Tannim222 wrote:

Ok, I rather like the direction this went to. Allow me to posit a concept for you all based on what has been discussed. Keep in mind this is, for now, only 'talk' and nothing is guaranteed.
At level cap (50), a player may choose to designate xp toward taking an existing power and adding Epic effects turning it into a Signature Power.
Diverted xp allows a player to designate any power of their character to receive (a) Signature Power Socket(s). Into which once earned, Signature Power Augments may be placed.
Signature Power Augments will provid an Epic Effect; an effect produced based on conditions met through use of Mastery Powers. As there are a num er of posible combinations of Mastery Powers, there may be one or more set of consitions as well as different selectable SPAs with different Epic Effects which may require further investment through diverted xp to improve the SPA.
Upon the consitions being met, once the power is activated (or if already active such as toggles or passives), the Epic Effect is triggered. Once triggered the Epic Effect has its own unique cool down separate from the basr power's cool down.

I am also curious what other uses for XP there might be at the level cap.

Very glad to see ideas generated here are being considered for use in the system.

For conditions on epic effect activation, I was further thinking that multiple conditions could be created for each mastery. Indeed, this might be necessary in that some conditions may or may not be appropriate for different types of powers (AoE's, ST, buffs, summons, etc.)

Edit: Also meant to add here that if it is determined conditions vary in difficulty to achieve, they could come with a modifier to the cooldown time.

I also considered that if some form of vertical progression is desired, it may be possible to earn additional epic effect charges. If for example a character has earned and slotted 2 Signature Augments, 1 with a cooldown of 1 minute and 1 with a cooldown of 5 minutes, and has earned 2 epic effect charges, the following may occur:

The character activates the 1-minute-cooldown effect. 10 seconds later, he has a chance to activation the 1-minute cooldown effect again and does so. Both charges are now on cooldown, so no epic effects may be used until 50 seconds later when the first cooldown is up and 1 epic effect charge is now available. Suppose the character immediately activates the 5-minute-cooldown effect at that time. No charges will be available for 10 more seconds, at which point there will be 1 charge available for either effect. Assuming he uses no more epic effects, both charges will again be available in 4 minutes 50 seconds, when the 5-minute cooldown expires.

Darth Fez wrote:

What other options might there be toward which to put XP at the level cap?
I haven't followed this thread closely so I may well have missed that part.

At this point in development, none. I previously stated that the system we designed to allow for horizontal or vertical progression methods and that there are pros and cons to each. My personal preference being horizontal progression, but I'm not the sole decider for these types of things and there are others on our team which have expressed interest in vertical progression.

I used the phrase 'diverted xp' because of my own bias in this matter, but truthfully I probably should have avoided stating it this way as it could easily be part of a vertical progression system.

Radiac wrote:

Could there be signature power augment related missions/content to do to get those augments maybe? I know players are always hungry for more content, but that might be a good idea. Not that you'd have to do any one type of content to get the XP, just that there might be post-cap content that would get you XP and maybe have a chance (or a better chance than normal) to get the components and raw materials needed to make such objects as you'd then want.
Of course, any discussion like this also leads to "will any of the possible Signature Power options end up being totally OP when slotted with the right Augments and Epic effects? You'd need to keep an eye on that.

Radiac wrote:

I still like the idea of a crafting system that causes you to gain progress toward making a thing as you earn XP out in the more "heroic" parts of the game. The idea being that your NPC friends will make the thing for oyu, but need time to complete it, and as you earn XP while they do their thing, your item is built. While it's true that XP and time are not the smae thing, I'd rather have the ability to force my projects to go faster by doing missions etc than just have to wait a set period of time with no way of shortening it and nothing encouraging me to "Go. Hunt. Kil Skulz."

I did not bring up any details regarding additional content requirements because it is a bit of putting the cart before the horse. At this juncture, just exploring the concept of "What is or should be a signature power for CoT?"
Could there be additional content? Certainly, but at this point, it isn't necessary to mandate that there must be.

As to crafting of said Signature Power Augments, I also avoided such as I don't envision this to be something specifically tied to the main crafting system. Can it be? Yes. But in considering the concept of being able to invest your time and earned "xp" as if it were going into developing one of your powers to gain this epic effect in connection with your Mastery Power(s), it is, in essence already being 'made'. There may be a starting point for where not only do you divert "xp" into a SPAug Socket, but into earning the SPAug itself, and then upgrading that SPA along one or more paths.

There could also be multiple SPA sockets earned to which different types of SPAugs can be socketed, each with different Epic Effects which require different conditions. But that may be going too far at the moment.

The important part, at this juncture, is to pin down what the Signature Power is.

Huckleberry wrote:

I'm having a hard time understanding this part:
Tannim222 wrote:
Signature Power Augments will provid[e] an Epic Effect; an effect produced based on conditions met through use of Mastery Powers. As there are a num[b]er of po[s]sible combinations of Mastery Powers, there may be one or more set of con[d]itions as well as different selectable SPAs with different Epic Effects which may require further investment through diverted xp to improve the SPA.
I think your knowledge of the game exceeds ours and I think you're assuming we know more about masteries than we do. You also use the term "Mastery Powers" which confuses me.
For reference, this is the Primer on Masteries.
From this I understand that masteries passively affect our existing powers, so how does a set of conditions get met through use of Mastery Powers? Are you referring to the concept Pyromantic put forward such that there are triggers related to the theme of the masteries? Or are there actually Mastery Powers? If so, what are Mastery Powers compared to what was put forth in the link above?
If you are referring to triggers as put forth by Pyromantic, let me see if I understand by attempting to use the example you used in the Masteries Primer:
Quote:
Surprise Strike: You gain bonuses for attacks against unsuspecting targets.
So if a character with Surprise Strike attacks an unsuspecting target, would that be a trigger effect that contributes towards the "conditions met" and proc the Epic Signature power effect? Would the character need to have his or her SPAs socketed in the ability used for the surprise attack for the effect to proc?
Is that about right?

Mastery Powers are powers, but none of them require any acitvation. In that sense they are passive, but some themsevles may not take effect until their own set of conditions are met.

With regard to the idea of the Epic Effect connected to a Mastery Power, yes, the Mastery Power's conditions would need to be met but it could be that the Epic Effect requires, using your example a number of Surprise Strikes to occur. Or it may be that Momentum is needed. Or it may be another set of conditions are required depending on the type of Mastery. I intentionally was vague in that part of the description because of the number of differetn Mastery Powers and combinations of selections.

Tannim222 wrote:

Ok, I rather like the direction this went to. Allow me to posit a concept for you all based on what has been discussed. Keep in mind this is, for now, only 'talk' and nothing is guaranteed.
At level cap (50), a player may choose to designate xp toward taking an existing power and adding Epic effects turning it into a Signature Power.
Diverted xp allows a player to designate any power of their character to receive (a) Signature Power Socket(s). Into which once earned, Signature Power Augments may be placed.
Signature Power Augments will provid an Epic Effect; an effect produced based on conditions met through use of Mastery Powers. As there are a num er of posible combinations of Mastery Powers, there may be one or more set of consitions as well as different selectable SPAs with different Epic Effects which may require further investment through diverted xp to improve the SPA.
Upon the consitions being met, once the power is activated (or if already active such as toggles or passives), the Epic Effect is triggered. Once triggered the Epic Effect has its own unique cool down separate from the basr power's cool down.

I like this a lot.
By allowing us to choose which of our powers becomes our signature it really broadens the possibilities of how to make our hero unique!
Also, after spending 50 levels getting to know their toon, everyone should have a pretty good handle on what their go-to power is.

In this scenario, I'm guessing that once we're at level cap we would continue to earn XP but every time we ding, instead of gaining a level, we'd get a point to apply toward our SP (similar to STO's specialization system)?

To clarify, I didn't mean to suggest toggles and passives should be excluded from consideration for Signature Augments. Only that if effects are associated with those powers then it should still generally require an active choice on the part of the player to trigger them. Perhaps an epic effect window that allows you to select a power with an epic effect available to trigger? I'm sure people who know more about UI development than I would work that part out.

Interesting. I mentioned Signature Augments earlier in the thread and I think I generally prefer that to separate powers as a way to achieve a "Signature Power" effect, for two reasons I suppose. One is that I'm assuming characters won't have a pressing need to add more powers to their repertoire at end levels. The other is that I like the idea of characters being able to turn powers they've been using since the relatively early levels--which likely represent their core gameplay experience through levelling--into their Signature Powers as well as powers they developed later.

My thinking on activation conditions was that the idea of momentum from earlier in the thread seemed to make sense, but only for a few Masteries. Since momentum is essentially a condition for activation, it occurred that there might be a variety of suitable conditions for different Masteries, and that this would be a way to make the epic power effects feel like a new but familiar mechanic, and to have a character's build significantly inform the way epic effects played out for them (avoiding the "samey" feel to epics alluded to earlier in the thread.)

I'm curious then if there's a particular direction we can take the discussion from here to help flesh out the idea further?

The way I see [i]Signature Power Augments (SPA)[/i] is a finite set of augments. After we reach lvl 50 we go through a series of missions in a special arc with some master, perhaps one of the Iconic NPCs who helps us train. After each training mission we unlock one SPA until we have the five or six signature power augments that we can call our own. What their nature is and into which abilities we place them is up to us, and is related to our masteries. If we ever want to change them, we would need to retrain (i.e. run that mission arc again).

TitansCity wrote:

Does epic power should be as often usable as you describes ? 1 min or 5 min cooldown is, on my opinion, really short.
If this is Epic, i think it like momentum. Not usable as often as we would like. If this is Epic, it took time to controle it, to learn it and i think it should be hard to use.
I know that we are taking about a signature power, but is it a "standard" power/usual power or a really not usal power for freezie"s power set ?
What Tanim said is great :) another tiny power set to gain.
I like the way to use it with certain conditions and a cooldown.
I just hope that it will ne be a after lvl 50 content just to make people occupied :)

Well, one of the things I like about this system is that the epic cooldown is variable, so less dramatic powers can have a shorter cooldown, where as bigger effects have a longer one.

Keep in mind that 5 minutes--even 1 minute--is actually a pretty long time in context, especially as it may not be possible to reduce this cooldown. To use City of Heroes as a basis, blaster nukes had a recharge time of 6 minutes that could be reduced through enhancements, and it was planned to be reduced in issue 24. Judgement Incarnate powers were 90 seconds.

A 5 minute cooldown that also requires you to meet certain conditions to activate would likely be used once or twice on a typical mission. But specifics like that I'm sure would be worked out by those responsible for balance way down the line.

Tannim222 wrote:

We can set these epic effects to be unaffected by the base power's cool down reduction or even global cool down reduction.
We can even stupilate multiple conditions if we need to such as target is affected by Sneak Attack and caster has x% Momentum and still give the effect its own individual cool down. Basically, we have plenty of dials to turn and switches to flip to help find that sweet spot of not too often and takes forever.

I like the flexibility you have, but It should not require the player to perform advanced calculus to know when his power will proc. So I would caution against putting too many switches on any proc.

And I would want to avoid random procs as well. The players will want to control when to use their epic powers. Their use should not be a surprise. So even if it is not random; if the triggering criteria are so byzantine that the player can't keep track of all the prerequisites, it may as well be random.

Edit: An exception, because there should always be an exception: If the power is associated with chance, like [url=http://www.dofus.com/en/mmorpg/encyclopedia/classes/6-ecaflip]Ecaflips from Dofus[/url], then a random proc would be in keeping with the power theme. But I highly doubt anything like that would be in this game. It would be cool, but not in keeping with Classifications and Specifications... maybe a tertiary or maybe its own signature power associated with gambling and chance?

If it turns out that players select from options on meeting an activation condition for a particular effect based on their Masteries, then I think including some randomness would be fine, especially if that Mastery has some impact on that randomness by design.

For example, if critical controls by a Commander are a random effect and a Commander character has a Magnitude Mastery Power that increases that chance, then an activation condition that requires a critical control to land would be fine IMO. The player intentionally took a Mastery that modifies a random effect and so it is appropriate. The player also has an opportunity to focus on using fast-activating control powers or those with a higher chance to land critically to increase their chance to activate the epic effect.

notears wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Ok, I rather like the direction this went to. Allow me to posit a concept for you all based on what has been discussed. Keep in mind this is, for now, only 'talk' and nothing is guaranteed.
At level cap (50), a player may choose to designate xp toward taking an existing power and adding Epic effects turning it into a Signature Power.
Diverted xp allows a player to designate any power of their character to receive (a) Signature Power Socket(s). Into which once earned, Signature Power Augments may be placed.
Signature Power Augments will provid an Epic Effect; an effect produced based on conditions met through use of Mastery Powers. As there are a num er of posible combinations of Mastery Powers, there may be one or more set of consitions as well as different selectable SPAs with different Epic Effects which may require further investment through diverted xp to improve the SPA.
Upon the consitions being met, once the power is activated (or if already active such as toggles or passives), the Epic Effect is triggered. Once triggered the Epic Effect has its own unique cool down separate from the basr power's cool down.
You know what? I actually like this!! Hope it gets into the final version of the game, especially since you don't have to give up such a core ability as your mastery to get it. You can just choose what you want race toward after reaching the level cap. Could also be awesome if there where other options you could switch between... maybe something like the incarnate system?

QFE.

QFE = quoted for emphasis. Essentially it means "I agree", but without all those messy extra letters to type.

Pyromantic wrote:

If it turns out that players select from options on meeting an activation condition for a particular effect based on their Masteries, then I think including some randomness would be fine, especially if that Mastery has some impact on that randomness by design.
For example, if critical controls by a Commander are a random effect and a Commander character has a Magnitude Mastery Power that increases that chance, then an activation condition that requires a critical control to land would be fine IMO. The player intentionally took a Mastery that modifies a random effect and so it is appropriate. The player also has an opportunity to focus on using fast-activating control powers or those with a higher chance to land critically to increase their chance to activate the epic effect.

You're not talking a bout a random proc, you're talking about a known, willfully executed ability the effect of which is to increase a random occurrence. Those are two different things.

Of course, if the random occurrence doesn't occur while the epic power is in effect, then I think the player will say it was a complete waste. So if I had Magnitude Mastery to increase my party's critical hits, I think it would make far more sense from a game design perspective that the epic power associated with it would be something like a guarantee that the next ability use by each member of the party will be a critical successs. That would apply to heals, controls and other actions, not just attacks.

I think Magical Red Crowbar (MRC) was implying that you must meet a couple of conditions to use the SP. My understanding that using the mastery IE accomplishing a surprise strike builds up a SP meter. Once you fill this SP meter then the next time you use that surprise strike you can use the SP variant. When you can use the SP is somewhat random in that you may get to the last bad guy and still need to perform 3 surprise strikes to use the more key SP. There could be a couple of gating features like this, and they may not take the form of a master meter, (like MRC said this is all concept phase) all of which would be "controllable" (build momentum, build reserves, use the mastery effect) but decrease the chance of a player being able to start a mission and say, "I'm going to save my SP for the boss." The character would have to work and apply some skill to get these gates to line up to use the SP. To trigger it at a specific moment would take an exceptional amount of work and skill.

Or I could be totally out in left field playing with dandelions.

I like this take on SP because, it seems to be very similar to what I suggested earlier. At least as far the building of the SP, the use and activation are markedly different.

Tannim can you give me editing powers on your posts? I want to fix the typos. I'm almost positive you are using a cellphone or tablet keyboard most of the time. I just need to fix them.

No need, I'll follow you around the forums and fix them. It's okay, really. I just need to appropriate permissions.

blacke4dawn wrote:

The way I have read it is that those "procs" would only be pre-conditions for manual activation (since you could have the same SPA proc on several powers) of the SP enhanced version of a power, not an automatic cast.

That is how I understood it as well.
My post #107 was a caution against having the pre-conditions too complicated. I think Tannim already addressed that and agreed with the caution. But then the discussion went towards random procs and I felt the need to reinforce why I think random procs are bad.

Pyromantic wrote:

What I was referring to is the activating condition being based on a random occurrence. In particular, the landing of a critical control, assuming such a thing is even determined randomly in the first place.

Well I certainly didn't read that into your post #109, but now that you've pointed it out, I see that's what you did say. I had merely misread it. I think having a random occurrence being one of the conditions would certainly be okay so long as all it did was unlock an ability's use. So I'm with you there.

I like the idea that actually participating in the content is what unlocks the Epic Signature Power, not just waiting for a cooldown timer to run out.

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Ugh. Just the mention of procs irks me. I'm not for them at all, unless they're awesomely powerful, and if they were, the chances are so low that they might as well not exist therefore they shouldn't. #CircularLogicIsCircular

Then don't slot 'em.

Thanks for that Notears. I have read one of this update but i never noticed the first one ^^. Is this always the current spirit ? it's dated from 2013.
But it does answer just a part of my question. It will comes from a certain part choosen from a list of point and linked to an animation choosen from a list to.
It's not what i meant :)

Imagine, i want a signature power which is based on a wampyr idea. My signature power (my main character idea) is to sustain the energy from my ennemies. It's not a ray of something i need for that, but a flux from my foes to me, so as to "indicates" that i'm sicking their energy up.
Imagine; now, i'm a sorcerer. I'm specialise in the terrestrial magnetic forces. My character focused to used it's signature power, his style power. He quickly joins his hands to accumulate energy and then, placed them, palm on the floor. Suddenly, an area can be distinguish beneath the feets of my foes, troubling what we see like seeing through hot air and a energy wave burst out from the ground to the sky, knocking down my ennemies.

What i meant, is not to be able to put the origin of the signature power to a certain point belonging to my hit box (rifle, wand, bird, tail, or whatever), what i mean is if the power is a signature one, why not allowing people to "create" completely their own power. It probably utopian to imagine that i could have my hero joining his hands, kneeing and placing his hands on the floor to activate his power ; or even levitate and stretch his arms out to inhalate the life energy from a foe...
For me a signature power, is not really something about the number or the experrience to accumulate. It's something recognising from all if we see it.

NB : if i'm not understandable, i'm really sorry ^^ I will try to change my words in a correct langage.

TitansCity wrote:

What i meant, is not to be able to put the origin of the signature power to a certain point belonging to my hit box (rifle, wand, bird, tail, or whatever), what i mean is if the power is a signature one, why not allowing people to "create" completely their own power. It probably utopian to imagine that i could have my hero joining his hands, kneeing and placing his hands on the floor to activate his power ; or even levitate and stretch his arms out to inhalate the life energy from a foe...

What a tremendous idea!

I doubt something like this is in the plans for launch, but I think this would be awesome. Just like we're going to have a mission builder that uses a lot of the developers' tools with a more customer-friendly UI, why can't we have a powers builder too?

Before anyone states the obvious, that we will have a character customization that lets us apply animations and themes to our base powers, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a toolbox of various animation 'bits' and emotes and all sorts of used and unused animations that we as players can put together into our own sequence with our own effects to choose from.
There would have to be limitations on minimum animation length, when during the animation the powers actually execute, whether it will be a channelled power, an instant power or a time-to-cast power, and all the other possible combinations. We could even go so far as to give it a point system and have difference characteristics cost different points so as to balance the powers across all players.

Camelot Unchained is creating an ability builder into their game that is going to have some of these features, but it uses existing animations. @TitansCity takes that idea to 11 and adds custom animations too. I think that would be pretty cool.

TitansCity wrote:

Huckleberry wrote:

@TitansCity takes that idea to 11

What do you mean ? (i'm not talking about justin bieber's song ^^

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_to_eleven]This:[/url]
[youtube]KOO5S4vxi0o[/youtube]