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3d Avatar Models Issues

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Huckleberry
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3d Avatar Models Issues

MWM has stated already in several places that they are aware of issues with the 3D models. They cite upper arms especially. But there is one issue I haven't seen anyone mention and I feel if I don't mention it, it may not be looked at. I am referring to the muscles around the ribcage; specifically, the Serratus Anterior.

Let me explain.

Right now the 3D models have a ribcage that looks like this:

In the above image all sliders are at their default setting except for breast size, which I've reduced so we can see the ribcage.

A student of anatomy would be able to tell you that our rib cages actually do get narrower towards the top:

Bot notice where the widest part of the ribcage is in a human and then look to see where it is on the models.

But that's just the bones. Outside the bones are a whole slew of muscles used to stabilize and strengthen not just our torsos but also our shoulders. Among these muscles are the External Obliques and the the Serratus Anterior.

And they give a thickness to the upper torso that just isn't present in the 3D models.

I'm sure there are other issues that might be obvious to some others. I think it would be a good idea to record your suggestions in one place, rather than scattered across all the forum threads, Discord, PM, youtube, etc., etc. So I've started this thread in case anyone else has some observations they don't want forgotten.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Lothic
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I certainly agree there are a

I certainly agree there are a number of things that can be improved with both the current male and female body models in this game.

Maybe to solve the particular issue you mentioned with the rib cage we need another slider control that runs from armpit to armpit. This slider would basically be like the "shoulder width" slider but located a bit lower though the chest. With this slider we might be able to compensate for the slightly weird default position of the model's rib cages. By adjusting both the shoulder and 'armpit' sliders you could better control the overall look of a character's upper torso.

We probably also need an actual hip width slider. I highlight 'actual' because the current hip width slider is more of a "thigh gap" slider. It adjusts the distance between the upper legs, not the width of the pelvic bone. We basically need a new additional slider placed between the current "WaistSize" slider and the current "Hip Width" that would actually adjust the width of the pelvis. The current slider that's labelled "Hip Width" could be renamed to be something like "Leg Width".

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Redlynne
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Right now the 3D models have a ribcage that looks like this:

I'm going to classify this as "vaguely human but not really" for ease of reference.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Fireheart
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

The current slider that's labeled "Hip Width" could be renamed to be something like "Leg Width".

Well, or 'Crotch Width', but perhaps 'Leg Spacing' would be better. Hips are part of the Pelvis, so we might need a 'Pelvis Width' slider. We could certainly have a 'Chest' slider with effects separate from a 'Breast' slider. I remember how one character of mine in TOG had a definite case of 'Tanker Torso', appropriately, since he was a Tanker.

Huckleberry's point about how much of the volume of a human torso is Muscles, bridging the gaps between bones, is entirely correct. As a professional massage therapist, I have put my hands on that volume and manipulated it, as well as studying Anatomy. Along with the Serratus, we need to pay attention to the Pectorals in the anterior (front) and the way Trapesius shapes the posterior (back) sections of the upper torso. Those two heavy 'wedges' of muscles are suspended from the shoulders, covering and connecting through the 'open' spaces above the upper rib cage, anchoring in the spine and sternum.

Don't make me get out the 'visible man' pictures! It's too much like the 'before' of your last barbecue, to be comfortable with.

All of this sliding/swiveling space and muscle-mass, so that your favorite player can hit a home run.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Lothic
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:
Lothic wrote:

The current slider that's labeled "Hip Width" could be renamed to be something like "Leg Width".

Well, or 'Crotch Width', but perhaps 'Leg Spacing' would be better. Hips are part of the Pelvis, so we might need a 'Pelvis Width' slider.

Sure the sliders can be named whatever makes the most sense. It'd probably be better to name it "Leg Spacing" since I get the feeling MWM would not be inclined to let the word "Crotch" appear in their Avatar Builder GUI even if its use was relatively benign.

Fireheart wrote:

Huckleberry's point about how much of the volume of a human torso is Muscles, bridging the gaps between bones, is entirely correct. As a professional massage therapist, I have put my hands on that volume and manipulated it, as well as studying Anatomy. Along with the Serratus, we need to pay attention to the Pectorals in the anterior (front) and the way Trapesius shapes the posterior (back) sections of the upper torso. Those two heavy 'wedges' of muscles are suspended from the shoulders, covering and connecting through ther 'open' spaces above the upper rib cage, anchoring in the spine and sternum.

It'd be great if body model creators (in general, not just the folks at MWM) had the kind of in-depth knowledge of human anatomy you obviously have. I'm sure some of them do but I'd assume most don't.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Terwyn
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

It'd be great if body model creators (in general, not just the folks at MWM) had the kind of in-depth knowledge of human anatomy you obviously have. I'm sure some of them do but I'd assume most don't.

I'm happy to say that to my knowledge, there are a significant number of people going through the various visual arts programs (especially game design) at Sheridan who make regular use of a 19th century medical text which is still the global standard of anatomy. I myself have a copy of Gray's Anatomy, although for decidedly different reasons. So that knowledge is spreading, if slowly.

It is only when we stand up, with all our failings and sufferings, and try to support others rather than withdraw into ourselves, that we can fully live the life of community.

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Fireheart
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The best way of thinking

The best way of thinking about this is YOU Have Anatomy, so pay attention and feel it for yourself. :)

Pictures can help you figure out what's there. The 'Visible Man' project, where they literally froze a dead guy and used a saw to deli-slice him into pages... It has inherent 'woogieness', but it's Fascinating.

Be Well!
Fireheart

warlocc
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

and feel it for yourself

Don't go giving us any ideas.

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Fireheart
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I thought we were talking

I thought we were talking about torsos.

Slan
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I suspect that the model

I suspect that the model anatomy is fine. What this looks like, particularly on the female model, is that the bones in the arms are influencing the mesh on the sides of the torso. If the model was rigged in a standard T pose and wasn't properly weighted, then dropping them down to the sides may push the sides of the body inside where the ribcage would be. I could also see this as being a compromise between having part of the body being visible deformed when naked, and preventing costume assets that will go on top of the base mesh clipping through each other.