Lightning doesn't strike twice, that why we are building a lightning rod!
On one hand I can agree with the writer. DUKE Nuken forever anyone? What he doesn't understand is CoT isn't following in CoH footsteps. The desire to press the limits to try to go beyond city of heroes what led to the group that started Heroes and Villains.
So yes he right and wrong. Right that often trying to remake a favorite game tends to fail. Wrong that it flops every time.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
The other aspect where I think pulling in CoT is off is that this is not a case where they are trying to bring back a dead game from long ago. This effort began while the aftershocks of the murder of a very-much-alive CoX were still reverberating throughout our community. That's not nostalgia; it's salvage.
Spurn all ye kindle.
*buries the naysaying article in the kitty litter -- where it belongs!*
[center][color=purple][size=16][b][I][url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78N2SP6JFaI]Just a cat from another star![/url][/I][/b][/size][/color][/center]
Arthur C. Clarke said it best.
"Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction. They may be summed up by the phrases: 1- It's completely impossible. 2- It's possible, but it's not worth doing. 3- I said it was a good idea all along."
Ladies and gentlemen I think we hit stage 2.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
Goes to find an appropriate response in someone's signature file....
Ah, here we are:
Not sure where Tiger got it from, but it seems to fit here ^_^
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
I agree with ^ and ^^ completely.
What bothered me the most was that they called CO a "spiritual successor..." to CoH...It was a competitor, and released while CoH was very much alive. It's flaws are nothing to do with CoH's successes.
I'm in the opinion that between the Three (actual) spiritual successors, one will likely come on top. I feel the superhero MMO is a small market segment, it may have grown with the recent surge of Marvel and DC superhero movies (along with Watchmen and V for Vendetta (almost a superhero movie)), I feel like "th're ain' 'nuff room in this town for the both of us". Maybe two could come out, CoT and one of the others following closer in CoH's footsteps. This is all but speculation, but that is all the credit I can give to Massively on this one.
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[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
>_> Unfortunately I've seen worse from the CO community, even some that went so far as to horde CO as the true successor to CoH and declaring that when CoT fails horribly then all the supporters will crawl back to it and realize it was a stupid idea.
...Sure. Ruin all the fun why don't you? Put it into camps.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Well now, lets' not bash CO while expecting people to uphold COX and CoT. Because by bashing CO, we are doing the same thing that many claim people are doing to CoT effort. There is enough room for both games, three four and even 8 games to exist together each offering good stuff where anyone interested in super hero game can find something they like. FOr some people, CO is actually a good game. Yes, sure, saying CO is a bad or lackluster game is an opinion and people are entitled to it, and those that say what they say about this effort is also entitled to their opinion just as well.
People experience differ. Some probably seen many effort come and go, many started out strong looked promising and withered out. Some succeeded. As far as massively, if we praise them for writing praise, then for a media which is supposed to be neutral and filled with opinion based articles pro and con against the effort, then there is liable to be some that isnt all praise.
We here know what we do, we here know how good a game we though COX was. But remember many people out there and many Massively writers may have not played COX, may have thought it was meh, or may not even liked COX, and may view the going for rebuilding the game in a positive light, and some not so keen on jumping on yet and some think it will not work. All based on their view.
In the massively comment section of the articles, if we have a right to praise, other people have a right to not be so quick to jump on the effort. Use the nay saying as motivation to blow them away with a spectacular game and maybe win them over. Use the support to make a spectacular game and blow them away with the work. Use both good and bad things as motivation.
Me personally I never heard of any great game built upon all praise. The bad stuff, that seem to irritate, can be useful. It can be used to test and see what outsiders, potential customers, are viewing it as. A very useful but usually under estimated and overlooked tool that can be used. I nthe old days games usually were made with mum silence and when they came out it either took off ended up meh or sucked. And many that ended up meh or sucked sometimes just needed a few changes to be great, changes that may have been suggested if there was a way for the potential target customers to see and make suggestions of what they liked and didnt like. Those days are gone. Now we have it, but dismissing anything that isnt all praise can be great folly for the effort. Sometimes improvement comes under challenges from outside sources.
One can think they are the best singer in the world, their family said so, their friends said so, they dismissed everyone that didnt think so off as "hating" and never go anywhere. Or they could have sat down and looked at even the negative view and maybe realize, "hey I could improve in that area" improve and come back and win them over and some peopel they knew existed and go far.
The press is good. I would have been worried if I was making something and nothing but praise in and out of the press. I'd be very worried. But when someone say they are not sure about it or not enthused or say something that isnt all peaches and praise, that is more motivation to be like, now I cant fail and wont fail in fact I will go further than I was originally planning on going. Even if it's simply to say "ha, now, I did it. Say something now." And what I mean by say it is by showing them and sitting back with a nice smug look on my face.
Ha. I'll have to remember that one.
Yes, to an extent the article hits some of the "it's hip to be a naysayer (I can always downplay it later and pretend to be thrilled if they succeed)" benchmarks. In fairness to the author, I feel that it's also very much about the dangers of nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses. People do tend to get carried away by those, and it really is a once in a million event to have a sequel live up to such expectations. The MMO example with which I am most familiar is from WoW, where people insist, "Vanilla WoW was the best we ever had and we should go back to that."
It is also fair to point out that a lot of businesses shamelessly try to capitalize on those feelings of nostalgia.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I'm not BASHING CO, I just have played both games and frankly, do a bit of pootling around in CO at this time, since I literally have nowheres else to go. [I used to play DCUO, but I hit a roadblock mission and they don't have a "drop" feature, so I was kind of at loose ends there. I will admit the game "world" in DCU is lovely, CO could use a bit of that.] But CO is not and never was, a "successor" to CoX. They flat-out wanted to steal CoX's player base.
My understanding was that CO was going to be a mecca of PvPing, their Pvp was going to be awesome and world-breaking and all that. Try it once and never go back! But I don't think that's what actually happened. I do recall hearing that once the game hit live, everything was nerfed to hell and back again, and this ticked a lot of hitherto excited fans off because they felt baited-and-switched. And I do hope CoT does not go down that road.
Not afraid of CO, there is enough room for them and us and whoever else shows up. After all, the gaming universe has room for 5000 WoW clones, why not a few superhero games?
I don't expect all praise. What I don't expect is a bunch of false equivalencies, such as [this is what I took away from the article] "CO was lackluster, it did not stack up to CoX - so nothing you build after that is going to stack up, either. Don't even try, such effort is useless." Comparing CO to CoT is just stupid. Its going to be like comparing a 1960 Volkswagon Beetle to a top of the line Lexus sports car. [Or fancy sports car of your choice.] How could it be otherwise, given the number of years that separate these projects?!
My hope is that CoT ends up putting even CoX in the dust! Wouldn't that be wonderful? Ok, rambling rant over. :-) Great Arthur C. Clark quote btw.
All I took from the article is that you *shouldn't* get your hopes up in that everything from the "new" will be the same as something that was released 5/10/15/20 years ago.
It isn't necessarily "nay saying", but more of a tempering of expectations. Players have changed over the years, and their expectations have (if anything) INCREASED from what they expect from a game, unless the game comes out with a a *very specific* goal/target.
One of the things that I do respect a lot of the "big indie" games that have made it over the past few years is that they seem to have utilized something that Paul Heyman (former owner of ECW... current WWE employee) did with ECW wrestlers.
He put emphasis on the *good things* of the wrestlers, and tried to hide or minimize their downsides directly. ECW didn't have the money to directly compete with the WWE or WCW wrestling companies... so the lighting wasn't as good. They just used basic ring lighting/ring setups. It saved them money.
The wrestlers that they had, some of them had very bad "promo skills", so they paired those wrestlers up with a manager who acted as the voice of the wrestler. Some wrestlers were pure *machines* in the ring, so they gave them as much ring time a possible.... Eddie Guerrero, Rey Mysterio Jr, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Raven, Rob Van Dam, Steve Austin, Brian Pillman, Mick Foley....
Those were all wrestlers who brought something to the ring, and at that point in time (their time in ECW) Brian Pillman, Steve Austin, Mick Foley and Raven were *very* good on the mic and in the ring, so they were given the opportunity to use their voice.
But, could another company be formed up now (even by Paul Heyman) and achieve the same success as ECW had back then? Unlikely... the whole industry has changed since then... the fans are "smarter", more wise about what happens behind the scenes and the like.
Anyway, the TL;DR is that trying to *specifically* capture something from the days of old, is not something that you should specifically aim for. Aim to be the best with what you have, but *do not* aim necessarily for something that you the company do not necessarily have direct control over.
I was definitely puzzled on how CO was a spiritual successor to CoH unless it is based solely on the fact that Cryptic made both. Overall I think the article does bring up some very good points about setting expectation and the power of nostalgia. What I did not like, however, was the blatant stab at the plan z projects. it was unnecessary and added nothing to the article.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
My quibble was with the "And when you have even fewer ingredients?" line, which is patently false for CoT unless the author meant "money". We've got different cooks, sure, but fewer ingredients? We have a new Epic kitchen and every design ingredient that CoH refined over the years, plus the power to borrow ideas and avoid mistakes from every game released since. I'd say we have the best lineup of ingredients one could possibly hope to have when building a high-quality MMO.
That aside, I think it would have been completely fair to note that the Plan Z community-driven development projects have different risks and hurdles to overcome than CoH or CO.
I took from that part that referring to the Project Z's.. that this also included the community spirit of what was on CoX.
Now, for others, it could be mechanics, for others it could be story lines... for some it could be the whole complete package.
But that line was more orientated towards the *consumers* of the product, and not the *developers* of the product, in my mind at least.
Hell, even now we can pretty much agree on the fact that since CoX was closed down, the community for the game has fractured... with different fanbases of the game being at each others throats, in a manner of speaking, just because some former CoX players have decided to play other NCsoft titles (Guild Wars 2 and Wildstar for example).
And this has (between some players) risen to such a degree that some people would call those who do play those games "traitors to the cause", even NOW....
And if those two groups do end up in the same game at the same time... I can imagine that one or the other side (in my mind it would be the "ANti NCsoft crowd" who would be the most rude and abusive towards those who do choose to play other NCsoft titles.
The thing is, for those people who are expecting the *same* community as it was pre CoX closure... they are going to be trying to find a needle in a haystack... that was pretty much lightning in a bottle.
Its not worth my time to try and "punish" "traitors" to the cause. People still playing NCSoft games know what to expect by now. And while I am not going to trash them for it, when the game they are playing now folds... well.... its not like they didn't see that coming. That'll be all the punishment they need - all that time, effort and money being snatched away from them AGAIN.
You pays your money and you makes your choice.
As for the "fewer ingredients" thing, truly: whut. Game developers have more to cook with now, than they ever did in the past! More and better. I can't wait to see what they brew up in the new City! :)
They also said we would never get this far. Look at us now.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
Regardless in the real world lightning tends to strike the same place over and over even without installing a lightning rod if the conditions and location favor lightning strikes. (When it comes to lighting then lighting rods, especially lamp posts and the like, are extremely useful because otherwise you're reliant on passing cars, the moon and stars or people with flashlights for your lighting.)
Hopefully CoT will capture enough of what made CoH so appealing to have the proper conditions for the same sort of lightning to strike here as well. Time will tell, but so far it seems fairly promising.
In theory there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.
On the CoH forums at the end i went by the name Schismatrix.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Well said, Nyx!
Spurn all ye kindle.
*mumbles about spell checker and adds a few N's to his posts*
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
" You could attribute many factors to this, including the state of the industry when each game released, but Cryptic showed us that having most all of the same ingredients and the same chefs could indeed result in one superior product and one lackluster one. On paper, Champions should have improved upon City of Heroes. In reality, it couldn't match up.
And when you have even fewer ingredients? Well, let's just say that I'm not exactly holding my breath in anticipation of the scads of CoH tributes in the making. I admire the spirit and moxie, but anyone expecting final products that can fill the exact gap left behind by the former superhero MMO will undoubtedly be in for great disappointment. "
Ok, let's dissect this a bit.
State of the industry when the game was released. I'm not sure about the industry but the ECONOMY in the US had just taken a shot to the Jimmies so there was less money to squander on a game that might or might not be any good. That's the whole point of hooking up with an established (albeit obscure) IP.
Most all the same ingredients. Seriously? I was a CO supporter from the first. Participated HEAVILY in the Beta. Bought a Lifetime Sub first day it was released. That game NEVER had all the ingredients that CoH had, even at launch. The game lagged after it launched until now it's been sold off twice (IIRC) and now seems to be just a pale parody of what it could have been.
Now we come down to the fewer ingredients comment. Based on what? Sure, CoT isn't working with a massive budget. However I think the people working on it as well as the many fans on the Forums show how strong the support is. The Kickstarter coming in at more than double what was asked for also shows that.
IMHO the guy is a troll, someone who can't create his own material so he has to knock other people's. Stick him back under his bridge and ignore him.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
To personally correct the article's falsehoods about CO with my personal recollections on reality....
Firstly, I do believe it was an attempt to be a spiritual successor or a do-over even. Cryptic had limited staffing and design effort from the CoH project to focus on Champions Online. The studio wanted to move into a better system, outsourced an engine from India, and attempted to gain various IP to help drive a better attempt at what CoH had been dreamed up by the same people. NCSoft actually did save CoH once before and branched off the entire studio and funneled a lot of money back into the game. NCSoft wasn't always bad, they just changed gears and decided it was better business to shut down something that was solvent enough to self-maintain with a 3% profit. NCS stock dropped 50% in the weeks following the announcement, so I think they recognize it was a bad call and some of their concessions would have been worth it. Original designs of CoH had much of the freeform, and sought to forge a new IP because they couldn't obtain licensing for the Champions IP.
Secondly, CO didn't fail because of the content or the gameplay. It failed because it was rushed by Atari. Cryptic recognized major flaws in beta and had no option but to attempt to fix them. Then they were forced to release a game with changes hardly tested and applied to the test server the weekend before. Comparatively, blizzard keeps any sweeping changes like that on their PTR for WoW for at least 6 weeks to gauge how it would balance. Then a few months out of release, Cryptic announces the Vibora Bay expansion, and that they expected it to be a pay expansion. With that announcement the game went from well populated to near ghost-town overnight, with lifers not bothering to log in and an unprecedented number of subscriptions cancelled. The impact was so severe it drove Atari to relent and allow Cryptic to release it for free. It wasn't much long after STO that Atari pulled out of the MMO business and sold cryptic to PerfectWorld.
Point is, both of the big failings with Cryptic's superhero MMOs has come from bad business decisions inside and out. Their empire is driven by their bottom line and who is only looking at profit margins. In both cases, when a new publisher stepped in the game revived and did well enough to last longer.
MWM is crowdfunded. [i]WE[/i] are the investors giving MWM our money. MWM is the main driver of their own empire. We say what we want, they say if it's possible and then they tell us how much it'll cost. I haven't followed much on the other post CoH projects. I also have no expectations that CoT will attempt to be CoH2. I know that there were problems with CoH. I'm here because I'm following a crowdfunded MMO that falls into the superhero genre.
[i]“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams[/i]
Technically we're benefactors.. If the game were to offer a true equity model I'd gladly be an actual and true investor.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Heroes try against all odds.
Zeroes whine and get nowhere.
Chivalry lives while I breathe
I remember the same things, Summer-Heat. Lots of ex-CoHers forget that NCSoft saved CoH first, but yes, sucked when they shut it down :( I have no idea if CoH would still be making money if it was still around now, but I do know, I'd still be playing it. :p
I still think CO failed when they nerfed everything to OMGWTFness on the first day. This wasn't even something any of their beta testers saw. This was just the day before on test, everything was OMGAWESOME and the next day on launch day WTFHAPPENED?!
The article brings up many things and brings up some points, that if you don't think we have to worry about, you'd be wrong.
I know I'm worried about the game trying to be to much like CoH in terms of story and/or being terribly written (and I don't even expect the best in writing from an MMO). Artsyle is another big worry. Not having great NPCs, even more so when we have posters who want the NPCs to be terrible to make their characters look better.
Then yes, there is the money issue. Don't think that won't be an issue.
Now all this, still hoping CoT succeeds, it's why I donated all I could at that time. Would've been more, but I had no notice! :(
Thank you for the continued support.
As has been said, any publicity is good. Just remember that we are steadfast.
And the proof is in the doing. So, keeping weighing in with your comments and ideas, and let's get this thing done.
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Terlin
[color=#ff0000]The Bullpen[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
I guess I'm in the minority (would not be the first time that happened) but... I still honestly believe that the potential exists for somebody to do the superhero rpg mmo thing "right" and have huge success with it. I greatly admired CoX for its close knit community, innovation, and overall playing enjoyment. It was the closest thing so far we as players have ever seen to the genre being done "right". But, over time, I became equally frustrated by CoX's lack of marketing, strategic direction, flawed code, unprofessional appearance, player cliques, players ignored, repetitive nature and naïve business/development approach. I feel sorry for those still suffering from CoX loss and believe the "answer" is to reanimate this tired (and flawed) game in some form... but I do not agree with them. If that was the article author's point, he did not make it very well.
Is CoT the "answer"? Shoot , I don't know. The proof IS in the doing. Overall, I've been impressed enough with what I've seen so far to throw some financial and encouragement support behind the effort. As far as what anyone else thinks about the potential for success at this stage, well I suppose they are entitled to their opinion and I will give it the attention I believe it merits. In the case of this article, that isn't much. YMMV
I still play CO just for my friends there and the RP I do but I will say I have to agree with you. I've played it since it was released and it's community has only grew bitter and odd. It's not a bad game but the community is very toxic and I'd say the best thing to do is to ignore them.
If people want to say you won't succeeded it's always been my mindset to say you will and do it ten times harder. I just found out about this project from a friend and I can say I still think this article is wrong. CoT shouldn't be CoX again, it won't be, it's a new adventure and we can strive to be better.
Vet of Champions Online and DCUO, Sadly late to the party that was City of Heroes. Proud thief/rogue.
The article touches us only in part, and the concerns they have are justified. We're going to be better than they fear, but what they suggest, that we make a game inspired by City of Heroes, but not a copy, has always been our goal.
They're right. We can do better. We have always intended to do so. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and we can't eat it till it's cooked.
We will do this.
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
I do and I see this as a problem with the current game industry. Back in 1983 the toddling game industry plunged almost overnight from 3.2 BILLION annual sales to just over 100 million. This was largely due to the fact that for the previous several years everyone tried to get on the money train that was electronic gaming and most of them did so with really bad games. Players voted with their wallets and stopped buying. The industry nearly died right there.
Fast-forward to now and we have the same thing happening. Over the last five years the AAA game companies have been releasing worse and worse games. That shot to the Jimmies I mentioned before? Yeah, that hit the gaming industry HARD and they have yet to recover. Their response? Hurry up and shove their content out the door and into the hands of fanboys who will buy ANYTHING with their favorite label on it. Or not. The debacles from Mass Effect 3 and other big-name titles are symptoms of another game crash looming on the horizon. Studios will continue to lose money on bad games as they struggle to shove unfinished content out the door in the hopes of just keeping the lights on.
Which brings us to the part I quoted. As consumers all of us have been retrained to just let things slide and put up with gradually decreasing quality in the products we buy. The games are all rehashed versions of the same thing (how many NEW titles have come out the past few years, instead of part 2, 3 or 4 of an existing franchise?) with often great graphics but an almost total lack of quality storytelling. In some cases these are business decisions (like Zenimax and their handling of the Elder Scroll Online issues) but in too many cases it's simple laziness on the part of the creators.
I grew up on comics and for me the story is what keeps me coming back. Sure, I'll get lured in by the cool name, flashy costume and epic battles the same as everybody else but all of that gets old after a while. I can't throw my support behind a project that will turn into one long epic string of Michael Bay films. I need STORY, real, entertaining, gripping stories or else I'll lose interest.
As consumers we NEED to insist that our products have quality. As gamers we need to demand that our games be entertaining, not just playable. As fans it's our duty to make sure that the Devs are WELL aware of what we expect. If we don't and the game isn't what we want then the fault is as much ours as it is theirs.
I'm not concerned about any of this with CoT mainly because the people working on the project ARE gamers, the same fans we used to play with when our beloved game was still running. Their concerns are our concerns...their visions are (at least similar to) our visions.
Never compromise...hold to what you believe in. If we don't maintain the standard who will?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Oh, I'm not waiting that long. Dibs on the mixing bowl and spoon!
Spurn all ye kindle.
I'll just eat the powdered mix!
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
Rats! You win.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I'll just eat the base compounds that comprise said mix.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
Guess that leaves me as the designated driver taking all y'all to the hospital.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Good to know someone's looking after us!
Spurn all ye kindle.
Heh, if eating powdered mix was an issue, I wouldn't have made it to my teens.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
Let's just say that I am not going to make the assumption that warcabbit's metaphorical pudding is harmless, or even edible. After all, he did conveniently fail to state what this pudding is supposed to prove.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!