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Action MMO

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Hekiryuu
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Action MMO

So something I've been enjoying is non tab targeting mmo's that many newer mmo's are embracing. It's called being an Action MMO (or semi Action mmo, in ones where there is a slight sticky targetting)

Rather than a hit/miss accuracy stat, hitting and missing is more based on did you actually hit or miss them. Look at Neverwinter for the kinda feel I'm talking about. It makes the game much more interactive, rather than just very simply Faceroll keyboard for button presses and hope for the best.

Also as my biggest qualm with Coh was running 5 trays of 10 powers per tray, and having to go crazy all over the place trying to make sure toggles were on, powers were autofiring, and i was still running crazy button macros, has there been any though in simplifying the interface, and having people build combos with powers?

Something like each time i press 1 it uses the next power in a chain, of maybe 3 or 5 that i built. Maybe i want it to zap a guy to build up some debuff 4 times before using the super ultra mega damage ball.

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Personal unofficial opinion.

Personal unofficial opinion.

Many people I know well IRL who played CoH played it precisely because they were older, non traditional MMO players, who found they could play it precisely because of the tab targeting and non twitch gaming nature. I was in that camp, but can now play some of the others after years of CoH. IMO a spiritual successor to CoH needs to maintain this tradition.

Chaining powers in one macro is a dodgy subject as it makes botting a lot easier. There needs to be some discussion as to whether macroing should be CoH style (one power activation per press), RIFT style (list of powers, execute the first one not on cooldown) or something else.

If you organised your trays sensibly and had binds to swap trays around, you rarely needed 5 trays on screen. Popmenu if you knew how to use it (I didn't) also helped.

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Yeah so-called "Action MMOs"

Yeah so-called "Action MMOs" have their place and I'm sure there are plenty of fun titles out there to choose from. I simply have no desire to see CoT become one of them.

And as far as keeping the tray/power interfaces simple that's fine. But I suspect if CoT does not become an Action MMO we won't really need a seriously upgraded "twitch-oriented" macroing system to go with it. I'm all for improvements when they make sense, but as Minotaur implied I'd rather have a game that doesn't stray too far from the basic CoH mechanics.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Sadly, you missed the earlier

Sadly, you missed the earlier debate on this topic where players widely chose the tab system over twitch mechanics.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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while I do prefer tab

while I do prefer tab targeting... I think there are a lot of other mechanics common in more "action" MMOs that SHOULD be considered for Titans (like different power activation types (charge up to activation, or maintain during activation), being able to move while attacking, area or LoS hit confirmation)

basically, there are ways to capture the more active, "action" feel of gameplay, without sacrificing the convenience and aproachability of tab-targeting...

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There is also the issue of

There is also the issue of Powers. A twitch system from what I seen has few power options. TESO for example is a twitch Action MMO. You get 5 hot keys for your abilities. A high level character on CoH could have thee or four power trays open. Heck my Warshade even with key binding for key powers had five trays open at all times.

A CoH inspired game will be about the "POWERS" and so far I don't think the twitch action mmo system offers the flexibility the Tab system does.

And like Comicsluvr said this been talked about nearly from day one of the project.

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GhostHack
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Heh, I've never viewed having

Heh, I've never viewed having more powers as a positive, so I'm not sure I'd call that a 'win', Rotten.
I've always preferred six or fewer 'click' abilities (re: non passive/toggle abilities)

but I've always been of the opinion that games should be designed to accomidate both (by enabling a system of improvement in owned powers at the cost of new ones)

basically I don't think 'getting to' have 4 trays of abilities should be a reason to keep a less action-based system... as many players dislike that aspect of more trraditional MMOs.

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I had one character that I

I had one character that I went around to get every temp power I could find. Including all three missiles from Warburg.

I normally had two or three trays open. One for click powers, one for toggles, and one for travel and temps.

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That's cool.... but some

That's cool.... but some players (specifically myself, but I know I'm not alone in this) literally recoil at that prospect. One of the things I HATED about cox, was the trays-full of powers. I can boil down everything I want into about 8 Abilities (ten if, like champs, the game has a universal passive and a 'block')
thats 1-2 toggles, 1-3 long recharge clicks, and 3-6 'regular abilities'

anything more than that, and i just start to tune the game out... it becomes 'too much' for me to care about.

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GhostHack wrote:
GhostHack wrote:

That's cool.... but some players (specifically myself, but I know I'm not alone in this) literally recoil at that prospect. One of the things I HATED about cox, was the trays-full of powers. I can boil down everything I want into about 8 Abilities (ten if, like champs, the game has a universal passive and a 'block')
thats 1-2 toggles, 1-3 long recharge clicks, and 3-6 'regular abilities'
anything more than that, and i just start to tune the game out... it becomes 'too much' for me to care about.

I suppose the beauty of the way CoH's trays worked was if you really only wanted to see like 1 or 2 trays on the screen at a time you could do that. On the other hand if you wanted 8 or 9 trays at a time you could do that too. Seemed like a workable compromise to me. *shrugs*

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I always had one tray for all

I always had one tray for all of my Single Target Attacks, one tray for all of my Area Of Effect Attacks, one tray for all of my Toggle Defenses, one tray for all of my Click Defenses, one tray for all of my Travel Powers, and one tray for all of my Temporary Powers. Made life soooooo much easier for me. And I LOVE having more than just 5 powers to pick from. If I'm only given 5 powers it's usually 3 Single Targets and 2 Area of Effects, and that just bums me out. And NO on the Action MMO Targeting style. I don't want to give up Tab Targeting. I miss that dearly in MMO's right now. Hate Twitch Mechanics.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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RottenLuck wrote:
RottenLuck wrote:

There is also the issue of Powers. A twitch system from what I seen has few power options. TESO for example is a twitch Action MMO. You get 5 hot keys for your abilities. A high level character on CoH could have thee or four power trays open. Heck my Warshade even with key binding for key powers had five trays open at all times.
A CoH inspired game will be about the "POWERS" and so far I don't think the twitch action mmo system offers the flexibility the Tab system does.
And like Comicsluvr said this been talked about nearly from day one of the project.

Yeah, but don't those games tend to not have toggles?

For attacks, I generally only needed no more than 10 keys, the other slots where temp powers (not needed), toggles, and later incarnate abilities.

My main had 4 main attacks, 1 for AOE, and possibly two clickies for defense (self heal and Strength of Will) and lost one of those when I went Scrapper (the self heal).

Even my other ATs (and I had 50s in all ATs except the Kheldians in CoH) weren't all that button extensive when it came to powers I had to decide when to use (attacks/defense), not counting toggles.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

GhostHack wrote:
That's cool.... but some players (specifically myself, but I know I'm not alone in this) literally recoil at that prospect. One of the things I HATED about cox, was the trays-full of powers. I can boil down everything I want into about 8 Abilities (ten if, like champs, the game has a universal passive and a 'block')
thats 1-2 toggles, 1-3 long recharge clicks, and 3-6 'regular abilities'
anything more than that, and i just start to tune the game out... it becomes 'too much' for me to care about.

I suppose the beauty of the way CoH's trays worked was if you really only wanted to see like 1 or 2 trays on the screen at a time you could do that. On the other hand if you wanted 8 or 9 trays at a time you could do that too. Seemed like a workable compromise to me. *shrugs*

it's not so much the visible clutter, Loth... it's more the clutter of managing all those abilities.
some combinations of powers could run quite happily using 8 or fewer powers... others not so much.

the real compromise will never be in the UI.... it would have to come from how power dynamics function (i.e. balancing the concepts of "diversity" and "strength".... so that a player could be as effective/powerful reguardless of whether they choose to be ability-diverse, or not. (as in sacrificing a power choice to improve a currently owned power beyond it's normal range, meanwhile improving the application potential of later abilities to account for greater potential potency of earlier abilities))

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I find this interesting.

I find this interesting.

World of Warcraft has had to (over the years) slowly compress/remove abilities over the years due to the feed back from the playerbase of there being "too many abilities" to use.

Also a game can have "tab targetting" and be "action based". Guild Wars 2 springs to mind here.

Hell, when you think about it, what is really the difference between WoW and CoX (apart from setting). The lack of rooting for abilties. Sure, there might be a few abilities that break if you move (ie the channelled abilities), but I bet that some people here would complain about the lack of rooting in CoT (if it happens).

Even something this small of a change would make it feel very different to how CoX was.

Does this mean that games would lack toggles? Not necessarily... although instead of toggles, they can have more passive abilities instead.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

RottenLuck wrote:
There is also the issue of Powers. A twitch system from what I seen has few power options. TESO for example is a twitch Action MMO. You get 5 hot keys for your abilities. A high level character on CoH could have thee or four power trays open. Heck my Warshade even with key binding for key powers had five trays open at all times.
A CoH inspired game will be about the "POWERS" and so far I don't think the twitch action mmo system offers the flexibility the Tab system does.
And like Comicsluvr said this been talked about nearly from day one of the project.

Yeah, but don't those games tend to not have toggles?
For attacks, I generally only needed no more than 10 keys, the other slots where temp powers (not needed), toggles, and later incarnate abilities.
My main had 4 main attacks, 1 for AOE, and possibly two clickies for defense (self heal and Strength of Will) and lost one of those when I went Scrapper (the self heal).
Even my other ATs (and I had 50s in all ATs except the Kheldians in CoH) weren't all that button extensive when it came to powers I had to decide when to use (attacks/defense), not counting toggles.

I will say the ones I played. No. Thought I only had experience in two MMOs with twitch system.

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Even CoH had a few powerset

Even CoH had a few powerset combos that 'required' too many buttons.

1 through 6 plus Alt-1 through 6, plus... Gah! Stick them in at random! Fiery Aura and Dual Blades was too much, particularly when you added in Temp Powers.

I eventually found a way, but I spawned a ton of debate with this picture on the CoH Tanker Forums.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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I think the choices is beyond

I think the choices is beyond either two choices of traditional or it has to be pure twitch to be considered action gameplay. I think you can have TAB target and action oriented combat system at the same time.

Sometimes I wonder what would it had been like if say the numbers of toggles were cut down and instead of taking up space in the tray were simply, on when you chose the power. Not saying that would work for every power. I'm approaching this in beyond the on or off light switch way. More like a light with the dimming feature.

The RNG roll thing got annoying at times to me. Keywords to not miss- To me. Slowed down combat. Sure some may like it like that, the RNG thing. And I suspect some sort of RNG roll thing will be needed if there will be an actual dodge (enemy miss attack) mechanism.

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I'm a fan of fewer powers

I'm a fan of fewer powers with differing effects for the DPS table differential. When degree variance and diceroll variance are in the equation it makes player style as important as build style.

Tap, Charge, Maintain*, Full charge (with some tangible benefit on the full charge so that every power doesn't become "tap spam" or easily botted)

I generally don't like everything to have a cooldown. Something I greatly favored in CO when compared to how I played CoH. I know that it's also one of many CoH players main compaint about CO is that "you just spam one power" (which I never did) but with some smart casting rules you can avoid the "spam one power" issue that CO has.

*Edit: Added Maintain
- -

I hate all vector targeting in a game where players can utilize the Z axis (flyers). It just never makes sense unless there is isometric 3d with caps on the Z axis use which I do not want. I love it in Marvel Heroes but it's something I want to avoid in this game.

Secondly there's the issue of ground melee and flight range to consider.. I hope the devs have tangible penalties (like fall damage etc) for flyers who use the Z axis. Too many times powers are coded for a circular plane instead of a spherical space. Its a coding issue that was prevalent in CoH and CO so here's hoping this has been dealt with in CoT

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Even CoH had a few powerset combos that 'required' too many buttons.
1 through 6 plus Alt-1 through 6, plus... Gah! Stick them in at random! Fiery Aura and Dual Blades was too much, particularly when you added in Temp Powers.
I eventually found a way, but I spawned a ton of debate with this picture on the CoH Tanker Forums.
Be Well!
Fireheart

That's multiple temp powers, none needed when in combat. That's rest, which I according to the forums many took off their tray after a certain point, and back to toggles.

My 4 attacks, 1 AOE, was a Dual Blades Scrapper. And going back to Dual Blade Scrapper, grabbing all the attacks for every combo was more of you're own doing, especially when It was realized Dual Blades first two combos sucked and weren't needed late game., the AOE knockdown was just somewhat handy.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I'm a fan of fewer powers with differing effects for the DPS table differential. When degree variance and diceroll variance are in the equation it makes player style as important as build style.
Tap, Charge, Full charge (with some tangible benefit on the full charge so that every power doesn't become "tap spam" or easily botted)
I generally don't like everything to have a cooldown. Something I greatly favored in CO when compared to how I played CoH. I know that it's also one of many CoH players main compaint about CO is that "you just spam one power" (which I never did) but with some smart casting rules you can avoid the "spam one power" issue that CO has.
- -

Indeed.

The everything have cool down thing got a bit monotonous after a bit. And with no RNG deciding if it's going to be your lucky day or you will be whiffing constantly in CO to worry about either, I like the combat set up there.

And yeah I do not spam one attack either. Actually truthfully I haven't seem many people actually do it either myself.. One or two, but usually were level 10 or below.

And the tap, charge or full power thing is also a nice touch too.

*All IMO.*

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Why not give us both options

Why not give us both options being a console player I love the ease of action mmos. I personally like DCUO's take with actions for your weapons being the mouse click and powers being tabs. You are going to be catering to alot of new players doesn't make sense to choose one over the other. Me personally I found working the tabs in CoH a pain in the rear and took time for me to get used to best option is to add both and not alienate anybody.

"In the end there can be only one" The Highlander

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Gideon Cross wrote:
Gideon Cross wrote:

Why not give us both options being a console player I love the ease of action mmos. I personally like DCUO's take with actions for your weapons being the mouse click and powers being tabs. You are going to be catering to alot of new players doesn't make sense to choose one over the other. Me personally I found working the tabs in CoH a pain in the rear and took time for me to get used to best option is to add both and not alienate anybody.

indeed. would be good idea.

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I think the biggest problem

I think the biggest problem with the "both" option is that combat would need to function differently between the two ("twitch" combat has to have the ability to literally miss, and likewise needs to be able to "hit" unintended targets (meaning attacks must be physical objects in the game world, traveling through space). while tab targeting combat needs to randomly miss, and is only a pass/fail interaction on the target (meaning it's all behind the scenes math, with no "physics" to worry about))

...might be resource prohibitive (both in development, and final code-wise)

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Oh dear Gawd! I HATED the

Oh dear Gawd! I HATED the clickfest of DCUO! That's one of the reasons I stopped playing it. click, click, hold click, click, click, click, hold click, click, hold click, click, click, click, click.......not to mention having to do it between both the right AND left mouse buttons.

NO THANK YOU!!

If you put your powers in a proper order on your tray in CoH you didn't have to worry about the cool down. You'd activate them in a timely order and when you got back around to the first one it was recharged already and ready for you to proceed to the next powers.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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I see nothing wrong with

I see nothing wrong with powers that use some other mechanic (maintain, "charge") not having a cool down...

...but I agree, the CO/DCU use of "spam powers" is just bad juju.
heck, I'd love to get rid of COX's "punch" ability, too...

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

My 4 attacks, 1 AOE, was a Dual Blades Scrapper. And going back to Dual Blade Scrapper, grabbing all the attacks for every combo was more of you're own doing, especially when It was realized Dual Blades first two combos sucked and weren't needed late game., the AOE knockdown was just somewhat handy.

Yeah, but Tankers didn't get that choice. We had to take everything.

Be Well!
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Twitch games place a bigger

Twitch games place a bigger burden on the servers (they need to be more responsive and can not fudge things if the server get busy), require a much more expensive network connection (can't have packets being delayed or arriving out of sync), and they put more strain on the player. They also require a much better computer and internet connection on the player side.
If the twitch time is set so low that these are not an issue you might as well go with tab targeting as there is no real functional difference between them anymore then, if it is high enough to matter then you appeal to a different audience, that is currently served with DCUO and similar games.
-
As an alternative, or compromise, we can make a small change to a function that the server needs to run on every attack check anyway: range and line of sight.
Traditionally (because of computer limitations when MMOs were first conceived) this is a pretty basic yes/no test, and in many cases the game chooses to forgo the line of sight test entirely or simplify it to cursory directional vector test. (A full LOS would require intersection calculations with all bounding boxes, similar to doing a full shadow projection with the eye as the light source). This is way so often the game allows you to shoot through objects at times and claims you can not 'see' the target despite it being clearly visible on screen.
By creating a modifier to the RNG based on the percentage deviation from the optimal distance and LOS players have some control over their accuracy (reducing the influence of the RNG) without forcing players into a twitch play style. You can still shoot at targets sideways, you will simply miss somewhat more often. This would even allow a 'mastery' property that extends the range of the allowed deviation before the negative effects kick in (or more technically, where the positive effects kick in), so players can actually train to be 'good' at shooting sideways if they so desire (for coolness factor of course).

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Nadira raised the issue that

Nadira raised the issue that often irritates me with when playing an action-based MMO: lag/latency. In WoW I was perfectly capable of participating in raids with an average ping of 300 ms to 350 ms. When I was out questing I could even compensate for ping up to the 500 ms to 600 ms range although, as you may imagine, it was not an ideal play experience. When I mess around in Tera, I can feel it if the latency rises above 200 ms* and any kind of lag or stutter can totally throw me off my rhythm.

* My average latency in Tera is around 125 ms, which is twice the latency I experienced when playing SW:TOR. I presume that their infrastructure is not what it could be.

- - - - -
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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Nadira raised the issue that often irritates me with when playing an action-based MMO: lag/latency. In WoW I was perfectly capable of participating in raids with an average ping of 300 ms to 350 ms. When I was out questing I could even compensate for ping up to the 500 ms to 600 ms range although, as you may imagine, it was not an ideal play experience. When I mess around in Tera, I can feel it if the latency rises above 200 ms* and any kind of lag or stutter can totally throw me off my rhythm.
* My average latency in Tera is around 125 ms, which is twice the latency I experienced when playing SW:TOR. I presume that their infrastructure is not what it could be.

When people say "twitch" gaming, are they referring to the FPS style of gameplay (where you have to aim properly) the "I can move whilst attacking" gameplay.

Because as soon as it gets brought up, we here people going "dont like that style, its twitch"... when another game which they don't view as twitch HAS that same style.

Clarification 100% here.

If you have to aim with a reticle to hit a mob, that is more FPS style of game play. Which I will admit is more twitch.

However, having to face mobs to be able to attack them is NOT a sign of "twitch" gameplay.

Oh, and as a point of interest out there: Final Fantasy 14 won the "AbleGamers accessible mainstream game of the year 2013"

And it is more "twitchy" than CoX ever was.

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To me, the difference between

To me, the difference between a role playing game (which is what CoT is supposed to be) and a first person shooter (like say, Doom, Quake, etc) is the randomized roll to hit mechanic. I think when you get right down to it, aside from some technological niceties and quality of life stuff, the basic difference is that a FPS requires/rewards skill and strategy in moving and aiming properly and an RPG doesn't. I know the randomness bothers some people (you're right in front of a guy, you click to shoot, and it says "MISS!" and you go "WHAT?!?! IT WAS POINT-BLANK RANGE!") but it's been a staple of RPGs from the beginning.

To put it in simplest terms, I want my City of Heroes back, not City of Doom.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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I tend to agree, Radiac.

I tend to agree, Radiac.

in an RPG you're taking on a role... i.e. it is all about what your character can do.
in an Action game, you're given a limited set of tools, and it's up to you to acomplish the task.... i.e. it's all about your "twitch" skill.

an Action RPG is generally an action game with more story or 'character growth' (i.e. access to greater pool of abilities), with gear used to gate content, similar to an RPG.... but it's still about your skill as a player.

Personally, As long as developers are upfront at the begining, I have no problem with either style... however, this is a Spiritual Successor to an RPG, not an Action game... and as such, while I hope that the game FEELS "actiony", I do not want my success to be based on my ability to manipulate the controls in a "twitch" manner.

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But that doesn't mean that

But that doesn't mean that you cannot move out of the way of the "big attacks" to avoid them. That doesn't mean that you have to stand there whilst being attacked either.

RPG involves a dice roll? Fair enough.

Guild Wars 2, Wildstar, Final Fantasy 14 do this.

You can build up your stats so that you get hit less often/take less damage/whatever. Hell, they might even include the dreaded "white damage" (which is auto attack damage), so that as long as you are attacking them, you are getting attacked BACK.

This however does not prevent them from using large attacks where "if you can move out the way" you can avoid most/all the damage.

*shrugs*

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1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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People didn't use the

People didn't use the facilities available to them in CoH to reduce the number of trays they need. For example once toggles didn't drop with mez, you could fire up the toggles at the beginning of a session, then swap that tray out, or not put the powers in trays at all. IIRC even if you didn't popmenu your toggles, you could have a macro that would turn all your toggles on. It wouldn't actually turn them all on, but it would turn one on, skipping ones that were already on, so you just hit the bound key several times.

I'm getting quite fed up in NW with being hit by attacks when I'm clearly standing outside the effect on the ground, being interrupted when I got my attack off clearly first (both latency effects and mine is actually not too bad) and being unable to target stuff because I'm blocked by an environment feature that is almost imperceptible (minor ground unevenness or a 1/2" wide pole). Tab targeting seems a good idea atm.

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I played CoH regularly and

I played CoH regularly and almost exclusively from around i12 until close, occasionally flirting with other MMO's. Since then I've played DCUO and Champs more steadily as my only fixes for my Superhero jones. I agree with the "too many clicks" view about DCUO, but as a primarily solo-ish game, the "dodge" mechanic isn't too bad. I think it would have been a problem in CoH's large team milieu.

However, I"ve come to like the hybrid/compromise of Champions. While I'd dump the cool-downs on everything (especially heals, dangit) and the necessity of an "Energy Builder" power (that you're basically spamming while waiting for your cooldowns), I do like the addition of a "block" mechanic. (I have mine mapped to a side button on my mouse) I also like the "tap/charge/maintain".

These two mechanics together give me a more "participatory" feel, without wildly scrambling around for targets or trying to find my reticule in the midst of all the FX. For the record, I don't use the Tab for targeting. But if I'm not actively pointing and clicking on my target, like in a big melee mob, I'm happy to let auto-target take over.

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Minotaur wrote:
Minotaur wrote:

I'm getting quite fed up in NW with being hit by attacks when I'm clearly standing outside the effect on the ground, being interrupted when I got my attack off clearly first (both latency effects and mine is actually not too bad) and being unable to target stuff because I'm blocked by an environment feature that is almost imperceptible (minor ground unevenness or a 1/2" wide pole). Tab targeting seems a good idea atm.

And stuff like that happened to me in CoX as well....

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

But that doesn't mean that you cannot move out of the way of the "big attacks" to avoid them. That doesn't mean that you have to stand there whilst being attacked either.
RPG involves a dice roll? Fair enough.
Guild Wars 2, Wildstar, Final Fantasy 14 do this.
You can build up your stats so that you get hit less often/take less damage/whatever. Hell, they might even include the dreaded "white damage" (which is auto attack damage), so that as long as you are attacking them, you are getting attacked BACK.
This however does not prevent them from using large attacks where "if you can move out the way" you can avoid most/all the damage.
*shrugs*

Pretty sure I never refuted any of these things.... not sure what you're trying to argue here....

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GhostHack wrote:
GhostHack wrote:

Gangrel wrote:
But that doesn't mean that you cannot move out of the way of the "big attacks" to avoid them. That doesn't mean that you have to stand there whilst being attacked either.
RPG involves a dice roll? Fair enough.
Guild Wars 2, Wildstar, Final Fantasy 14 do this.
You can build up your stats so that you get hit less often/take less damage/whatever. Hell, they might even include the dreaded "white damage" (which is auto attack damage), so that as long as you are attacking them, you are getting attacked BACK.
This however does not prevent them from using large attacks where "if you can move out the way" you can avoid most/all the damage.
*shrugs*

Pretty sure I never refuted any of these things.... not sure what you're trying to argue here....

Twas a general reply, not specifically aimed at you, although you did give a nice bounce point though to work from.

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1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

I played CoH regularly and almost exclusively from around i12 until close, occasionally flirting with other MMO's. Since then I've played DCUO and Champs more steadily as my only fixes for my Superhero jones. I agree with the "too many clicks" view about DCUO, but as a primarily solo-ish game, the "dodge" mechanic isn't too bad. I think it would have been a problem in CoH's large team milieu.
However, I"ve come to like the hybrid/compromise of Champions. While I'd dump the cool-downs on everything (especially heals, dangit) and the necessity of an "Energy Builder" power (that you're basically spamming while waiting for your cooldowns), I do like the addition of a "block" mechanic. (I have mine mapped to a side button on my mouse) I also like the "tap/charge/maintain".
These two mechanics together give me a more "participatory" feel, without wildly scrambling around for targets or trying to find my reticule in the midst of all the FX. For the record, I don't use the Tab for targeting. But if I'm not actively pointing and clicking on my target, like in a big melee mob, I'm happy to let auto-target take over.

CO's Energy Builder is a lot like CoH's Brawl. Once you get high enough level (not level 40) you really shouldn't be relying on it at all.

I know after a while, I don't even toggle it on.

The problem I have with maintains in CO, is generally those are the best abilities and once you have them, you just spam that one abiltity.

Even now in CO after a retconned out of Dual Pistols for a Martial Arts/Chain build, I rely on pretty much 2 ST attacks and 1 AOE, and one of those ST attacks is a combo attack. :/

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I hope energy maintenance is

I hope energy maintenance is not based on an "energy builder" mechanic. This was a huge step backwards in game design for me and all it did was encourage players to trivialize the energy maintenance mechanic of combat (of which MANY powers were originally designed with energy maintenance in mind).

I want an energy pool that has a refresh rate (based on whatever combat factors the game uses) and players choices to reflect their minding that. I remember in the launch months of Champions it was so rewarding to launch a full blast of their stongest attack (Force Cascade) and it was even HARDER to combo it with their Force Spate power.. it took EVERYTHING you had because it was that amazing. I hope that the combat database keeps energy maintenance in mind when creating frameworks because once it becomes a trivial mechanic so many balance issues come.

- -

As for maintains, I think the idea is that they should be a good "mild" some spice but not alot. There should be definite tangible advantages to using a fully charged blast over a maintain. Also maintains usually get away with having very low activation time because of their constant nature.. I do not think a maintain should activate as quickly as a tap/click power but it should definitely activate faster than a charged blast.

As long as the systems designer takes ALL the factors into account (energy, magnitude, chance, #ofTargets, range Cast time, Activation Time, and possible cooldown) then Charged/Maintained Powers can provide a robust combat system where the exact same build can be PLAYED two different ways, each effective in their own playstyle**.

I say that and say that every build should be effective in their playstyle. Players should still expect uniform casting rules for example pet casters often require the full spell to cast before it takes effect and players should expect that to stay consistent for pet powers. In most games Crowd Control ALWAYS has a cooldown (tapped or full blast), players should expect that to continue. Long ranged (100m+) powers are often not mobile casts while all Melee casts should be mobile. Mid ranged attacks should have "slowing" attached to them IMO.. but without going into the specifics, players should expect the powers database to be consistent. Doing so will likely be seen by some as "homogenization" but the sheer number of variance in playstyle (Energy costs, Different effects like knocks, mez, bleeding etc as well as crit and miss chance as well as cast time choice as well as possible cooldown) more than make up for the argument that all the powers are "too similar" because of the incalculable variations you can make between frameworks.

**A side note that also in Champions Online they ATTEMPTED (failed) to have Heavy Weapons and Might require longer charge time for greater benefit so the player could "feel" the "weight" of the actions in combat. I liked this in their initial representation (before On Alert biensure) but think that especially in a game where you're going to have multiple animations for the same framework I'm interested to see how the "fast paced" actions (martial arts etc) work when being charged. Players need a visual tell to know the power's been activated but sometimes this just looks stupid in animations (Burning Chi Fist) that are meant to be fast paced . I hope the animation team keeps this in mind when creating their animation sets (especially for melee)

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Not related to twitch per se

Not related to twitch per se but I hate having gazillion toggles when I feel there are much better solutions i.e. have a single toggle power with others being upgrades to it or have a single toggle and the rest as passives. Toggle powers that end up being mandatory such as tanker toggles are a major annoyance if they are a separate power.

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Hell, when you think about it, what is really the difference between WoW and CoX (apart from setting). The lack of rooting for abilties. Sure, there might be a few abilities that break if you move (ie the channelled abilities), but I bet that some people here would complain about the lack of rooting in CoT (if it happens).

I think that we still need rooting, but it should be on a power-by-power basis for thematic reasons, not applied gamewide simply because it's annoying and fiddly to fix a problem properly. For example, Snipe attacks, where a character is trading mobility for range and accuracy, or abilities that are specifically defined as locking you in place.

GhostHack wrote:

I think the biggest problem with the "both" option is that combat would need to function differently between the two ("twitch" combat has to have the ability to literally miss, and likewise needs to be able to "hit" unintended targets (meaning attacks must be physical objects in the game world, traveling through space). while tab targeting combat needs to randomly miss, and is only a pass/fail interaction on the target (meaning it's all behind the scenes math, with no "physics" to worry about))

And 'twitch' targeting also runs into odd unintended problems -- for example, something that I ran into with my Masterminds was that it was possible to have one of my pets standing behind me, out of my field of view on my computer screen, but which had a 'target box' that could intercept mouse clicks; I would click on a hostile mob in front of me and target my pet behind me (this also sometimes happened with a hostile mob behind me, but in that situation it was rarely inconvenient).

Darth Fez wrote:

Nadira raised the issue that often irritates me with when playing an action-based MMO: lag/latency. In WoW I was perfectly capable of participating in raids with an average ping of 300 ms to 350 ms. When I was out questing I could even compensate for ping up to the 500 ms to 600 ms range although, as you may imagine, it was not an ideal play experience. When I mess around in Tera, I can feel it if the latency rises above 200 ms and any kind of lag or stutter can totally throw me off my rhythm

My first 'MMO' was what would now be called an MMOBA -- SVGA Air Warrior on the GEnie service, which I connected to via dialup, a WWII air-combat simulation. When I started playing the game, it relied on a two-tier system for determining whether your shooting hit your target -- when you shot at the planes you saw in your client, it would send a timestamped packet to the server, which would check its record of where your rounds were flying and the position of the plane you were shooting at, and if your rounds passed through a 'hit bubble' around your target, it would treat it as a hit. The game would also display your 'D' value, which was a number that indicated how much what you saw in your client lagged the actual positions on the client. A good connection for me at the time had a 'D' value of 15, which meant that what I was seeing was 15 seconds in the past... and that it was pretty pointless for me to be shooting at any moving target. Accordingly, I became a buff driver; in a bomber, I would let my squadmates with good connections handle flying cover for me, and the ground didn't move, so being accurate while bombing was just a matter of being fiddly precise with the bombsight.

Eventually, I was able to get a better connection, and online games migrated to the Internet, and with reduced latency, hit determination became more directly 'did you hit your target' based, but since getting beaten over the head with a twenty-pound sledgehammer by it I've been painfully aware of how much small changes in latency can jerk you over badly in any real-time twitch-based game -- and only a tiny fraction of the things that will hose your latency are in a part of your connection to the server that you can do anything about.

Radiac wrote:

To me, the difference between a role playing game (which is what CoT is supposed to be) and a first person shooter (like say, Doom, Quake, etc) is the randomized roll to hit mechanic. I think when you get right down to it, aside from some technological niceties and quality of life stuff, the basic difference is that a FPS requires/rewards skill and strategy in moving and aiming properly and an RPG doesn't. I know the randomness bothers some people (you're right in front of a guy, you click to shoot, and it says "MISS!" and you go "WHAT?!?! IT WAS POINT-BLANK RANGE!") but it's been a staple of RPGs from the beginning.

As an alternative to replicating the basic ranged-combat mechanics from CHCS -- and recognizing that when you fire at someone, the projectile doesn't magically stop or disappear when it hits the maximum range of the power (at least, for most things) -- perhaps it would be better to give ranged attacks two ranges -- a theoretical maximum range (i.e., how far is it capable of going), and its effective range. At its effective range, you would have the base chance to hit, which woud increase with decreasing range and decreases more rapidly beyond the effective range, so that you'd be much less likely to miss a target that's up in your face, but (for example) an SR Scrapper with Elude up will still be difficult to hit, and you could make 'Hail Mary' shots at extreme ranges.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

To me, the difference between a role playing game (which is what CoT is supposed to be) and a first person shooter (like say, Doom, Quake, etc) is the randomized roll to hit mechanic. I think when you get right down to it, aside from some technological niceties and quality of life stuff, the basic difference is that a FPS requires/rewards skill and strategy in moving and aiming properly and an RPG doesn't. I know the randomness bothers some people (you're right in front of a guy, you click to shoot, and it says "MISS!" and you go "WHAT?!?! IT WAS POINT-BLANK RANGE!") but it's been a staple of RPGs from the beginning.
To put it in simplest terms, I want my City of Heroes back, not City of Doom.

Well the hit role might be a staple, like many things were that came and gone, like gear affect appearance stuff, but I think there is more that separates a RPG from FPS than hit roll. For example, CO hardly have hit roll, I think maybe for a few powers in the ammo set, the ninja star throwing thing, and dodge chance ticker but for the most part there is not much hit roll, yet it's still not a FPS and it's RPG by definition without the staple of being heavily randomized hit roll depended staple. And it's not twitch based.

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Quote:
Quote:

I think that we still need rooting, but it should be on a power-by-power basis for thematic reasons, not applied gamewide simply because it's annoying and fiddly to fix a problem properly. For example, Snipe attacks, where a character is trading mobility for range and accuracy, or abilities that are specifically defined as locking you in place.

That is the kind of thing that I am thinking about, with *some* abilities forcing you to stay in one place whilst it winds up. Sure, if you move, it interrupts the casting of it... but it wont *force* you to stay in one place.

Yep, its slightly different to what you are talking about, but the net end result is better overall (in my mind).

What this means as well, is that if you have a long "wind up ability", and you get an AOE or something dropped on you, you are at least able to "get out the way". Sure, it means that you have to start it again when you stop moving, but it prevents the problem that happened in Keyes Reactor (the Long animation+ hard hitting AOE dropping on you *As* you start casting it).

In my mind, there is a difference between Channelled spells and "Snipe" style... Channelled will have an effect as *soon* as it starts casting, and carry on with the effect until you start moving (or its duration ends), whilst a snipe has everything back loaded.

Now saying that, you can have channelled abilities that you can still move and cast with... and that can be another balancing point for it.

Infact, the whole "mobility" part of it can be a balancing point as well...

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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I can really go both ways. Im

I can really go both ways. Im loving the action MMO and i understand and agree with the tab targeting and getting the most of the player base.

I do however believe we need other play styles for the public that likes the twitch mechanic. So i do hope that there is some incorporation of a twitch type style that still uses our dodge and acc stats.

Reminder, im kinda neutral on this subject because i swing both ways ;)

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Minotaur wrote:
I'm getting quite fed up in NW with being hit by attacks when I'm clearly standing outside the effect on the ground, being interrupted when I got my attack off clearly first (both latency effects and mine is actually not too bad) and being unable to target stuff because I'm blocked by an environment feature that is almost imperceptible (minor ground unevenness or a 1/2" wide pole). Tab targeting seems a good idea atm.

And stuff like that happened to me in CoX as well....

At the similar level of latency I had in CoH, I never came across those problems (yes the pink patches in some of the later stuff being discs rather than following the ground was a cockup, but that was something else) and CoH didn't have a lot of interruptible attacks. Tab targeting was almost never blocked.

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This topic has been covered

This topic has been covered in depth elsewhere, so I won't repeat all the reasons I'm in the "make it like CoX" camp, but there is one new facet here: the comment regarding having fewer powers.

Question: if your character has only a small handful of powers in other games, what sort of reward do you get at levels where new powers are not granted? Just minor improvements in those powers, like the enh-only levels in CoX?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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There were actually 10 trays,

There were actually 10 trays, but you only got to see 3 of them at a time unless you did something in the options. Even then, you could press the little arrows to make tray 3 tray 4 for a sec, toggle something on, then go back if needed. I was a button clicker (by that I mean I actually activated my powers by clicking on the power icons in the trays, not by making excessive numbers of macros and binds) for the most part and never had any huge issues with this, at least not in the last year or so of CoX, by which point they had gotten it pretty tight. Also, you totally bind Fly to the "F" key, teleport to the "T" key and Superspeed to the"R" key. You set Hasten to auto-recast itself whenever available. That's 4 powers you don't need tray space for right there. Then there are inherent powers that are always on and never need anything, like Health. I only needed to manage trays when I got Incarnate powers and started going on iTrials, because a lot of temp powers etc didn't work in iTrials, so you had to rearrange stuff. Even then it was easy enough to make trays 1-4 the "normal layout" and trays 6-9 the "iTrail configuration". The pain was when you'd respec and have to redo everything.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

This topic has been covered in depth elsewhere, so I won't repeat all the reasons I'm in the "make it like CoX" camp, but there is one new facet here: the comment regarding having fewer powers.
Question: if your character has only a small handful of powers in other games, what sort of reward do you get at levels where new powers are not granted? Just minor improvements in those powers, like the enh-only levels in CoX?

All depends on the game. For example in Guild Wars 2, you get trait points, which can add (depends on skill/class) more damage, bonus effects onto the skills that you can unlock.

Skills are not automatically awarded for levelling up, you purchase them instead (with skill points, which you get via levelling/completing challenges in the map/find the skill shrine in the area...).

Wildstar on the flip side, when you level up, you AMP points and "Ability points". Ability points are more of the basic "power increase", although once you get to Tier 4 or 8, they also have an additional point. AMPs are more passive (although some abilities are only available via AMPs), and they allow you to further customise your character on top.

ie for a warrior, you can have a small combat regen whilst in combat (at the top of this tier tree, it spreads to others in range), more resistance, more shield bonus etc etc.

Wildstar however allows you to quickly and easily change your Skill point layout *whenever* you are not in combat. Dont need as many points in tanking skills? Swap them over to the damage skills instead. Multiple builds are also available (unlock them as you level up.. i believe you can have 4 builds saved at any one point in time).

Sure, the spending of amp points is more permanent, but I like being able to quickly test out just different skill combinations without worrying about screwing up my "build" too severely.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Thanks for the info, Gangrel.

Thanks for the info, Gangrel.

While I learned to live with the non-power level-ups in CoX once I really got to understand the system and wished to tweak my abilities, I have to say after 7 years I was always somewhat disappointed when I realised that the level I just achieved did not grant a new power. The plethora of powers -- and the expanded choices they offered in combat -- was actually one of my favourite things about the game. I think a smaller number would make me sad and make the majority of xp levels seem anaemic.

One thing I'd really dread would be a MMO that gave characters just 5 powers that were pretty much the same for every power set.

Spurn all ye kindle.