Adding Story Lines Post-Launch

36 posts / 0 new
Last post
Dark Cleric
Dark Cleric's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 8 min ago
Joined: 05/14/2018 - 12:26
Adding Story Lines Post-Launch

So one of my complaints with a lot of MMO's, like WoW for example, is that as they add expansions and updates they don't add new low-level content. For a game like CoT where alts are so popular, I would love to see new low-level story lines and content along with the high-level releases. This would make creating and leveling an alt so much more enjoyable to not have to always run the exact same content x number of times. I really hope the team is planning this into post-launch, especially as they introduce new themes, cape-chaser groups, locations, etc.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

Cinnder
Cinnder's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 35 min ago
Gunterkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
I couldn't agree more. MWM

I couldn't agree more. MWM has already said they plan to add more Paths over the life of the game, so I take that as a hopeful sign.

Also, if CoT is really gonna be in the spirit of the old game, I'd certainly hope they would revive/repeat the practice of adding low-level content occasionally regardless of Paths.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Geveo
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 59 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/06/2014 - 17:37
Totally agree, and also echo

Totally agree, and also echo Cinnder's comment. All indications seem to be that MWM intends to grow the game at all levels, not just by "adding more at the end". Which totally makes sense, considering the "Alts are endgame" approach... or at least the "Alts are one -type- of endgame" approach, as they've repeatedly said.

Honestly, in CoH I never got tired of running the original low-level content again -- I guess I'm weird that way. But I also loved getting new options for low-level characters. And we did get some, over the course of the game, with various expansions.

In terms of Lore, at least, it seems like CoT is going to have tons of material to work with. Turning all that lore into playable missions will be a mountain of work, no doubt, but I don't think there's going to be any shortage of possibilities for low-level expansion.

Cyclops
Cyclops's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 10 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/10/2015 - 17:24
Agreed as well. COH starting

Agreed as well. COH starting content was so well known to me that I chose to grind with my alts, rather than kill time with the same old stories.

TheInternetJanitor
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 05/11/2018 - 06:00
I don't remember devs

I don't remember devs addressing this specifically, but why not have some of the future content releases be decoupled from specific levels? Creating content that is flexible and can scale means anyone can check it out at any time. One of the great things about CoX was that it did a great job of making players feel special powerful from the second they started.

Mechanically speaking, adding content that uses instancing and scales to the group means the same story can be told using any level of baddies for combat, so anyone can experience it. CoX made frequent use of this. Though missions themselves generally had levels associated with them the instances that were part of them scaled to a degree. This could be an extension of that. In essence this means that any added content would never be locked away as "endgame" or ignored because it was a newbie mission.

I'm not saying instance everything, open world stuff definitely has a place. My point is that, at some point in the future the locales and stories of the main game will be fleshed out. Resources can and should be spent making new zones and content, but resources spent on content that scales and largely uses instances could be very efficient. Instead of making one zone that only a few players will be able to see, perhaps a number of stories could be made in that time that anyone could see. Perhaps leaning on that a bit could be a great benefit to a small team with limited time and assets.

Also, not all missions need to be combat oriented. While that is obviously a big part of the game, a mission that is a puzzle, riddle, or scavenger hunt could be potentially playable at any level without needing to touch instancing and scaling at all. Having stories focusing mostly on intrigue and diplomacy work as well, though that requires exceptional writing.

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 8 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
Part of the reason why it is

Part of the reason why it is difficult to add content to lower levels and why it takes so much time is that you also don’t want a new player experience to be over whelming with too many options right out of the gate.

It can be difficult to remap level progression to existing content by adding new content to earlier parts.

One possibility that exists for us is our Paths system which we can add new paths over time. Remember we are starting with 4 for launch. As time goes on beyond launch, we will have the ability to add more. Which offers new leveling experiences for old players and gives new players a “rails on” experience to the game at the same time.

You also have to consider how choices made at early levels, your alignment, and faction reps you begin building can lead you to experience different pieces of content you didn’t have on the first or even several play throughs.

Add to this our eventual Schemes and Investigations where you can “craft” missions (this will be our version of newspaper missions and such).

Beyond that when we add user generated content which can be accessed within the game world (instead of going to a building and playing in a massive holodeck).

As time goes on there will be plenty to do for players both new and experienced.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
Darth Fez
Darth Fez's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 17 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/20/2013 - 07:53
Tutorials need not be set in

Tutorials need not be set in stone. By the same token, the new player experience shouldn't be overwhelming.

Games rarely, if ever, revamp the beginning player experience. When it does happen, as Cinnder has pointed out was the case with CoH, it's not necessarily for the better. As more content is added the tutorial experience can be extended, in the sense that key decision points can be highlighted and/or explained a little more than regular missions. Experienced players can certainly take advantage of UGC, but the early experience should always been seen through the lens of a first time player (whether the game has been live a month or ten years).

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

Support trap clowns for CoT!

ConundrumofFurballs
ConundrumofFurballs's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 1 min ago
Developerkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/05/2012 - 16:03
There will be some amount of

There will be some amount of low level content added post-launch. An arc here or there, a few missions added to tip contacts, things of that nature are definite. I cannot say how much, as we don't have any of that settled, but rest assured, that expansion content is not going to be restricted to level-cap and its extensions.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Conundrum of Furballs

Composition Team, Staff Writer

TheInternetJanitor
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 05/11/2018 - 06:00
That makes sense. If the

That makes sense. If the character creator is half as good as CoX people will want to make alts. Because of this (and because it is the first thing new players see too!) early stories are important. Even more so than high level stories if a time travel / ouroboros style feature to play old content is added. Then they can be used as high level stories despite being pitched to new players.

Cinnder
Cinnder's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 35 min ago
Gunterkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
ConundrumofFurballs wrote:
ConundrumofFurballs wrote:

There will be some amount of low level content added post-launch. An arc here or there, a few missions added to tip contacts, things of that nature are definite. I cannot say how much, as we don't have any of that settled, but rest assured, that expansion content is not going to be restricted to level-cap and its extensions.

Excellent -- that's just the sort of thing I was hoping for. Stuff like the mediporter arc that was added to the old game in the latter days. But we'll still be getting additional paths covering multiple levels as well, correct?

TheInternetJanitor wrote:

That makes sense. If the character creator is half as good as CoX people will want to make alts.

Not only that, but because MWM has stated that alting is one of the primary forms of endgame.

TheInternetJanitor wrote:

Even more so than high level stories if a time travel / ouroboros style feature to play old content is added. Then they can be used as high level stories despite being pitched to new players.

Oh yes, I definitely hope for that. Once that was added to the old game, it meant I was able to take my mains through every new arc that was added, no matter what level. Though if it's like the old game instead of the new content being used as high-level stories we would probably be auto-exemped down to the level of the arc, rather than the other way around. But maybe CoT will work differently.

Spurn all ye kindle.

TheInternetJanitor
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 05/11/2018 - 06:00
How an ouroboros-like

How an ouroboros-like solution works mechanically isn't as important as having it work. As long as whatever way it is implemented works well and solves the primary concern of players wanting to experience content regardless of level that is really what matters.

In theory the devs could have missions that scale to any level by default and are repeatable by default so that the whole game is automatically accessible. Then such a solution would not be necessary at all. I know people have raised concerns that higher level content is more complicated, but that comes down to the enemies and the tools available to the player. This happens naturally already, or at least it did in CoX. A low level player has relatively less abilities to manage, and lower level enemies have less complicated attacks.

WoW does this to a basic extent with dungeons by having alternate max level scaled versions of them and it works primarily because that game encourages players to reach that level relatively quickly (so they don't bother scaling it to every level, just the top level). Guild Wars 2 approaches this issue by having anyone that enters a certain area be set to the max level of that area, scaling the player instead of the content.

The issue has been recognized and solved before many times over, even in old CoX. While I hope for a more natural approach, any way to ensure the content creation team's hard work gets to shine as bright and often as it can is an important feature.

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 42 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
I've always thought that it

I've always thought that it would be wise to (slowly) over time keep adding new content set in already existing districts, which necessarily includes "older" low level districts. Basically, think of what it would have been like if new content kept getting added to Galaxy City or King's Row would have been like over the history of Paragon City. Heck, entire zones in City of Titans just got left behind and forgotten ... Perez Park, Boomtown, Faultline, The Sewers, The Abandoned Sewers, Crey's Folly ... and on and on.

Such content additions could roll out at a "trickle pace" rather than making a specific district a focus of each update for a huge content dump. Even something as simple as adding 1-2 missions for all available districts per update is something that would cumulatively, over the course of the game's lifetime, ADD UP ... without being an undue burden on any ONE patch update.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I've always thought that it would be wise to (slowly) over time keep adding new content set in already existing districts, which necessarily includes "older" low level districts. Basically, think of what it would have been like if new content kept getting added to Galaxy City or King's Row would have been like over the history of Paragon City. Heck, entire zones in City of Titans just got left behind and forgotten ... Perez Park, Boomtown, Faultline, The Sewers, The Abandoned Sewers, Crey's Folly ... and on and on.

Such content additions could roll out at a "trickle pace" rather than making a specific district a focus of each update for a huge content dump. Even something as simple as adding 1-2 missions for all available districts per update is something that would cumulatively, over the course of the game's lifetime, ADD UP ... without being an undue burden on any ONE patch update.

This is an interesting idea. I must admit once I got most of my "main" alts well towards the level cap in CoH there were probably times where it'd be months (or even years) between ever spending serious time in the lowest level zones. Even when leveling up new alts "normally" (as in not just sitting in someone's PL farm to make an instant level 50) I would usually join in on other's TFs or trials to quickly "bypass" the low level content enough that there was often pretty much no need to spend time doing "normal missions" in the low zones.

I guess one issue would be how to "advertise" the addition of new content in those lower level areas to older players. I suppose if this new content is only going to be geared for lower level characters that might not really be a problem - people will just stumble over the new content in a natural way.

Another facet to this is the possibility of having this new content be "level agnostic". What I mean by that is the possibility that the new content could be structured in such a way that it could be applicable to a wide range of character levels. For instance let's say a few years after launch MWM adds a hypothetical new mission arc to a "starter level" area as you suggest. Instead of that arc being geared ONLY for like levels 1-10 maybe it could be made generic enough that a higher level character could be temporarily "drawn back" to the area to complete a version of the mission that switches gears to be level appropriate. Basically I'm suggesting there ought to be the occasional reason why a high level character might legitimately want to go back to a low level area - it's not like Superman doesn't protect ALL of Metropolis.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 42 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I guess one issue would be how to "advertise" the addition of new content in those lower level areas to older players. I suppose if this new content is only going to be geared for lower level characters that might not really be a problem - people will just stumble over the new content in a natural way.

Flashback system.

If you have a system in the game that allows you to replay content ... wouldn't you want that system to tell you if/when you last ran a particular piece of content (and if you completed it)? That way, you've got a TO DO list that for the completionists who insist on doing EVERYTHING the game has to offer ... and you have a place to direct Players to in order to answer the question "Did I ever do that?" which gives unique and specific answers to THEIR character(s).

After that, it's just a matter of a Sort Feature to be able to put content you've never completed before at the top of the list.
As far as announcing the new content, patch notes can simply mention that new missions were added and can be accessed via the in-game Flashback system, thereby directing Players to decide these kinds of things for themselves (and where their individual priorities lie). That way, Players can choose to be "drawn" to the new content, rather than being "pushed" into needing or being obligated to do it.

Beyond that, it becomes Word Of Chat ... ^_~

The benefit of such a system is that it allows the Lore of the game world to accrete onto the various places in the game world over time, that way the "old haunts" don't ever really "die" for either veteran Players or newcomers. The world continues to get built as time passes.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I guess one issue would be how to "advertise" the addition of new content in those lower level areas to older players. I suppose if this new content is only going to be geared for lower level characters that might not really be a problem - people will just stumble over the new content in a natural way.

Flashback system.

If you have a system in the game that allows you to replay content ... wouldn't you want that system to tell you if/when you last ran a particular piece of content (and if you completed it)? That way, you've got a TO DO list that for the completionists who insist on doing EVERYTHING the game has to offer ... and you have a place to direct Players to in order to answer the question "Did I ever do that?" which gives unique and specific answers to THEIR character(s).

After that, it's just a matter of a Sort Feature to be able to put content you've never completed before at the top of the list.
As far as announcing the new content, patch notes can simply mention that new missions were added and can be accessed via the in-game Flashback system, thereby directing Players to decide these kinds of things for themselves (and where their individual priorities lie). That way, Players can choose to be "drawn" to the new content, rather than being "pushed" into needing or being obligated to do it.

Beyond that, it becomes Word Of Chat ... ^_~

The benefit of such a system is that it allows the Lore of the game world to accrete onto the various places in the game world over time, that way the "old haunts" don't ever really "die" for either veteran Players or newcomers. The world continues to get built as time passes.

If whatever passes for the "Flashback" system in CoT allows for a literal "list of stuff to complete for completionists" then that'd be simple enough.

But what do you think of the idea I implied where some of this "new content in the lower areas" could be effectively geared for higher level characters? It would actually make the "city" seem a bit more realistic to have content of "any" level be "any" where.

To be clear I understand as a MMORPG the game needs to stick to certain conventions such as preventing an average level 5 PC from being accidentally smashed by a level 50 NPC while street-sweeping. But I've never understood why you couldn't have high level mission content "safely tucked into" a lower level area if for no other reason than to force higher level players to have to occasionally travel to ALL parts of the city as the need arises. It always seemed a tad unrealistic in CoH to say all "low level characters" live on the east end of town and all "high level characters" live on the west end of town. People IRL are "mixed" together a little more uniformly than that - especially in big downtown metropolitan areas.

One hypothetical example for this is that you could have an instanced mission take place at a building in a low level zone. When you entered the mission it could be a "cookie-cutter" clone of the building and the surrounding city area but while in the mission all the normally low level MOBs are replaced by higher level appropriate ones. This would keep the lower level players "safe" from whatever the higher level players are doing while still giving people the sense that they've come back to the low level zone to defeat a unique high level threat.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

KnightMask
KnightMask's picture
Online
Last seen: 2 min 28 sec ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/25/2013 - 22:38
Perhaps a badge for

Perhaps a badge for completing missions could be implemented along with a flashback /unlevel gated system that would thus encourage going back to low level areas and playing new content.

TheInternetJanitor
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 05/11/2018 - 06:00
You could go further and have

You could go further and have all content be level independent from the start, or something similar. Guild wars 2 automatically shifts player levels that are higher than the range for a zone down to the max for that zone as one example.

If you're talking less about scaling and more about adding content they haven't seen to newbie zones, that is also a great idea, but why have max level baddies hanging out in a starter area when you can scale the player instead? Then you have zero chance of newbies getting flattened when they are just being introduced to the game. You could scale the content instead of the player as another approach, similar to the way CoH treated instances and outdoor giant monsters. If I remember right, instances would level scale to the group leader or person with the associated quest? They'd also scale based on the size of the group but that isn't relevant to this discussion.

Using some kind of scaling, however you want to do it, means you can draw higher level players to new "newbie" content and still have that content available for new players too. You completely avoid the problem of needing to place enemies in areas that don't fit the zone. Placing out of depth enemies like that is something that can absolutely be done sparingly, older games like EQ and WoW definitely did it. If those enemies are not normally present and only spawn in from a quest trigger that helps as well. The problem is that it is clunky and it limits how much you can add to a zone before it becomes difficult to play for the players that don't have other options.

Having scaling also means that the lower level players in an area are encouraged and naturally able to play with the higher levels, which is I think kind of skipped over in this discussion. This is a really good thing.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
TheInternetJanitor wrote:
TheInternetJanitor wrote:

You could go further and have all content be level independent from the start, or something similar. Guild wars 2 automatically shifts player levels that are higher than the range for a zone down to the max for that zone as one example.

If you're talking less about scaling and more about adding content they haven't seen to newbie zones, that is also a great idea, but why have max level baddies hanging out in a starter area when you can scale the player instead? Then you have zero chance of newbies getting flattened when they are just being introduced to the game. You could scale the content instead of the player as another approach, similar to the way CoH treated instances and outdoor giant monsters. If I remember right, instances would level scale to the group leader or person with the associated quest? They'd also scale based on the size of the group but that isn't relevant to this discussion.

Using some kind of scaling, however you want to do it, means you can draw higher level players to new "newbie" content and still have that content available for new players too. You completely avoid the problem of needing to place enemies in areas that don't fit the zone. Placing out of depth enemies like that is something that can absolutely be done sparingly, older games like EQ and WoW definitely did it. If those enemies are not normally present and only spawn in from a quest trigger that helps as well. The problem is that it is clunky and it limits how much you can add to a zone before it becomes difficult to play for the players that don't have other options.

Having scaling also means that the lower level players in an area are encouraged and naturally able to play with the higher levels, which is I think kind of skipped over in this discussion. This is a really good thing.

If this kind of "dynamic scaling" could be made flexible enough for CoT to handle "high level instanced missions in low level zones" then that'd be great. I'm sure something like that is "far easier said than done" but it's still something to consider.

Again my main point here was that CoT is going to be based on a "city" and there's no real reason why you can't have both low and high level "activities" happening with different players in the same general areas. When you're talking about a typical "fantasy MMO" you can sort of get away with designing it such that all the low level critters live in one place and all the high level critters live on the other side of the mountain or whatever. But when you're talking about a big metropolitan city it's just more "natural" for things to be mixed together.

Again I'm not suggesting that lower level characters ought to be subjected to the risk of getting smacked around by high level NPCs - I'm just saying the game ought to be able to handle characters of ANY level doing various things in the same general areas at the same time.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Cinnder
Cinnder's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 35 min ago
Gunterkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
The way the old game did it,

The way the old game did it, when using the flashback system players would be automatically level-scaled to the range for which the mission was designed. This is much easier for the devs (since player characters are designed to work at all levels) than trying to design missions that work for all levels. Tannim has explained why this is so elsewhere, but I can't find it right now. I think it has to do with the types of special powers higher-level mobs have, which changes the nature and difficulty of a mission. I'm not entirely sure what MWM's plans are on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was much like the way the old game worked.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

The way the old game did it, when using the flashback system players would be automatically level-scaled to the range for which the mission was designed. This is much easier for the devs (since player characters are designed to work at all levels) than trying to design missions that work for all levels. Tannim has explained why this is so elsewhere, but I can't find it right now. I think it has to do with the types of special powers higher-level mobs have, which changes the nature and difficulty of a mission. I'm not entirely sure what MWM's plans are on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was much like the way the old game worked.

Again if MWM plans to have a "Flashback system" for CoT that's similar to the way CoH did it then that'd be fine. I believe they've briefly talked about this subject on this forum before but I'm actually not entirely sure they settled on doing "flashback" exactly the same way CoH did it. Obviously time will tell how this kind of thing will work in CoT.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Dark Cleric
Dark Cleric's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 8 min ago
Joined: 05/14/2018 - 12:26
I really like the idea,

I really like the idea, Lothic, that you mentioned of having high-level stuff back in 'starter' zones or low-level zones. Of course, this might not be needed if they do the level scaling...but I feel like at higher levels there should be unique enemies, ones you wouldn't fight at low levels. I don't want to fight the same things from level 1 - 50. I feel like it would feel kind of bland if you could run the same mission as a level 1 or a level 50 and the only thing that changes is the npc level. I really hope that as your level rises so does the breadth of enemies you fight. I still hope that some missions scale with your level as that is probably needed...but I also hope that there are level specific missions that don't scale so they feel unique. Maybe an 'easy' way of doing this is where the mission is...if the entrance is in a place that any level can get to safely then maybe it should scale. And, obviously, if its in a place that low-levels can't get to safely then maybe it shouldn't scale?

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 8 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
In general content does not

In general content does not scale, it has a fixed level range.

Your Path missions do scalenwith your level. Testing will show well this works for high level players going into earlier Path missions works out. I have a sense that we will have to make adjustments to make this work. The concept requires that you not out level your Path missions in order to be able to complete the Path.

Regular content doesn’t have this requirement. We do plan on some sort of flashback system for the game, just not for launch.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 12 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
I would be pleased to have

I would be pleased to have ALL content scale (upward), so I could play it with my existing characters. I'm okay if I have to grind a little bit, to qualify for the next tier of content, so I don't want it all to scale down. Facing a Named AV at low level seems 'wrong' somehow.

Be Well!
Fireheart

TheInternetJanitor
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 05/11/2018 - 06:00
Having scaling work to

Having scaling work to encourage higher players to do lower content is definitely more exciting than the other way around. I think you have the right idea fireheart. As long as players can sidekick their group up to their level as in CoX we'll already have a way for people to experience higher content as long as one person "unlocks" it.

Ardrea
Ardrea's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 hours 52 min ago
Joined: 06/17/2018 - 08:06
Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I would be pleased to have ALL content scale (upward), so I could play it with my existing characters. I'm okay if I have to grind a little bit, to qualify for the next tier of content, so I don't want it all to scale down. Facing a Named AV at low level seems 'wrong' somehow.

I agree with this. However, I understand the dev's issues with scaling things appropriately.

I really like the general sentiment in some above posts where having high level and low level activities mixing together. When, in some other games, the zones are heavily level segregated, some of the zones can end up feeling empty, and it can take away with the feeling of community.

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 8 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
Ardrea wrote:
Ardrea wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I would be pleased to have ALL content scale (upward), so I could play it with my existing characters. I'm okay if I have to grind a little bit, to qualify for the next tier of content, so I don't want it all to scale down. Facing a Named AV at low level seems 'wrong' somehow.

I agree with this. However, I understand the dev's issues with scaling things appropriately.

I really like the general sentiment in some above posts where having high level and low level activities mixing together. When, in some other games, the zones are heavily level segregated, some of the zones can end up feeling empty, and it can take away with the feeling of community.

This is one of the main draws for creating area-based events where the event is scaled to each players’ level.

One of the things I’d like to do for events - and this is not a promise - is to create a form of group: Event Group. When anyone is involved in a localized event they are all automatically considered all “part of a group”. This way the event encounter is scaled to each individual players’ level, rewards are shared, and everyone can easily participate.

Of course there are some edge cases where this can be misused and we would have to include some form of participation metrics based on the character’s level (and possibly Archetype / Specification) so we can reduce those cases.

But also don’t forget that we don’t have different servers but a single mega-server. The server will create separate maps based on map population. This should (hopefully) reduce the sense of low population in certain areas.

We will still need to have events which low level and high level players can access at the same time. And occasional other reasons content access to draw higher level players back to lower level areas every once in a while.

I’m certain that player hosted events (such as costume contests) will also bring high and low level players together. And with the mega-server structure a contest behing held can reach a wide audience.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
TheInternetJanitor
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 05/11/2018 - 06:00
Automatic event groups are a

Automatic event groups are a great idea. I'm not sure what game started the public quest thing (I think it was warhammer age of reckoning?) but public zone events that are easy to join in and where everyone can get at least some rewards for participating are fantastic.

They don't have to be super rare special events.

Riptide
Riptide's picture
Offline
Last seen: 20 hours 14 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 07:01
Can you tell us how many

Can you tell us how many people you plan to let congregate before an area is considered full and a new zone needs to be created or is it yet to be determined during stress testing?

Cinnder
Cinnder's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 35 min ago
Gunterkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

One of the things I’d like to do for events - and this is not a promise - is to create a form of group: Event Group. When anyone is involved in a localized event they are all automatically considered all “part of a group”. This way the event encounter is scaled to each individual players’ level, rewards are shared, and everyone can easily participate.

Ooh I like this idea. I remember in the old game when there was a Giant Monster or similar event, sometimes teams would have been happy to take on an additional player, but they were already at max. So if you were the x/8+1 player to the event, you were out of luck being able to get in enough damage to count for reward unless more folks turned up and you could form your own team.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Tranquil Flower
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 4 hours ago
Joined: 08/16/2017 - 08:53
Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

One of the things I’d like to do for events - and this is not a promise - is to create a form of group: Event Group. When anyone is involved in a localized event they are all automatically considered all “part of a group”. This way the event encounter is scaled to each individual players’ level, rewards are shared, and everyone can easily participate.

Ooh I like this idea. I remember in the old game when there was a Giant Monster or similar event, sometimes teams would have been happy to take on an additional player, but they were already at max. So if you were the x/8+1 player to the event, you were out of luck being able to get in enough damage to count for reward unless more folks turned up and you could form your own team.

Warhammer Online did these in a pretty simple but fun way. Certain locations had group events that spawned on a timer. They weren't very complex, kill mobs, do some tasks, kill a boss kind of thing; and then you got rewards based on your participation (damage done, healing done, damage taken etc.). So if you rocked up right as a group event was finishing you'd only get a tiny reward. If you kicked one off and stuck it right through you got a big reward. Because Warhammer was trinity based, I was impressed by the design, because it was well balanced for groups that weren't premade. With less than about six or seven players they were challenging but winnable without both a tank and healer but if you had a sizeable group you really needed at least one of each. CoT doesn't use the trinity so this type of thing should be a bit easier to balance.

They were both fun and a nice way to meet people. I usually found there were a few people who were up for teaming in a proper group for a while once the event was over. It made spontaneous teaming rather more organic than using a group finder/chat channel. 'These folks can fight, let's go and storm the stronghold of lord Irongroin', or whatever, seemed a pretty natural course of action for a character.

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 42 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
I still love the Control

I still love the Control Point concept that was executed reasonably well in Tabula Rasa.

There was a defended/fortified position (castle walls, etc., essentially) with interior and exterior patrols that would spawn in reinforcements when defeated, and a gate you had to break down in order to get in ... and then inside there was an object you needed to interact with for about 20 seconds without being interrupted in order to TAKE CONTROL of the Control Point.

Once you'd seized control of the Control Point, friendly forces would deploy in and around the location ... and a couple minutes later the Bane (the NPC enemy faction) would spawn in outside and mount an assault on the Control Point. Their objective was the same as the one the PCs executed in order to "win" the assault ... get to the object inside the Control Point and interact with it for 20 seconds without interruption. If the NPCs succeeded, "ownership" of the Control Point would flip back to the enemy NPCs, causing reinforcements to flood into and outside the Control Point to defend it.

So you basically had two ways to play a Control Point battle ... you were either assaulting or defending ... and the tactics in either direction for assault and defense were different, even though they were flipsides of the same coin. The odds were ALWAYS against the PC aligned faction (the AFS) because the starting ratio of Bane (enemy) to AFS (friendly) started at a 6:3 ratio (6 Bane per spawn group versus 3 AFS per spawn group) and only got WORSE from there. This was because it was possible to successfully defend a Control Point against Bane attack ... but then after a short pause, the Bane would attack AGAIN ... and in greater numbers. This turned any defense of a Control Point into a battle of attrition, because every time the PCs successfully defended a Control Point, the Bane would ratchet up the "unfairness" of numbers even further in their favor in their next attack. Eventually, it simply wasn't possible to hold out against the tsunami wave of Bane that would spawn in and begin attacking ... and the Control Point would "fall" under Bane control.

So Control Points were basically "set piece battles" in which PC actions could disturb the natural equilibrium balance in the local area for a time ... but if the PCs left or were otherwise forced out of the Control Point, the Bane would "win" and take it back. And since each Control Point featured a common set of objectives, but a DIFFERENT configuration or layout, each Control Point battle space was "unique enough" to be its own thing. There was no real greater storyline point or purpose to capturing Control Points, aside from the fact that some had Contact NPCs in them who would hand out missions ... but only while the AFS controlled the Point, which then gave you a motivation to go in and capture the place.

But Control Points were FUN to play in and around, and they were kind of the "mass battle" equivalent to Giant Monster events ... except that they were permanent features of the game, and you could try to take control of one at any time ... with or without anyone to help you. And because it took a lot of time and effort to break into a Control Point (usually), it was entirely possible that some other PC would wander by while you were making an assault or a defense and they would spontaneously decide to join the fray. It was total pickup group (without needing to party up in a group!) fun, because it was all open world stuff.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
blacke4dawn
blacke4dawn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 14 hours 53 min ago
Joined: 03/28/2015 - 03:02
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I still love the Control Point concept that was executed reasonably well in Tabula Rasa.

There was a defended/fortified position (castle walls, etc., essentially) with interior and exterior patrols that would spawn in reinforcements when defeated, and a gate you had to break down in order to get in ... and then inside there was an object you needed to interact with for about 20 seconds without being interrupted in order to TAKE CONTROL of the Control Point.

Once you'd seized control of the Control Point, friendly forces would deploy in and around the location ... and a couple minutes later the Bane (the NPC enemy faction) would spawn in outside and mount an assault on the Control Point. Their objective was the same as the one the PCs executed in order to "win" the assault ... get to the object inside the Control Point and interact with it for 20 seconds without interruption. If the NPCs succeeded, "ownership" of the Control Point would flip back to the enemy NPCs, causing reinforcements to flood into and outside the Control Point to defend it.

So you basically had two ways to play a Control Point battle ... you were either assaulting or defending ... and the tactics in either direction for assault and defense were different, even though they were flipsides of the same coin. The odds were ALWAYS against the PC aligned faction (the AFS) because the starting ratio of Bane (enemy) to AFS (friendly) started at a 6:3 ratio (6 Bane per spawn group versus 3 AFS per spawn group) and only got WORSE from there. This was because it was possible to successfully defend a Control Point against Bane attack ... but then after a short pause, the Bane would attack AGAIN ... and in greater numbers. This turned any defense of a Control Point into a battle of attrition, because every time the PCs successfully defended a Control Point, the Bane would ratchet up the "unfairness" of numbers even further in their favor in their next attack. Eventually, it simply wasn't possible to hold out against the tsunami wave of Bane that would spawn in and begin attacking ... and the Control Point would "fall" under Bane control.

So Control Points were basically "set piece battles" in which PC actions could disturb the natural equilibrium balance in the local area for a time ... but if the PCs left or were otherwise forced out of the Control Point, the Bane would "win" and take it back. And since each Control Point featured a common set of objectives, but a DIFFERENT configuration or layout, each Control Point battle space was "unique enough" to be its own thing. There was no real greater storyline point or purpose to capturing Control Points, aside from the fact that some had Contact NPCs in them who would hand out missions ... but only while the AFS controlled the Point, which then gave you a motivation to go in and capture the place.

But Control Points were FUN to play in and around, and they were kind of the "mass battle" equivalent to Giant Monster events ... except that they were permanent features of the game, and you could try to take control of one at any time ... with or without anyone to help you. And because it took a lot of time and effort to break into a Control Point (usually), it was entirely possible that some other PC would wander by while you were making an assault or a defense and they would spontaneously decide to join the fray. It was total pickup group (without needing to party up in a group!) fun, because it was all open world stuff.

While the underlying concept could work, even work well, for CoT I feel the specific implementation would need to be significantly different due to the basic play style of the game itself.

First it would probably need more time in between re-take attempts by the "enemy". The world, afaik, doesn't have that kind of pressing threat as TR had.
Second it would probably need more incentive than just quest NPC's. There are so many other things to do that I feel the main reason someone would go for these would be achievements if the only potential incentive was quest NPC's.
Third they need to be a reasonable part of the world itself. I never got that far into TR myself to seriously participate in these activities before it closed down but I get the feeling from your telling that these capture points are just "random" places on the map. Kinda relevant to point 1 but they have to make sense for the world MWM is trying to create, not something you can really have in the middle of the city I think.

The biggest hindrance/problem though is probably that players are not always on the same side of any potential conflict between two or more factions so it may not be so easy to decide which faction is one that would have the overwhelming force and thus the "long term owner" of a capture point.

TheInternetJanitor
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 05/11/2018 - 06:00
Yeah, the control point event

Yeah, the control point event would work but only as one type of public event. You wouldn't want it to be everywhere. It would also need to be used in places where the enemy in question is something players can't possibly ally with. It wouldn't work well in a cops vs gangsters situation if the players could potentially join either side.

It does sound very fun!

There are variations on that which could be really entertaining as well. The assault and defend parts alone can be fleshed out into events of their own easily enough. Fight through the hordes to touch the glowy win button and save the day, or take your time and set up defenses and traps and weather a horde for a certain amount of time tower defense style.

I would play the hell out of a superhero version of orcs must die.

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 42 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

First it would probably need more time in between re-take attempts by the "enemy". The world, afaik, doesn't have that kind of pressing threat as TR had.

That's a Tuning Issue.
How long Players would have to wait before needing to defend against an assault (or waves of assaults) would be something you'd want to hone in on through playtesting. Additionally, you'd want to scale the assault timers (and the assaults themselves?) partially upon how many PCs are participating/present in the vicinity. This means LOTS of testing iterations and tweaking to get things Just So™ for how the timers would work.

blacke4dawn wrote:

Second it would probably need more incentive than just quest NPC's. There are so many other things to do that I feel the main reason someone would go for these would be achievements if the only potential incentive was quest NPC's.

Only SOME of the Control Points in Tabula Rasa had mission giving NPCs in them. MOST did not ... and the "reward" for capturing a Control Point was mainly oriented around the Player's sense of accomplishment (and camraderie with any other Players who helped) in achieving victory. And yet, despite that direct reward incentive, plenty of people would "dive in" and join an assault or defense of a Control Point spontaneously, simply because it was a Target Rich Environment and either assaulting or defending was in and of itself a challenge. Usually the main "reward" wasn't a game mechanical one ... instead it was just the adrenaline rush (think Scrapperlock!) of either succeeding, or dying in the trying.

"I've always wanted to fight a desperate battle against incredible odds."
- a gung-ho iguana

blacke4dawn wrote:

Third they need to be a reasonable part of the world itself. I never got that far into TR myself to seriously participate in these activities before it closed down but I get the feeling from your telling that these capture points are just "random" places on the map. Kinda relevant to point 1 but they have to make sense for the world MWM is trying to create, not something you can really have in the middle of the city I think.

In Tabula Rasa, Control Points were fixed permanent locations. They didn't fade in and out of existence or have triggers to unlock them like an event. They were ALWAYS there. Because the ratio of allied versus enemy NPCs ALWAYS (always!) favored the enemy, the only real/meaningful way for a Control Point to fall to the Player's faction was for Players (usually more than one) to get involved. So they weren't so much World Events as much as they were World Features, in which Players could intervene at ANY time, and for any reason.

So they weren't random places on the map. In fact, they were marked locations on the map, so you'd always know where to go if you wanted to engage one.

To put it in terms that a City of Heroes Player would understand, if all you were doing was street sweeping, you'd find a higher density of targets at a Control Point ... both during the assault and the defense. This made such assaults and defenses more entertaining/engaging to participate in, rather than just wandering around mopping up scattered spawn groups around the map.

Trust me, Control Point battles were incredibly dynamic and fun, and had enough duration to them for there to be "flow of battle" feeling to them, both on the attack and when on the defense. Simply "cracking the gate" in order to get in made a HUGE difference for both the attackers and the defenders. But the best thing about Control Points was ... every battle FELT different ... even if everything that happened was scripted and you knew the script. There were enough variables involved that you hardly EVER felt absolutely certain about the outcome, either when assaulting or defending a Control Point. You could feel confidence, sure ... but CERTAINTY was always in short supply, because stuff could always go wrong, at which point you'd be obliged to fall back and/or respawn, regroup and either re-engage or abandon your position. Sometimes the REAL challenge was knowing when to hold 'em, and when to fold 'em ... when to walk away, and when to run.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
desviper
desviper's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 5 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/10/2014 - 00:55
Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Ardrea wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I would be pleased to have ALL content scale (upward), so I could play it with my existing characters. I'm okay if I have to grind a little bit, to qualify for the next tier of content, so I don't want it all to scale down. Facing a Named AV at low level seems 'wrong' somehow.

I agree with this. However, I understand the dev's issues with scaling things appropriately.

I really like the general sentiment in some above posts where having high level and low level activities mixing together. When, in some other games, the zones are heavily level segregated, some of the zones can end up feeling empty, and it can take away with the feeling of community.

This is one of the main draws for creating area-based events where the event is scaled to each players’ level.

One of the things I’d like to do for events - and this is not a promise - is to create a form of group: Event Group. When anyone is involved in a localized event they are all automatically considered all “part of a group”. This way the event encounter is scaled to each individual players’ level, rewards are shared, and everyone can easily participate.

Of course there are some edge cases where this can be misused and we would have to include some form of participation metrics based on the character’s level (and possibly Archetype / Specification) so we can reduce those cases.

But also don’t forget that we don’t have different servers but a single mega-server. The server will create separate maps based on map population. This should (hopefully) reduce the sense of low population in certain areas.

We will still need to have events which low level and high level players can access at the same time. And occasional other reasons content access to draw higher level players back to lower level areas every once in a while.

I’m certain that player hosted events (such as costume contests) will also bring high and low level players together. And with the mega-server structure a contest behing held can reach a wide audience.

Sounds just like the scaling during Invasion or Halloween Invasion events of yore. Rikti minions would appear same-level with no specific level given, Lets would appear yellow, etc.

It worked fairly well: they were a bit harder to kill as a low level, but didn't destroy you on the counter.

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

Avatar by MikeNovember

blacke4dawn
blacke4dawn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 14 hours 53 min ago
Joined: 03/28/2015 - 03:02
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Second it would probably need more incentive than just quest NPC's. There are so many other things to do that I feel the main reason someone would go for these would be achievements if the only potential incentive was quest NPC's.

Only SOME of the Control Points in Tabula Rasa had mission giving NPCs in them. MOST did not ... and the "reward" for capturing a Control Point was mainly oriented around the Player's sense of accomplishment (and camraderie with any other Players who helped) in achieving victory. And yet, despite that direct reward incentive, plenty of people would "dive in" and join an assault or defense of a Control Point spontaneously, simply because it was a Target Rich Environment and either assaulting or defending was in and of itself a challenge. Usually the main "reward" wasn't a game mechanical one ... instead it was just the adrenaline rush (think Scrapperlock!) of either succeeding, or dying in the trying.

Right, but the "fundamental" play style of TR was different enough that it proportionally attracted more of those kinds of players then I think CoT ever will. I don't know if the "thrill of battle" alone will be enough for the majority of players to make it worth implementing.

Redlynne wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Third they need to be a reasonable part of the world itself. I never got that far into TR myself to seriously participate in these activities before it closed down but I get the feeling from your telling that these capture points are just "random" places on the map. Kinda relevant to point 1 but they have to make sense for the world MWM is trying to create, not something you can really have in the middle of the city I think.

In Tabula Rasa, Control Points were fixed permanent locations. They didn't fade in and out of existence or have triggers to unlock them like an event. They were ALWAYS there. Because the ratio of allied versus enemy NPCs ALWAYS (always!) favored the enemy, the only real/meaningful way for a Control Point to fall to the Player's faction was for Players (usually more than one) to get involved. So they weren't so much World Events as much as they were World Features, in which Players could intervene at ANY time, and for any reason.

So they weren't random places on the map. In fact, they were marked locations on the map, so you'd always know where to go if you wanted to engage one.

Maybe expressed badly but I was not referring to them popping up here and there randomly but rather that the initial decision for their permanent location was "random". Unless you have some more info on them it sounds like those capture points had no military advantage or other "benefit" to take control of, and I'm not talking about game-mechanical ones but rather just like that they could be explained lore wise as being a choke point, high ground view point, high in resources, and so on. Something to explain why there is a capture point right there.

For capture points to make sense at all in CoT I think such "justification" would be needed, at least it would be for me to take them seriously and not just as a sanctioned power leveling spot.