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Ancillary Power Sets

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Gluke
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Ancillary Power Sets

What are the plans for ancillary power sets/patron powers, such as we got in CoH? One thought that occurs to me would be to use ancillary pools to provide very specific MA styles, such as mentioned below:

Gluke wrote:
LeadWanderer wrote:

Can we please get more than generic martial arts animations? I mean, I love martial arts, the set in CoH was great! But I would greatly appreciate it if we all didn't have to be generic kung-fu guy #923b. There are DOZENS of martial art forms to use as example for what a given move could be modeled after, Taichi, Taekwondo, hung ga, Karate, Wing Chun, etc. Not to mention the plethora of sub styles. I'm not saying we need to have every style there, but it would be very pleasing to have move examples that either generically cover enough strikes that any style could be formed out of a set.

THIS, please, in abundance, this. I think this would be my first choice of power set priorities, it would be essential in the long run. I'd like to use Praying Mantis Fist, Eagle Claw Fist, Muay Thai and Drunken Box with different characters (which also leads to another question, but I'll make a separate thread for that).

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Lothic
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I think what we need to keep

I think what we need to keep in mind here is that CoT will supposedly be far more geared towards "power customization" than CoH managed to be. What this means is that we might not need to have a specifically hardwired Taekwondo ancillary powerset when we might instead be able to use a generic "martial arts" powerset with player selectable Taekwondo animation customizations. See the difference there?

The question then becomes just how generic the actual powersets will be (in terms of in-game numbers/stats) and just how customizable they will be (in terms of how they'll look). Using martial arts as an example we may start the game with just a few animation style choices but as time goes on get more options as they are added to the game.

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Empyrean
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I think what we need to keep in mind here is that CoT will supposedly be far more geared towards "power customization" than CoH managed to be. What this means is that we might not need to have a specifically hardwired Taekwondo ancillary powerset when we might instead be able to use a generic "martial arts" powerset with player selectable Taekwondo animation customizations. See the difference there?
The question then becomes just how generic the actual powersets will be (in terms of in-game numbers/stats) and just how customizable they will be (in terms of how they'll look). Using martial arts as an example we may start the game with just a few animation style choices but as time goes on get more options as they are added to the game.

I would also think that this would be more practical and beneficial for the development of the game. Instead of tens of powersets with different mechanics, one powerset that represents hand to had combat that you can "flavor" any way you want with animations. Adding style choices seems like it would be much easier than adding new powers.

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Doctor Tyche
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Would not even need to be

Would not even need to be "Martial Arts" but "Fast Attack" which then has a martial arts theme, a bo stick theme, a baton theme....

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Would not even need to be "Martial Arts" but "Fast Attack" which then has a martial arts theme, a bo stick theme, a baton theme....

ooo...basic hand to hand combat and then you choose the animation you want AND you can include weapons if you want?? man...that sounds nice, assuming I am reading that right...LOL if it is, then it would answer the question about folks requesting being able to make attacks "without" weapons...

which makes me think there are no weapon sets...just a base power which is then modified via animation...I suspect/hope that one can also make the initial determination on whether the attack is physical or energy based. if energy, then we get a selection of energy types (fire, cold, electrical, psychic, etc)

this in turn could be applied pretty much to the ranged attacks as well.

given this, we are looking at no power sets at all....just basics that we as players get to set up according to our tastes...
Example:
Attack Type: Hand to Hand -->Damage Type: Physical -->Damage Subtype: Lethal -->Animation: Longsword
Attack Type: Hand to Hand -->Damage Type: Energy -->Damage Subtype: Electrical -->Animation: Karate Punch

of course this is all assuming I am on the right track...but still....if I am, makes options for the players OUTSTANDING when making characters.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Would not even need to be "Martial Arts" but "Fast Attack" which then has a martial arts theme, a bo stick theme, a baton theme....

And "Heavy Attack" could be energy melee, brawling, street fighting... something like that

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whiteperegrine wrote:
whiteperegrine wrote:

given this, we are looking at no power sets at all....just basics that we as players get to set up according to our tastes...

For the purposes of overall balance I figure we'll still need powersets, but the powersets will be much more generically defined.

For instance there will probably be broad categorical powersets like a "fast melee attack" powerset, a "heavy melee attack" powerset, a "physical ranged attack" powerset, an "energy ranged attack" powerset, a "crowd control" powerset and so on. From there each individual power would be like "light attack", "medium attack", "heavy attack", "AoE cone attack", "nova attack" and so on. At that point you'll link the appropriate animations to each of those powers.

Again it would still be important to have established powersets each with a specific mix of powers because without that you'd have the anarchy of a full freeform system which (based on numerous past forum threads) is generally accepted to be a very bad idea for games like this. But with the freedom of getting to choose from many different animation possibilities we'll get the "look and feel" of a freeform system without all of its inherent disadvantages.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Would not even need to be "Martial Arts" but "Fast Attack" which then has a martial arts theme, a bo stick theme, a baton theme....

You just made several people swoon *happydance*

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Tannim222
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Power Sets in general all

Power Sets in general all have a frame work from which to build on. Each Framework can then be specified for desired over-all attack speed types - such as a a fast attack set, slow attack set, and a standard attack set (fair mix of slow and fast). This does not mean that a fast attack set won't end up with an attack that falls into the realm of the "slow attack set" or that the "slow attack set" won't have attacks that can end up falling within the realm of "fast" - only that the individual set's speeds will be more focused in that direction.

What Dr. Tyche described is the basis from which we started but not necessarily the end result. Some sets are distinctive - like Burning Blast consists of all the things that can be "burning". A Super Strength set won't be called "heavy attack set" because, one it almost ends up sounding rather lame and two, its too open to interpretation.

Ancilliary sets are actually called Tertiary Power Sets. They are derived from the Primary Power Sets, just not as effective as a Primary and with fewer powers, but will be as customizable. There are no 'paton' powers because character's aren't beholden to the NPCs, your character is meant to be equal to or better than the NPCs of the game. And really, since the Tertiary Sets are so versatile - providing anything from protection powers, to ranged blasts, controls, buffs and so on, a player could cobble together their own mix of Tertiary Powers to flesh out their character concept.


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Lothic
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Power Sets in general all have a frame work from which to build on. Each Framework can then be specified for desired over-all attack speed types - such as a a fast attack set, slow attack set, and a standard attack set (fair mix of slow and fast). This does not mean that a fast attack set won't end up with an attack that falls into the realm of the "slow attack set" or that the "slow attack set" won't have attacks that can end up falling within the realm of "fast" - only that the individual set's speeds will be more focused in that direction.
What Dr. Tyche described is the basis from which we started but not necessarily the end result. Some sets are distinctive - like Burning Blast consists of all the things that can be "burning". A Super Strength set won't be called "heavy attack set" because, one it almost ends up sounding rather lame and two, its too open to interpretation.
Ancilliary sets are actually called Tertiary Power Sets. They are derived from the Primary Power Sets, just not as effective as a Primary and with fewer powers, but will be as customizable. There are no 'paton' powers because character's aren't beholden to the NPCs, your character is meant to be equal to or better than the NPCs of the game. And really, since the Tertiary Sets are so versatile - providing anything from protection powers, to ranged blasts, controls, buffs and so on, a player could cobble together their own mix of Tertiary Powers to flesh out their character concept.

This is more or less what I was suspecting and trying to explain in my earlier posts. I'll grant you that the names/labels of these things will be whatever you guys come up with so I'm not going to bother to quibble that my names/labels are any better or worse than the terms you're going to use. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

whiteperegrine
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Power Sets in general all have a frame work from which to build on. Each Framework can then be specified for desired over-all attack speed types - such as a a fast attack set, slow attack set, and a standard attack set (fair mix of slow and fast). This does not mean that a fast attack set won't end up with an attack that falls into the realm of the "slow attack set" or that the "slow attack set" won't have attacks that can end up falling within the realm of "fast" - only that the individual set's speeds will be more focused in that direction.
What Dr. Tyche described is the basis from which we started but not necessarily the end result. Some sets are distinctive - like Burning Blast consists of all the things that can be "burning". A Super Strength set won't be called "heavy attack set" because, one it almost ends up sounding rather lame and two, its too open to interpretation.
Ancilliary sets are actually called Tertiary Power Sets. They are derived from the Primary Power Sets, just not as effective as a Primary and with fewer powers, but will be as customizable. There are no 'paton' powers because character's aren't beholden to the NPCs, your character is meant to be equal to or better than the NPCs of the game. And really, since the Tertiary Sets are so versatile - providing anything from protection powers, to ranged blasts, controls, buffs and so on, a player could cobble together their own mix of Tertiary Powers to flesh out their character concept.

"No powersets" comment I made was more in reference to not having specific powersets but using something very generic as a starting point and building from there...like "Hand to Hand". not that it would be a freeform system. my example was really two example side by side. I also took generic powersets to the extreme. what I didn't display was the SPEED aspect as I figure it would be a part of the generic powerset as one progressed through it. given Tannim's post though, it 'appears' that we will have an over all attack speed option when setting up powers?

Tannim222
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No the attack speed is part

No the attack speed is part of the frame work of power set design. Some sets will use faster, lighter damaging attacks, others slower, heavier attacks, or a mix of them (all relatively speaking of course). The powers themselves are 'set up' already. The player end is all about choosing which sets they want, which powers at particular levels, customizing them and then of course placing sockets / augments / refinements.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

No the attack speed is part of the frame work of power set design. Some sets will use faster, lighter damaging attacks, others slower, heavier attacks, or a mix of them (all relatively speaking of course). The powers themselves are 'set up' already. The player end is all about choosing which sets they want, which powers at particular levels, customizing them and then of course placing sockets / augments / refinements.

I cannot express how badly I want this. Naowuh!

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Devs: Thank you for

Devs: Thank you for clarifying the paradigm of the powersets. People may be used to seeing the powerset fully defined for them as in CoH and CO and DCUO but I for one REALLY appreciate being able to have the exact same set as the person next to me and still feel like its custom to ME.

CoT is doing something new and frankly it gets me geek'd. Keep thinking forward

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So... ex:

So, are you suggesting there could be swapping of Power Animations that arent Exactly the same animation length?
Just as long as the Totals meet the Dev Baseline for effect?
ex:

Someday, I would like if this was possible, but the Math might not give balanced results.

If only there was a Formula that took into account Animation time, Defense, Damage, Status Effect, etc...

ex: You pass in the Damage you want, and it returns Exactly how much of everything ELSE you can have! ;)

Of Course, there would be a Min and a Max for each effect, for each Archetype. :)

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

So, are you suggesting there could be swapping of Power Animations that arent Exactly the same animation length?
Just as long as the Totals meet the Dev Baseline for effect?
ex:
Someday, I would like if this was possible, but the Math might not give balanced results.
If only there was a Formula that took into account Animation time, Defense, Damage, Status Effect, etc...
ex: You pass in the Damage you want, and it returns Exactly how much of everything ELSE you can have! ;)
Of Course, there would be a Min and a Max for each effect, for each Archetype. :)

I think a working assumption would be that if the game gave you the choice of animation A, B or C for a power X that all three of those choices would be timed correctly for that power. If you wanted animation A for power Y it's conceivable that the version of animation A for power Y might not be 100% pixel-for-pixel identical to the version that fit for Power X but rather a close approximation. I could probably live with that if that were the case.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Izzy wrote:
So, are you suggesting there could be swapping of Power Animations that arent Exactly the same animation length?
Just as long as the Totals meet the Dev Baseline for effect?
ex:
Someday, I would like if this was possible, but the Math might not give balanced results.
If only there was a Formula that took into account Animation time, Defense, Damage, Status Effect, etc...
ex: You pass in the Damage you want, and it returns Exactly how much of everything ELSE you can have! ;)
Of Course, there would be a Min and a Max for each effect, for each Archetype. :)

I think a working assumption would be that if the game gave you the choice of animation A, B or C for a power X that all three of those choices would be timed correctly for that power. If you wanted animation A for power Y it's conceivable that the version of animation A for power Y might not be 100% pixel-for-pixel identical to the version that fit for Power X but rather a close approximation. I could probably live with that if that were the case.

Unreal has the ability to adjust the animation playback speed, FYI. Means you don't need the animation to be time-perfect.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Unreal has the ability to adjust the animation playback speed, FYI. Means you don't need the animation to be time-perfect.

That seems to solve that. Since the casting times of many of these powers only differ from each other by small fractions of a second I'll bet you can often make small speed adjustments that are hardly even noticeable to the human eye unless you held them up side-by-side.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

That seems to solve that. Since the casting times of many of these powers only differ from each other by small fractions of a second I'll bet you can often make small speed adjustments that are hardly even noticeable to the human eye unless you held them up side-by-side.

Not only that, but the speed not always being perfectly uniform will subtly add to the naturalness of the feel. Cause, you know, people are never perfectly uniform in anything. Nor any organic life, for that matter. I guess those who play robots, synthezoids, or certain non-organic aliens might see it as a negative :P.

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People who play everyone's

People who play everyone's favorite game to hate on ... Spreadsheet Analysis ... will notice.

Fortunately, I anticipate the "reality" of actual gameplay to be something more complex than simple spreadsheet analysis can completely compute in advance.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

People who play everyone's favorite game to hate on ... Spreadsheet Analysis ... will notice.
Fortunately, I anticipate the "reality" of actual gameplay to be something more complex than simple spreadsheet analysis can completely compute in advance.

what!?! lies!

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Will they only be culled from

Will they only be culled from primary/secondary Is there any chance that a power set may exist solely as a tertiary? I won't be disappointed either way, just more of a curiosity.

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

Will they only be culled from primary/secondary Is there any chance that a power set may exist solely as a tertiary? I won't be disappointed either way, just more of a curiosity.

Yes, there will be unique Tertiary Sets, though not many because of the nature of power customization, one Tertiary can be used for a viarity of themes. One such set is the Combat Mobility Tertiary utilizing lunge-style attacks and other powers that actually move your character with various travel-power themed animations (as oppossed to normal attacks using travel theme animations that appear to make the character move but returns them to their original position).

Another point to keep in mind, there are no restrictions. An Enforcer can pick up more melee attacks, ranged attacks, controls, debuffs, and so on. The only Primary in which we are uncertain of working properly as a Tertiary are Summons Sets (the pets for Operators). This is due to the complex nature of the Summons sets and pet design making sure each type of summoned pet is a viable choice for a Tertiary requires a lot of time to test out which of course would be after we have implemented the Summon Sets as a Primary.

It also may not be necessary to use Manipulation or Assault sets since they more or less combined powers from other sets, making them into a Tertiary may be redundant since players could pick and choose those same powers from other Tertiary Sets in the first place.


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If you people make an

If you people make an animation for that so it looks like I'm leaping into enemy groups like a barbarian I would be very pleased. Bonus points if I can add an AoE or AoE stun effect..

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It would be cool to see a

It would be cool to see a martial art/animation style like Ty Lee uses to block powers.
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